I'm loving how this thread is bringing out the nutty hyperbole starting from post 1.
France considers new ratings and incentives to combat sexism in video games
- Thread starter Spring Drive
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I'm loving how this thread is bringing out the nutty hyperbole starting from post 1.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
It demonstrates that gamers don't understand censorship.
GhostTrick
Banned
Parliament time isnt infinite. They've been already wasting too much time of parliament time. Considering not many are here to vote... I think discussing content of video games considering the matters happening in the country is laughable.
Obliterator
Member
Ahhh see now this is a bit of a game changer then. They are going for more clearly defined specific traits of overt sexism. That makes me much more comfortable with the idea. Thanks for this post
CadetMahoney
Member
Speaking of Europe and censorship I have no idea what to make of this (off topic but slightly related I guess).
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8189/social-media-censorship
Chezzymann
Member
I mean if they're putting a "damsel in distress" label that's fine, didn't see anything about that in the article. Just the 18+ rating stuff. I think it would be a little extreme to slap an 18+ rating on anything they deem is sexist. Although I'd hope theyd just go for the extreme examples and not harmless stuff like Mario.
Yup, this makes total sense. Treating sexism like you would any other type of discrimination is good.
ScherzoPrime
Member
I think though that France and Europe in general have a cultural attitude of prohibiting speech that is considered disruptive or dangerous to the public good. I disagree with creating such distinctions personally, but I think it makes sense that they'd take that step.
Have you even read my previous post? I'm not saying that it's at all difficult to define sexism or detect sexist content (it's extremely easy, in fact), I'm saying that an objective definition of sexism would basically include a lot of things that our society still takes for granted (and that many people may not even realise are sexist) and that excluding any and every bit of content that's sexist would basically mean you'd have to set your game in a fantasy world where society has succeeded in conquering sexism (which is certainly a world I'd love to live in but it's also a world that's far removed from our modern reality). The thing that is difficult, arbitrary, vague, whatever you want to call it, is drawing the line between stuff that's sexist and unwanted by our current society and the stuff that's sexist but still considered "okay", anyway, because excluding it would make it impossible to create accurate portrayals of modern-day society. So yeah, the question to ask isn't "what is sexism" but rather "what is the type of content that would disqualify you from receiving financial incentives".
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
"Big budget" videogames don't need these sort of subsidies, because in many cases where the funding comes from, and where the work is carried out are two entirely separate places.
If you are pouring millions into a project with an aim expressly to make millions more in profit, you are going to develop that project in the place where the labour cost/quality equation lines up best to support your goals.
This is probably the most ironically salient point in this thread. Though not about what you are directly referring to.
What I think matters the most is that the message spreads amongst developers that sexism needs to be seriously discussed and not shrugged off.
Whether or not a law passes that favorizes or penalizes game studios for how they choose to portray women is not the only way for it to make a positive difference.
Amidst the current climate surrounding sexism, anything that encourages debate (as in civil discussions, not lashing out) and that leads to developers reacting about it is a great step forward on its own.
I think there is room for the French government to take action, as long as it doesn't involve censorship. In the end, true progress will always come directly from those creating art and that's what they should encourage.
To me, that should never mean female game characters cannot be sexy, but if the industry's default vision is that "woman = sexy" and anything else is the odd one out, we should make an effort so that it doesn't keep repeating itself every new generation.
Anyway let's hope such noble efforts will lead to a nice pay off. It's already quite satisfying to see game studios not following a default "industry standard" pattern (Dontnod with Remember Me and especially Life is Strange, Arkane with Dishonored 2).
Whether or not a law passes that favorizes or penalizes game studios for how they choose to portray women is not the only way for it to make a positive difference.
Amidst the current climate surrounding sexism, anything that encourages debate (as in civil discussions, not lashing out) and that leads to developers reacting about it is a great step forward on its own.
I think there is room for the French government to take action, as long as it doesn't involve censorship. In the end, true progress will always come directly from those creating art and that's what they should encourage.
To me, that should never mean female game characters cannot be sexy, but if the industry's default vision is that "woman = sexy" and anything else is the odd one out, we should make an effort so that it doesn't keep repeating itself every new generation.
Anyway let's hope such noble efforts will lead to a nice pay off. It's already quite satisfying to see game studios not following a default "industry standard" pattern (Dontnod with Remember Me and especially Life is Strange, Arkane with Dishonored 2).
