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[The Horror the horror]

breadth of their earlier work = Metroid Prime factory

????????

Metroid needed a break.

But if you look at Retro's cancelled projects, you get a feel of the direction they wanted to go and the driving theme of their work. An American football game, Raven Blade, that vehicle-combat title. The type of games that lend diversity to Nintendo's lineup, which is why I thought they bought them out in the first place.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Miyamoto is involved in just about every first party game to some degree.

I wouldn't say Miyamoto is completely out of the mix, but he's barring himself from getting too involved with the newer projects...

the whole thing about his new position is that he doesn't have to have oversight over every little thing anymore and that he can jump on passion projects when he wants.

TheMoon and SinCityAssassin are correct (see here), but there is at least some evidence that Miyamoto is still involved in many current first-party titles, as jariw suggests:

...in this Gamespot article, Fujibayashi notes that when they brought Breath of the Wild to Miyamoto on a weekly basis, it was by choice, not by mandate: "So starting from the early stages of development we had been constantly showing Mr. Miyamoto our progress. At times we would even show him once a week what we'd been working on...")...

Good advice from venerable moderator, EmCeeGramr:

...Stuff like this, or the thing quoted earlier in the thread where Miyamoto actually did oversee and approve the Splatoon designs that Kyle implied that Miyamoto would hate and veto because he's an old dumb-dumb, is what gets me about trying to turn Miyamoto into a living avatar of old outdated ideas: every bad idea has to be his direct fault, and every good idea he has to have nothing to do with, even though he supervises like every internally made Nintendo game. If there's something you loved about one of those, Miyamoto at the very least probably signed off on it; he wasn't tricked or forced, you just didn't get a news story about it.

Also:

...if you look at Retro's cancelled projects, you get a feel of the direction they wanted to go and the driving theme of their work. An American football game, Raven Blade, that vehicle-combat title. The type of games that lend diversity to Nintendo's lineup, which is why I thought they bought them out in the first place.

One other thing you can blame (credit?) Miyamoto for:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/issues/issue_39/235-Metroid-Primed.2
Allen Varney, The Escapist Magazine: ...Miyamoto pressured Retro to cancel several other projects... an action adventure... their football and car-combat games, and finally... a Zelda-style roleplaying game called Raven Blade. The action-adventure team shifted to Metroid... Nintendo's successful takeover of Retro contrasts with the similar case of Electronic Arts buying another Austin studio, Origin. Origin's acquisition led to its lingering, agonizing death, owing to EA's pernicious company politics... In comparison, Miyamoto's EAD unit stuck with Retro for years, maintaining continuity on a critical project, rotating in new managers until someone finally worked, and then (note well!) stopping. The results speak for themselves: Retro today is, by all accounts, a much nicer place to work. And after its halting progress in its first four years, Retro has already followed up Prime with a direct sequel, Metroid Prime: Echoes (2004)...

See also:

http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/donkey-kong-country-returns/0/0
Kensuke Tanabe: Okay. I'll never forget April 2008... I already talked about this around the time of E3 when we did a session of "Iwata Asks" for Donkey Kong Country Returns, but there was a bit of an incident when several of the core members at Retro Studios who had worked on the Metroid Prime series quit the company. I didn't know what to do, but about that time, and totally by chance, Miyamoto-san said he wanted to make a new  Donkey Kong Country game and asked if there were any good possible developers for it. I suggested Retro Studios, and that's how this project began...

Note that Retro themselves decided to return to working on DKC, after DKCR:

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...the_list_of_candidates_for_a_new_metroid_game
Andy Green, Nintendo Life: During the interview [from late 2013], Miyamoto revealed he is a great admirer of the work of Retro Studios, the developer behind the Metroid Prime series and Donkey Kong Country Returns, and said it would be high on the list of potential candidates to pick up the Metroid franchise once again... According to Retro Studios president and CEO Michael Kelbaugh, the developer had the chance to work on Metroid or Donkey Kong Country and opted for the latter because it had unfinished business with the [DKC] series...

 

[ITSMILNER]

according to LinkedIn/Wikipedia, Retro have an average of 70+employees, they must staff up during certain dev timeframes right?

 

[TheMoon]

according to LinkedIn/Wikipedia, Retro have an average of 70+employees, they must staff up during certain dev timeframes right?

