Miniature Kaiju
Member
Colorado (Denver/Colorado Springs area), Utah (Salt Lake City and other areas), Arizona and I guess the southernmost parts of the map might be New Mexico. The ending has Aloy at Lis' house, near Carson City, so western Nevada.
Horizon Zero Dawn SPOILERS Thread
- Thread starter vivekTO
- Start date
Colorado (Denver/Colorado Springs area), Utah (Salt Lake City and other areas), Arizona and I guess the southernmost parts of the map might be New Mexico. The ending has Aloy at Lis' house, near Carson City, so western Nevada.
After watching some of this, it reminded me that the person most screwed over, was probably Samina, the Apollo lady from New Tehran. Already was big on collecting bits on cultural history and preservation, that APOLLO would be the culmination of her life's work, her passion (albeit under the worst possible scenario).
Only to get a message from the guy who ended the world "oh yeah, just erased all your life's work" and within 60 seconds, he kills you. I like the touch they added when a few Alpha's got up from their chairs and attempted to console her (as you can see her immediate reaction to the loss of Apollo).
semiconscious
Member
actually, it's impossible to believe. it's the single hardest thing to believe in the whole game
...actually, it's impossible to believe. it's the single hardest thing to believe in the whole game
Haha, it really is. I mean the metal working alone would be something that would take thousands of years to develop.
There has to be some sort of plot reason for this. They must have picked this knowledge up from somewhere.
I can just about believe in the Nora. But the Carja are way too advanced.
Not to mention how long it would take to terraform an ecosystem from the ground up - you don't just make some grass and rabbits.
The timescale seems way out of whack.
Yeah true forgot to list that. Aloy has the access she needs and HADES is effectively purged from GAIA systems (although not deleted entirely as Sylens has a copy now of course).
I just hope they go forward to a resolution rather than trying to keep it dangling without an ultimate end. The best narratives are those that come to a definitive end rather than limping out after dragging on too long.
I'd settle for a nice trilogy of Horizon games with maybe some DLC exploring other side stories/events.
The big narrative challenge though and plot point to resolve is the source of the transmission, the antagonist going forward and fitting Sylens in well (he may even be that antagonist or one of them although the cut scene makes clear he doesn't know who HADES master is so there will have to be multiple initially).
I'm just hoping they mapped it out properly rather than just leaving a few threads dangling to build on. The former normally means a solid, consistent narrative and the latter than things start to unravel.
That said ZD is so well put together, with a very nice narrative flow and with a nicely solid backstory I'm optimistic currently that GG must surely have mapped this all out given the detail to attention in the backstory and narrative in ZD.
The way I see it, the Carja (or whoever started it) didn't have any quarrels about searching the ruins of the Ole Ones. They also lived among the ruins of the old world, with it's metal remnants. They didn't come from absolute nothing. They got a leg up (and not only from the basic teachings the 1st people came out of the Cradle's with (like language).
The Nora are far more primitive because they wanted/believed to be so. Their sacred land that they inhabit (and forbid to leave) has far fewer structures of the old world, and anything that is, they forbid from contact.
I also imagine the "technical achievements" have been on an upswing, potentially from Sylens and his discovery of the Focus.
The Nora are far more primitive because they wanted/believed to be so. Their sacred land that they inhabit (and forbid to leave) has far fewer structures of the old world, and anything that is, they forbid from contact.
I also imagine the "technical achievements" have been on an upswing, potentially from Sylens and his discovery of the Focus.
Language and writing they would have picked up from their kindergarten teachings, sure. But what about the ruins of the old world would help them develop agriculture, or understand how to make steel or glass? Simply because you see something doesn't mean you know how to make it, and most of the stuff in the ruins bears no resemblance to the techniques of architecture and engineering they use anyway. Somehow, somewhere, there must have been people like Sylens who were able to extract knowledge from the old world - it's the only rational explanation in the time frame. Either that or some outside influence I guess. And it couldn't have been Sylens, because Meridian and the Carja were around long before he was. Whatever the case, they are hardly 'primitive'.
