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[theshape31]

Good for her turning toxic negativity and hate into something positive, that was an excellent speech

 

[Zasa]

It only came out yesterday, most people need a day or two to digest and discuss its content.

Fair enough, I've still barely scratched the surface as well. Only have 5 hours or so.

 

[entremet]

You mean the 'nuance' being presented in this thread?

You're gonna have to give examples otherwise this post is useless.

I mostly ignore those without substance but some good ones have been made.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

I agree. I get tired of seeing developers blamed for the lack of female protagonists. They're worried about their livelihood and that of their coworkers/employees. There are plenty of good, solid games with female leads. Blame the consumers, specifically the ones who want more of them, for not speaking with their money and buying those games.

Not sure how they'd fix the harassment in game. It's much easier to police it on twitter but it's even a much bigger problem over there. Would they need to hire people specifically to watch thousands of reported matches to find the harassers?

Party chat off... Hell im a guy and I get offended by some of shit I hear but when a female comes on it only gets worse. Rather sad. Thats why I just set up a party by myself when I am not playing with friends.

 

[family_guy]

Well Tomb Raider (2013) had some really gruesome death scenes and went out of their way to hurt Lara. In the very beginning of the game she gets punched in the face and then has a large nail stabbed in her gut. I'm sure that the developers had no ill intent but I know it bothered people.

Anyway, I agree with her. It's even small stuff like Shepard punching that reporter. I never thought it was funny, it just seemed really unnecessary.

Shepard can be a woman though and you actually don't have to punch the reporter at all regardless of which gender you picked. If you got that scene it says more about you than the game devs.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Stop reposting that fucking Mass Effect gif. It's irrelevant and detracts from the discussion.

All I'm going to say is I now view her as a hypocrite.

How so?

 

[Lime]

He's got a point though. Ashley's point is valid and good, but if you want to have an actual, ACTUAL conversation, presenting her argument the way she does here is not ideal.

The problem is that there's never an ideal way - there'll always be some men who demand that the argument needs to be framed in a specific way as a condition before they even want to listen.

Like, what does it take for people to just accept that there is sexism in the games industry when people speak up about their own experiences corroborated by anonymous testimonies, quantitative statistics of wage gaps, representation, years of employment, quality of life, etc.?

There is always some bullshit condition that allows people to just keep sticking their heads in the sand.

 

[Nomadic Sparks]

I mostly agree with Ashley Judd, but arguments are not without scrutiny, hence the contention on a specific point she made.

The problem is when any criticism of an argument is made and now the person making that claim is unsupportive of her gist. That's not the case.

I really don't like this path we're going down where nuance is dead[\b]. Particulars of an arguments can be dissented without diminishing the intent.

Nuance was dead loooonnnggg ago

For most people everything black and white, which explains why Republicanism didn't die off at all.

 

[Armaros]

You're gonna have to give examples otherwise this post is useless.

I mostly ignore those without substance but some good ones have been made.

People claiming its not sexism when its done on purpose to cater to a specific audience. (basiclly porn).

People then claiming that sexism then requires intent?

or how about then people drive by and claim she is a hypocrite because she is an actress and Hollywood has its own problems? (which she has also spoken out about)

 

[Clear]

Sorry but its not the games industry's job to police the internet.

And honestly, the whole notion that games are egregiously more sexist and exploitative/oppressive of women/minorities than any other popular media is just unsupportable in my opinion.

As per usual I see this as a case of gaming and general internet culture being conflated with the former being blamed for all the sins of the latter.

 

[chillybright]

Or it's just used as an excuse to not discuss the actual topic at hand.

What is the topic at hand here? I see too many and people talk over each other.

 

[Lime]

You're gonna have to give examples otherwise this post is useless.

I mostly ignore those without substance but some good ones have been made.

I would like to see any of these 'good' ones that aren't just excuses for people to stick their heads in the sand (or who, at best, are simply oblivious about sexism in video games culture and the industry)

 

[Nomadic Sparks]

The problem is that there's never an ideal way - there'll always be some men who demand that the argument needs to be framed in a specific way as a condition before they even want to listen.

Like, what does it take for people to just accept that there is sexism in the games industry when people speak up about their own experiences corroborated by anonymous testimonies, quantitative statistics of wage gaps, representation, years of employment, quality of life, etc.?

There is always some bullshit condition that allows people to just keep sticking their heads in the sand.

Whole lotta truth in this

We gotta have get their heads out of their asses and help out people (THAT MEANS YOU FB AND TWITTER.)