Remember that, for example, they had Monster Games (who ported DKCR to 3DS) helping out with DKCTF. Also, contract workers.

Nintendo needs to let Donkey Kong go.

speak for yourself.

 

[Not75Drops]

There was a 3+ year gap in between Returns and Tropical Freeze, but that could be attributed to Retro also co-developing Mario Kart 7.

speak for yourself.

Pretty sure that they're referring to this thread.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1345633

 

[ITSMILNER]

Remember that, for example, they had Monster Games (who ported DKCR to 3DS) helping out with DKCTF. Also, contract workers

That makes sense, Monster are currently working on a NASCAR game aren't they?

 

[TheMoon]

That makes sense, Monster are currently working on a NASCAR game aren't they?

That game came out last fall.

Pretty sure that they're referring to this thread.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1345633

ugh don't remind me of that.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Not to be rude in any way, but who cares how people react at E3 to anything? Perhaps only insofar as it might spell problems for Nintendo, but, surely the games already announced for this year will be significant enough sales drivers to offset a couple gaffes?

I don't think it is necessarily true that taking a while means it has to be 3D DK. DKC: TF took a few years for example. Diddy Kong Racing could take just as long as a 3D DK, as could a 2D game, depending what happens in development. Mario Kart for example takes some years to make. Plus, there are any number of theoretical DK-adjacent games possible. Though, I would sort of assume based on their wording that the poster meant a mainline DK game, so probably 2D DK, though possibly 3D.

Do you expect them together, though? I think it's entirely possible Metroid will be developed by a different party, perhaps NLG or internally.

It's not really just E3 from Gaf. It's also the media. TF was wrongly judged being these man children didn't get a new Metroid game. There were blatant lies in reviews for TF and it upset me how the media acted like babies towards TF when it was one of the best 2D Platformers. A lot of people look at Naughty Dog and wonder why Retro can't make bigger games because they feel Retro has the talent to do something much bigger than 2D DK or another platformer in general. If they announce another 2D DK I'll love it because TF is probably my favorite 2D platformer of all time, but I would love to see them work on something bigger too.

I think Retro took a long time with TF because it was the first time they were making an HD game. Just like the rest of Nintendo it took them a while to get HD down on the Wii U. I think they've had plenty of time to make a 3D DK, but like Skittz said it could be a port of TF/DKCR that this EvB person knows about. I don't think Nintendo would make Retro do it though. Tantalus could do it or someone else. I think Miyamoto said Retro could do two projects. I can't remember though.

I expect Retros game and Metroid at E3, unless Nintendo has another big event planned this year Metroid gets announced at E3. We haven't had a main title in forever and Metroid deserves respect to be announced at the biggest stage of them all. I think a third party dev is working on a 3D Metroid and it'll be revealed at E3.

I also believe whatever Retro is working on will be revealed at E3. Again, Retro is Nintendos premier western development studio and they've always had their games revealed at E3 I believe. They should get the biggest stage too.

As far as 2D Metroid goes I really think an indie dev should do it. The Shovel Knight guys to me would be perfect. They've talked about if Nintendo asked them to make a 2D Metroid would they do it and they said yes. Lots of indie devs love the Metroidvania formula and I think there are great prospects to choose from.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

breadth of their earlier work = Metroid Prime factory

????????

And Metroid Prime got long in the tooth. Retro is a company with fresh perspectives and needs to be compelled to keep moving forward instead of staying with the same IP, because they get stale with it. It's getting that way with DK too.

I personally would love Retro take their shot at Star Fox.

As far as 2D Metroid goes I really think an indie dev should do it. The Shovel Knight guys to me would be perfect. They've talked about if Nintendo asked them to make a 2D Metroid would they do it and they said yes. Lots of indie devs love the Metroidvania formula and I think there are great prospects to choose from.

I agree. I feel that Nintendo has proven over the past decade that it does not understand the Metroid IP anymore, and is not capable of executing it with their own inner studios. The games speak for themselves. I think bringing in an outside indy-based team on contract work would absolutely be the best thing that could happen for the franchise.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

That game came out last fall.

It's a multi-year contract though. Updated - year stamp versions incoming.