In the art book it looks like the machines may have actually helped early man with some of its projects but perhaps that's not canon to the game as it stands now. It would make sense that Gaia couldn't directly interfere with humanity but she could give one of her subordinate AI's the job of getting the machines to show humanity the basics of things like construction, especially with Apollo gone. There are a lot of theories out there that humanity learned a lot of things like hunting by observing wolves and the way they hunted in a pack so perhaps Gaia just took a much more direct route on getting humanity started instead of just sending them into a strange world they had no skills to handle.
Love watching Cohh play new games, he's probably the most emotive streamer I've seen. Always has interesting reactions to things.
semiconscious
Member
it mentions in one of the data logs that the carja found 'leaves' that taught them about old world technology, & they became outcasts because of getting into this. so there's that. but the actual construction of meridian, & all the other towers/fortresses? no way this's all done in less than 700 years. i mean, hell, it even looks like it's already been there for quite a while, meaning even fewer years than that
....have you guys even played the game yet? its brutally obvious where the locations are. vanatage points tell you all you need to know plus the data points towards the end. vantage literally show you the air force academy church, denver stadium, colorado springs skyline etc etc
MugiwaraCole
Member
Humanity really just about went extinct in a lil over a year.
That's what it sounds like, anyways. Just left maker's end.
How you make robots that reproduce and refuel off biomass and not expect shit to go left? Lmfao
That's what it sounds like, anyways. Just left maker's end.
How you make robots that reproduce and refuel off biomass and not expect shit to go left? Lmfao
Yeah I couldn't believe that's the solution they went with. Not nuclear or something else, biomass. Might as well have made them run off the pain and suffering of those around them.
Aaronology
Member
IN EMERGENCIES! EMERGENCIES!
God, Ted Faro is such a bastard. It's a testament to how much corporations controlled the world by the time it ended that he was able to not only escape some form of punishment but was allowed to both create his own bunker and get access to Zero Dawn. Fuck that guy, but also fuck the society that created him. Bashar Mati's story makes it clear how utterly corrupt human society was by the time it all went up in flames.
Yea thats the one thing that got me in this thing. Why did they care about him funding the project. It was his decisions that destroyed civilization. They should have just took his money and shut him out. It made little sense. Maybe Liz didn't let out how big his part in the screw ups were.
Ruthless_Barbarian
Member
They probably needed his money, resources and access to the machines data/scientists that he may have held back if he wasn't included.
But they could have just confiscated his money as part of punishment for his crimes. He is responsible for destroying humanity. Instead they painted him as a savoir to the people for financing the whole thing. Also that was basically what Liz said to him in the holo before her meeting with the joint chiefs. if he didn't agree to finance she would out him herself. They could have shut him out and no one would have cared.
LastMinuteHero
Member
I like to see a dlc of Rost hunting those killers and going to different places and all. Also he has my vote for Father of the Year. Btw are Marea and Rost from the same village?
Did anyone else went d'aww when Aloy hugged Teersa? Such a nice lady.
Haha that teasing by Erend's vanguards
Did anyone else went d'aww when Aloy hugged Teersa? Such a nice lady.
Haha that teasing by Erend's vanguards
All the metal flowers were made by GAIA to honor Dr. Sobeck. I ALMOST CRIED
I really liked that the android-mother told the teenagers to "go out and be brave."
boujeejamboree
Member
Money never bought an ounce of time.
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That makes sense. I guess I was thinking it was more like
Life as we know it dies = first apocalypse
new civilization = post apocalypse
another Apocalypse wipes them out = the second apocalypse
horizon zero dawn = post post apocalypse
I see where I went wrong.
LastMinuteHero
Member
Wow I didn't know that that's deep
Btw do you guys think Aloy can find a way to recover/salvage Apollo? Cause really fuck Ted Faro.
Also Sylens is up to some shady shit
Implied to be zero. Basic timeline seems to be:
Machines wipe out all life apart from a few left in GAIA program bunkers
Ted takes care of most of those killing them and erasing APOLLO so the new human society can be "pure" and free of our sins
GAIA eventually hacks machines and shuts them down (it's implied by this stage there is zero life anywhere)
GAIA begins program to repopulate earth: plants etc first then when air suitable first humans
That's why they said it was post post apocalypse I believe.
