Starsailor
Banned
I don't like where this thread is going
Nintendo Removes Controversial Fire Emblem Fates Conversation
- Thread starter Tom Nook Sawyer
- Start date
I don't like where this thread is going
There an argument to be made about the game was designed and balanaced, and how Classic/Casual does nothing to change the balance of the game despite removing the permadeath punishment. Because both modes play out the same, did they make it easier just to appease the classic side, or did they make it harder than it should be to counter act the new casual aspect.
This is on top of the fact that it was a design decision definitely made to save a struggling series.
It's a bit of a different complaint that what's going on here.
every game that has a publisher is censored then
poet at play
Banned
Because I'm the author of my own personality, and I choose not to attack the personalities of other human beings I interact with.
Nintendo is a media company which publishes works of fiction and artistic expression.
? Explain that jump, as not every game after being released is edited to avoid controversy.
I don't think many disagree that the drugging part is ridiculous and, if taken seriously, a bad idea to center a romance around.
poet at play
Banned
Haha, it's not a trap. But you made me crack up laughing with that gif.
oh sorry, missed that first part
If Nintendo removed the gay S ranks for territories that are hostile towards gays, is that censorship or just editing to make a game that people want to buy?
Is Vivian not being trans in the English script of Paper Mario TYD censorship or editing to make a game people want to buy?
Except you wouldn't be attacking me. You were using words in a strickly factual matter.
But instead of actually writing out the words in question (I'll remind you, they are CUNT and ASSHOLE), you decide to "self censor" yourself by writing "C word and A word".
How is this any different, than Nintendo, a company, changing what they are saying due to not wanting to personally offend or attack anyone. They are the "author" in this scenario, and represent the personality of the company at large. They do not want to potentially offend anyone, even though they are not actively trying to, so they may change (may, since we don't know what it'll be in the end yet) what was previously (or possibly NOT previously written), by them themselves.
Why are they obliged to do so, but you have the liberty not to?
Lalalandia
Member
Scholar of the First Sin much? Post release patches and many other things alter game balance, dialogue, add/remove locations and characters all of the time (the latter more obviously in RPG titles)
This is a reasonable starting place but the reality of any complex project is that the creative lead often winds up accepting input from other external sources. Witness what happened when the ME3 writers ran off on their own to end that game, outside input is good and bad you need to evaluate both parts.
Well we don't see much of the latter but when they are identified it happens faster than you or I can comprehend if a game has somehow opened it's publisher up to legal liability that game is edited fast. The former is a much looser thing after all a lot of Japanese games from the 80s depicted characters with African heritage using very racist caricatures such as big lips et al (hell even RE5 indulged in some of this). Japanese studios have gotten much better at catching things that their artists did out of simple ignorance to how offensive some of their audience found these depictions and don't do it any more. Should they return to depicting African people as stereotypes because it causes 'outrage'?
KirbYuuYuu
Member
From what little I gathered, he did in fact state that he spiked her drink without her knowing, and told her why.
She's a joke character whose whole purpose is to make fun of her father who's a prettyboy womanizer who always strikes out.
The Corrin/Soleil support was an attempt at humor that failed drastically.
Starsailor
Banned
it's quite funny to see the debate about that conversation since this tv show made actually much worse but no one seems to care about that
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Pretty much.
To be fair, I don't watch Game of Thrones. That's why I've never complained about it.
I seem to distinctly remember a hell of a lot debate about a certain scene in the last season.
Starsailor
Banned
In one scene last year, some priest kill all the homosexual people in a city. And this is awful because that didn't happen in the book, the priest take the power with silent peace, not by killing homosexuals people. And i saw no one complaining about that except those who reads the books. But that's not a matter of the book fact but that the show have violence just to be violent and not for a purpose story .
In this game, it's a support conversation, nintendo remove it, i say ok. We can be shocked by that so nintendo adapt the content. That's fine for me.
Lalalandia
Member
Don't fall this far mate, you sounded like you had a point for a while. For your information there has been a lot of debate about that series both for and against and personally the most recent season for me robbed it's female characters of far too much agency.
Back OT we're discussing a strategy RPG with a relationship system, you wouldn't typically expect to be able to secretly drug people into liking you in that kind of game. No, games where you apply potions to make girls like you are not normally released on the 3DS.
I did and have but not in threads on 3DS strategy titles and that character was clearly defined as an evil manipulator, the MC in FE is most certainly not depicted as a villain for drugging Soleil, hell she rewards him for it FFS.
It's a bad straw argument, HBO had to basically apologize for that incident.
Iva Demilcol
Member
You mean that medieval age where you had books decorated with drawings of couples having sex? or that medieval age where kings married 12 year old girls?
