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[whatsinaname]

It's a weapon designed to kill Superman, and she doesn't want him killed.
Also :

! And the movie the Waynes were watching at the beginning was called Excalibur. Snyder is a genius!

:/

The metropolis destruction was terrifying.

It's fine. It was the business district and everyone had gone home for the day.

I think he's gonna stay as Clark Kent and be known to the public. His identity was revealed in the Daily Planet paper so unless Superman goes through some major facial reconstruction (aka switch actors) he's going to stay looking the same.


This Superman doesn't want to interfere with politics. He'll only come to assistant if someone is yelling "help."

I thought the Superman's death and Clark Kent's were on different pages?

That superman save, when Lex throws Lois off the roof, that was crazy. DC Animated Universe level shit.
By that point in time I wasn't sure who'd be the one to do saving. Superman was on a fucking mountain being moses last time we saw him. Batman was being batman somewhere, and we don't know what WW was up to. So there was a split second I thought the flash or someone else would show up.
But nope, of course its superman. No swoosh sound, or any kind of cue that he'd show up, he comes out of nowhere, and suddenly Lois is floating and he's just there, being superman as fuck. I loved that shit. It was Superman Returns's supes lifting that car all over again. That was some superman shit.

Because every character action, motivation or power in this movie is completely inconsistent. They are variable so the director/scriptwriter can get a cool shot out of it. Superman can find Lois on a moment's notice in the middle of a desert or when she is falling off a roof. He can go to mexico so quickly to save a girl from a burning building. But he can't find his mother in metropolis even when he has an hour.

 

[duckroll]

I liked the movie quite a bit. It's a lot to take in though, both the good and the bad. The movie as it is, is a beautiful mess. It's an explosion of ambitious ideas, a mish-mash of comic inspiration, and probably the bleakest mainstream comic book film ever made. This really isn't a movie you take your kids to. In a way The Dark Knight might have been like that, but here the tone is even harsher, the violence feels cruel, and the tone simply isn't interested in catering to those looking to just "have a good time".

There are three major components to the film which I think Zack Snyder really wanted to tackle - The Dark Knight Returns, The Death of Superman, and the birth of a DC Cinematic Universe. The trouble is, they're not the same film, and what each component carries thematically is often at odds with the other two. By mixing all of it into a single movie, everything else is weakened. Snyder probably just didn't want to make three separate movies before Justice League, or he was sure Warner wouldn't let him, so he forced them all into one giant... thing. But even in it's weakened state, I think it is a glory to behold. Amazingly well shot, entire prolonged sequences brilliantly thought out, there's so much of the movie which makes me want to know more about this version of the world, and see more of it.

It just doesn't gel that well together as a whole though, and it constantly feels like a movie on a verge of breaking apart completely. That's not entirely a bad feeling though, because for what the film was going for, the self-destructive tone and the feeling of everything being hammered into place by brute force resonates well with most of the actual character motivations and the relentless visceral visuals. Narratively, I think the biggest problem is Batman's actual motivation to fight Superman. It makes very little sense, and the thing which pushes him over the edge didn't even really have anything to do with Superman. If he put just a third of the effort he put into training to fight Superman into rational thought and some investigative work instead, Luthor would finished before his plan ever gets off the ground.

I thought Wonder Woman was really well done, mainly because I'm already familiar with the character, but this is probably a poor introduction for those who aren't. The funny thing about the film is that on one hand it wants to act as a springboard for all the other DC characters, but on the other hand the only people who would really get most of it would be those who are already familiar with them. Kinda defeats the purpose. In terms of all the JL teases, the only one which really worked was Wonder Woman's photo. They should have just left it at that, since she actually has a role in the film. The Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg stuff is just very randomly, and some of it felt pretty cheap and rather lazily thrown together. The Knightmare sequence should probably have been extended as a stand alone extra instead. There was no reason at all for it to be a part of the actual movie. It's really cool looking, and it gives a glimpse as to what sort of future the Justice League would want to prevent, but there's nothing at all connecting it to any of the actual events in the film it is in. Really odd decision.

The character scenes in BvS far surpass Man of Steel, but the action does feel like a step back. That's not to say there isn't cool action in it, but it feels like for most of the movie, action isn't really the point. The psychology that leads to violence is a big theme, but the actual violence is done in such a casual and often cruel way that it is hard to find it cool. The only straight up superhero action is in the final Doomsday climax, which I felt was completely unnecessary. Like how I felt MoS should have ended with Zod just sucked into the Phantom Zone with the others, I felt BvS should have ended with Batman saying Martha Kent, and Superman capturing Luthor. The pro-longed final action sequence serves little relevance to the overall narrative arc other than to add more destruction porn and artificially lead into the Death of Superman. It almost feels like the only reason Snyder wanted to do that at all is just so he can shoot that one scene at the end where the flag if folded at the military funeral and then rested on the black coffin with the Superman symbol. It's an amazing shot, but ultimately pointless since we know he'll be back next year in the JL movie.

I didn't have a problem with the really odd Luthor take at all, but I do feel that the script was really superficial about it. He was portrayed in such an insane way that it was clear he had mental problems. Probably schizophrenia, but yet they never really do anything with it or provide the character with more depth than his insanity resulting in a big cave troll destroying two cities. A huge missed opportunity there I think.

The most memorable parts of the movie will probably be the first 30 minutes or so of the film, along with the moment in the final fight where Wonder Woman assembles and the theme kicks in. That's one seriously awesome music track. The fight might have been pointless, but the audio was glorious.