That said Ted was clearly in some bunker too and we know there's some other faction that activates HADES so whether the population really hit zero we'll see. It's implied there was some other program besides GAIA going in secret simply by the ending and events of the game itself.
Aaronology
Member
You're judging their decision based off of what could have happened in our society, I think. A lot of the data logs and especially Mati's story paint a picture of a future world where corporations and those who run them have as much power as individual nations. And Faro Automated Systems was the largest, most powerful of all of them. There is really no telling what they could have forced him to do without, as Liz explained, revealing to everyone exactly how fucked they all were. The same secrecy that gave Zero Dawn the cover it needed for completion allowed Ted Faro to escape the punishment he really, really deserved.
Impetuous Imp
Member
Despite my massive backlog, I'm finding it hard to get into another game after playing this one. Instead I've started watching others play through it.
As I was watching, I caught again the lore that you can opt to listen to as you're walking through the village the night before the Proving. I listened to it a couple times and then stopped to type it out so that I could look it over better.
This first bit made me think they were talking about the present, what happened after life was re-established. Part of the Nora tribe decided to explore the ruins of the metal world, work with the machines, eventually splitting off from the Nora due to difference of beliefs and traveling west to eventually become the Carja. It would give explanation to the Carja's cities and building, etc. But then it continues on -
So it sounds like maybe all of it is describing what they believed happened in the past, to the Old Ones?
It does actually make me wonder about the "metal devil" that's caught in All-Mother mountain. There are pieces of it sticking out into that room right before the locked doorway (where they found Aloy). My understanding is that the machines eventually went dormant due to lack of biomatter, and it was only later that Gaia would have cracked the code to shut them down, essentially turning off what were already dormant machines. Did that machine just happen to run out of fuel JUST as it was breaking through to the cradle facility?
It also seems like, despite lack of Apollo, the servitors had to have taught the children something beyond the basic preschool information. If I knew nothing and walked out of that mountain to see the giant machines, I wouldn't have been able to come up with all of that lore by guess alone, especially given the fact that the machines which raised me were caregivers and not death machines, and those machine-animals present when I walked out would have been peaceful. What would imply that any of the machine ruins found in the world were evil by comparison?
As I was watching, I caught again the lore that you can opt to listen to as you're walking through the village the night before the Proving. I listened to it a couple times and then stopped to type it out so that I could look it over better.
This first bit made me think they were talking about the present, what happened after life was re-established. Part of the Nora tribe decided to explore the ruins of the metal world, work with the machines, eventually splitting off from the Nora due to difference of beliefs and traveling west to eventually become the Carja. It would give explanation to the Carja's cities and building, etc. But then it continues on -
So it sounds like maybe all of it is describing what they believed happened in the past, to the Old Ones?
It does actually make me wonder about the "metal devil" that's caught in All-Mother mountain. There are pieces of it sticking out into that room right before the locked doorway (where they found Aloy). My understanding is that the machines eventually went dormant due to lack of biomatter, and it was only later that Gaia would have cracked the code to shut them down, essentially turning off what were already dormant machines. Did that machine just happen to run out of fuel JUST as it was breaking through to the cradle facility?
It also seems like, despite lack of Apollo, the servitors had to have taught the children something beyond the basic preschool information. If I knew nothing and walked out of that mountain to see the giant machines, I wouldn't have been able to come up with all of that lore by guess alone, especially given the fact that the machines which raised me were caregivers and not death machines, and those machine-animals present when I walked out would have been peaceful. What would imply that any of the machine ruins found in the world were evil by comparison?
Just beat the game, loved the ending and Aloy coming back to see Sobeck.
I was hoping that she went into some cryogenic stuff and that in the end we would see her alive.
Anyway, what happened to Ted ? The last thing I saw about him was when he killed all of the Alpha, or did I miss something?
I was hoping that she went into some cryogenic stuff and that in the end we would see her alive.
Anyway, what happened to Ted ? The last thing I saw about him was when he killed all of the Alpha, or did I miss something?
Killed all the Alphas and died with the rest of civilization.