It doesn't demonstrate anything because noone expressed that sentiment about China in this thread.
The "which games qualify for tax breaks" is probably going to go for a more nuanced approach, and in all likelihood, knowing how similar situations are handled, there will be a board of people making decisions, and it will be possible for the devs to appeal the decision or argue a certain stance. If Sega wants to argue that Bayonetta is a positive role model and is someone for girls to look up to, they are certainly welcome to try, and if their arguments have merit they may succeed. And I'm sure that anyone not passing their first attempt at the tax breaks would get a specific list of what the problems are and probably have an avenue to consult for suggestions on how to correct them.
scoobidoo112
Member
I'm disappointed at the amount of people that are unwilling to see things from the other perspective or at least think about the possible consequences of such regulations and / or incentives, especially considering our global history of suppressing freedom of speech and artistic expression and how hard we had to fight as a society to gain those freedoms, only to now have them chipped away at for the sake of "protecting people from opinions or expressions of freedom they do not like".
Sexism isn't caused by videogames, nor can videogames make sexism go away. You educate people from an early age about equality and treating others with respect, and as a result of said transforming, progressing society, videogames will both lead that effort or at least evolve with it. There is no need for any kind of regulation that limits or negatively impacts our freedom of speech and artistic expression, as our society is perfectly capable of moving towards our shared goal without it and without us entering that slippery slope, as much as many of you may hate even considering the slippery slope. Our governments are authoritarian as it is and I do not want to give them an inch.
I think it is worth pointing out some fundamental cultural differences between American and French attitudes. France, and for that matter, much of the western world does not put anywhere near as much stock in Freedom of Speech as America does. This is reflected in the laws and even constitutions, like the fact that denying the holocaust can get you arrested in France, where it is legal in the US.
If you look at this with the American mindset that any impediment to freedom of speech is bad, then yeah this might seem like a slippery slope to government censorship. But if you look at this from a more European mindset, this type of thing is not unprecedented, and probably not seen as the road to government censorship.
So I would just ask that NA gaf keep in mind that views of what is and isn't censorship is heavily bound by culture. While America holds Freedom of Speech on its highest pedestal, most other countries do not.
If you look at this with the American mindset that any impediment to freedom of speech is bad, then yeah this might seem like a slippery slope to government censorship. But if you look at this from a more European mindset, this type of thing is not unprecedented, and probably not seen as the road to government censorship.
So I would just ask that NA gaf keep in mind that views of what is and isn't censorship is heavily bound by culture. While America holds Freedom of Speech on its highest pedestal, most other countries do not.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Again these aren't obtuse or vague examples. They're incredibly transparent in their use.
Yes. Absolutely.
Yes because stripping for no reason is absolutely a positive portrayal of women. FFS all it takes is a look at the OT.
You'd be incredibly hardpressed to find a ton of people who consider the examples you provided as positive portrayals of women in games.
QUOTE=Carcetti;205625669]I'm loving how this thread is bringing out the nutty hyperbole starting from post 1.[/QUOTE]
Every thread like this you always have people resorting to absolutely implausible scenarios, "What if this incredibly specific thing happens?!"
Okay, so re-reading the OP, the proposed measures seem to be:
1.) Expand the PEGI discrimination tag to also include sex discrimination instead of just ethnic and religious discrimination. This is a label that gets you a PEGI 18 rating and has some advertising implications like no primetime tv commercials, but already exists for ethnic and religious discrimination.
2.) Give new, additional tax incentives to games that promote a positive view of women, as assessed by currently unknown criteria, but it's been implied it would include BG&E and Dishonored 2 (where the leading woman is optional).
Would that be a safe summary to add into the OP?
1.) Expand the PEGI discrimination tag to also include sex discrimination instead of just ethnic and religious discrimination. This is a label that gets you a PEGI 18 rating and has some advertising implications like no primetime tv commercials, but already exists for ethnic and religious discrimination.
2.) Give new, additional tax incentives to games that promote a positive view of women, as assessed by currently unknown criteria, but it's been implied it would include BG&E and Dishonored 2 (where the leading woman is optional).
Would that be a safe summary to add into the OP?