 

[Discotheque]

i'm buying the bluray for those first 20 minutes. good thoughts on the film. i think the pacing meanders too much but the concepts and ideas presented in here are gutsy as fuck for a movie with batman and superman in 2016.

it bored me at times but i appreciated what snyder was doing here as well. and i keep saying it but man that bruce/man of steel sequence is the best take on city destruction i've ever seen in a comic book movie. all these cg setpieces and final acts blend together and feel generic but this is the first time it's shown in such a frightening manner. really makes the humans, including bruce, look like ants among gods.

 

[bedlamite]

also superman's death....so what does this mean for clark kent? will clark kent never come back? how do you explain your rise from the grave? do they have the gall to actually give him a new name/identity?

He'll be back in the next movie, his death is the first part of the "Death and Return of Superman" storyline arc from the comics. Don't know how Snyder is going to do it, but he's likely going to spend the first half-hour or longer of the next Superman movie resurrecting him. A complete waste of one of the biggest storylines (also the most reviled) in the DC universe, if you ask me. Snyder played this hand way too early, the Justice League hasn't even been set up so his death isn't going to be explored from the League's perspective.

Anybody who's been following this movie knows BvS is the launching pad for the DC movie universe, so there's no way Supes stays dead. As meaningless as Supe's death was, Snyder didn't even have the balls to make it stick, what with the final shot of the movie. Terrible. IMHO the movie should have ended with Supes alive and the trinity of Bats, WW, and Superman in the early stages of setting up the Justice League. Move the DaR storyline to the end of the next movie where Superman's death would have much more impact within the League.

 

[duckroll]

I wasn't bored for a single minute throughout the admittedly overlong runtime, but I did feel there was a ton of excess. Snyder simply cannot stop himself from shooting what he thinks is a cool idea, even if it doesn't fit. I found that even scenes which didn't fit were captivating in their own way. The Knightmare is a good example. Okay, the Aquaman one was dogshit. There's no defending that one. Lol.

But yeah, this is the ballsiest superhero film ever. I would say it is balliser than Watchmen because at least with Watchmen, people knew what to expect. Here, he is straight up selling the DC Cinematic Universe as a bleak beginning to what could well be the end of humanity and the dawn of gods fighting over a scorched Earth. And... I... kinda love that.

 

[Auto-Reply]

It was government property. They were using it for study and I think develop new weapons. They could have moved it but that would have required them to ask Superman for help which was the main point of the movie of the government not being able to negotiate with him.

The first time Superman was on a kryptonian ship a service/security bot nearly killed Lois. So he must have thought about the poor schmuck that would be first to enter the crashed ship because the same could happen there, and nearly did with Luthor entering the ship. Superman really is careless in these movies all things considered.

 

[The Silver]

I'm probably gonna get called an idiot but I honestly believe this is gonna be one of those films that many years from now will be looked at very differently. I'm not really saying people are gonna start loving it and claim it a work of art.... just I don't know I just feel it, I've never felt this way about any other movie.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I wasn't bored for a single minute throughout the admittedly overlong runtime, but I did feel there was a ton of excess. Snyder simply cannot stop himself from shooting what he thinks is a cool idea, even if it doesn't fit. I found that even scenes which didn't fit were captivating in their own way. The Knightmare is a good example. Okay, the Aquaman one was dogshit. There's no defending that one. Lol.

But yeah, this is the ballsiest superhero film ever. I would say it is balliser than Watchmen because at least with Watchmen, people knew what to expect. Here, he is straight up selling the DC Cinematic Universe as a bleak beginning to what could well be the end of humanity and the dawn of gods fighting over a scorched Earth. And... I... kinda love that.

Not just any gods, New Gods.

 

[KingBroly]

I wasn't bored for a single minute throughout the admittedly overlong runtime, but I did feel there was a ton of excess. Snyder simply cannot stop himself from shooting what he thinks is a cool idea, even if it doesn't fit. I found that even scenes which didn't fit were captivating in their own way. The Knightmare is a good example. Okay, the Aquaman one was dogshit. There's no defending that one. Lol.

But yeah, this is the ballsiest superhero film ever. I would say it is balliser than Watchmen because at least with Watchmen, people knew what to expect. Here, he is straight up selling the DC Cinematic Universe as a bleak beginning to what could well be the end of humanity and the dawn of gods fighting over a scorched Earth. And... I... kinda love that.

The JL stuff had to be Studio meddling. It just doesn't fit, and could've easily been saved for the WW movie or perhaps the start of Justice League.

Knightmare stuff wasn't necessary at all, IMO. Cut those 5 minutes out and you're not really losing anything.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

The JL stuff had to be Studio meddling. It just doesn't fit, and could've easily been saved for the WW movie or perhaps the start of Justice League.

Knightmare stuff wasn't necessary at all, IMO. Cut those 5 minutes out and you're not really losing anything.

For the general audience yeah, for DC fans it was absolutely essential in setting up the DCCU.


Omega
Parademons
Time-traveling Flash

That future was very much a mix of STAS finale Legacy and Injustice.

 

[Discotheque]

I'm probably gonna get called an idiot but I honestly believe this is gonna be one of those films that many years from now will be looked at very differently. I'm not really saying people are gonna start loving it and claim it a work of art.... just I don't know I just feel it, I've never felt this way about any other movie.

i have about plenty of movies. lone ranger, miami vice, hulk etc.

snyder isn't as talented as those directors (well certainly not mann or ang lee) and i will absolutely never like this as much as i do miami vice.

but this can probably be one of those kinds of movies that may get a second look in the future. snyder fucked up a lot by cramming too many arcs in and WB had to force their justice league stuff as well, but this is also the most experimental superhero movie i've ever seen since hulk. and i kind of admire how out there he went with it all.

even modifying the 'cemented' moral characters of batman and superman. the last guy who did that was burton and he got hell for it for years.

i'm probably gonna be one of those 'speed racer' guys for this movie in a few years. i'm getting the sense that just might happen.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I liked the movie quite a bit. It's a lot to take in though, both the good and the bad. The movie as it is, is a beautiful mess. It's an explosion of ambitious ideas, a mish-mash of comic inspiration, and probably the bleakest mainstream comic book film ever made. This really isn't a movie you take your kids to. In a way The Dark Knight might have been like that, but here the tone is even harsher, the violence feels cruel, and the tone simply isn't interested in catering to those looking to just "have a good time".

