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[Crash Station]

Lots of people in this thread don't care though, many don't even try to understand why they should care.

I don't think shouting at people "be empathetic!" is going to make people empathetic. Attitude is a big part of pushing progress and yours has been very combative this whole thread. That's not going to make people want to understand.

 

[Fishious]

It doesn't work that way though. I'm saying it'd be at the back of the minds of heterosexual members of the design team to include any gay options, especially in a less tolerant country like Japan. 2 probably makes sense, though later games might have 1 for each version and gender, sure.

Edit: I get that this isn't what you guys want to hear, but I don't mean anything negative by it whatsoever. Just pointing the elephant in the room out.

I think that is the root cause, but I don't really see anyone debating that. People in general are more likely to write/draw what they know, which is themselves and people like them. And you're right that Japan, at least from what I've read, seems less progressive than most western countries with regards to LGBT issues. So it's to be expected, but that doesn't mean that people should simply accept it. By raising the issue creators are more likely keep these things in mind when they create something new.

And the issue with statistical representation tends to be that the 2 or 3 percent tends to be a low number so it's "statistically reasonable" that any given game wouldn't have any LGBT characters. Even a game with a large cast like Fire Emblem it's still statistically reasonable that there either wouldn't be any. The issue is this creates a lack of representation when games are viewed as a whole because it's always "unlikely" so they wind up with no representation.

The other issue is treatment of such characters when they do appear. The issue central to this thread (I'm going by what's been posted, I haven't played it yet) Soleil is attracted to women, but it's mostly played as a joke. She is unable to marry other female characters, but can marry male characters including the male protagonist. The whole "magic powder" thing carries unfortunate implications as well. As others have said sexuality is a spectrum, but the fact that she can marry 0 female characters makes the whole thing even weirder.

 

[Fencedude]

The other issue is treatment of such characters when they do appear. The issue central to this thread (I'm going by what's been posted, I haven't played it yet) Soleil is attracted to women, but it's mostly played as a joke. She is unable to marry other female characters, but can marry male characters including the male protagonist. The whole "magic powder" thing carries unfortunate implications as well. As others have said sexuality is a spectrum, but the fact that she can marry 0 female characters makes the whole thing even weirder.

Also Shara is a stalker and weird, while Zero is a creep and borderline abusive. Also great LGBT representation

 

[Chi3fster]

Lots of people in this thread don't care though, many don't even try to understand why they should care.

I mean the drugging and "gay conversion" aren't even a fraction of the severity that the media wants people to believe.

 

[CenturionKei]

I'm just glad we got a Yuri option. At least Nintedo gave us that right?

 

[TheChaos]

Also Shara is a stalker and weird, while Zero is a creep and borderline abusive. Also great LGBT representation

I think you need to come to terms with the fact that there's very little we as foreigners can do about this.

 

[Draxal]

Also Shara is a stalker and weird, while Zero is a creep and borderline abusive. Also great LGBT representation

FWIW, the reaction to Niles (zero) has been pretty positive by the male homosexual fire emblem community on neogaf (mind you that's a pretty small sample size as I know of only three posters including eleventhour who has identified as such).

 

[RM8]

Also Shara is a stalker and weird, while Zero is a creep and borderline abusive. Also great LGBT representation

Lol, of course they'd make the bi characters particularly awful.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think you need to come to terms with the fact that there's very little we as foreigners can do about this.

We as foreigners, if we are vocal enough, can reach NoA, and if NoA thinks it is big enough to warrant it, they will be vocal to NCL about it.

 

[Fencedude]

I think you need to come to terms with the fact that there's very little we as foreigners can do about this.

But there is? Like, maybe not completely directly, but if we make it clear to Nintendo America that this is unacceptable, it will filter back to Nintendo Japan.

And of course its not just us. There is that website where Japanese LGBT people bring up these same issues. We can support them as well.

Also, just because we can't directly change this, doesn't mean its not worth talking about

 

[NeonZ]

Gay characters having children (through non reproductive means) = absurd

Having a kid with a 1000 year old dragon = totally sensible

That would require making an unique character just for that pairing though, something no other pairing gets. It's an issue of game resources.

There's a separate system where two player avatars that "bond" with each other can then breath life into the Earth and generate a generic child unit (so no supports or story scenes) and that one can be done by male/female, male/male or female/female pairings.