 

[jdstorm]

The Sad thing about Metroid is that it seemed like a whole bunch of people at Retro essentially seemed to leave and form Armature and just to make a metroid like game (Recore)

NoA really doesnt seem to understand what they have sometimes.

As for a new Metroid. Don't Nod is probably the best choice to take over, especially with some design help from Nintendo people or others who have made successful Metroid type games.

Remember Me is proof they can do good action combat with AAA production values while Life is Strange proves they can write successful stories within the gaming medium.

 

[TheDinoman]

I personally would love Retro take their shot at Star Fox.

.

That was something I was always hoping for, before we got Star Fox Zero.

Call it "Starfox Returns" and make it the best possible followup and successor to Starfox 64 without any gimmicks or making it an inferior retread. There, the series is saved at last.

 

[Oddish1]

The Sad thing about Metroid is that it seemed like a whole bunch of people at Retro essentially seemed to leave and form Armature and just to make a metroid like game (Recore)

Pretty sure they left because they were tired of making Metroid games. But then they got stuck making Metroid-like games because that's what they're known for.

EDIT: well I guess Armature also ports a lot of games too.

 

[jdstorm]

Pretty sure they left because they were tired of making Metroid games. But then they got stuck making Metroid-like games because that's what they're known for.

Really? I havent followed it too closely. However Metroid Prime 3 is almost a decade old and Retro have seemingly been doing DKCR for most of that period, while Armature has made Recore and Bluepoint has done Uncharted Remasters (among other things)

 

[SinCityAssassin]

The Sad thing about Metroid is that it seemed like a whole bunch of people at Retro essentially seemed to leave and form Armature and just to make a metroid like game (Recore)

NoA really doesnt seem to understand what they have sometimes.

It was just three people involved with Metroid Prime who left to form Armature: the game director, the art director, and the main tech engineer.

 

[Oddish1]

Really? I havent followed it too closely. However Metroid Prime 3 is almost a decade old and Retro have seemingly been doing DKCR for most of that period, while Armature has made Recore and Bluepoint has done Uncharted Remasters (among other things)

I might be misremembering. Pacini actually just commented that he wanted to make new things that he didn't think he'd be able to do with Nintendo.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

It was just three people involved with Metroid Prime who left to form Armature: the game director, the art director, and the main tech engineer.

A lot more followed suit to Armature, Bluepoint, and others. And then after DKCR they lost the three lead designers on that game too.

according to LinkedIn/Wikipedia, Retro have an average of 70+employees, they must staff up during certain dev timeframes right?

Doesn't seem like it. Prime 1 and 2 were about 40 people and then theyve been hovering around 70 ever since.

Pretty sure they left because they were tired of making Metroid games. But then they got stuck making Metroid-like games because that's what they're known for.

EDIT: well I guess Armature also ports a lot of games too.

Jack Matthews stated in a comment on the Armature FB page that he didn't leave Retro because he was tired of making Metroid.

 

[jdstorm]

It was just three people involved with Metroid Prime who left to form Armature: the game director, the art director, and the main tech engineer.

Aren't they the 3 most important people? As a sports fan i could only imagine how badly my favourite teams would play if they lost their 3 most important players.

Wouldn't that be equivalent to Hidemaro Fujibayashi, Satoru Takizawa and Takuhiro Dohta leaving the Zelda team to form their own studio? That hardly seems like something one should write off as insignificant.


My previous comment may have implied a larger number of people then actually left, however in terms of total importance those 3 job titles seem pretty significant

 

[Dark Cloud]

I thinks it's so overblown about who left Retro. These guys left after Metroid then some more guys left after DKCR and yet they made one of the best 2D Platformers ever in DKCTF. Some may argue DKCTF is Retros best game. Retro is about having Nintendos philosophies instilled in them more than about the individuals. These guys who left haven't made anything near Metroid Prime level.

 

[Oddish1]

Aren't they the 3 most important people? As a sports fan i could only imagine how badly my favourite teams would play if they lost their 3 most important players.

Wouldn't that be equivalent to Hidemaro Fujibayashi, Satoru Takizawa and Takuhiro Dohta leaving the Zelda team to form their own studio? That hardly seems like something one should write off as insignificant.