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I agree. I get tired of seeing developers blamed for the lack of female protagonists. They're worried about their livelihood and that of their coworkers/employees. There are plenty of good, solid games with female leads. Blame the consumers, specifically the ones who want more of them, for not speaking with their money and buying those games.

Not sure how they'd fix the harassment in game. It's much easier to police it on twitter but it's even a much bigger problem over there. Would they need to hire people specifically to watch thousands of reported matches to find the harassers?

It's not like we get that much of a choice as consumers when it comes to games with female protagonists though. Therein lies the problem with that defence, "the market says we want men" and therefore they make male protagonists and that cycle continues without us having the option or anything else. When games are straight up being ignored for featuring a female protagonist how is the market meant to say anything differently when we rarely get the chance to prove it wrong?

The problem is that there's never an ideal way - there'll always be some men who demand that the argument needs to be framed in a specific way as a condition before they even want to listen.

Like, what does it take for people to just accept that there is sexism in the games industry when people speak up about their own experiences corroborated by anonymous testimonies, quantitative statistics of wage gaps, representation, years of employment, quality of life, etc.?

There is always some bullshit condition that allows people to just keep sticking their heads in the sand.

Good post.

 

[EventHorizon]

I'm not sure how this happened, but when it comes to GamerGate I am that undecided voter I despise so much in politics. I have a vague idea of what it's about, but it seemed to me that both sides made some good points and were jerks. This never gets resolved because both sides can legitimately claim they are right and the other side is wrong. Without a hero to this story and too many villains, it's hard care about it.

-My 2 cents

 

[Armaros]

I'm not sure how this happened, but when it comes to GamerGate I am that undecided voter I despise so much in politics. I have a vague idea of what it's about, but it seemed to me that both sides made some good points and were jerks. This never gets resolved because both sides can legitimately claim they are right and the other side is wrong. Without a hero to this story and too many villains, it's hard care about it.

-My 2 cents

...you dont know anything a bout gamergate, and then come in and say that no one is right and the truth should be somewhere in the middle.

Gamergate, a documented harassment campagin vs women in the gaming industry.

 

[Lime]

Sorry but its not the games industry's job to police the internet.

And honestly, the whole notion that games are egregiously more sexist and exploitative/oppressive of women/minorities than any other popular media is just unsupportable in my opinion.

As per usual I see this as a case of gaming and general internet culture being conflated with the former being blamed for all the sins of the latter.

The sexism in games is not relegated to the Internet, it's at game companies, it's at conventions, it's at conferences, it's in marketing, it's in major publisher's greenlighting of projects, it's in the actual products and games, it's in the audiences, and the toxic die-hard consumers who defend their hobby from any criticism they deem illegitimate.

Wiping your hands or pushing away the issue as something not characteristic of video games culture isn't doing anyone, especially the ones facing the discrimination and sexism, any good.

In fact, by saying that it's not the games industry's job to curb sexism, you're pushing away any form of responsibility away from companies and actors who have actual social and cultural and economic power to make a difference and stand up against the hate.

 

[ironmang]

Party chat off... Hell im a guy and I get offended by some of shit I hear but when a female comes on it only gets worse. Rather sad. Thats why I just set up a party by myself when I am not playing with friends.

I mostly just use the mute button. Usually it's 0-2 people crossing the line and it takes me maybe 5 seconds to mute all of them. Lets you be welcoming to whoever is being harassed too.

 

[meltingparappa]

I'm not sure how this happened, but when it comes to GamerGate I am that undecided voter I despise so much in politics. I have a vague idea of what it's about, but it seemed to me that both sides made some good points and were jerks. This never gets resolved because both sides can legitimately claim they are right and the other side is wrong. Without a hero to this story and too many villains, it's hard care about it.

-My 2 cents

I implore you to actually read up on it, if only cursory, because the false equivalency of there being two sides to such a socially violent movement only propagates the attitudes and falsehoods promoted by those attacking women on principle.

There may be no arbitrary fictional heroes or villains, but there is clear unwarranted perpetual abuse that is only trending towards becoming more pervasive.

 

[Nomadic Sparks]

I'm not sure how this happened, but when it comes to GamerGate I am that undecided voter I despise so much in politics. I have a vague idea of what it's about, but it seemed to me that both sides made some good points and were jerks. This never gets resolved because both sides can legitimately claim they are right and the other side is wrong. Without a hero to this story and too many villains, it's hard care about it.

