InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
Honestly I'd pay $50-100 more for a 1080 model while I'm not willing to get a 720 model at all.
- RetroUSB AVS - Real Hardware HDMI NES Clone Console
- Thread starter Rich!
- Start date
I got a NES30 Pro pad today...bit odd that these dont come with there own Bluetooth dongle!
Link_enfant
Member
The problem with 1080 is that NES's original 240p resolution doesn't scale properly to it, where 720p does.
But indeed, I guess it'd still be better to have a 1080p output even if the actual game image would only be 960p (just like Wii U VC where you have black bars above and under the game image).
Never tried using 720p on Wii U to see if the black bars disappear btw, that'd be great!
But indeed, I guess it'd still be better to have a 1080p output even if the actual game image would only be 960p (just like Wii U VC where you have black bars above and under the game image).
Never tried using 720p on Wii U to see if the black bars disappear btw, that'd be great!
Battlesmurf
Member
Serious question though- what does it mean by "Unopened". The inner packaging was never taped- only the outside shipping box. I wonder if I'm correct in assuming that it's a shipping box that never got opened?
Dangerous man.
angrywoodchuck
Member
I'm wondering how this will work going to a framemeister to get upscaled to 1080p and if that will create any noticeable lag?
Crazymoogle
Member
It's just an NES/Famicom. Hardware wise, it identifies as such and there's nothing different save for the HDMI. You would need an everdrive.
Beer Monkey
Member
Framemeister adds about a frame and a half of lag.
There's the FDSstick which emulates the disk drive part. You still need the RAM adapter though.
Yeah I've had my powerpak since around 2009 and it has never failed me. Retrousb makes solid hardware.
I never considered this. Good point.
Can different scaling modes be added via a future firmware upgrade? Although I'm not sure what else could be done if a 1080p frame is completely off the table. At least it should be future proof and play nice with 1440p and 4K displays.
sixteen-bit
Member
From the source themselves here's a capture of one running
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9lC68FNqpU
OK, you sold me on this. FDSStick and ram cart purchased.
*High five*
I had purchased a loose RAM cart a few months ago in anticipation of the AVS. I only ordered the FDSStick a few days prior to my post, only because I had no use of it yet; the AVS preorder sort of pushed me to finally order. I'm glad I waited because back when I purchased the RAM cart, the FDSStick was being sold for $25 instead of $12. Honestly I could have just used my powerpak to run the FDS roms, but I wanted the most authentic experience I could generate, especially accurate audio (I think the powerpak and everdrive still have issues with FDS audio if I recall).
angrywoodchuck
Member
Did you have to make a cable to connect the FDSstick to the Ram Cart? I just ordered one today, but I am a little confused about this because I don't have it in my hands at this time.
That's perfect, thanks! I need one now!
I don't have mine yet either, but from everything I've seen: no. The one end is male USB, the other end is a female receptor that accepts the male end of the RAM cart (the end that would typically connect to the FDS disk drive).
Here is a good review of the unit (if a bit long) but I skipped ahead to where the important part starts (and he shows how it all connects)
https://youtu.be/CeWoNuTaMbM?t=4m40s
edit: actually this video is more succinct and to the point
https://youtu.be/_xef7dPGcEw
Sir_Crocodile
Member
That's cool, but I was more looking for something to dump my FDS games. I think all current solutions require the original FDS.
MooMilk2929
Junior Member
Do we have a pic of their wired controller right now? I wanna see it.
there isn't one.
Yeah I think it's possible to dump disks to the FDSstick but obviously you'd need a disk drive, as well as a custom cable i think.
cacophony555
Member
Unless you're planning on using a 720p HDTV (who has one of those?), I'm not sure how this reasoning makes sense. A 1080p TV will force an upscale of 720p input to 1080p for display so you're not getting an integer scale in the end. Plus the TV upscale process will inevitably introduce some lag that would have been avoided with native 1080p output.
Beer Monkey
Member
Funny thing about "720p" TVs is almost all of them used 1024x768 panels and scaled everything anyway.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Haha, oh yeah. I remember now, it was total shit. Had one before my 1080P, thought it was HD.
I thought it was 1366x768.
yeah so did I...
Kabuki Quantum Lover
Member
Oof, that USD to CAD bombshell hurts. I'll have to wait this out.
StAidan
Member
Yeah, I have a 10 year-old "720p" TV and it's 1366x768.
Beer Monkey
Member
It is
MooMilk2929
Junior Member
There isn't a pic? Or it don't come with a controller?
sixteen-bit
Member
the latter. no controller in the box.
I want to see how it stacks up. It's especially interesting to me because the signal is digital to begin with so there should be no lag or interference.
dcx4610
Member
Direct from the maker himself, here's his response on why 720p and not 1080p. Hopefully this clears things up...
"TVs are highly optimized for 720->1080 because of things like DVDs. On the ones I measured the difference was within the error of my tools. Lots of TVs are doing crap/scale on 1080p signals anyways, and some 1080p TVs aren't even 1080p native panels. It is a huge mess. Once everything is 4k it becomes integer scaling again (720p * 3 = 4k).