My previous comment may have implied a larger number of people then actually left, however in terms of total importance those 3 job titles seem pretty significant

It'd probably be a bigger deal just because in Japan people tend to stay with their companies forever and Western studios tend to have a much higher turn over rate. So it's only significant in terms of cultural context that it's fairly unusual thing to do and might signal larger troubles within the team that's been unseen until now. In terms of it mattering in actual output and quality of games it's not really important unless they quit in the middle of development of a game, which they didn't. There's still a lot of talent at Retro and EPD and can cover for any sudden departures and game development teams and sportsball teams aren't really comparable in this situation at all.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

It was just three people involved with Metroid Prime who left to form Armature: the game director, the art director, and the main tech engineer.

That's... like, saying a lot. Those are literally the three most important people on the team.

 

[TheDinoman]

I thinks it's so overblown about who left Retro. These guys left after Metroid then some more guys left after DKCR and yet they made one of the best 2D Platformers ever in DKCTF. Some may argue DKCTF is Retros best game. Retro is about having Nintendos philosophies instilled in them more than about the individuals. These guys who left haven't made anything near Metroid Prime level.

Thank you, this is what I've been trying to tell people for a long time.

Retro Studios is as good as they are because they've had the guidance of important Nintendo staff like Miyamoto and Tanabe. Mark Pacini himself admitted that Metroid Prime was basically a collaboration between the west and the east, and without Nintendo's guidance, it wouldn't of turned out nearly as good. The staff at Retro initially couldn't even figure out how to incorporate the morphball into Prime, Miyamoto had to bend their arms in order to get it in there.

With all due respect, as seen by games like Recore, I think Pacini needs Nintendo more than Nintendo needs Pacini.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

I thinks it's so overblown about who left Retro. These guys left after Metroid then some more guys left after DKCR and yet they made one of the best 2D Platformers ever in DKCTF. Some may argue DKCTF is Retros best game. Retro is about having Nintendos philosophies instilled in them more than about the individuals. These guys who left haven't made anything near Metroid Prime level.

It's about the individuals that make up the larger team. That's why people get excited about Retro in a way they don't get excited about Next Level games or even some internal EAD teams. They still have a lot of senior talent from the Prime days that has enabled them to maintain studio culture, and with Nintendo's help, ensure the highest quality games. Their games definitely have a feel to them that is separate from Nintendo's own games.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

That's... like, saying a lot. Those are literally the three most important people on the team.

Sure, a decade ago. They're important but that doesn't mean Retro wouldn't have the right mind to replace them with other people capable.

Aren't they the 3 most important people? As a sports fan i could only imagine how badly my favourite teams would play if they lost their 3 most important players.

Wouldn't that be equivalent to Hidemaro Fujibayashi, Satoru Takizawa and Takuhiro Dohta leaving the Zelda team to form their own studio? That hardly seems like something one should write off as insignificant.

No because those three have a lot more hands in jars at Nintendo than just Zelda.

 

[jdstorm]

Thank you, this is what I've been trying to tell people for a long time.

Retro Studios is as good as they are because they've had the guidance of important Nintendo staff like Miyamoto and Tanabe. Mark Pacini himself admitted that Metroid Prime was basically a collaboration between the west and the east, and without Nintendo's guidance, it wouldn't of turned out nearly as good. The staff at Retro initially couldn't even figure out how to incorporate the morphball into Prime, Miyamoto had to bend their arms in order to get it in there.

With all due respect, as seen by games like Recore, I think Pacini needs Nintendo more than Nintendo needs Pacini.

I'm not trying to turn this into a debate about personalities. I'm also not going to be drawn into a who needs who more debate or an East vs West debate. Its all water under the bridge at this point.

However i think its telling that Nintendo somehow managed to lose 3 people who at the time had managed to play very significant roles in creating one of the great games of all time. Letting that kind of talent exodus happen just seems wasteful.

Edit: I am definitely not criticizing Retro's output post 2007. They have filled the gaps and made wonderful games. DKCTF is personally one of my top 5 favourite games.

However who's to say what type of potentially great games Armature or Bluepoint could have made had they been a Nintendo first party Spinoff studio.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

However i think its telling that Nintendo somehow managed to lose 3 people who at the time had managed to play very significant roles in creating one of the great games of all time. Letting that kind of talent exodus happen just seems wasteful.