 

[tengiants]

Lots of people in this thread don't care though, many don't even try to understand why they should care.

With your stance on this, your username, and your avatar, I have a hard time taking you seriously here. It feels hypocritical and not genuine. if your avatar was two dudes kissing and you spoke with less vitriol, I might be able to take your position more seriously.

 

[TheChaos]

We as foreigners, if we are vocal enough, can reach NoA, and if NoA thinks it is big enough to warrant it, they will be vocal to NCL about it.

I doubt that, especially how little historical sway NoA has over Nintendo of Japan.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Man what happened to Fire Emblem? Glad I stopped with Radiant Dawn.

I know right.

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Hahahahaha

But how is it not censorship?

It's called localization, or editing.

Honestly, offensive or not, I'm totally okay with localization simply removing shitty writing and replacing it with something better (if it's actually better, of course -- which I guess is subjective but w/e). Even the best writers have editors, and the FE writers are not exactly gifted, so whatever anyone does to slightly improve their abysmal writing is a plus to me.

 

[Fencedude]

That would require making an unique character just for that pairing though, something no other pairing gets.

How?

Or, just do the kid mechanic differently

(or in the future just stop wit the kids. Please. It was neat in Awakening but lets just not for the next few games)

 

[theprodigy]

That would require making an unique character just for that pairing though, something no other pairing gets.

No it wouldn't.

 

[nukedeggs]

I doubt that, especially how little historical sway NoA has over Nintendo of Japan.

Man that is so weird. I'd imagine that Western gamers make up a large portion of sales, right? You'd want to please the people you're selling to, right?

 

[Fencedude]

With your stance on this, your username, and your avatar, I have a hard time taking you seriously here. It feels hypocritical and not genuine. if your avatar was two dudes kissing and you spoke with less vitriol, I might be able to take your position more seriously.

I enjoy stories that involve homosexual relationships between girls.

If you think that is a problem, well, thats your problem not mine.

 

[Pau]

It's beyond sad how messy FE has gotten. I want to ignore all this bullcrap and enjoy the gameplay which apparently is a step up from Awakening, but I fear it'll feel like walking in a minefield of cringe worthy writing and shameless otaku pandering. And there's nowhere to go, there's no alternative to Fire Emblem.

Yup this.

I also know (okay think) Fire Emblem can do better. If they want to see examples of gay relationships that aren't shitty, they can look toward their own games. In Radiant Dawn:

Spoiler

Ike, Soren, and Ranulf (?). Can't say that it was intended but the blueprint is there.

Just be more explicit next time. Let them get married or express their love for each other like other characters can.

 

[Kaiterra]

Also Shara is a stalker and weird, while Zero is a creep and borderline abusive. Also great LGBT representation

I think this is a double edged sword. It kind of sucks they're the only representation but I think that's more interesting than a completely boring character with no faults which is what happens a lot of the time when token representation is attempted in the West, something that has only gradually improved over time. Of course I have a lot more issues besides that with those two being the only options (being second generation characters only apparently, being locked one each to different versions of the game, only having same-sex S-supports with the main character, etc.)

(or in the future just stop wit the kids. Please. It was neat in Awakening but lets just not for the next few games)

Yes it's a fun mechanic but it clearly is warping the games in a major way so it's probably best to make some without it.

 

[RM8]

Man that is so weird. I'd imagine that Western gamers make up a large portion of sales, right? You'd want to please the people you're selling to, right?

Cloud and Mega Man are way, way more popular in the west than in Japan, which is probably why they were included in SSB. Japanese reactions to Cloud had people saying "this is for the foreigners". So yeah, Japanese developers absolutely can take into consideration what the overseas market wants.

I know right.

Lol, it'd be traumatic to go from Radiant Dawn to Fates.

Yup this.

I also know (okay think) Fire Emblem can do better. If they want to see examples of gay relationships that aren't shitty, they can look toward their own games. In Radiant Dawn:

Spoiler

Ike, Soren, and Ranulf (?). Can't say that it was intended but the blueprint is there.

Just be more explicit next time. Let them get married or express their love for each other like other characters can.

Pretty much. Sigh Fire Emblem is such a tragic story of market trends and viability of niche games.

 

[Draxal]

I think this is a double edged sword. It kind of sucks they're the only representation but I think that's more interesting than a completely boring character with no faults which is what happens a lot of the time when token representation is attempted in the West, something that has only gradually improved over time. Of course I have a lot more issues besides that with those two being the only options (being second generation characters only apparently, being locked one each to different versions of the game, only having same-sex S-supports with the main character, etc.)

