asdasdasdbb
Member
If there is one thing that is 100% happening... it is that the Pro will not be sold at a loss. Hell, they just raised the price of the DE to minimize the DE's loss.
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PS5 Pro devkits arrive at third-party studios, Sony expects Pro specs to leak
- Thread starter Bernoulli
- Start date
If there is one thing that is 100% happening... it is that the Pro will not be sold at a loss. Hell, they just raised the price of the DE to minimize the DE's loss.
I agree with those saying maybe after GDC we'll get more leaks.
Which reminds me I've been looking forward to seeing more Rift Apart GDC talks. Need to see if any more are up on Youtube.
Ppl expecting X and Y for specs or being disappointed in the specs, remember Sony wants to either make a profit or not take too much of a loss. Its gonna be one or the other.
One of the weirdest post I've seen is saying Sony shoulda went with Zen 3 in 2020. These consoles arent made in a couple of months. IIRC PS5 and Series console chips were all finalized in 2019. And they all started development before 2019. Or that poster meant the console(s) shoulda been delayed until Zen 3 was an option at launch.
It would be good to factor that in when talking about what a company could have and should have done with specs. If I was making a console I wouldnt wanna take massive losses just for marketing points. Thats just me.
Me building a PC for personal use is one thing, me trying to run/operate a business is a whole different beast.
Which reminds me I've been looking forward to seeing more Rift Apart GDC talks. Need to see if any more are up on Youtube.
Agree.
Ppl expecting X and Y for specs or being disappointed in the specs, remember Sony wants to either make a profit or not take too much of a loss. Its gonna be one or the other.
One of the weirdest post I've seen is saying Sony shoulda went with Zen 3 in 2020. These consoles arent made in a couple of months. IIRC PS5 and Series console chips were all finalized in 2019. And they all started development before 2019. Or that poster meant the console(s) shoulda been delayed until Zen 3 was an option at launch.
It would be good to factor that in when talking about what a company could have and should have done with specs. If I was making a console I wouldnt wanna take massive losses just for marketing points. Thats just me.
Me building a PC for personal use is one thing, me trying to run/operate a business is a whole different beast.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
They sell the PS5 at what they sell it because they can. But its weird pricing, its not priced to sell. Case in point, the PS5+disc bundles actually both come with a game, spiderman 2 or COD. That means you are getting a game + DD for $50 extra. When you see prices like that, you know they are just pushing people to buy the $500 bundle. When that bundle disappears, I expect the stand-alone PS5 to drop from $450 to $399.
I don't know about them selling the thing for a loss, but they aren't going to be selling it for a profit either if that means it has a price tag of $600/$650. I don't expect it to be sold for anything more than $499. Without a DD. And I expect that it could have a BOM of anything from $450-$550.
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asdasdasdbb
Member
The Slim's BOM seems pretty likely to be somewhere in the $450-$475 range as it is. The Pro is easily going to be more than that.
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playsaves3
Banned
The same thing was said about the ps5 and 3080 and look what happened there are fringe games where they are within %5 of each other like the last of us and rift apart
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Of course not.
The OG 2020 PS5 DDV had a BOM of $450 on a 7nm process which accounts for a ~319mm2 APU.
The current 6nm PS5 has a ~250mm2 APU, no disc drive, cost reductions things like cooling, PCB, RAM, PSU and likely even on SSD cost or even slightly cheaper. There is not a chance in hell that it has a BOM that is the same as the 2020 PS5.
And that DD add-on they are selling for $80 can't cost them more than $40.
I don't know how you guys are getting your BOM pricing. For some perspective, if you just take a look at DRAM exchange you will find that all 16GB of GDDR6 RAM probably cost Sony less than $45 now. But cost around $80 in 2020. And you can also see the pricing of and flash storage too. And then there is that its using a smaller-sized chip on a very mature node. Sony sells the PS5 at the price they sell them now because the demand is there. And they are making a decent profit on each unit sold.