There are three major components to the film which I think Zack Snyder really wanted to tackle - The Dark Knight Returns, The Death of Superman, and the birth of a DC Cinematic Universe. The trouble is, they're not the same film, and what each component carries thematically is often at odds with the other two. By mixing all of it into a single movie, everything else is weakened. Snyder probably just didn't want to make three separate movies before Justice League, or he was sure Warner wouldn't let him, so he forced them all into one giant... thing. But even in it's weakened state, I think it is a glory to behold. Amazingly well shot, entire prolonged sequences brilliantly thought out, there's so much of the movie which makes me want to know more about this version of the world, and see more of it.

It just doesn't gel that well together as a whole though, and it constantly feels like a movie on a verge of breaking apart completely. That's not entirely a bad feeling though, because for what the film was going for, the self-destructive tone and the feeling of everything being hammered into place by brute force resonates well with most of the actual character motivations and the relentless visceral visuals. Narratively, I think the biggest problem is Batman's actual motivation to fight Superman. It makes very little sense, and the thing which pushes him over the edge didn't even really have anything to do with Superman. If he put just a third of the effort he put into training to fight Superman into rational thought and some investigative work instead, Luthor would finished before his plan ever gets off the ground.

I thought Wonder Woman was really well done, mainly because I'm already familiar with the character, but this is probably a poor introduction for those who aren't. The funny thing about the film is that on one hand it wants to act as a springboard for all the other DC characters, but on the other hand the only people who would really get most of it would be those who are already familiar with them. Kinda defeats the purpose. In terms of all the JL teases, the only one which really worked was Wonder Woman's photo. They should have just left it at that, since she actually has a role in the film. The Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg stuff is just very randomly, and some of it felt pretty cheap and rather lazily thrown together. The Knightmare sequence should probably have been extended as a stand alone extra instead. There was no reason at all for it to be a part of the actual movie. It's really cool looking, and it gives a glimpse as to what sort of future the Justice League would want to prevent, but there's nothing at all connecting it to any of the actual events in the film it is in. Really odd decision.

The character scenes in BvS far surpass Man of Steel, but the action does feel like a step back. That's not to say there isn't cool action in it, but it feels like for most of the movie, action isn't really the point. The psychology that leads to violence is a big theme, but the actual violence is done in such a casual and often cruel way that it is hard to find it cool. The only straight up superhero action is in the final Doomsday climax, which I felt was completely unnecessary. Like how I felt MoS should have ended with Zod just sucked into the Phantom Zone with the others, I felt BvS should have ended with Batman saying Martha Kent, and Superman capturing Luthor. The pro-longed final action sequence serves little relevance to the overall narrative arc other than to add more destruction porn and artificially lead into the Death of Superman. It almost feels like the only reason Snyder wanted to do that at all is just so he can shoot that one scene at the end where the flag if folded at the military funeral and then rested on the black coffin with the Superman symbol. It's an amazing shot, but ultimately pointless since we know he'll be back next year in the JL movie.

I didn't have a problem with the really odd Luthor take at all, but I do feel that the script was really superficial about it. He was portrayed in such an insane way that it was clear he had mental problems. Probably schizophrenia, but yet they never really do anything with it or provide the character with more depth than his insanity resulting in a big cave troll destroying two cities. A huge missed opportunity there I think.

The most memorable parts of the movie will probably be the first 30 minutes or so of the film, along with the moment in the final fight where Wonder Woman assembles and the theme kicks in. That's one seriously awesome music track. The fight might have been pointless, but the audio was glorious.

I'm glad duckroll is on my team. Good movie was good.

Sorry so many of you couldn't find a way to have fun like us. It's not perfect to be sure but it seems like some of you are resonating in the echo chamber. Too bad. For some of you, anyway.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Knightmare stuff wasn't necessary at all, IMO. Cut those 5 minutes out and you're not really losing anything.

It wasn't really necessary but I still loved the scene. I kinda wish they hadn't shown the Omega symbol in the marketing. Seeing that for the first time in the cinema would have been great.

 

[Vazduh]

also superman's death....so what does this mean for clark kent? will clark kent never come back? how do you explain your rise from the grave? do they have the gall to actually give him a new name/identity?

Isn't it funny that both Batman and Wonder Woman could have driven the Kryptonite spear into Doomsday instead of Superman?

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

My biggest frustration with the Knightmare sequence is how it's implemented. It didn't need to just randomly pop out of nowhere to an audience that has no context, followed by a screaming guy in a portal. Like... just have Flash show up or don't. Just have him show up in the Batcave, ragged as fuck and out of breath, explain what happens in the future, then fade away or something because he can't hold himself in the past for too long. When that scene was playing out, I get what's happening. "Okay, so in this apocalyptic future, Supes went tyrannical and joined with Darkseid, Bats is a resistance fighter which, hey, makes sense why he'd be using guns..."

Like I get all that. But the audience who doesn't know all these DC references? They're going to be completely lost.

Like almost everything in this movie, I get why it's there, I just don't know why it's the way it is.

Wow is that what the dream was about?? I looked over at my friend and said "OK what the hell is going on?"