Niles is first gen, and the limited sample size I've seen is that the reaction to Niles is much stronger than Rhajat and Soleil.

 

[tengiants]

I enjoy stories that involve homosexual relationships between girls.

If you think that is a problem, well, thats your problem not mine.

So you can fantasize about turning them straight? A gay conversion if you will?

 

[Fencedude]

I think this is a double edged sword. It kind of sucks they're the only representation but I think that's more interesting than a completely boring character with no faults which is what happens a lot of the time when token representation is attempted in the West, something that has only gradually improved over time. Of course I have a lot more issues besides that with those two being the only options (being second generation characters only apparently, being locked one each to different versions of the game, only having same-sex S-supports with the main character, etc.)

Imagine if the only woman a male MC could marry in Awakening was Tharja.

Sure, some people would be fine with that, but I'll bet many, MANY more would find that rather upsetting. Especially if they could also marry ANY other male character.

Does this kinda explain the issue?

 

[Fencedude]

So you can fantasize about turning them straight? A gay conversion if you will?

...no?

I don't know how you got that out of that statement

 

[Draxal]

Yup this.

I also know (okay think) Fire Emblem can do better. If they want to see examples of gay relationships that aren't shitty, they can look toward their own games. In Radiant Dawn:

Spoiler

Ike, Soren, and Ranulf (?). Can't say that it was intended but the blueprint is there.

Just be more explicit next time. Let them get married or express their love for each other like other characters can.

They fucked up Soleil, but let's not open up that bag of worms of Ike and Soren again.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's beyond sad how messy FE has gotten. I want to ignore all this bullcrap and enjoy the gameplay which apparently is a step up from Awakening, but I fear it'll feel like walking in a minefield of cringe worthy writing and shameless otaku pandering. And there's nowhere to go, there's no alternative to Fire Emblem.

That's why I just replay FFTactics and Shining Force every now and then.

 

[Kaiterra]

Imagine if the only woman a male MC could marry in Awakening was Tharja.

Sure, some people would be fine with that, but I'll bet many, MANY more would find that rather upsetting. Especially if they could also marry ANY other male character.

Does this kinda explain the issue?

I mean, when the game is set up so that every hetero relationship has to be viable no matter how ridiculous (you get the option to romance Walmart's evil zombie ass in Awakening!), you might as well just enable same sex relationships as well. And Soleil is there already so Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhdhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ugh could just enable her but noooo

 

[Fencedude]

Yup this.

I also know (okay think) Fire Emblem can do better. If they want to see examples of gay relationships that aren't shitty, they can look toward their own games. In Radiant Dawn:

Spoiler

Ike, Soren, and Ranulf (?). Can't say that it was intended but the blueprint is there.

Just be more explicit next time. Let them get married or express their love for each other like other characters can.

Heck, Radiant Dawn had Heather, who was explicitly gay (the English version toned her down a bit but not by much) and....while a bit flirty was otherwise a fine character.

 

[RM8]

That's why I just replay FFTactics and Shining Force every now and then.

I'm playing Tactics Ogre on GBA, it truly feels like the product of an era that's long gone A top notch SRPG without shitty dating sim elements and awful pandering character designs is not something we'll see happening a lot these days.

If you want a recent recommendation, try Mercenaries Saga 2 on 3DS. It's kind of a miracle that something like it exists, and apparently it was very successful for Circle Entertainment.

 

[Draxal]

Pretty much. Sigh Fire Emblem is such a tragic story of market trends and viability of niche games.

The blatant pandering is new, but fire Emblem has always been a ship heavy series.

 

[patapuf]

I mean the drugging and "gay conversion" aren't even a fraction of the severity that the media wants people to believe.

Just to point out: this is a thread about people being pissed that there is a change: just as much of a molehill.

If people were defending something quality i'd understand. this is just trash. Even if you don't think it's offensive. it's bottom of the barrel harem Anime level writing.

Nothing is lost by it being changed.

 

[RM8]

The blatant pandering is new, but fire Emblem has always been a ship heavy series.

It's an entirely different matter when a core gameplay element revolves around it, though.

If people were defending something quality i'd understand. this is just trash.