That's why they can price the PS5 slim +disc drive + bundled game all for $499. If the only bundle that existed was Spiderman, we could say that's a write-off off being that its first party, but they also have the COD bundle. No matter what Sony would be giving Activision at least $40 for each of those bundles.
Audiophile
Gold Member
playsaves3
Banned
I don’t believe the spec leaks if you wanted my opinion
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yep. Ram and ssd prices have crashed since 2020. Add in smaller apu and smaller heatsink and their break even point is likely $300.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Exactly, and thsta what people are ignoring when they are making these $600-$700 PS5pro predictions. They don't factor in that right now it probably cost Sony around 2/3rd now of what it cost them to make the PS5 disc edition in 2020.
I just don't see the PS5pro costing more than $500. At that price, it wouldn't be coming with a disc drive, but I can't see them price it at $600+. And that long overdue price drop for the standard PS5 would come around then I am guessing. Though to be honest, I expect the $450 SKU to drop to $399 around Apr this year, as I expect there to be no more $499 bundles after March. Unless sales don't drop at all for whatever reason though.
The Pro paper specs can definitely be in line with a 4080, it's just the real world use matching the paper specifications.
Zathalus
Member
Because the games were not designed for PC in mind and required extensive porting working and post launch patches to get them in an acceptable state. This is not evidence of the PS5 punching above its weight, it's evidence of a subpar porting job. You don't get these results outside of a handful of Sony ports.
PeteBull
Member
Nope they cant, unless sony can make ps5pr0 from downclocking/downvolting strongest current chip amd has made, so 7900xtx, that on 3nm could somewhat make into 220W tpd total console power, otherwise no chance
Ofc not talking price of such console, just actual physical possibility that it could be actually made to reach similar specs/actual power as 4080.
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-rtx-4080.c3888 look how strong 4080 is vs best amd has to offer currently, so 7900xtx, and its made on 5nm, if its put into 3nm then maybe its somewhat managable to get that current 5nm 355 tdp into 220W total powerdraw for whole console(including cpu. so likely gpu alone cant go over 180W), we talking pure rasterisation here ofc.
Tldr its basically impossible, for late 2024 launch, i think for late 2026 tho not out of the question.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
There's just no way this thing is close to a 4080. It would be amazing but there is no chance.
Maybe system performance might be close to a 4080 if it was being coupled with an amd fx 4300 from 2012.
I know that's a bit extreme hyperbole wise but the 4080 is a 1,099 pound gpu on its own.
Maybe system performance might be close to a 4080 if it was being coupled with an amd fx 4300 from 2012.
I know that's a bit extreme hyperbole wise but the 4080 is a 1,099 pound gpu on its own.
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I get how AMD tabulates its GPU performance ,but is out of context on your list. If the Pro reall did have 6912 SP + dual issuing, the TFLOPS would be about 70 TFLOPS.Here's my hopeful spec list to keep you going in the meantime..
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What are you talking about? TFLOPS and fill-rate could be the same on the Pro vs a 4080,the issue is practical performance.
ChiefDada
Member
I haven't seen this but if true my guess would be VRAM bottleneck for 10gb 3080. That shouldn't ever be an issue with 16gb VRAM for 4080. I expect PS5 Pro to slot between eventual 4070S 16gb and 4080 in rasterization AND raytracing when taking into account optimization, memory configuration, etc. A 2x + raw RT boost suggests a generational improvement above RDNA 3 RT. I wouldn't be surprised if PS5 Pro consistently beats 4070 class in RT workloads particularly at higher resolution/native 4k.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
People are in for a massive let down thinking the Pro will rival the 4080 especially the ones thinking the TF number will be close to the same
mitchman
Gold Member
Also called the Osborne Effect, for those interested, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect
Et3rn1ty
Neo Member
I think the majority of this forum doesnt know how connected you are and they keep ignoring you..
If the knew that you where the one that you were right for ps5 specs maybe they listen but it seems the majority of this forum doestn have a good memory or they are very new...
asdasdasdbb
Member
It should be more like the 4070 in TF (~30)
Inflation wiped the cost savings of the Slim and then some.