 

[The Silver]

i have about plenty of movies. lone ranger, miami vice, hulk etc.

snyder isn't as talented as those directors (well certainly not mann or ang lee) and i will absolutely never like this as much as i do miami vice.

but this can probably be one of those kinds of movies that may get a second look in the future. snyder fucked up a lot by cramming too many arcs in and WB had to force their justice league stuff as well, but this is also the most experimental superhero movie i've ever seen since hulk. and i kind of admire how out there he went with it all.

even modifying the 'cemented' moral characters of batman and superman. the last guy who did that was burton and he got hell for it for years.

i'm probably gonna be one of those 'speed racer' guys for this movie in a few years. i'm getting the sense that just might happen.

i probably would have felt that way about Hulk if i was older when i saw it

 

[Alienous]

"Could I throw this spear at Doomsday. You can throw spears, right?"

"No, Clark, you can't"

"No, I think I can. I was also thinking about Zod, I could have flew to take him away from the civilians he was threatening"

"Just... just plunge the spear into Doomsday and die Clark"

"... Ok. Whatever you say, Zack"

 

[Discotheque]

i probably would have felt that way about Hulk if i was older when i saw it

i was a kid when i saw that and miami vice. absolutely hated them. it took me a few years to rewatch them and grow to especially love the latter movie.

i'd like to think i have a more open mind now so while i don't really like this movie much i can also see the potential it has, i think i'm being a bit too optimistic about it though. there are some very glaring problems here as well. particularly the pacing/editing.

 

[DrROBschiz]

"Could I throw this spear at Doomsday. You can throw spears, right?"

"No, Clark, you can't"

"No, I think I can. I was also thinking about Zod, I could have flew to take him away from the civilians he was threatening"

"Just... just plunge the spear into Doomsday and die Clark"

"... Ok. Whatever you say, Zack"

Lots of comic movies/stories are plot driven

Its nice to have Logic and reasonable progression to ground the story but that clearly wasnt the intent with BvS

Its a pretty messy movie

 

[Atomic Odin]

I just didn't see the benefit of adding both Knightmare & future flash's warning one after the another, especially when the plot was still growing. It was just too much in too little time to be able to comprehend at that moment in time, perhaps it should had been shown later or in the next movie entirely (the Flash's warning I mean, you could still tie Knightmare as Bruce thinking about Superman's tyrannical rule)

 

[KingBroly]

Superman hears Lois falling

Superman can't hear his mom crying in terror

#Logic

 

[Dreams-Visions]

also superman's death....so what does this mean for clark kent? will clark kent never come back? how do you explain your rise from the grave? do they have the gall to actually give him a new name/identity?

I don't remember how this was handled in the comic books. Anyone?

Isn't it funny that both Batman and Wonder Woman could have driven the Kryptonite spear into Doomsday instead of Superman?

Wonder Woman had to restrain him and Bat was one swift punch away from death and nothing more than a distraction. In fact, he spent the entire fight functionally useless running like a buffalo from a Lion (until the moment to hit Doomsday with his last can of kryptonite spray was right). Batman trying a frontal assault would have left him with a broken body. See: Superman. Crushed in his tin suit. That leaves just Superman or WW to handle the spear and one of those two names was busy holding him as we already know. The math gets really simple now, no? Even under the influence of the kryptonite, he found the strength he needed to deliver the blow and drive it through before the end.

Superman hears Lois falling

Superman can't hear his mom crying in terror

#Logic

Lois screaming in the same city vs mom screaming in Kansas.

ymmv of course, but based on the two movies I think it's fair to say that proximity matters.

 

[Alienous]

I want Frank Miller to tell Zack he doesn't understand Batman, because he doesn't.

Frank Miller's Batman didn't kill. "Rubber bullets", Zack. One of the main elements of The Dark Knight Returns was Batman's internal conflict over breaking his no-killing rule for the Joker. He doesn't kill anyone in the "I believe you" scene either; there's no bullet hole in the head of the person he shot, and he isn't charged with murder by the police (and they charge him with everything they can). He shoots to wound, not to kill, you numpty.

Don't pin your nonsense handling of Batman on someone who takes the character to the extremes, but always stays true to the essence. Frank understood Batman, and you don't.

 

[AxeMan]

Yep. After two days of reflection, I love it too. It completely subverted my expectations of what it was going to be, the tone was relentlessly intense and I applaud Snyder for holding tight to his vision and not making a cookie cutter film. These characters are developing, slowly, but they are. I totally understand why Supes isn't the big blue Boy Scout yet. It makes sense in this world they have created.

I love that Terrio has attempted to show real consequences for all of these super hero exploits. The opening 20 minutes was utterly brilliant.

I cannot wait for the longer cut, I'm hoping that the release of that will allow these characters more time to breathe on film and hopefully temper some of the absolutely hysterical critical reaction this movie is getting. I find it really sad that Ben Affleck is on Fallon warning people that this isn't a movie for critics. He was simply brilliant in this and should be proud of his take on Batman.

I haven't seen the movie yet but have read a load of comments about it here. From what I'm reading I reckon I'll like the movie.
It seems the only legitimate criticisms are:
editing.

That's it. All the others about length, the dark tone, casting are very subjective. I'm happy it hasn't gone the Avengers route, they are forgettable movies - the lot of them. I hope I get a chance to see it at the theatre. If anything the problem will be Superman, he just isn't an interesting character and none of the SM movies have been very good (though I caught the last 1 hour of of MoS the other day and it wasn't as bad as I remember)

 

[KingBroly]

Lois screaming in the same city vs mom screaming in Kansas.

ymmv of course.