-My 2 cents

FUCK THIS POST ENTIRELY


""Both sides are bad so why should we care?""

Boy I wish I could afford to think like this. Wouldn't that be a lovely place. Oh someone's being mugged, doesn't involve me at all I just think I'll stroll on ahead."

THATS YOU!
THAT'S YOUR WAY OF THINKING THAT ALLOWS GG TO STILL PROPAGATE BULLSHT

STOP THAT RIGHT NOW

 

[Zakalwe]

Sexism and misogyny don't need intent to exist.

The deaths in TR are in no way sexist or mysoginistic.

They're gratuitous, explicit, maybe a bit too much, but this is no different from games like Dead Space, or Resident Evil, or Mortal Kombat, etc...

 

[Jerry Orbach]

It's not surprising Ashley Judd would have concerns about video games, given her past experience with them.

 

[RiZ III]

Don't get why the video game industry is singled out here. Hollywood is ten times worse. Also has anyone seen how popular female singers dress these days? Whenever I see clips of performances by famous singers like Ariana Grande, JLo, Spears, Beyoncé, etc., they're basically dressed like the scantly clad women in Japanese fantasy anime or what in the west we'd call stripper outfits.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I have a vague idea of what it's about.

And yet you feel you pass minimum qualifications to pass a 'both sides' argument.

Uh-huh.

 

[ViolentP]

...you dont know anything a bout gamergate, and then come in and say that no one is right and the truth should be somewhere in the middle.

Gamergate, a documented harassment campagin vs women in the gaming industry.

I feel like focusing on the gaming industry to help alleviate the deplorable treatment of women is like going after 1 of 1000 gunmen aiming at a woman and not the person handing out the guns.

 

[Nomadic Sparks]

I implore you to actually read up on it, if only cursory, because the false equivalency of there being two sides to such a socially violent movement only propagates the attitudes and falsehoods promoted by those attacking women on principle.

There may be no arbitrary fictional heroes or villains, but there is clear unwarranted perpetual abuse that is only trending towards becoming more pervasive.

Thanks for nothing TechBros!

 

[Dick Justice]

Well Tomb Raider (2013) had some really gruesome death scenes and went out of their way to hurt Lara. In the very beginning of the game she gets punched in the face and then has a large nail stabbed in her gut. I'm sure that the developers had no ill intent but I know it bothered people.

Anyway, I agree with her. It's even small stuff like Shepard punching that reporter. I never thought it was funny, it just seemed really unnecessary.

Kinda dislike the whole "female characters are weak, special snowflakes who should never be tarnished or hurt in any way" thing.

 

[Arthimura]

Lock if old.

Thoughts on her words?

I think developers should have artistic freedom to create their worlds and characters the way they want, as long as they do not inflict any laws.

 

[Kthulhu]

You are completely and utterly wrong. Just apply this to race and racisim and you see how fast your point falls apart.

'the point is the fantasy for the user that X race is superior to all other races' I guess white supremacy magazines aren't really racist because they do it on purpose for their target demographic?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

 

[Nomadic Sparks]

I feel like focusing on the gaming industry to help alleviate the deplorable treatment of women is like going after 1 of 1000 gunmen aiming at a woman and not the person handing out the guns.

Whose the dude passing out the guns?

THE PATRIARCHY????

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I feel like focusing on the gaming industry to help alleviate the deplorable treatment of women is like going after 1 of 1000 gunmen aiming at a woman and not the person handing out the guns.

So let's ignore it then?

 

[ViolentP]

Whose the dude passing out the guns?

THE PATRIARCHY????

Are you asking me? Whomever it is, it certainly isn't Biff in Call of Duty.

So let's ignore it then?

Ignore the issue? Absolutely not. But I think there needs to be better assessment of the cause and that requires the attention and energy of the populace.

 

[Gbraga]

You're misunderstanding or my point is not clear enough. I am saying that they're not intentionally and explicitly saying "let's sell to the bigots", but instead I am saying that they have structural and ingrained issues that make products that are comfortable to GG. The dominance of white straight dudes everywhere, the invisibility of black and brown people, the sexual objectification of (white) women, the invisibility and ridicule of LGBTQ people, and so on. These things are in the products out there.

And you have specific cases of publishers and marketing doing racist and sexist shit

• Publishers not wanting to greenlight Remember Me because it was a black female lead
• Microsoft marketing telling Lionhead that they can't put a black female lead on the cover of Fable 2
• Bioshock Infinite having to remove Elizabeth or whatever her name is from the game cover
• Naughty Dog being asked by Sony to relegate Ellie from the front of the cover to the back of visual piece
• Activision forcing United Front Games to change True Crime Hongkong from an original female protagonist to a male one
• Their silence and neutrality when Gamergate was a thing.