Wouldn't be surprised if they had to make a decision on whether to go even higher than $599 sans drive or gimp the specs... and chose the latter.
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
It wont be that powerful on paper, real world performance only in trading blows with the 4070
Now much further down the road we may very well see that number with the very next console that launches
Baki
Member
It’s a niche product designed for enthusiasts, the Pro is not meant to expand audience. It’s like the dual sense edge. Therefore they won’t sell the product at a loss. They will likely want to profit on it.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
People still using TF as a measure of performance not knowing that NVIDIA's cards have insane compute because they stopped focusing on gaming architectures with Ampere. The gaming performance is a byproduct of their main target.
The 4090 in compute is over 60% faster than the 4080 but in gaming workloads, it's more like 30-35%. Now throw at them tasks they were actually made for and watch the 4090 wipe the floor with its smaller sibling.
The 4090 in compute is over 60% faster than the 4080 but in gaming workloads, it's more like 30-35%. Now throw at them tasks they were actually made for and watch the 4090 wipe the floor with its smaller sibling.
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Audiophile
Gold Member
Jumping ahead to PS6 for a mo'. One thing I'd like to see would be universal, system-level support for hardware-accelerated upscaling and frame generation. Hopefully by then we'll be on FSR5+ and or a Sony hybrid solution and the quality will be much, much better.
It'd just be a straight, automated, system-level feature.
It'd be nice if devs just got to focus on hitting something like ~1440p @ 40fps and/or 60fps internally; then the system just took care of the rest getting you to 4K 60fps and/or 4K "up to" 120fps VRR respectively in games. Pretty much guaranteeing higher framerate options no matter what. An advanced system menu could be provided so that you could limit or tweak certain games; or even turn it off if you desire. I'd also think it'd be fair at this point for Sony to mandate something like 1152p or 1296p as a minimum internal resolution. Once you start crossing that 1080p region, even the best scaling tech looks crusty on a large 4K display.
Devs could of course opt to override this, setting their own totally custom or hybridised solution as default. But it'd be nice for their just to be a guaranteed, in-built function and some reasonable mandates to ensure that all games are can hit 60fps and a solid 4k-like image no matter what.
My hope by then is that dedicated hardware for this functionality has less reliance and less of a performance hit on the rest of the GPU and general compute; while also occupying a very small amount of die area. In turn providing a near-free performance bump.
It'd just be a straight, automated, system-level feature.
It'd be nice if devs just got to focus on hitting something like ~1440p @ 40fps and/or 60fps internally; then the system just took care of the rest getting you to 4K 60fps and/or 4K "up to" 120fps VRR respectively in games. Pretty much guaranteeing higher framerate options no matter what. An advanced system menu could be provided so that you could limit or tweak certain games; or even turn it off if you desire. I'd also think it'd be fair at this point for Sony to mandate something like 1152p or 1296p as a minimum internal resolution. Once you start crossing that 1080p region, even the best scaling tech looks crusty on a large 4K display.
Devs could of course opt to override this, setting their own totally custom or hybridised solution as default. But it'd be nice for their just to be a guaranteed, in-built function and some reasonable mandates to ensure that all games are can hit 60fps and a solid 4k-like image no matter what.
My hope by then is that dedicated hardware for this functionality has less reliance and less of a performance hit on the rest of the GPU and general compute; while also occupying a very small amount of die area. In turn providing a near-free performance bump.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
About what I'm expecting. Perhaps 4070 Ti level of performance in exclusive titles but that's assuming Nixxes and other studios don't get a better handle of the PC platform. I mean, ND can't possibly make a worse port than TLOU. There's nowhere to go but up since a lot of the ports were first attempts using engines that had never seen the light of day on PC.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I think (hope) by 30TF he was doing that new thing AMD and Nvidia does when counting TFs. So basically, translated I think he is saying RDNA1/2 15TF or "RDNA3+ "30TF".
Well, I at least hope that's what he's saying.
Bernardougf
Member
Give me quality mode sets at 60 fps.. ray tracing can wait till next gen I really dont care.
Dont care about pricing either .. and neither should sony since it is a niche entusiast product.