He was in the Mountains somewhere in Antarctica...or Colorado.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I haven't seen the movie yet but have read a load of comments about it here. From what I'm reading I reckon I'll like the movie.
It seems the only legitimate criticisms are:
editing.

That's it. All the others about length, the dark tone, casting are very subjective. I'm happy it hasn't gone the Avengers route, they are forgettable movies - the lot of them. I hope I get a chance to see it at the theatre

Man get the fuck out of this thread. These sour pusses could make anyone more pessimistic and overly sensitive to the flaws. Go and enjoy it man. Lots of us had a blast.

He was in the Mountains somewhere in Antarctica...or Colorado.

If you're referring to Lois falling, we don't know where Supes was, though one can deduce that he was on his way back after his time away. We've seen him fly fast, but not fast enough to cover hundreds of miles in the 2 or 3 seconds Lois was falling. The logical conclusion is he was close to or in the city.

There's no reason for you to assume otherwise.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

i have about plenty of movies. lone ranger, miami vice, hulk etc.

snyder isn't as talented as those directors (well certainly not mann or ang lee) and i will absolutely never like this as much as i do miami vice.

but this can probably be one of those kinds of movies that may get a second look in the future. snyder fucked up a lot by cramming too many arcs in and WB had to force their justice league stuff as well, but this is also the most experimental superhero movie i've ever seen since hulk. and i kind of admire how out there he went with it all. even modifying the 'cemented' moral characters of batman and superman. the last guy who did that was burton and he got hell for it for years.

i'm probably gonna be one of those 'speed racer' guys for this movie in a few years. i'm getting the sense that just might happen.

I haven't seen the movie yet but have read a load of comments about it here. From what I'm reading I reckon I'll like the movie.
It seems the only legitimate criticisms are:
editing.

That's it. All the others about length, the dark tone, casting are very subjective. I'm happy it hasn't gone the Avengers route, they are forgettable movies - the lot of them. I hope I get a chance to see it at the theatre. If anything the problem will be Superman, he just isn't an interesting character and none of the SM movies have been very good (though I caught the last 1 hour of of MoS the other day and it wasn't as bad as I remember)

Go catch the movie, there is a big chance that you will love it.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Man get the fuck out of this thread. These sour pusses could make anyone more pessimistic and overly sensitive to the flaws. Go and enjoy it man. Lots of us had a blast.

If you're referring to Lois falling, we don't know where Supes was, though one can deduce that he was on his way back after his time away. We've seen him fly fast, but not fast enough to cover hundreds of miles in the 2 or 3 seconds Lois was falling. The logical conclusion is he was close to or in the city.

There's no reason for you to assume otherwise.

I didnt hate it but I didnt love it

Thankfully I just watched it and judged it myself

Critics werent totally off base and the movie is very bizarrely put together

Turn off your brain and enjoy the action

 

[Alienous]

They fucked up the Death of Superman because of trying to avoid Man of Steel complaints.

Imagine how much better that would have played if Doomsday kept bringing the fight back to the city. Batman sees, and now understands, how the collateral damage wasn't Superman's fault. Superman looks around at terrified pedestrians, beaten and bloodied. Bats passes Wonder Woman the spear, she throws it at Doomsday, and Superman plunges it into Doomsday's heart as he also succumbs to his injuries due to the kryptonite.

But instead you don't get the importance of Superman's actions. This is where you show civilians in danger, Zack, and Superman doing all he can to save them.

 

[AxeMan]

Man get the fuck out of this thread. These sour pusses could make anyone more pessimistic and overly sensitive to the flaws. Go and enjoy it man. Lots of us had a blast.
.

Go catch the movie, there is a big chance that you will love it.

I want to catch it, have to find the time. I reckon it'll be right up my alley

 

[DrROBschiz]

The fucked up the Death of Superman because of trying to avoid Man of Steel complaints.

Imagine how much better that would have played if Doomsday kept bringing the fight back to the city. Batman sees, and now understands, how the collateral damage wasn't Superman's fault. Superman looks around at terrified pedestrians, beaten and bloodied. Bats passes Wonder Woman the spear, she throws it at Doomsday, and Superman plunges it into Doomsday's heart as he also succumbs to his injuries due to the kryptonite.

But instead you don't get the importance of Superman's actions. This is where you show civilians in danger, Zack, and Superman doing all he can to save them.

I like this idea

but i mean if we wanted to retro the story to fill the holes, logic gaps etc... the list would get reallly long

Like what was Lex going to do if Batman succeeded in killing Superman. Have doomsday destroy the world? Abort the process of it being born? Was that even possible

Ya know what... We arent supposed to think about it and ask questions. Thats missing the whole point

 

[Atomic Odin]

I like this idea

but i mean if we wanted to retro the story to fill the holes, logic gaps etc... the list would get reallly long

Like what was Lex going to do if Batman succeeded in killing Superman. Have doomsday destroy the world? Abort the process of it being born? Was that even possible

Ya know what... We arent supposed to think about it and ask questions. Thats missing the whole point

Well he did clearly said "If Man won't kill god..."

It borders on the nitpick territory though for me, you could raise complaint like that for many movies. Its not just exclusive to BvS.

 

[duckroll]

There are two motivations (granted, they're big ones) which don't make much sense in the film - Batman's motivation to kill Superman, and Luthor's overall... plan in general. The former I think is more problematic under critical analysis because Bruce Wayne for all his cynicism and rage is still supposed to be a rational and intelligent guy. He should have been able to easily figure out that Luthor was behind it all and that while he fears Superman, this isn't the time or place to go to this extreme.