Yes, this is more like a modern otaku pandering stuff, but even in medieval ages this stuff actually happened.
Didn't we actually just have a big thread about how GoT's new season was being written with prior criticisms/complaints/controversies in mind?
edit:
Oh, I didn't catch that you were talking about a specific scene.
poet at play
Banned
Yes, it makes sense from Nintendo's perspective that they would alter a game to be more agreeable to the social norms of its market. But is the principle, the precedent, one we wish to condone as games enthusiasts ? All of our answers on this will vary, and I understand that it is subjective. I prefer my scenarios and stories to reflect that of the the original Japanese scenario writer - not of Americanised social norms.
It is censorship (or self-censorship, if you like) because it is the editing and suppression of pre-existing content specifically due to it's sensitive, objectionable or politically incorrect nature.
I'm no anarchist. I believe in civilisation and laws. And I even believe, in extreme cases, that censorship is necessary for the healthiest outcome. But this is far from one of those cases.
I believe that censorship is the enemy of the artist. I'm not saying that this scenario, from this game, is any great loss. But I'm saying that the precedent, the principle of it, is not good for the medium.
And I think all of us here care greatly about this medium.
Starsailor
Banned
The scene that you are speaking doesn't even exist in the book. I was more shocked by the treatment of the homosexuals in the tv show last year, all killed by priests...and that didn't happen in the book. Just because they have to move "fast" because "only 10 episodes" =/
"how to show that priest take power in the city?"
"kill the homos"
"what? BUT it's violence!"
"YEAH violence and sex baby".
As for the FE game, don't forget gaffers that nintendo is a familial enterprise. That dialogue even in japan is quite... a revolution for nintendo. Even in japan.
That's part of it. The other part is "heterosexuality as default" in action. A lot of people will not accept characters as homosexual unless there there is very overwhelming or very specific things done to support it. See posts arguing "she never said she was a lesbian!" (I'm guessing the number of people in the game who say "I'm heterosexual/straight" is approximately zero). And even if they get to that point, the moment there is the tiniest thing they can interpret as attraction to the opposite sex, it's "see, they're straight" (or bi if they just cannot find a way to wave the same-sex attraction). Straight characters never have to say they're straight to be seen as such; homosexual characters have to call themselves gay or lesbian, run a 10 mile marathon with a sign saying "I'M GAAAAY" on them, make out or have sex with someone of the same sex, and then never so much as look at someone of the opposite sex ever again.
Bisexuality (in Japanese media, at least) is about as non-existent as homosexuality and is basically only used for queerbaiting purposes.
Lalalandia
Member
If it was a state agency censoring them or a publisher outright subverting a game with post release edits I'd be there with you but a throw away plot whose negative implications are (hopefully) the result of cultural differences rather than intent? I can live with that edit.
Professor Beef
Banned
Move to Japan, then.
Starsailor
Banned
This scene in Japan, for nintendo also is a revolution, it's ahead of their RED LINE, EVEN in JAPAN!
We all need to remember that, this was one major exception for a Nintendo game, even in japan. So i'm not surprise about the censorship in US and even in EU with the gay mariage debate recently.
Nintendo just study our society and adapt the product because they don't want to shock for shocking.
Not like the HBO's bad writers of game of thrones...
We all need to remember that, this was one major exception for a Nintendo game, even in japan. So i'm not surprise about the censorship in US and even in EU with the gay mariage debate recently.
Nintendo just study our society and adapt the product because they don't want to shock for shocking.
Not like the HBO's bad writers of game of thrones...
Actually, the whole "therapy" didn't achieve anything in either field. She just fell for female Kamui and it translated to the male version.
Weltall Zero
Member
So are you. You want it to be left intact, because that is how it's more agreeable to your beliefs, these being that it should be left intact. You're using circular reasoning to try to pass your preference as morally superior, without bothering to justify why.
Steve Youngblood
Member
My problem with this whole line of argumentation is that I feel it's unfair to assume that the only reason they might want to change it is for reasons of political correctness and not possibly the fact that they want to improve on storytelling elements that might simply seem bad here. Maybe they realize that this attempt at humor just doesn't translate well here and they feel changing it will make it a better product. This is in contrast to a narrative that would suggest that they think the story is fine as is but are afraid that it will upset GLAD over here in the States.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
I know this was directed at people who made the argument that you mentioned, like I did, but you aren't exactly wrong.
I think I was too hasty earlier but my mentioning of her being straight was what I considered the real problem of Soleil as a character and how her quirk is generally portrayed. As a whole, her character is at complete odds at what she says and what she can actually do, and it doesn't make sense of.