Dont care about pricing either .. and neither should sony since it is a niche entusiast product.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Agreed. I was even hoping they do something like that at the start of this gen, and now maybe with the PS5pro. But I can see it being built into the SDK on the PS6. Like there be some sort of PS standard reconstrutor and frame gen called PSR or something like that. And it would be AI hardware accelerated and something devs can just enable as long as their engine has all the temporal data readout from doing something like TAA in their engine.
Feel Sony and MS missed a trick not building that into the current-gen consoles. Especially being that frame reconstruction is the single biggest game design feature this generation. Hell, even the first showing of a game running on PS5 with that unreal demo was using Epics TSR. That right there was the writing on the wall.
And to think Sony spearheaded all this reconstruction stuff with their hardware implementation of CBR on the PS4pro. Dunno what happened with the PS5.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I think that is spot on then maybe up to 17, has been my guess all along
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Same here, well I am between 16-17. I am curious to see how much at least sony first party makes use of the dual issue compute though. Its about time we actually see a game use it. Its pretty much been ignored on the PC side of things on both AMD and Nvidia cards.
PaintTinJr
Member
Then I assume it is only about 15TF/s in AMD FP32 specs and about 30TF/s in FP16, if it is only trading blows with a 4070 and using the pre-emptive frequency scaling of the PS5, and cache scrubbers too.
Trading blows with a 4070 without the expense of dedicated RT/AI units makes me think they'd possibly go for two PS5 enhanced APUs working in tandem as the solution, but where the second APU is mainly used through an SDK as a dedicated AI/RT processor, like the way the Nvidia cards provide AI/RT features. The Pro would then be a relatively easy support option for devs by providing high fps through the second chip doing AI upscaling and frame-gen like Xe/DLSS, and the RT enhancement would just run in parallel of standard PS5 rendering on the first chip - but without the burden of RT done on that chip - before results were combined.
That would certainly keep costs down, deliver on target audience enhancements over PS5, avoid looking like a new console gen, and still make the burden on devs easy, while also remaining flexible to advances of RT/AI processing to rewrite the capabilities of the second APU and SDK as needed, and possibly still offer a to-the-metal solution for First party developers or the likes of Rockstar to just use both APUs as they like, and without too much worry that the PS6 was unable to offer 72CUs to provide a easy path for B/C.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think $599 is reasonable. $600+ is not happening.
Sony will want to make a profit on it Day one so that rules out $499. Maybe the disc less one. But they know people will pay $550 for the base console, they are going to get greedy.
I just hope with a $599 price tag, they don’t skimp on the gpu tflops and the vram size and bandwidth. Fuck the secret sauce, ssd and other haptics bullshit and focus on the most powerful gpu you can put in there with enough rt and ai accelerated cores to do rt at 60 fps and decent resolutions.
I’m afraid that if they go with $499 then they will have to skimp on either the gpu size or vram bandwidth or both. And I’d rather they just say fuck it and release a $599 console that has the ipc gains to make a 17 tflops card perform like a 20 tfops card and a 25 tflops amd card in rt performance .
They will need 20 gb vram at 700 GBps, and a 350~380 mm2 chip with rt and tensor cores. And that’s not going to be $499.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Regardless of specs, I'm more curious if Xbox/PS gaming will be like PC so much that games are basically BC forever. All you need is a built in emulator for super oldies. If GOG can do the work for gamers so anyone with a modern machine can play games from the 1980s it cant be that hard for console makers to do the same since the specs are now PC parts.
If any console maker cuts the cord killing everyone's digital library they are DOA before the console even launches.
If any console maker cuts the cord killing everyone's digital library they are DOA before the console even launches.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Fair point. If they take a loss and sell it without the DD for $499 or they sell it for $599. I still feel it will have a BOM of $550.
I don't see them using 20GB, I think they stick with 16GB. Technically, the PS5pro won't be doing anything that means it would need "more" RAM compared to the PS5. Its pretty much using the same assets albeit running it at a slightly higher rez and framerate. I feel the bandwidth bump will be more relevant though, and it's cheaper for them to do that using faster RAM chips than going with a 320bit bus which in addition to meaning they use more RAM chips, also means a more complex PCB and space taken up by the 2 extra mem PHY controllers in the chip.