NinjamicWZ
Banned
It's possible to answer math questions incorrectly with what is called the wrong answer. When you reach the wrong conclusion you are wrong.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
Either no one is reading the actual article or a lot of "violent polemics" are outing themselves. Tax credit incentives and changing a clause in a rating system aren't censorship. If anything, people should be annoyed at how ineffectual these changes will surely end up being at portraying positive female characters and combating sexism in gaming.
GhostTrick
Banned
About PEGI, they should also revise it. I always found funny when I was a kid that Jak 2 had violence label, sex label and strong language label, that DQVIII had violence label and strong language label while GTA SA only had violence label.
Demoskinos
Member
An actual solution to the larger cultural systemic problem with sexism. You don't solve it with laws you solve it like he said with education.
Yes.
SolidSnakex
Member
I think this is a good summary as it breaks down specifically what they're talking about
What games so far have been labelled with the discrimination label --- for context of what it would take.
A lot of the argument here is "what does it take to get labelled as discriminatory, based on existing standards?"
Phawx
Member
Here's an interesting exercise. LASTFIGHT is a recently released PowerStone clone made by French developers. If this plan was put into effect, LASTFIGHT as it currently exists would not be eligible for tax credits and (at least in France) would have to be labeled as "Incites Sexism".
LASTFIGHT is a fighting game that has a cast of male & female characters and, naturally, since it contains the possibility of male characters fighting female characters, it has the ability of "reinforcing a narrative that commandeers and reduces women into a position of helplessness through violence."
Now, I don't know if the French devs (Piranaking) actually used government tax credits, but if they relied on them at all (and if this was actually a law already) they would probably have to reconsider what the cast composed of. An easy way would be to have a cast of either all male or all female characters.
I'm not sure female/female violence is considered sexist or not, (I suppose it would have to be scrutinized if it fell into the valley of "for the benefit of male gaze")
Alternatively, they could just fund the entire game themselves (which they probably did). Again, I don't know if they did or did not use French tax credits to help fund development of the game.
LASTFIGHT is a fighting game that has a cast of male & female characters and, naturally, since it contains the possibility of male characters fighting female characters, it has the ability of "reinforcing a narrative that commandeers and reduces women into a position of helplessness through violence."
Now, I don't know if the French devs (Piranaking) actually used government tax credits, but if they relied on them at all (and if this was actually a law already) they would probably have to reconsider what the cast composed of. An easy way would be to have a cast of either all male or all female characters.
I'm not sure female/female violence is considered sexist or not, (I suppose it would have to be scrutinized if it fell into the valley of "for the benefit of male gaze")
Alternatively, they could just fund the entire game themselves (which they probably did). Again, I don't know if they did or did not use French tax credits to help fund development of the game.
WaterAstro
Member
Both games portrayed women as an extremely strong character types. Both made them playable.
I think it's absolutely not sexist despite the few nudey bits.
Obliterator
Member
Cool. See this is the part I was always for was the tax breaks. The part that really worried me was the labeling and the advertising but the fact that the legislation makes it clear they are going after strong examples of sexism that are outright discrimination helps quite a bit.
Eden you are a damn fine poster but you are dodging a bit here. Sexism isn't 100% clear cut and I know that you know this. There is indeed nuance to quite a bit of it is all I'm saying and things aren't as clear as you are portraying here. Yes SOME cases are which are the overt ones that France seems to be targeting.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
That's what I take from it too, and it also probably won't hurt to link univbee's post
edit solidsnake was faster.
Would recommend changing the title. Can easily imagine many thoughts being "crack down= censorship".)
petran79
Banned
It happens in movies too. Eg movies that are ultra violent or feature violence against minors will unlikely get any government or EU funding in Europe
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
That's not my point but okay.
Do you want me to fully translate the French proposal? Might help for perspective.
Are you just making wild assumptions? If female characters are real characters like in most fighting games, it doesn't exactly "reinforcing a narrative that commandeers and reduces women into a position of helplessness through violence."
I think what they're talking about would be if the game makes a point of there being a helpless female NPC that you bash around.
Audioboxer
Member
A Link to the Past
Banned
If I read 2 + 2 as equaling 5, it would be a fault on my part. Words are not numbers - if someone poorly conveys their thoughts and are misinterpreted, the person needs to do better at conveying their thoughts in the future. A statement can be validly interpreted in a wide variety of ways theoretically, and it does not matter which interpretation is right - it matters that the statement was worded poorly enough that it was able to be misinterpreted.