The Luthor thing is easier to rationalize. He's insane. Not psychotic, insane. Mentally damaged. He clearly has huge hangups about authority, power, and the divine. His plans are not rational, they are vindictive, petty, and often shallow. This isn't a mature calculating Lex Luthor, this is a young punk who inherited power from someone he does not respect, and has total disdain for both elected and cosmic authority. What was his plan if Batman killed Superman? Maybe he would have terminated the Doomsday birth, maybe he would have done it anyway just to see what happens. What was his plan if Doomsday killed Superman and no one could destroy him after that? Whoops. Considering how he seems to know Darkseid and other cosmic evils are now drawn to Earth because Superman the guardian is dead, and he doesn't really care too much about it, I don't think we need to think too hard on what his "plans" amounted to. He's nuts. And that's okay. Maybe.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Having seen the movie, I think the outrage over Batman's methods (particularly whether or not he kills) is overblown. It's very well established early on that Bruce has changed; he has become "cruel" as he realises cleaning up Gotham is no different than "pulling out a weed - another just pops out".

The first time he kills is the nightmare sequence and context is important here. This is a world whereby Superman has gone rogue and humanity is enslaved. When Batman's only solution, Kryptonite, is taken away from his grasp, he is forced to watch "man" being executed even as they served Darkseid/Superman. The world is dead. He has lost everything.

Men with guns approach him, and the first reaction people have is, "But why does he kill?" What people need to actually consider firstly is whether or not Batman could kill were he in a situation where he felt the fate of the world was in his hands? Could a man who feels guilt and constant loss turn cruel? Could Batman actually turn into a Punisher-lite figure in that scenario?

It would be silly, and almost unrealistic, were he not to. This is again after all a film where Superman concedes that he may have to kill Batman, where "not all men stay good."

In every scene where Batman kills, or triggers a death, there is a context established to paint him not as the default, original Batman, but one that has been changed. In that sense, it is not an attempt by Snyder to force us to accept and embrace a new Batman but rather he is no longer the same.

When Clark dies, Bruce has a moment to reflect. He says he had "failed him". Perhaps Bruce is beginning to realise that "men are still good" and Clark's death has inspired him to not give in cruelty?

I think it would be helpful if people were actually honest about what the film is trying to do with these characters rather than reject it forth-right.

 

[duckroll]

I think it's worth noting that in the Knightmare sequence, Batman only takes out his gun and starts killing everyone when he hears his own people outside getting shot and killed. At this point, it's basically a war, so being upset that Batman is using a gun to kill people in a dream sequence where there's a gang war shootout between Batman's people and Darkseid(?)'s people in a wasteland.... is sorta missing the point.

Batman killing so casually while in the Batmobile and the Batwing is much more problematic for his portrayal, but not from a psychological aspect, rather from how the film just depicts it so casually like it's a cool videogame. That is something I would pin on Snyder for failing to direct such scenes as he should. They should be horrifying and make people question Batman's methods - which I think Snyder successfully directs in the introduction to Batman, with cops being willing to shoot at him because they don't really know whose side he is on anymore. That was great.

 

[Alienous]

Batman's hang up is not seeing Superman as human. It's either stupid; Batman doesn't pay attention to when Superman saves cats out of trees, or it's because Superman just doesn't do much saving people.

And Lex doesn't believe in benevolent gods because his dad beat him up, so he wants to prove that Superman isn't one, by putting him in a situation where he shows Superman isn't benevolent (killing someone for personal reasons) or he isn't a god (being killed by something more powerful than him).

 

[Fraxin]

I'm glad duckroll is on my team. Good movie was good.

Sorry so many of you couldn't find a way to have fun like us. It's not perfect to be sure but it seems like some of you are resonating in the echo chamber. Too bad. For some of you, anyway.

I think people were expecting a Marvel movie that is more action oriented and filled with cheesy jokes, and I'm happy we didn't get that.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I think people were expecting a Marvel movie that is more action oriented and filled with cheesy jokes, and I'm happy we didn't get that.

Yes it's so deep and meaningful in contrast. About as deep and intrepid as a jar of piss.

Don't throw stones in glass houses where the glass is about a centimetre thick. And the house is underwater. And there are big sharks willing to commit manslaughter floating around the house.

 

[FunnyBunny]

Batman v Superman has a lot of problems—I won't rehash all of them—but there's one issue I have to address: Batman's bloodlust.

Yes, Batman kills in this movie. I'm not happy about it. But I'm more upset that he murders with enthusiasm and glee.

The conflict between Batman and Superman can be boiled down to this: Batman, fearing Superman's power could one day be turned against humanity, decides its his legacy to "destroy" it. To murder Superman not because of what he has done but what he might do. He's preemptive.

Rather than accept this "burden" with sadness, he revels in it. Before the fight—before the murder—he's grinning and snarling. "Here I am," he says. Batman is looking forward to this fight; not to teach Superman a lesson but to murder him.

Batman doesn't just kill in this movie. He is a killer; a murderer who premeditates his crime and takes delight in what he does. The dragging of a car by the Batmobile is excessive and shows extreme disregard for life. It's much more than "killing by proxy." He tortures and toys with his victims in sick ways. He's a sociopath.

All of this says nothing about innocents caught in Batman's crosshairs. He (presumably) hurts innocents during his break-in at LexCorp.

Ben Affleck does great work with the material he's given. He's my favorite Batman on film, actually. But I can't ignore that the movie as a whole is a gross betrayal of Batman's ethos.

 

[DrROBschiz]

There are two motivations (granted, they're big ones) which don't make much sense in the film - Batman's motivation to kill Superman, and Luthor's overall... plan in general. The former I think is more problematic under critical analysis because Bruce Wayne for all his cynicism and rage is still supposed to be a rational and intelligent guy. He should have been able to easily figure out that Luthor was behind it all and that while he fears Superman, this isn't the time or place to go to this extreme.