Just finished the game, really was a great and unique story. The thing is, I find it really hard to believe that Ted Faro could just type a few buttons and "delete" the sum of humanity's knowledge and all of their backups and redundancies without any resistance. I mean, Gaia was up and running and there's no way a human mind could compete with an artificial intelligence if Ted Faro "hacked" the computers. And even if Faro had administrative access, why even have a "delete" function at all? Everything humanity has ever known, and they didn't lock it down, make it uneditable/unalterable? All these highly intelligent people with high level access and they never consider "hey, maybe being trapped in a steel box for the rest of oir lives might affect our sanity, let's make sure we can't replace every "cloud" in the archives with "butt" if we get bored." Or fuck, even some secondary authentication in the form of "turn both keys".
If one of the goals in the next or 3rd game isn't to recover an Apollo backup, I'm going to be so pissed.
If one of the goals in the next or 3rd game isn't to recover an Apollo backup, I'm going to be so pissed.
If they're going for a trilogy, I really hope there's an APOLLO backup somewhere else in the world. Sobeck had already died before the Alphas were killed so maybe she made one that Faro didn't know about.
FallenGrace
Member
Faro was so short-sighted and ignorant. Humanity is basically starting from scratch so of course they'll be all primitive again. Fucking stupid ass rich CEOs.
it mentions in one of the data logs that the carja found 'leaves' that taught them about old world technology, & they became outcasts because of getting into this. so there's that. but the actual construction of meridian, & all the other towers/fortresses? no way this's all done in less than 700 years. i mean, hell, it even looks like it's already been there for quite a while, meaning even fewer years than that
Slavery still plays a large part the construction. As well, you have to remember that machines were much more docile and maybe even domesticated in some ways prior to GAIA blowing herself up to try and stop HADES. HEPHAESTUS then goes unchecked and either decides that more predators need to be introduced or does it as a counter to the loss of GAIA and the rise of HADES. Remember that corrupted and overridden machines are considered hostile by other robots in the field.
I also assume that there may also be more to the area surrounding the Spire than just it being an antenna to broadcast the kill code.
I'm hoping for the "forbidden west". I think the sylons stuff will be for a sequel..
Fahzgoolin
Banned
This game's plot is just bonkers and ridiculous. It's filled with plot holes.
However, it is fairly unique and the character writing is fairly good.
I'm disappointed though.
However, it is fairly unique and the character writing is fairly good.
I'm disappointed though.
Miniature Kaiju
Member
I need an expansion where Rost mauls the fuckers who killed his family, one by one. I want to hunt them, I want freedom to go savage with them, stab 'em good in the guts and play with their blood. Fuckers.
I don't remember any glaring plot holes after playing through it and I got nearly every story related data point. I liked the story myself in part because of how complete and thought out it was.
wapplew
Member
It will require the game to be hard R. Also means fighting human enemies and no Thunderjaw or stuff like that.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
I'm open to being corrected and/or informed, but there are quite a few things that I am bothered by. I read every text log and listened to every audio log I came across. It's not that I don't think it's a cool story, but I think there are too many glaring issues that just kind of ruin it for me personally. I'm sure some of my interpretations are subjective, but here are some things:
-Why do so many of the new animal machines have such crazy defense mechanisms if they are there simply to cultivate life and build the new earth's systems? Do they really need lasers, guns, crazy melee abilities, etc?
-How the heck did Zero Dawn's new animal machines even stay in existence without resistance of the "bad" machines? If the "bad" machines were gone when the new ones came around, I don't understand how they were gone in the first place. The tech in this world seems to be powered indefinitely, if not for a very very long time. Some of the tech from before the crisis is still powered on and working, so it doesn't really add up to me.
-There are so many huge carved out under ground systems just for the old world and Zero Dawn. Where did they displace so much dirt and stone and how could they possibly do that during the dangerous context of the world crisis? Seems outlandish.
-How does Aloy know how to perfectly interact with the old tech right away? I really hate how nonchalant the game is about it. She just waves her arms and hands around and perfectly does it.
-The entire concept of them coding an entire AI that is capable of not only simulating the earth and all of its systems, but capable of simulating emotion and empathy. The task alone of doing such a thing, including storing all relevant data in order to do this, seems completely ridiculous. They did this incredibly advanced thing in a short time, but somehow couldn't crack the code/glitch/hack that the machines were using on the surface.