Very often I read people being angry because of localization changes, while saying stuff along the lines of "yeah, this is bad, but I hate changes on principle!". That'd be understandable if there were at least some good things worth defending every now and then, but it's always stuff like a minor in a thong or stuff like this.

 

[Draxal]

It's an entirely different matter when a core gameplay element revolves around it, though.

Which is an old mechanic, that's been reintroduced multiple times. Like being able to pick out Roys mom in Blazing sword.

 

[RM8]

Which is an old mechanic, that's been reintroduced multiple times. Like being able to pick out Roys mom in Blazing sword.

Compared to marriage and kids being almost unavoidable in Awakening, though? (I should know, I actively avoided marriages for the lols and extra challenge). No FE game prior to Awakening feels this focused on shipping, really.

 

[Draxal]

Compared to marriage and kids being almost unavoidable in Awakening, though? (I should know, I actively avoided marriages for the lols and extra challenge). No FE game prior to Awakening feels this focused on shipping, really.

Its a key mechanic in FE4, where you had to it.

 

[Fencedude]

Which is an old mechanic, that's been reintroduced multiple times. Like being able to pick out Roys mom in Blazing sword.

Thats a little different.

Before Awakening, support marriages were nothing more than end-game bonuses really. Except, of course, for in Geneology of the Holy War, which revolved entirely around the mechanic.

Awakening brought it back (which was fine) and introuced a bizarre time-travel thing to justify it. (whatever).

But now its back again, in the next game, and its just like "ok whatever can we go back to not having this please"

 

[L Thammy]

I mean the drugging and "gay conversion" aren't even a fraction of the severity that the media wants people to believe.

Regardless of whether the media is blowing it out of proportion or not, part of what upsets people is not what the game is, but what it invokes. Drugging people without their consent is something that happens in real life, "gay conversation therapy" is something that happen in real life, and neither are going to be as pretty as they are in a video game. These are things that a lot of people do not want to see misrepresented, justified, or glamourized.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Compared to marriage and kids being almost undeniable in Awakening, though? (I should know, I actively avoided marriages for the lols and extra challenge). No FE game prior to Awakening feels this focused on shipping, really.

Both are pretty unnecessary if you really don't want to do it, except for Chrom. The only game where pairings and kids are really necessary is FE4.

 

[NeonZ]

How?

Or, just do the kid mechanic differently

(or in the future just stop wit the kids. Please. It was neat in Awakening but lets just not for the next few games)

No it wouldn't.

As far as Fates' implementation goes, an adoption scenario would require changes to the presentation, the joining chapter and one character would be incompatible with it too, unless they changed other aspects of the game just to make it possible.

Spoilers, obviously.

Spoiler

The entire backstory of their joining chapters involves them being born, attacked by monsters and sent to a separate dimension to protect them - so, they grow up mostly away from their parents.

Adoption just doesn't fit there, since it'd require a different narrative for the child and tweaked scenario for the chapter itself.

Kanna also would be incompatible with it since there's no actual dragon tribe in the game.

You'd need to change things from a more initial level of production to make the implementation easier and smoother, and even then you'd still need more changed dialogue and mechanics for the adopted child compared to what the others get.

 

[Fencedude]

Regardless of whether the media is blowing it out of proportion or not, part of what upsets people is not what the game is, but what it invokes. Drugging people without their consent is something that happens in real life, "gay conversation therapy" is something that happen in real life, and neither are going to be as pretty as they are in a video game. These are things that a lot of people do not want to see misrepresented, justified, or glamourized.

Especially when they are done by the EXPLICITLY HEROIC, Player Avatar.

 

[Draxal]

Thats a little different.

Before Awakening, support marriages were nothing more than end-game bonuses really. Except, of course, for in Geneology of the Holy War, which revolved entirely around the mechanic.

Awakening brought it back (which was fine) and introuced a bizarre time-travel thing to justify it. (whatever).

But now its back again, in the next game, and its just like "ok whatever can we go back to not having this please"

Oh I'm tired of the kids myself, but let's not pretend the fandom doesn't love shipping.

 

[Ludger Kresnik]

FWIW, the reaction to Niles (zero) has been pretty positive by the male homosexual fire emblem community on neogaf (mind you that's a pretty small sample size as I know of only three posters including eleventhour who has identified as such).

Niles has his... problematic aspects, but I for one am embracing him and hoping that he'll lead to better things down the road. If nothing else, it's a start.