Pacini himself said it was because they felt they wanted to move on to something entirely new and not staying comfortable at Retro.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

An NDA doesn't forbid small talk though! "Not allowed to say" is a hilarious response to "what's up?"

I'm guessing David Wise gets asked about his projects quite often.

I've often wondered why Nintendo don't sign him to an exclusive deal? He likes his independence too much I guess.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

...Mark Pacini himself admitted that Metroid Prime was basically a collaboration between the west and the east, and without Nintendo's guidance, it wouldn't of turned out nearly as good. The staff at Retro initially couldn't even figure out how to incorporate the morphball into Prime, Miyamoto had to bend their arms in order to get it in there...

Pacini talked about this in an interview last year with Ben Hanson of Game Informer:

[31:01]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbmxfTZvVCs&t=31m01s
Ben Hanson (Game Informer): Do you ever daydream about what that game [Metroid Prime] would look like if it was just a Retro title? If Nintendo just slapped their name on it at the end?
Mark Pacini: Yeah, it... Well I know what it would look like (laughs)... It would not have been anywhere as good...

Some interesting discussion on this page:

...Remember Me is proof [Dontnod] can do good action combat with AAA production values while Life is Strange proves they can write successful stories within the gaming medium.

It was just three people involved with Metroid Prime who left to form Armature: the game director, the art director, and the main tech engineer.

I might be misremembering. Pacini actually just commented that he wanted to make new things that he didn't think he'd be able to do with Nintendo.

...Jack Matthews stated in a comment on the Armature FB page that he didn't leave Retro because he was tired of making Metroid.

Pacini himself said it was because they felt they wanted to move on to something entirely new and not staying comfortable at Retro.

...However i think its telling that Nintendo somehow managed to lose 3 people who at the time had managed to play very significant roles in creating one of the great games of all time. Letting that kind of talent exodus happen just seems wasteful...I am definitely not criticizing Retro's output post 2007. They have filled the gaps and made wonderful games. DKCTF is personally one of my top 5 favourite games. However who's to say what type of potentially great games Armature or Bluepoint could have made had they been a Nintendo first party Spinoff studio.

I'm one of the bigger advocates for ReCore on this forum (one / two) – also a big Dontnod fan (one / two), incidentally – but I do wonder what Silicon Knights/Dyack and Pacini/Keller/Mathews (Armature) might have come up with on the Wii (and beyond), if they'd stayed with Nintendo.

It does seem that at least part of the motivation in each case (Silicon Knights & Armature) may have been the shift (one / two / three) in Nintendo's strategy, with the Wii:

[33:15]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbmxfTZvVCs&t=33m15s
Mark Pacini: ...really tough. It's really really difficult. So you kind of get used to that... you get used to that – almost a decade of making games [with] Nintendo you're like, ‘Wow, this is gonna be great... continue making these kind of games...' and then the harsh realities of the world set in, in terms of like, what opportunities are there...
Ben Hanson (Game Informer): So why'd you leave that safety net?
Mark Pacini: (laughs) Yeah... with anything... my whole career, even before Nintendo, when I was at Iguana, I had worked [on] only Nintendo hardware for over 10 years, and I really felt that ‘Wow, I would like to try something different', not just hardware-wise, but there's just other opportunities and other types of games and ideas that we had that I know would never be able to be done... that's not good or bad, it's just that it wouldn't be possible. So, I always wanted to either have my own or be part of a company that I own, and try it. And this was the time to do it: the Metroid series was over, we were looking at the next thing we were going to be doing, and it felt like a good time to leave, because [there were] a lot of talented people who would be able to fill in... it wasn't like necessarily leaving people in the lurch... I felt at that point in my career if I was going to do it, I was going to do it then... myself and my partners were going to try it then... you always think you're missing out on something, and yeah, there was a certain degree of a [safety net] there... at the same time... I don't like being comfortable... there's something you're always going to learn from struggling a bit, and from trying something new...

For those who may not have seen it yet, Mama Robotnik's long research thread (‘A post-mortem of Silicon Knights') is definitely worth reading:

...Eternal Darkness was entirely rebuilt for the Gamecube – with massive graphical enhancement. The project became more collaborative, with Shigeru Miyamoto providing oversight and offering feedback - and on-site visits from Satoru Iwata... Following last-minute changes, the game emerged from its long development cycle spanning two consoles, and was a huge critical success. The game would only become more fondly remembered as the years went on...