Also think it doesn't come with a disk drive but will be compatible with the current DD attachment.
Outside the AI cores already present in the RDNA3 compute unit, I don't see them adding or using a separate one. I Don't expect the APU to be any bigger than 320mm2 either.
AMD GPU do have dedicated hardware for RT/AI, it's just not separate enough to be as fast as possible,they share resources as a WGP. Also,the dual issue support of RDNA3 gives the GPU ,in theory double the FLOPS of prior RDNA cards.
rnlval
Member
6 nm fabricated "Zen 2" has improvements with pref/watt.
My Gigabyte RTX 4080 Gaming OC's "one-click" overclock can reach 2.9 GHz which is roughly 56.4 TFLOPS. This year's AD103 is RTX 4080 Super which is about 59 TFLOPS at 2.9 Ghz.
RX 7900 XT has 51.48 TFLOPS at 2394 Mhz. Most RX 7900 XT can match RX 7900 XTX's 2499 Mhz clock speed.
RX 7900 XTX has 61.42 TFLOPS at 2499 Mhz.
RTX 3080 has +29 TFLOPS at 1710 Mhz with 68 SM and 96 ROPS. RTX 3080's RT cores fully accelerate DXR.
RTX 4070 has +29 TFLOPS at 2475 Mhz. RTX 4070 Super in 2024.
RX 7800 XT has 37 TFLOPS at 2430 Mhz.
RTX 4070 Ti has 40 TFLOPS at 2610 Mhz. RTX 4070 Ti Super in 2024.
Both Ampere/Lovelace SM and RDNA 3 CU have 128 FP shader units without corresponding TMU increases. Both AMD and NVIDIA are doubling FLOPS power per CU/SM without increasing TMUs which can benefit workloads like RT denoise and geometry workloads.
With Ampere/Lovelace and RDNA 3 generation, AMD and NVIDIA TFLOPS are roughly similar when AMD's RT issue is removed. AMD needs to improve FLOPS per chip area. Fixing RT cores RDNA 3.5 will help with PC's GPU market competition.
RTX 4090 is a monster GPU with a monster price tag.
SegaSnatcher
Member
Some people are expecting next gen specs for a Pro model of the base console, come on be realistic.
Its literally going to take the same approach as the PS4 Pro. 2x GPU performance, same CPU with boosted frequency, maybe some additional memory to open up more of the GDDR6 memory for games. It is not rocket science. They aren't going to release some $700+ monster. It'll be $549.99 tops.
Its literally going to take the same approach as the PS4 Pro. 2x GPU performance, same CPU with boosted frequency, maybe some additional memory to open up more of the GDDR6 memory for games. It is not rocket science. They aren't going to release some $700+ monster. It'll be $549.99 tops.
twilo99
Member
Should workout that way unless someone does something silly and goes ARM instead of AMD and breaks everything
rnlval
Member
RDNA 1's RT is a software shader emulated in Linux Vulkan.
RDNA 2's RT accelerates box/ray intersections.
RDNA 3's RT accelerates DXR flags for early cull subtree functions. BVH Transverse is still done on shaders with double FLOPS per RDNA CU. RDNA 3 CU has two tensor-like AI accelerator logic blocks. AMD is missing DLSS (pixel reconstruction AI) and ray reconstruction AI software for its RDNA 3's AI accelerators.
RDNA 3.5 and 4.0 are on AMD's roadmap. Hopefully, RDNA 3.5's RT completes the DXR hardware acceleration.
rnlval
Member
PS3 RSX is a mix of 90nm 7900 GT with 7600 GT 128-bit memory bandwidth. GeForce 8800 GTX (G80) was released a few weeks ahead of PS3's November 2006 release. NVIDIA released 90 nm fabricated G71 and G73 around March 2006. PS3 GPU is a semi-customized G71 since it is a 90 nm implementation.