Spoiler

i really like his design which helps

 

[RM8]

Oh I'm tired of the kids myself, but let's not pretend the fandom doesn't love shipping.

The fandom seemingly loves shipping, pandering character designs and bland maps. That doesn't mean we can't criticize those elements

As for FE4, I started with the GBA games (even though I've played Gaiden, lol) so such a huge focus on marriage was new for me in Awakening. And I seriously don't see how it was needed at all in Fates. What's more, I doubt kids will ever leave the series

 

[L Thammy]

Maybe the next Fire Emblem can have a Fanservice Emblem companion app where you get to watch a rom-com with your chosen supports and then rub everyone

 

[Fencedude]

Oh I'm tired of the kids myself, but let's not pretend the fandom doesn't love shipping.

yeah, but before it was easy enough to pair up, say, Eirika and L'Arachel, or Jill and Lethe, or Heather and Nephenee, andnot have it literally shoved in your face that they couldn't become lovers.

If your thing is heterosexual shipping (uuuugghhhhh) then Awakening and Fates are amazing, but if you don't like that, or happen to also enjoy non-hetero shipping, its just oppressive.

(Lissa/Maribelle OTP)

 

[Draxal]

The fandom seemingly loves shipping, pandering character designs and bland maps. That doesn't mean we can't criticize those elements

As for FE4, I started with the GBA games (even though I've played Gaiden, lol) so such a huge focus on marriage was new for me in Awakening. And I seriously don't see how it was needed at all in Fates. What's more, I doubt kids will ever leave the series

I don't think anybody loves the maps in Awakening. Some of the fandom loves the pandering character designs, and some don't. I think a lot of people love shipping, as all three games that have focused on it heavily have sold really well.

I could see them keeping the shipping system in place, but removing the kids because they're not really a focus at all in Fates.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I'm just popping into thread because it seems horribly overwhelming, but I've read something that I think explains this.

Supposedly the things about lesbians in Japanese media is not that they're invisible, but that they're depicted as a practice phase that young women eventually grow out of when exposed to real relationships. So you get a lot of media that shows girls in high school being touchy-feely but not so many showing them staying together as adults. So the way that that the folks at Intelligent Systems may have intended us to view the scene may have been that the avatar is trying to help the woman grow out of her immature lesbian phase.

Mind you, I'm just parroting things I've read here. I can't really vouch for it personally. Actually, if there's a video I should probably watch it, maybe it doesn't apply here anyway.

I kind of get that, but I have a couple of problems with it. The first -- as has been mentioned -- is that I think that this can be destructive in and of itself for people that aren't just "in a phase," but actually are interested in same-sex relationships for the long haul. But sure, I can understand that -- while not necessarily solving the problem of not being offensive necessarily -- establishing her interest in cute girls as something that's either fake or fleeting would make more sense from a narrative standpoint.

But the second and main problem I have is that I'm not convinced that this is how she's genuinely portrayed. Nothing in any of the conversations highlighted in the debunking videos demonstrates that she's not actually legitimately interested in girls. Even when the male avatar character goes through the gender-perception-switching exercise, it still seems that she likes girls. The avatar character even acknowledges (perhaps strictly jokingly) that he guesses he doesn't have to worry about her cheating on him with other guys since she's really interested in girls. And the language she uses to accept the proposal seems to indicate that she loves him in spite of him being a man. Nothing in the game aside from game mechanic that only allows her to have male romance options seems to hint at anything other than her being sexually interested in "cute girls."

 

[nukedeggs]

The fandom seemingly loves shipping, pandering character designs and bland maps. That doesn't mean we can't criticize those elements

As for FE4, I started with the GBA games (even though I've played Gaiden, lol) so such a huge focus on marriage was new for me in Awakening. And I seriously don't see how it was needed at all in Fates. What's more, I doubt kids will ever leave the series

Yeah I also started with the GBA games, though the marriage system in Awakening never really bothered me - I liked min-maxing the kids and thought it was pretty cool.

I do think it'll be unfortunate if every FE game afterwards has kids though, but I doubt it, right? Maybe it'll be like a 3DS Fire Emblem era thing.

I could see them keeping the shipping system in place, but removing the kids because they're not really a focus at all in Fates.

Yeah, pretty much this.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

I should note that the marriage system was still well received in the popularity poll done in Japan.

Face rubbing, not nearly as much