The Luthor thing is easier to rationalize. He's insane. Not psychotic, insane. Mentally damaged. He clearly has huge hangups about authority, power, and the divine. His plans are not rational, they are vindictive, petty, and often shallow. This isn't a mature calculating Lex Luthor, this is a young punk who inherited power from someone he does not respect, and has total disdain for both elected and cosmic authority. What was his plan if Batman killed Superman? Maybe he would have terminated the Doomsday birth, maybe he would have done it anyway just to see what happens. What was his plan if Doomsday killed Superman and no one could destroy him after that? Whoops. Considering how he seems to know Darkseid and other cosmic evils are now drawn to Earth because Superman the guardian is dead, and he doesn't really care too much about it, I don't think we need to think too hard on what his "plans" amounted to. He's nuts. And that's okay. Maybe.

It desperately needs a recut

It would have made more sense for Luthor to get teh ship, get Zod, experiment, learn a bunch of stuff from teh ship, learn about kryptonite from the ship

Keep digging through the knowledge, fail one attempt, go crazy.

His dive into madness should have been a more logical process and have more time devoted to it

 

[Fraxin]

Yes it's so deep and meaningful in contrast. About as deep and intrepid as a jar of piss.

Don't throw stones in glass houses where the glass is about a centimetre thick. And the house is underwater. And there are big sharks willing to commit manslaughter floating around the house.

I never said it was so deep, and neither did I say that the movie wasn't a mess. All I said was I was glad that it wasn't a typical Marvel movie that is filled with cheesy jokes, since I'm getting tired of those.

 

[kmag]

There are two motivations (granted, they're big ones) which don't make much sense in the film - Batman's motivation to kill Superman, and Luthor's overall... plan in general. The former I think is more problematic under critical analysis because Bruce Wayne for all his cynicism and rage is still supposed to be a rational and intelligent guy. He should have been able to easily figure out that Luthor was behind it all and that while he fears Superman, this isn't the time or place to go to this extreme.

The Luthor thing is easier to rationalize. He's insane. Not psychotic, insane. Mentally damaged. He clearly has huge hangups about authority, power, and the divine. His plans are not rational, they are vindictive, petty, and often shallow. This isn't a mature calculating Lex Luthor, this is a young punk who inherited power from someone he does not respect, and has total disdain for both elected and cosmic authority. What was his plan if Batman killed Superman? Maybe he would have terminated the Doomsday birth, maybe he would have done it anyway just to see what happens. What was his plan if Doomsday killed Superman and no one could destroy him after that? Whoops. Considering how he seems to know Darkseid and other cosmic evils are now drawn to Earth because Superman the guardian is dead, and he doesn't really care too much about it, I don't think we need to think too hard on what his "plans" amounted to. He's nuts. And that's okay. Maybe.

Ultimately both Batman and Superman are plot stupid. In a similar fashion, Lois is plot smart or clairvoyant. Essentially though its just poor writing/and or poor editing/direction.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Ultimately both Batman and Superman are plot stupid. In a similar fashion, Lois is plot smart or clairvoyant. Essentially though its just poor writing/and or poor editing/direction.

Yup

Poor writing, editing and direction sums the movie's issues quite nicely

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I think it's worth noting that in the Knightmare sequence, Batman only takes out his gun and starts killing everyone when he hears his own people outside getting shot and killed. At this point, it's basically a war, so being upset that Batman is using a gun to kill people in a dream sequence where there's a gang war shootout between Batman's people and Darkseid(?)'s people in a wasteland.... is sorta missing the point.

Batman killing so casually while in the Batmobile and the Batwing is much more problematic for his portrayal, but not from a psychological aspect, rather from how the film just depicts it so casually like it's a cool videogame. That is something I would pin on Snyder for failing to direct such scenes as he should. They should be horrifying and make people question Batman's methods - which I think Snyder successfully directs in the introduction to Batman, with cops being willing to shoot at him because they don't really know whose side he is on anymore. That was great.

I don't know, I don't really have a problem with Batman killing in combat. If he had someone subdued and killed him in cold blood, then yeah, but combat is different.

 

[Alienous]

Yep, Funnybunny, I agree.

The issue is less that Batman kills and more that he does it so nonchalantly, and that someone wrote him like that. Frank Miller's Batman didn't kill, so this Batman is a creation of the film.

I think it takes away from the conflict of Batman killing Superman. I like the idea that he'll break his rule to kill what he perceives as an alien. Not a "man". Like putting down a dog. And it's only when he realises that Superman is human, begging Batman to save his mother's life, that Batman realises he's as human as anyone.

But that arc is obscured by his general willingness to kill. There was no leap he had to make on killing Superman where there should have been.

 

[Sadist]

I think people were expecting a Marvel movie that is more action oriented and filled with cheesy jokes, and I'm happy we didn't get that.

Lol what

I think no one expected that. No one

 

[FunnyBunny]

I don't know, I don't really have a problem with Batman killing in combat. If he had someone subdued and killed him in cold blood, then yeah, but combat is different.

Batman had Superman subdued and planned to kill him in cold blood until Lois stepped in. This film's portrayal of Batman has serious, unforgivable (to me) problems.

 

[kmag]

Batman v Superman has a lot of problems—I won't rehash all of them—but there's one issue I have to address: Batman's bloodlust.

Yes, Batman kills in this movie. I'm not happy about it. But I'm more upset that he murders with enthusiasm and glee.

The conflict between Batman and Superman can be boiled down to this: Batman, fearing Superman's power could one day be turned against humanity, decides its his legacy to "destroy" it. To murder Superman not because of what he has done but what he might do. He's preemptive.