G80 engineering sample leaks was September 2006.
G80 tape out was around March 2006.
7800 GTX uses TSMC's older 130 nm process node.
PS4 has Hawaii-improved Pitcairn Radeon HD 7850+/R7-265 with a 256-bit memory bus.
PS4 Pro has Polaris with Vega-like RPM-enhanced R7-470 with a 256-bit memory bus.
GeForce 8800 GTX was 1st PC GPU to reach 179 watts.
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PeteBull
Member
Tons possibilities to market, simple things work best- most powerful console at barely higher price from base ps5(say 600?) with double rt capabilities(they could even give that tflop number, ofc it wont be same tflops as in base ps5, meaning if compared to ps5 those ~30tflops are only 16-17"old" tflops, still i bet u any non casual player will go for ps5pr0 instead of base given choice and such a tiny price difference, and many casuals will too, actually
"New and improved", now experience access to ultimate power, they can even market having older(ps5 and ps4) games running better on it too, so like- experience ur old games library in whole new light, and those few sentences i though of in a matter of few minutes as non native english speaker- imagine what whole sony marketing departament can think of ;D
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
You are unrealistic as that is not a mass market console range and pricing for a PlayStation console and for some reason you still want a real PS6 like generational jump ahead of schedule even though technology is still slowing down more and more year over year (and has been since before PS4 launched).
I do want to see more focus on AI and would love for something like XDNA or some custom AI/ML accelerator to be added to the SoC, but I see something smaller taken from RDNA3/4’s feature sets, I see Sony starting to build tools and spending money doing more and more software R&D with that and then to include an XDNA2.x accelerator inside PS6 as one of the New Dreams Cerny likes to include in the console or like they push RT as one of the GPU revolution pillars.
Part of the appeal of making a Pro console for Sony is that they likely get a good deal from AMD of a die shrink of their base console, they get to R&D some stuff they are working on for PS6, and they get to keep the console’s ASP high or even higher if they can get people to take the bait of new iterative HW ahead of schedule.
If PS5 Pro delivers 4K Spider-man 2 in the 40 FPS quality mode with improved 3D models data in the BVH and thus higher detail and resolution RT reflections (with maybe some RTAO too, screen space AO has issues you start to develop an eye for in motion) then it would match what non PS5 Pro exclusives can bring. This is a console coming out barely 4 years after the base console was released, it was not enough last gen for a new console generational jump and it is even less time now than what you would need for a large jump from the base console.
winjer
Gold Member
It's still the same architecture.
PaintTinJr
Member
The reason why AMD don't directly trade blows with Nvidia in RT/AI use (in games) is because their solution is far more flexible to change and more flexible to utilise all the silicon at the same time.
IMHO neither Sony or AMD have any interest in these early wins that Nvidia have kept posting since the RTX series began. It is a long road ahead with RT and AI, and for PlayStation life cycles being +6year gens full flexibility trumps early throughput. Without flexibility obsolete techniques in a box like a PS5 effectively traps console devs in the past, removing from the discussion of cutting edge techniques, so IMO a RT/AI solution consuming an entire PS5 APU, or in AMD's case - outside of DirectX certification - just offering enough acceleration for things that won't change radically - like BVH intersection test engines - but not for higher parts of the RT pipeline like Nvidia Tensor cores do, so AMD hardware can transcend with newer techniques - just changing higher level algorithms - but at increasingly compromised resolutions/performance.
Physiognomonics
Member
20.9 TF at 2.721ghz on 5nm process with 60CUs. This is why I am expecting PS5 Pro to reach 20 TF if it uses at least the 5nm node. And I don't see it using less than that one year after 7800 XT. Sony will need 2.6 ghz to reach 20 tf and I expect they will hit that (or very close to it) with their dynamic clocks.60CU 64MB L3 256bit 624GB/s
Average GPU clock 2721 MHz
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SmokSmog
Member
Yep, technically RDNA3 will be two years old when PS5 Pro will release. 7800XT was delayed on purpose cuz AMD was sitting on unsold RDNA2 GPUs after the crypto crash.