If it relates to the fact that people are overreacting to this, it should be noted that the problem is people reacting to what is probably a vague headline.
"Prime time TV" suggests they can have TV adverts, just restricted to certain times and maybe channels.
Demoskinos
Member
I bet if you asked many of the people who worked on some of these projects even stuff like Assassin's Creed there would be a lot of people who would be very proud of their work and the ideas they put into it.
Even if they are commercial products that doesn't exclude the game from having a soul. Like fuck, look at the new DOOM game that is a game that was a very deliberate labor of love. And people CARED enough about the product to scrap an entirely finished game because they wanted to do the franchise justice.
I hate measures like this where the core idea is so hard to firmly determine.
A 'sexism' rating? What's the definition of sexism in games? Who determines whether a game is sexist? The Bayonetta example is a good one here. Empowered woman or sexist cariacture? Who decides?
And tax breaks for 'positive representations of women'? What are positive representations of women? Who decides? Would an awesome RPG with an anti-hero female character be penalised because of her negative traits, while some Mary Sue piece of crap gets the tax breaks? Do we really want to encourage that in our arts? It's all so opaque imo.
What's more, I would have understood this 8 years ago, but the industry has changed massively in recent years and there are tons of positive female characters in gaming these days. And again, we can't ignore mobile and social gaming when we look at the industry either, in which case I'd argue that 'sexist' games are a small minority.
And what about games that have as a core USP the appeal to male (hetero) sexuality? There's nothing wrong with that, but will that be seen as sexist? I don't think a game like DoAX3 is sexist (though it is heavily sexualised), but I'd be worried that under these new rules it would be.
I don't know, let artists be artists and let the people decide what they want to buy. In recent years that alone has worked to get more female main characters into mainstream gaming as people make their voices heard.
A 'sexism' rating? What's the definition of sexism in games? Who determines whether a game is sexist? The Bayonetta example is a good one here. Empowered woman or sexist cariacture? Who decides?
And tax breaks for 'positive representations of women'? What are positive representations of women? Who decides? Would an awesome RPG with an anti-hero female character be penalised because of her negative traits, while some Mary Sue piece of crap gets the tax breaks? Do we really want to encourage that in our arts? It's all so opaque imo.
What's more, I would have understood this 8 years ago, but the industry has changed massively in recent years and there are tons of positive female characters in gaming these days. And again, we can't ignore mobile and social gaming when we look at the industry either, in which case I'd argue that 'sexist' games are a small minority.
And what about games that have as a core USP the appeal to male (hetero) sexuality? There's nothing wrong with that, but will that be seen as sexist? I don't think a game like DoAX3 is sexist (though it is heavily sexualised), but I'd be worried that under these new rules it would be.
I don't know, let artists be artists and let the people decide what they want to buy. In recent years that alone has worked to get more female main characters into mainstream gaming as people make their voices heard.
TimeEffect
Member
I dont actually think a game where men fight women would be deemed sexist. I assume the board has more sense than that.
This is a fighting game where men beat women/men and vice versa. It's also a cartoon game. Not something realistic.
I am totally fine with games that ONLY allow me to play as a woman (Hey Tomb Raider).
I am totally fine with games that ONLY allow me to play as a man (Hey The Witcher).
I am totally fine with games that allows me to pick whether I play as woman or man.
I am opposed to the idea of tax incentives based on game content even though I get that they mean well.
I wouldn't agree with tax incentives for books or films based on gender either.
It is just a form of micromanagement and paternalism that I don't think governments should engage in. It is also extremely subjective.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Dear gods everything is a slippery slope with some of you guys. We give our governments so much power but woe if they get to decide a video game, which isn't even a recognised art form, is sexist.
WaterAstro
Member
Well, I could say that if Ubisoft Montreal didn't get the Canadian gov't tax credit, which literally pays for half of all their employees salary, Assassin's Creed would not have existed.
Obliterator
Member
Damnit Dennis you are making me rethink if I'm for the tax breaks or not.
Brilliant, this post must contain just about all my reservations to this plan:
1. Who would trust a government to correctly apply social labels?
2. A creator's intent is completely pushed aside, which would make sexism just a checklist of elements, rather than a conscious assessment of how the strengths and weaknesses of a female character are discussed in a possibly sexist context.
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