...Shortly after the release of Eternal Darkness, Satoru Iwata and Shigeru Miyamoto offered Dyack the opportunity for Silicon Knights to work with one of gaming's most beloved franchises... SK had raised so much prestige within Nintendo, that they were named to Hideo Kojima on Shigeru Miyamoto's personal recommendation... With the successful releases of Eternal Darkness and Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes, SK was a proven and popular developer... There were many, many requests for a sequel to Eternal Darkness – but Silicon Knights had other ideas...

Its 2004. Silicon Knights have just released Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes. Denis Dyack and his team are being recommended for high-profile projects by Shigeru Miyamoto himself. Fans are demanding a sequel to Eternal Darkness. The company has funding, project security, and guidance from the oldest gaming company in existence... Silicon Knights had never been in a more secure position... Then all of a sudden, news breaks: Silicon Knights, the company "exceedingly close" to Nintendo's highest executives, the alliance that would definitely "never" end, ended. The reason? Nintendo Wii... Dyack wanted more power to achieve his vision – and the Wii would not fulfil this... The two companies parted ways, and Dyack ordered Silicon Knights or work on the fourth incarnation of Too Human, for the Xbox 360...

 

[Dark Cloud]

It's about the individuals that make up the larger team. That's why people get excited about Retro in a way they don't get excited about Next Level games or even some internal EAD teams. They still have a lot of senior talent from the Prime days that has enabled them to maintain studio culture, and with Nintendo's help, ensure the highest quality games. Their games definitely have a feel to them that is separate from Nintendo's own games.

Nintendo sets the tone. Retro Studios follows Nintendos core philosophies. The same thing Nintendo does in Japan regardless of who's running the ship. I'm not taking anything away from the guys at Retro because they wouldn't be there if they didn't have great talent and minds.

All these guys who left Retro and yet Retro continues to churn out great games. Michael Kelbaugh? I believe runs the show at Retro and he establishes the culture there. He deserves a lot of credit too. I'm just saying these "key" Metroid Prime guys left and they haven't been able to make a high pedigree title on their own.

People overdue the whole "well these guys left so Retro isn't capable of making this game or that game". They have great talent and individuals and they can continue to churn out great game after great game because of the philosophies and culture thats been established.

People do get excited for NLG too. They make great games. MPFF didn't do good, but that's definitely more on Nintendo. Also, NLG didn't start off making big games like Retro did with Metroid Prime. Retro is 100% Nintendo unlike NLG also.

 

[joedick]

...

It does seem that at least part of the motivation in each case (Silicon Knights & Armature) may have been the shift (one / two / three) in Nintendo’s strategy, with the Wii:

I recall an episode of IGN's NVC podcast where Dyack said one of the reasons they left Nintendo was that they were only greenlighting party games during the Wii era.

 

[ITSMILNER]

By all accounts Retro is in a good place with a highly talented team so i'm not worried in relation to the quality of whatever they make next. I would also like to see a sequel to DKC:TF but bringing back King K Rool and the Kremlins

 

[Jo Shishido's Cheeks]

It's good he's not in the mix. I love Miyamoto, but he's done more harm than good I feel. He's been out of the loop for awhile now.

The Good:
-Instrumental in the formation of video games.
-Continually reinvented, redefined and innovated the form across three decades.
-Formed the codes and conventions of both 2D and 3D gaming.
-Directed and produced some of the greatest games in history.
-Created the biggest franchise in history.

The Bad:
-Suggested a stripping back of narrative for a handheld Paper Mario, a suggestion that was based on fan feedback in Japan!
-Made a dodgy Star Fox game.


Well shit you're right, he's definitely done more harm than good!
Miyamoto still oversees every game Nintendo makes.
He's still there every single day.
He's just chosen to no longer head any development teams.
Other than that, nothing changed. All these things 'Nintendo are suddenly getting so right without Miyamoto in the way' go through Miyamoto!

 

[Jo Shishido's Cheeks]

Miyamoto disrespect is disgusting.
Gamers are so damn ungrateful.

 

[maxcriden]

Miyamoto disrespect is disgusting.
Gamers are so damn ungrateful.