Almost all TVs are treating the NES 240p as 480i and adding frames of processing, so the AVS ends up being faster. "
"TVs are highly optimized for 720->1080 because of things like DVDs. On the ones I measured the difference was within the error of my tools. Lots of TVs are doing crap/scale on 1080p signals anyways, and some 1080p TVs aren't even 1080p native panels. It is a huge mess. Once everything is 4k it becomes integer scaling again (720p * 3 = 4k).
Almost all TVs are treating the NES 240p as 480i and adding frames of processing, so the AVS ends up being faster. "
Polioliolio
Member
I hope AVS explodes in popularity.
It would be very cool if for example, Shovel Knight was reworked in an NES port and featured on AVS.
It would be very cool if for example, Shovel Knight was reworked in an NES port and featured on AVS.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
I don't use a TV though. )<
Beer Monkey
Member
DVDs are 480p. That's just a weird thing to say.
In what way does feeding it 720p make this better?
So basically this is admitting that all 1080p TVs will turn 240p->720p into non-integer scaling, defeating the purpose for the vast majority of HDTV owners.
My TV does not, but whatever. This has nothing to do with 720p versus 1080p anyway.
cacophony555
Member
It sounds more like a non-response, intended to avoid the question
Having the ability to output 1080p is clearly preferable for many people. One point that hasn't even been mentioned is that with 720p output the integer horizontal scale options are not the correct aspect ratio for the NES (1:1 is too skinny and 4:3 is too wide). With 1080p output you can do a 5 times horizontal x 4 times vertical and get a 5:4 aspect ratio, which perfectly matches the aspect ratio of each "pixel" on an old CRT.
This is discussed here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI60A3DpI6w
(at 4:52, 6:15, and 6:24)
Beer Monkey
Member
I posted this elsewhere to demonstrate 4x and 5x integer scaling of 256x224 NES games into 1080p. 5x loses 3% or so to cropping, though of course this is less than what a typical NES/TV setup lost due to overscan back in the 90s.
Of course this is sans scanline effects.
Of course this is sans scanline effects.
4x
5x
Same here as well!!!=p
That would be an enormous undertaking since SK in its current form is a large game that is well beyond the NES's capabilities. But make no mistake, if Yacht Club Games undertook the challenge, made a limited run of cartridges and sold them for anywhere between $60 to $200 (maybe more)... they would sell out instantly.
This is so disappointing. It would seem the only solution now is to get a 4K television, but nothing at the moment is really good in terms of input lag. Maybe a 1440p gaming monitor would be the best option.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
I would absolutely love a small indie scene to pop up for new NES games, but I don't know how economically feasible that is.
Polioliolio
Member
Yeah I hear ya. But they've got to start somewhere.
AVS might be the place, eh? Hopeful thinking, I know.
MooMilk2929
Junior Member
But most of it to scalpers.
Beer Monkey
Member
Just for the heck of it, here's close detail of the kind of non-integer scaling artifacts you get when you scale the integer scaled to 720p image to 1080p. This is using the best quality scaling in PAINT.NET, algorithms (and lag) will vary by television.
It's relatively subtle (possibly not noticeable at a distance and in motion), but you wouldn't have these artifacts if integer scaled to 1080p (with small black bars at 4x or mild cropping at 5x).
Also worth mentioning that if scanline effects had already been applied when building the 720p image before it was scaled to 1080p, the result might create more softness and artifacts.
It's relatively subtle (possibly not noticeable at a distance and in motion), but you wouldn't have these artifacts if integer scaled to 1080p (with small black bars at 4x or mild cropping at 5x).
Also worth mentioning that if scanline effects had already been applied when building the 720p image before it was scaled to 1080p, the result might create more softness and artifacts.
NoFaceNico
Member
^ I'm sure it won't look like much in actual gameplay. I mean, look at how big the pixels are in relation to the artifacts. But I'd like to see what the real thing looks like in actual use, so it's another reason why I'd like to wait for impressions.
Beer Monkey
Member
I don't disagree. But it does illustrate how it's nonsense to brag that the advantage of using 720p is integer scaling. It won't be integer scaled when finally output on practically anyone's display device, period.
NoFaceNico
Member
If the difference is that important and people are supposedly willing to pay a premium for a bigger FPGA chip, then why not just buy a 720p monitor instead so you don't have to scale the picture at all? People in the retro scene have been buying expensive PVMs for years to get the best picture, I think we even have a thread about it. I'm sure a good 720p monitor is cheap these days.
Or if I understand the maker's previous quote correctly, you will get proper scaling if you use a 4k monitor. If such clarity in your home setup is that important don't you plan to upgrade to 4k anyways? It sounds pretty absurd to tell people "I demand only the highest 1080p quality from my 8-bit graphics! Damn the expense! ... but I refuse to ever upgrade to 4k. C'mon, that would just be silly."
And for everyone else who doesn't care that much about the little artifacting, they can still use their 1080p sets and sleep well knowing the maker of the AVS thought it was more important to give his device a semi-reasonable price point.