Her execution is pretty bad
Now that I'm home I can address this a bit more accurately. I'll do all three parts at once as it's all three and not just a single element.
Post-release patches are generally done to improve gameplay or elements. What I'm referring to would be something like releasing Modern Warfare 2 and then due to controversy from 'No More Russian", releasing a patch that removes the level from the game or in other countries removing that particular chapter. Which is sorta what happened as Germany and Japan got a censored version of the game.
Yes there will be changes in any complex project but what I was referring to in point #2 was if the publisher without input or much say from the development team decided to do said changes. Honestly, point #2 isn't really necessary as there have been cases of the original developers having to censor their game due to public backlash or controversy. I'm thinking of course of the Hot Coffee scenario with Rockstar although elimination of the mini-game was originally Rockstar's intent.
If it's legal liabilities I think it's understandable why a publisher would release a censored version of the game but it is still censorship.
Weltall Zero
Member
It boggles my mind that people don't understand the difference between a reprehensible action made by a villain or antihero, and an action portrayed as morally correct made by a heroic character. If you have a character who's clearly an infallible hero (as most Fire Emblem protagonists tend to be) and have it do something like casually spiking a drink, you're sending a message whether you want it or not.
I also find kind of tiring the dual narratives of "games are nothing more than cheap escapism with no impact on people's perceptions and morals, let us enjoy our fanservice, you're overanalyzing them too much about sexism" and "games are sacred and untouchable works of art and you're defiling them by removing preteen underboob, drink spiking and gayness curing". Make up your minds and pick one, it can't be both.
mikefrails
Banned
Treehouse needs a revamp. From the pointless memes to toning down girl-love, they seem to be making poor choices constantly.
That doesn't stop that other bisexual female character from having female Corrin as a love interest. There's no reason Soleil couldn't have too.
Starsailor
Banned
Priest are villain in game of thrones now? I'm not talking about the Sansa scene even if this scene is really bad. I'm talking about an other treatment of homosexuality in this medieval show and few were angry about that.
Green Mamba
Member
"Toning down girl-love" isn't at all what this is about.
SenorArdilla
Member
General summary of the C-S Rank Convos:
How do you cure Soleil's lesbianism if she was never a lesbian in the first place? A bisexual with mostly lesbian-tendencies finding out she likes a guy is not "gay healing."
Though generally speaking almost all of the S-Ranks are terrible because of lack of build-up to marriage.
No one would have an issue if it turned out that Corrin was a really convincing crossdresser or if he gave her magic glasses or anything that wasn't the magic powder. Which means that the heinousness lies in the spiking of Soleil's drink with the magic powder.
SPOILER:
C Rank: Soleil talks to Corrin about her problem of fainting at the sight of a cute girl. Corrin is surprised she had such worries.
B Rank: Corrin slips a magic powder into Soleil's drink that makes her see girls as guys and vice versa to help her out via roleplaying as a female villager. Soleil says that Corrin is not her type and proceeds with the roleplay. She then runs off to see how the other men in the camp look as girls.
A Rank: The magic powder isn't helping Soleil's fainting problem. But Soleil appreciates Corrin for the roleplay practice and says it makes her happy that Corrin put so much effort into helping.
S Rank: Corrin asks Soleil to marry him. Soleil reveals that she thought Corrin looked really cute as a girl.
B Rank: Corrin slips a magic powder into Soleil's drink that makes her see girls as guys and vice versa to help her out via roleplaying as a female villager. Soleil says that Corrin is not her type and proceeds with the roleplay. She then runs off to see how the other men in the camp look as girls.
A Rank: The magic powder isn't helping Soleil's fainting problem. But Soleil appreciates Corrin for the roleplay practice and says it makes her happy that Corrin put so much effort into helping.
S Rank: Corrin asks Soleil to marry him. Soleil reveals that she thought Corrin looked really cute as a girl.
How do you cure Soleil's lesbianism if she was never a lesbian in the first place? A bisexual with mostly lesbian-tendencies finding out she likes a guy is not "gay healing."
Though generally speaking almost all of the S-Ranks are terrible because of lack of build-up to marriage.
No one would have an issue if it turned out that Corrin was a really convincing crossdresser or if he gave her magic glasses or anything that wasn't the magic powder. Which means that the heinousness lies in the spiking of Soleil's drink with the magic powder.
SPOILER:
The bisexual female character that femCorrin can S-Rank is literally the reincarnation of the stalker from Awakening. Also you're a reincarnation of Robin. The writing is really bad.
Hell, one of the very first things they clarified about the localization of the games was they were keeping same-sex relationships in the western release, and that was months ago.
Sigh, I will just type out what happens because people are still bashing the game based on mistranslations and assumptions.