It's not as though two controversial games are a reasonable basis to strip away his accomplishments. Especially when he is usually the only one blamed for those games, which may not be unreasonable (for all we know those games may have been much worse without his assistance) and this is putting aside the work he does on many other Nintendo games and never gets credit for, as you indicated. Not only that, but there are recent beloved products like Pikmin 3 which people readily forget when trying to create a narrative of his incompetence. I suspect none of BOTW or the Switch's success will be attributed to him.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I suspect none of BOTW or the Switch's success will be attributed to him.

Considering the amount of times I see people omitting his efforts despite a majority of interviews talking about how his design touch on the game allowed it to become alive, makes me think that could happen eventually

 

[blu]

It does seem that at least part of the motivation in each case (Silicon Knights & Armature) may have been the shift (one / two / three) in Nintendo's strategy, with the Wii:

Let me throw in a couple of cents from that era (xb360 launch), as I've attended both Dyack public dev talks, as well as worked with some of his former employees for a long while (all talented guys).

Each time I've listened to Dyack in person he gave me the impression he was chasing some dreams of grandeur - he was clearly after the AAA-budget hollywood-style games. To the point he was used by MS as the poster-dev to sell on the HD-cinematic-experience-AAA-hollywood idea at talks and conferences. That impression was only reinforced by the recollections of his former employees I worked with. SK's most acclaimed in-house projects have all been development-hell stories, of endless transitions from one hw gen to another, in search of meeting that grandeur vision. So nintendo's role in the case of SK has been pretty much the same as with the Retro case - only that in the case of SK Dyack did not learn - on the contrary, his success with nintendo reinforced his modus operandi. From my POV, Dyack had it coming for a long while, way before he got in conflict with Epic.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

So as Kimishima originally stated, all 3 mobile Nintendo releases have been developed by their respective teams in-house.

Super Mario Run by NSMBU/Super Mario Maker staff
Miitomo by Tomodachi Collection 2 / Tomodachi Life staff
Fire Emblem Heroes by Fire Emblem/IS staff

Both teams hovered around the 20-30 personnel (not counting the additional contractors used on these projects).

 

[LegendofLex]

The Bad:
- Oversaw Nintendo EAD during its worst-ever years (he is no longer in charge of today's EPD)
- Was a lead hardware person on Nintendo's two worst-performing tentpole platforms, the first of which he was the primary lead on, and which led to Nintendo's first-ever operating loss
- Completely ignored the selling power of 2D Mario for 15 years after the release of SMW to focus on pushing 3D Mario instead (during a period that corresponded with Nintendo's worst sales performance before Wii U)
- Continued to sabotage 2D Mario by holding back fan-favorite features (like playable Peach + 4 unique playable characters) for stupid reasons (animating Peach's dress) while greenlighting the same ideas for 3D Mario, resulting in a series of uninspired 2D Mario games - and the first time in history that new 2D Mario games didn't outsell their contemporary 3D Mario titles by many millions of copies
- Allowed Eiji Aonuma to stay in charge of the Zelda series even while the series completely missed the open-world demand explosion of the last 10 years, with its average sales slumping while its associated genres soared to unprecedented sales heights

Fixed that for you.

I have massive respect for the dude, but he's been a major factor in the decline of Nintendo.

 

[Cuningas de Häme]

That must be some elaborate joke, right?

I mean, damn. Some people...

 

[Takat]

He also created Pikmin.

He's design philosophy is what shaped Nintendo to be what it is today, coming from his industrial design background. Which you can see in his games.

I honestly don't get the hate. No one can have a perfect record.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Fixed that for you.

I have massive respect for the dude, but he's been a major factor in the decline of Nintendo.

Uh....huh.

 

[LegendofLex]

Uh....huh.

Why do you think he was the manager for EAD? Did you think that he would be in charge but absolved of all responsibility for their generally underperforming output?

 

[Interfectum]

Well this thread really shit the bed.

 

[Not75Drops]

Who exactly was clamoring for open-world Zelda until just a few years ago? I even remember some being pretty skeptical when it was first announced. If anything, people wanted it to go the Souls route.

 

[AquaWateria]

I don't understand why GAF has a hate boner for Miyamoto.

 

[Xun]

Who exactly was clamoring for open-world Zelda until just a few years ago? I even remember some being pretty skeptical when it was first announced. If anything, people wanted it to go the Souls route.