-The idea that the machines were programmed to use biomass as an emergency energy source is a convenient plot point to set up sci-fi Armageddon. Look at how all of the "old world" technology can just sit there dormant for so long with lights and monitors and computers working properly. They don't need biomass, they just keep running. Seems they have perfected energy sources to keep things running for a very long time, without the need for some crazy dolphin slaughtering biomass meal (from a text log) to keep running LOL. Also, the machines can create other machines on a "as needed" basis, so the idea that they even needed an alternate energy source is just goofy.
-I really hated how there are these secret ruins, but the game throws human enemies at you that somehow just drop from ceiling vents in rooms behind locked doors that you have to solve to open. I rolled my eyes so hard.
-Apparently you take down the "focus network", but can still communicate with Sylens after doing so. LOL okay. If you want to argue that it was just for the villian humans, the game should have told me so. And if that is the case, how did they create a private network when they don't have much understanding of the old tech. Hades just magically assists the bad humans it seems.
-I found the Nora tribe to be incredibly stupid. Felt like a set up to make you compare them to ancient tribes, but just because ancient tribes believed in various gods that controlled nature, doesn't mean they would react to a giant metallic door that says the same thing over and over. Aloy even walks through it and the people could clearly see into it and it was just a bunch of rooms with ancient tech. You could argue that their reactions are plausible, but it's just not fleshed out in a convincing way to me. Especially considering the matriarchs are only allowed inside one of the ancient ruins in the mountain. The fact that the "old mother" was the one that delivered Aloy in the mountain next to the door, but the tribe rejected her is just so strange.
There's more I could say and more I could nit pick, but it's probably not worth it. I haven't finished the game (near the last mission), so maybe some of this stuff is explained, although I really doubt it. I just feel like the story has too many questions up to this point and it's starting to hurt my enjoyment. It didn't help that I called the plot set up after the first 2 hours of the game, so by the time I got there I just chuckled. It's a story that is fairly well told, or at least written, from a human character point of view. Just not sure it works as a whole.
Primethius
Banned
^ The first one is pretty easy to answer. It was the result of the derangement, which was due to GAIA's subroutines going rogue due to the signal that affected her. IIRC, it was Hephaestus that was in charge of the Cauldrons responsible for making monsters more and more aggressive over time.
The rest have answers to and most of those aren't plot holes to begin with.
The rest have answers to and most of those aren't plot holes to begin with.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Well, if they do have answers then great. That's awesome. Hopefully someone can take the time to explain them to me. I still think that a handful of those gripes are logically consistent and are at odds with how the story is told. *shrug*
I'm also not very satisfied with your explanation to the first question, but at least it's something. I realize that this is just a fictional story and you have to suspend disbelief in most stories, but it just didn't gel with me. I also don't like that you have to spend so much time reading text logs and listening to audio logs to get a lot of information on motivations of individuals or w/e. I'm just not into that kind of story delivery in action games like this. It also doesn't help that you can trigger several different audio conversations at once, so it becomes a mess of people talking and Aloy talking to herself. It happened so many times and really pissed me off lol
Primethius
Banned
Have you beaten the game? I'd do a write-up but I don't have the time right now. And I'm not sure I understand some of the "plot-holes" given the way the games time-line is laid out.
Your second point for example is confusing me. The new animal machines were created by Hephaestus to help partially terraform and clean-up the Earth post-Zero Dawn. Their existence is not reliant on the old machines at all.
Edit: You don't have to be satisfied with the answer but it's not a plot hole. The entire chain of events in the game is caused by the signal which corrupted GAIA's subroutines.
I'm not super worried about the "how did the Carja get so advanced" thing.
You can just assume that their advancement was GREATLY sped up by being able to examine the wreckage of the old technology and the way that the machines work. There's plenty to draw on there in order to make, say, an elevator.
You can just assume that their advancement was GREATLY sped up by being able to examine the wreckage of the old technology and the way that the machines work. There's plenty to draw on there in order to make, say, an elevator.