And on and on. The point is that there are invisible/ingrained sexism/racism/homophobia in video games industry and culture and there are examples of decisions to exclude women, racialized minority groups, and LGBTQ from being represented in games.

I'm sorry, I'm probably misunderstanding, because I agree with what you said here as well.

Didn't know about some of these examples, though. Like True Crime Hong Kong originally having a female character, or the Fable II cover. What a shame.

I wonder if that was also imposed on them when the game became Sleeping Dogs or if by that point they just changed so much that they decided to go with Wei Shen so they wouldn't have to spend too much time on changing it back. Do you know anything about that?

 

[Adam_Vania]

"games that maim and dump women for sport".

I can't think of any game that does this..

the Grant Theft Auto has exclusively had female (no male) prostitutes/strippers/etc. and no playable female characters.

i can see why you would have trouble thinking of the name, it's only one of the most famous and best selling series of all time

 

[Nomadic Sparks]

Why discuss the merits of her comments when she's right anyways and discussing the merits and the details of her comment serve only to distract on how to get rid of Gamer Gate

 

[rochellepaws]

I'm not sure how this happened, but when it comes to GamerGate I am that undecided voter I despise so much in politics. I have a vague idea of what it's about, but it seemed to me that both sides made some good points and were jerks. This never gets resolved because both sides can legitimately claim they are right and the other side is wrong. Without a hero to this story and too many villains, it's hard care about it.

-My 2 cents

I think at this point it's much more important to tackle the genuine issues of female representation in games and harassment to industry figures than attempting to engage with a hashtag which stands for a multitude of different things depending on who you ask.

 

[ironmang]

It's not like we get that much of a choice as consumers when it comes to games with female protagonists though. Therein lies the problem with that defence, "the market says we want men" and therefore they make male protagonists and that cycle continues without us having the option or anything else. When games are straight up being ignored for featuring a female protagonist how is the market meant to say anything differently when we rarely get the chance to prove it wrong?

I really don't think you're looking hard enough. And when they're AAA games that can be the most influential, why aren't people who want more female leads buying them? Gravity Rush 2 just came out and despite the critical acclaim it's not going to sell very well.

@bold: Exactly my point. If you want more female leads then don't ignore the ones you get. Sends the message that buyers don't want female leads.

Be happy at least there are games to ignore. Where are the middle eastern characters I can identify with? Besides being terrorists I need to kill? lol

 

[SapientWolf]

Sexualized violence is still violence and the refrigerator trope isn't necessarily sexualized either, so I'm not sure why you can't see that games have had "maiming and dumping them for sport"

The quote is too vague without context. We can't conclusively say that those topics were the target of her criticisms. Now we're just taking Sarkeesian's words and putting them into her mouth. I think Polygon's reporting is at fault here.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I think developers should have artistic freedom to create their worlds and characters the way they want, as long as they do not inflict any laws.

That's cool.

But what are your thoughts on the words Ashley Judd said?

 

[Guardian Monkey]

I really don't think you're looking hard enough. And when they're AAA games that can be the most influential, why aren't people who want more female leads buying them? Gravity Rush 2 just came out and despite the critical acclaim it's not going to sell very well.

@bold: Exactly my point. If you want more female leads then don't ignore the ones you get. Sends the message that buyers don't want female leads.

I think that has more to do with the fact that it is a sequel to a vita game.

 

[Freeman]

Given her speech the other day during the protests she is definitely out of her mind, she is the kind of person that does a disservice to any cause she speaks for.

Well Tomb Raider (2013) had some really gruesome death scenes and went out of their way to hurt Lara. In the very beginning of the game she gets punched in the face and then has a large nail stabbed in her gut. I'm sure that the developers had no ill intent but I know it bothered people.

Anyway, I agree with her. It's even small stuff like Shepard punching that reporter. I never thought it was funny, it just seemed really unnecessary.

Sheppard goes around the galaxy shooting everyone, blowing up planets, then the option of punching a woman is given (you don't have to, the game doesn't even suggest its the right thing to do), whats so different about it? Just because she is a woman she can't get punched like everyone else?

 

[Shredderi]

There is always some bullshit condition that allows people to just keep sticking their heads in the sand.