"An open-world Zelda game by a Japanese developer? Pfft!"

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

Nintendo sets the tone. Retro Studios follows Nintendos core philosophies. The same thing Nintendo does in Japan regardless of who's running the ship. I'm not taking anything away from the guys at Retro because they wouldn't be there if they didn't have great talent and minds.

All these guys who left Retro and yet Retro continues to churn out great games. Michael Kelbaugh? I believe runs the show at Retro and he establishes the culture there. He deserves a lot of credit too. I'm just saying these "key" Metroid Prime guys left and they haven't been able to make a high pedigree title on their own.

People overdue the whole "well these guys left so Retro isn't capable of making this game or that game". They have great talent and individuals and they can continue to churn out great game after great game because of the philosophies and culture thats been established.

People do get excited for NLG too. They make great games. MPFF didn't do good, but that's definitely more on Nintendo. Also, NLG didn't start off making big games like Retro did with Metroid Prime. Retro is 100% Nintendo unlike NLG also.

We've seen several Western studios make great games under Nintendo production. Obviously when a developer has access to a great IP, a decent budget and window, and reasonable veteran producers, well you get gold more often than coal. The clash lately has been between what Nintendo thinks will sell to the masses, and what the die hard fans actually want (or think they want).

 

[Schopenhauerian]

I recall an episode of IGN's NVC podcast where Dyack said one of the reasons they left Nintendo was that they were only greenlighting party games during the Wii era.

Let me throw in a couple of cents from that era (xb360 launch), as I've attended both Dyack public dev talks, as well as worked with some of his former employees for a long while (all talented guys). Each time I've listened to Dyack in person he gave me the impression he was chasing some dreams of grandeur - he was clearly after the AAA-budget hollywood-style games...

It's an interesting subject, thanks for the posts!

It's also perhaps notable how complimentary/conciliatory Dyack is towards Miyamoto/Iwata/Nintendo in present-day interviews (one / two), in contrast to someone like Jez San (one / two)

It's not as though two controversial games are a reasonable basis to strip away his accomplishments...

Uh....huh.

...The clash lately has been between what Nintendo thinks will sell to the masses, and what the die hard fans actually want (or think they want).

It's interesting to follow these discussions. I know that many disagreed with Miyamoto's/Nintendo's choices & strategies during the Wii era (despite the commercial success), but prior to the Wii U, I don't think that Miyamoto's competence was widely questioned:

I'm not sure that's quite an accurate characterization, given that Miyamoto himself reversed course with the Wii, as described here and here (Okamoto: "Wii Play, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, and Wii Music were all part of Miyamoto's connected 'Wii Project.' One day, Miyamoto gathered producers and directors in EAD and showed us how we were going to group together and sell the various prototypes...")...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2011/dec/08/miyamoto-not-retiring-says-nintendo
Dec 8, 2011: "MIYAMOTO NOT RETIRING, SAYS NINTENDO... According to Reuters, in the wake of the Wired story Nintendo shares fell 2% to ¥11,040 (£90) – a practical demonstration of how important Miyamoto is to the company. Consequently, at 10am on Thursday, Nintendo issued the following statement..."

Also, while Miyamoto has indeed expressed regret about commercial underperformance during the N64 and GameCube eras (two eras which I'd guess were preferred over the Wii era by many folks here, despite the greater commercial success of the Wii), it's clear to me that Miyamoto, Iwata, Tezuka, Koizumi and company have at least thought carefully about how to best manage the Mario franchise (one / two), since the debut of Mario in 3D with Mario 64.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

We've seen several Western studios make great games under Nintendo production. Obviously when a developer has access to a great IP, a decent budget and window, and reasonable veteran producers, well you get gold more often than coal.

People do get excited for NLG too. They make great games. MPFF didn't do good, but that's definitely more on Nintendo. Also, NLG didn't start off making big games like Retro did with Metroid Prime. Retro is 100% Nintendo unlike NLG also.

It's different with Retro. What other western studios, or even Nintendo's own Japan studios, have nearly their entire output appear over and over in GOAT discussions?

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

This thread is great. So much info I didn't know!

Is the Miyamoto table flipping incident at Retro true or just fan created?