Rather than accept this "burden" with sadness, he revels in it. Before the fight—before the murder—he's grinning and snarling. "Here I am," he says. Batman is looking forward to this fight; not to teach Superman a lesson but to murder him.

Batman doesn't just kill in this movie. He is a killer; a murderer who premeditates his crime and takes delight in what he does. The dragging of a car by the Batmobile is excessive and shows extreme disregard for life. It's much more than "killing by proxy." He tortures and toys with his victims in sick ways. He's a sociopath.

All of this says nothing about innocents caught in Batman's crosshairs. He (presumably) hurts innocents during his break-in at LexCorp.

Ben Affleck does great work with the material he's given. He's my favorite Batman on film, actually. But I can't ignore that the movie as a whole is a gross betrayal of Batman's ethos.

Which is exactly why the Martha nonsense is badly written trash and deserving of the ridicule it's getting. Batman has explicitly set out his logic about the threat Superman poses and what needs to be done. Three seconds of "humanising" that threat doesn't change it at all, neither does realising Lex has been manipulating things. All that proves is that Superman can be manipulated, making him even more of a threat.

A rational cold blooded killer would have ended Superman, and then moved on to deal with Lex.

 

[crazyrabbits]

Initial thoughts from the first half of the film:

This is a dumpster fire in virtually every sense of the term. I'm not even sure I know where to begin with this, but I'll try.

Man of Steel. I know it has its flaws (and there are quite a few - it's oddly-paced at times, leaves that dangling destruction question unanswered and has a few bizarre character moments), but I enjoyed it just the same. Hell, I've defended it at points, and I've always pointed out that Clark was just starting out and doing the best he can to contain the situation that occurs during the film's climax. I considered it to be a decent starting point for a sequel or further adventures.

But this? Oh, Christ...

Let me start with the obvious. The film is badly edited. It might be the most poorly-edited theatrical cut of a film I've seen since Kingdom of Heaven. It's even worse than I thought it would be going in. There is no cohesiveness or interconnectivity with any of these scenes. No establishing shots. Just a series of rapid-fire setpieces that continues through the first half of the film. One minute, we're at a lab in the middle of Metropolis. The next, a fight club in Gotham. Then, to the Daily Planet offices. Then Luthor's study. Then we launch into a dream sequence that segues into Bruce in the present, and then onto Lois out somewhere interviewing the general from the first movie. If there's one element above all else that kills the flow of the film, it's the editing.

Tonally, it's all over the place. I'm not just talking about the "darker and edgier" look, but it veers from cartoony to ultra-serious in the span of minutes. We're asked to believe that the world that was slowly built up in MoS is now not only filled with meta-humans, but has a vigilante who's introduced hanging on a wall near a guy he's branded, said vigilante having a dream that rolls right from apocalyptic to campy science-fiction, and sandwiched in-between all this is a weird antagonist who's deliberately over-the-top(?) and espionage/journalism subplots.

The first twenty minutes are admittedly pretty damn good, and the film feels like a logical follow-up to the previous installment. Then, things start getting weird - we see Bruce stuck on the wall in the background while a police officer is investigating a crime scene. Lois somehow found a bullet that got... lodged in the journal she was carrying. Luthor has the capability to carry out a hit in Africa using private contractors/terrorists, but gets so incensed about not getting a permit to obtain Kryptonite that he decides to bomb a Senate hearing.

Most damning of all is Clark. What happened to this guy? The man who said, "I've gotta find a job where I can keep my ear to the ground, where people won't look twice when I want to go somewhere dangerous, and ask questions." This time around, Clark has turned into Mr. Downer. A guy who walks around with a perpetual frown on his face, who has apparently become obsessed with promoting his alter-ego in the Daily Planet and gets into arguments with Perry White over it. It's not even clear why White hasn't fired him yet, as they're constantly arguing about whether Clark should cover sports or Superman.

Affleck as Bruce Wayne is fine. Nothing spectacular and nothing that really sets him apart from Bale's version, but the way his Batman is introduced and is characterized is fucking bizarre. As said before, he's first seen hanging off a wall at a crime scene, and the next time we see him is in his future/dream incarnation where he demonstrates his moves. His Batmobile just seems to come out of nowhere, with no setup or reveal. He straight-up mows a guy in the back of a vehicle down with a minigun at one point. There's hardly anything about his character that feels organic. It feels like a screenwriter had a bunch of boxes they had to check on a list to establish the character, but they forgot about making it believable or well-integrated in the plot.

Every few minutes, there was something pulling me out of the film. FutureFlash and his fucking ridiculous spacesuit. The whole Knightmare scene. Cavill looking nonplussed as the Senate room burns down around him. Perry's rants on the media being irrelevant and "looking on Dropbox" for Clark's copy (and probably written by a screenwriter who has a superficial understanding of journalism). The giant bat dream (shades of Batman Forever's notable deleted scene). The musical beats that kick in when Lex is walking into the crashed Kryptonian ship and Bruce sees the old photo of Diana. That goofy fucking haircut on the General Zod corpse.

I could see this working as an AU/Flashpoint-type film, but the way the film is presented and plotted out is all over the place. I'll give my thoughts on the actual Bat/Supes fight and last half sometime later.

 

[duckroll]

I don't know, I don't really have a problem with Batman killing in combat. If he had someone subdued and killed him in cold blood, then yeah, but combat is different.

Is it really "combat" when you're flying down on a plane unannounced and gunning everyone down in the entrance? That's the sort of casual murder which I think we can do without, especially in a film which is already so bleak and heavy handed with talk of rage, revenge, and hopelessness.