Yes, yes there is. You are absolutely right.

 

[Mael]

I really don't think you're looking hard enough. And when they're AAA games that can be the most influential, why aren't people who want more female leads buying them? Gravity Rush 2 just came out and despite the critical acclaim it's not going to sell very well.

@bold: Exactly my point. If you want more female leads then don't ignore the ones you get. Sends the message that buyers don't want female leads.

Maybe GR2 is a bad example because of the scope & budget?
TLOU Part 2 seems like a better example of better representation.
GR2 isn't exactly the kind of AAA stuffs the industry uses as standard bearer.
Games with proper representation of women can and do sell.

I think developers should have artistic freedom to create their worlds and characters the way they want, as long as they do not inflict any laws.

Pfahaahahahahaah
We all know that's BS.
The publishers get the last say and if they say they don't want to do something, the dev ain't doing shit.
There's no such thing as artistic freedom in a vaccum.

 

[RoboticWater]

...you dont know anything a bout gamergate, and then come in and say that no one is right and the truth should be somewhere in the middle.

Is that not a good method of approaching controversial topics?

Gamergate, a documented harassment campagin vs women in the gaming industry.

You're not exactly an unbiased source. Even given my own relatively extensive research, I've yet to come down on a side. Too many sources provide conflicting information that conveniently vindicates their own view point. What I'm certain of, is that there were trolls definitely harassing women, journalists definitely not doing their jobs very well, and well-meaning individuals on both sides being betrayed by deceitful aggressors and harassed for their alignment.

At this point, I think it's simply easier for me to say that there is a culture of misogyny in gaming (though I've yet to determine if it's significantly greater than any other industry) and a lack of journalistic ethics (which, given recent news coverage, probably isn't so severe in the world at large), and that ideally both shouldn't exist. Sides are irrelevant in the matter.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I really don't think you're looking hard enough. And when they're AAA games that can be the most influential, why aren't people who want more female leads buying them? Gravity Rush 2 just came out and despite the critical acclaim it's not going to sell very well.

@bold: Exactly my point. If you want more female leads then don't ignore the ones you get. Sends the message that buyers don't want female leads.

Be happy at least there are games to ignore. Where are the middle eastern characters I can identify with? Besides being terrorists I need to kill? lol

I meant ignored by publishers and decision makers. Apologies.

 

[boiled goose]

I agree. I get tired of seeing developers blamed for the lack of female protagonists. They're worried about their livelihood and that of their coworkers/employees. There are plenty of good, solid games with female leads. Blame the consumers, specifically the ones who want more of them, for not speaking with their money and buying those games.

Not sure how they'd fix the harassment in game. It's much easier to police it on twitter but it's even a much bigger problem over there. Would they need to hire people specifically to watch thousands of reported matches to find the harassers?

This is a shallow argument.

Tired of blaming slaveowners over racism. They are just trying to maximize profit!

Exaggeration of course but illustrates how horrible outcomes can't be justified by profit to subsets of society.

 

[Fantastical]

"maim and dump"... like "dump" a girlfriend? What does she seem? Anyways, I agree that video games should have women with more diversity front and center. I do not think every woman in a game needs to be a hardened badass either.

 

[Cathcart]

You stay classy, NeoGAF.

 

[Mael]

You're not exactly an unbiased source. Even given my own relatively extensive research, I've yet to come down on a side. Too many sources provide conflicting information that conveniently vindicates their own view point. What I'm certain of, is that there were trolls definitely harassing women, journalists definitely not doing their jobs very well, and well-meaning individuals on both sides being betrayed by deceitful aggressors and harassed for their alignment.

At this point, I think it's simply easier for me to say that there is a culture of misogyny in gaming (though I've yet to determine if it's significantly greater than any other industry) and a lack of journalistic ethics (which, given recent news coverage, probably isn't so severe in the world at large), and that ideally both shouldn't exist. Sides are irrelevant in the matter.

Oh, please do provide your extensive research that shows that both sides are equally as bad.

 

[Adam_Vania]

The publishers get the last say and if they say they don't want to do something, the dev ain't doing shit.
There's no such thing as artistic freedom in a vaccum.

these things are designed by committee anyways, just like movies. it isn't some precious vision stemming from the mind of a single artist, it's more like a production line. even if the "head" of development has a vision, they still have to answer to someone above them, who has to answer to someone above them, and so on, and so on...

passing the buck is no excuse. "but it's art" is even less of an excuse. art is shaped by the real world whether you like it or not.