Soon after Soleil is introduced you see her hitting on a cute girl and asking her on a tea date. There's also a scene where Soleil hits on her own mother and asks her on a tea date. In that scene she says that cute girls (her mother included) arouse her and she can't help herself wanting to be near them/go on a tea date. There's also a scene with her father where she brags about being better at picking up girls than him. ''I went to town and met like 5 different girls that I went out for tea with. Oh, it was great.''
Support conversations with Corrin:
1.) Soleil tells Corrin that she has a problem handling cute girls, to the point of (almost) fainting. She wants to get rid of this weakness.
2.) Corrin decides to help* her so he spikes her drink with a drug that makes women appear as men and men as women. She is immediately notified of this and is in no way tricked into falling in love with a ''woman'' that's actually a man. Soleil comments that fem Corrin is not her type. Then they do ''special training where Corrin does his best to imitate a cute girl so that Soleil would get used to cute girls and stop (almost) fainting. Corrin's imitation is pretty good: ''That was perfect, I darn near passed out!'' They take a break and Soleil goes to take a look at her unappealing male comrades to see if they turned into cute girls. Corrin tries to stop her.
*To be clear, Corrin wants to help her stop (almost) fainting and not stop liking girls.
3.) The special training didn't work, cute girls still make her weak in the knees. She's happy Corrin went through the effort of helping her.
4.) Proposal, the important bits were kindly transcribed by Steve Youngblood
Nowhere does it state that it's wrong for her to like girls. Nowhere does it state that she overcame her weakness of almost fainting. Nowhere does it state that she doesn't like guys. She never (almost) fainted in battle; her problems occur when she meets cute girls in the village.
If you want all the little details watch the video.
Soon after Soleil is introduced you see her hitting on a cute girl and asking her on a tea date. There's also a scene where Soleil hits on her own mother and asks her on a tea date. In that scene she says that cute girls (her mother included) arouse her and she can't help herself wanting to be near them/go on a tea date. There's also a scene with her father where she brags about being better at picking up girls than him. ''I went to town and met like 5 different girls that I went out for tea with. Oh, it was great.''
Support conversations with Corrin:
1.) Soleil tells Corrin that she has a problem handling cute girls, to the point of (almost) fainting. She wants to get rid of this weakness.
2.) Corrin decides to help* her so he spikes her drink with a drug that makes women appear as men and men as women. She is immediately notified of this and is in no way tricked into falling in love with a ''woman'' that's actually a man. Soleil comments that fem Corrin is not her type. Then they do ''special training where Corrin does his best to imitate a cute girl so that Soleil would get used to cute girls and stop (almost) fainting. Corrin's imitation is pretty good: ''That was perfect, I darn near passed out!'' They take a break and Soleil goes to take a look at her unappealing male comrades to see if they turned into cute girls. Corrin tries to stop her.
*To be clear, Corrin wants to help her stop (almost) fainting and not stop liking girls.
3.) The special training didn't work, cute girls still make her weak in the knees. She's happy Corrin went through the effort of helping her.
4.) Proposal, the important bits were kindly transcribed by Steve Youngblood
The line about cheating is meant as a joke.
Nowhere does it state that it's wrong for her to like girls. Nowhere does it state that she overcame her weakness of almost fainting. Nowhere does it state that she doesn't like guys. She never (almost) fainted in battle; her problems occur when she meets cute girls in the village.
If you want all the little details watch the video.
If only there was a way to deal with this.
I hear that people called "writers" can maybe affect this. Somehow. Not sure!
Atmej;192889514 If you want all the little details [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iVFPheRegw" said:
No matter how many times you say this it won't make the video's interpretation magically more correct.
Should I post that Japanese website a few more times? Thats actual Japanese people who agree that this game's handling of Soleil is gross.
In the scene being discussed? Absolutely.
Two arguments seem to be happening here: whether the scene edited in the game is innocent or not and whether editing it is censorship or not. Consider authorial intent: I think it's clear that the scene in question is received differently in Japan than in the US/EU. If the intent for the Japanese audience is to see it as a funny/cute scene, could editing it for western release (thus avoiding controversy) actually be PRESERVING the artists' intent rather than censorship?
Also, people seem to be assuming NA localization is done without any input from the original writers. Do we know that's true?
Edit: Damnit, page bottom.
Good point.
Not saying it's a good reason, just a reflection of how marginal LGBT characters are in the game.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Dude I know the whole context of that conversation, I re-watch ed it to make sure I wasn't going off base with anything.
I'm saying that her drink being drugged without her knowledge did happen. He just told her after the effects came into play.
That was my clarification, and obviously why the scene is dubious