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[StreetsofBeige]

I agree that the arcade ladders in VF1 and 2 lack variation of most fighting games. I would also say the opponent AI of Virtua Fighter 2 is absolutely irredeemable garbage in the hall of shame right next to Mortal Kombat 2 (ARC). The first Virtua Fighter is a better prototype for its own franchise than the first two Tekkens are. Virtua Fighter 3 and Fighters Megamix are up there with Tekken 3 and Dead or Alive 2 as far as the quality of 3D fighting. They also have relatively large move lists.

Ah thanks. So I wasnt imagining it. The only fighting game I've ever played with fixed opponent schedules.

As for AI it was dumb as rocks and also canned. For example, when I used Jacky you could always nail the cpu right away with one of those big roundhouse kicks. It's like the AI always gives you the first strong attack as a gimme. But then, if you try it again, the cpu turned on a separate logic mode and landing it a second time was almost impossible.

But it would never be the reverse, where it was hard to land right away but the second time is easy.

Beating opponents with Jacky was easy too. I never even used his flash kick. I just spammed his light/medium kick over and over again. It was a light kick similar to a light punch jab. I think the move was pull back + kick button. Didnt do a ton of damage, but it had decent range and connected effectively working wonders. I googled Jacky gameplay, and yes. His fight layout was Lau first, Sarah second etc... That's where I got it from as I used Jacky most of the time.

Yup found it. 29 second mark. Axe kick.

 

[Team Andromeda]

NHL AS Hockey 98 is Powerplay 98. Same game, but Virgin didnt want to release it on Saturn so Sega licensed it and rebranded it as Sega Sports. And besides PS1 also had PP 98 too. So it's not just about quality of games, but how does it compare to Sony sports games. The SI/989 sports games were way better and more of them too. Aside from WS 98, the rest of Saturn Sega Sports NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL games were junk compared to PS1.

Again, if the game is good who cares if it's a reskin job, hell Nintendo did a reskin for Mario 2 on the NES. All of us Brian Lara fans, couldn't give a 'toss' if it was a reskin of an Amiga game. The Saturn had good sports games in most sports from SEGA, bar F1 and NFL IMO F1 was a killer mind

I didn't need google to tell me that, either *rollseyes*

Did it though? That swooping camera has aged horrifically

No game is made with how it will be judged in 30 years' time. Fifa on the 3DO was a massive step up over the 16-bit versions and like a lot of 3DO games, laid the ground work for what 32-bit games would look like on the next gen consoles

And I know you look for any reason to show your love for SONY and The PS1 or PS2, but Goal Storm wasn't a patch on Fifa on the 3DO IMO and let's remember FIFA came out on the 3DO in 94, it played better and was leagues ahead for presentation.

Doctor Hauser doesn't have combat. You could at least have named Alone In The Dark. It was even a console exclusive on 3DO.

I'm almost willing to bet, you never owned a 3DO, much less played Doctor Hauser back then and gone off running to YouTube again.
Anyone who played Doctor Hauser at the time could see where Capcom got some of their idea's from along with AITD, right down the clock ticking.

 

[cireza]

Hiroo Onoda - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

3rd world Sega fans be like:

You can't seriously be talking about 16-bit sales post 1996 sheeeeeeeit, come out of the jungle already brothers!

I am telling you that there are mistakes and inaccuracies in Wikipedia, no need to act like an asshole.

If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion then nothing forces you to post here.

 

[Crayon]

I would also say the opponent AI of Virtua Fighter 2 is absolutely irredeemable garbage in the hall of shame right next to Mortal Kombat 2 (ARC).

Preach. It spoils it as a single-player game. In as much as fighting games from that era could be. A couple other simple modes could have helped a lot, too.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Again, if the game is good who cares if it's a reskin job, hell Nintendo did a reskin for Mario 2 on the NES. All of us Brian Lara fans, couldn't give a 'toss' if it was a reskin of an Amiga game. The Saturn had good sports games in most sports from SEGA, bar F1 and NFL IMO F1 was a killer mind

I didn't need google to tell me that, either *rollseyes*


No game is made with how it will be judged in 30 years' time. Fifa on the 3DO was a massive step up over the 16-bit versions and like a lot of 3DO games, laid the ground work for what 32-bit games would look like on the next gen consoles

And I know you look for any reason to show your love for SONY and The PS1 or PS2, but Goal Storm wasn't a patch on Fifa on the 3DO IMO and let's remember FIFA came out on the 3DO in 94, it played better and was leagues ahead for presentation.


I'm almost willing to bet, you never owned a 3DO, much less played Doctor Hauser back then and gone off running to YouTube again.
Anyone who played Doctor Hauser at the time could see where Capcom got some of their idea's from along with AITD, right down the clock ticking.

I was referring to ISS Pro, not Goal Storm.

For me, every 3D FIFA up until 2003 was straight up garbage. 2003 was where they basically started from scratch attempting to copy ISS/PES control scheme, physics and momentum, the result is a decent game.

I think the only non-Konami football title from the 5th gen that's aged well is This Is Football, though in the first game there doesn't seem to be any way of controlling the height of shots. TIF 2 fixes this though

 

[Madserb2023]

First mistake was to not have a machine that could handle 3D as well as it's competitors, and then to pretend that wasn't the case. They should have adjusted to the reality and made games that suited the hardware like Nintendo does. Could easily have made really good looking 2D Sonic games or something like Streets of Rage. A game like Sonic Mania could exist as is on the Saturn.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

First mistake was to not have a machine that could handle 3D as well as it's competitors, and then to pretend that wasn't the case. They should have adjusted to the reality and made games that suited the hardware like Nintendo does. Could easily have made really good looking 2D Sonic games or something like Streets of Rage. A game like Sonic Mania could exist as is on the Saturn.

2D games flopped across the board after 1995, Donkey Kong Country 2 marking the end of an era.

 

[Madserb2023]

2D games flopped across the board after 1995, Donkey Kong Country 2 marking the end of an era.

You still have games like Castlevania Symphony of the Night selling over a million units by 1997. While true, 2D weren't selling as well anymore, a 2D Sonic game would absolutely outsell a 3D Sonic game that didn't exist. By racking their brains trying to get these popular series into 3D they ended up making nothing.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

You still have games like Castlevania Symphony of the Night selling over a million units by 1997. While true, 2D weren't selling as well anymore, a 2D Sonic game would absolutely outsell a 3D Sonic game that didn't exist. By racking their brains trying to get these popular series into 3D they ended up making nothing.

A full game based on Sonic Jam's Sonic World, while not attaining any critical acclaim would have been commercially successful.

It should have released by Christmas 1996 instead of NiGHTS to go up against Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot, NiGHTS should have been held back until 1998.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

2D games flopped across the board after 1995, Donkey Kong Country 2 marking the end of an era.

mk trilogy sold more on the PS1 than any Sega Saturn game, Rayman, Namco Museum, Arc the Lad. Don't resist, it's not about 2D or 3D, but about games that people want to play.

 

[Team Andromeda]

I was referring to ISS Pro, not Goal Storm.

For me, every 3D FIFA up until 2003 was straight up garbage. 2003 was where they basically started from scratch attempting to copy ISS/PES control scheme, physics and momentum, the result is a decent game.

I think the only non-Konami football title from the 5th gen that's aged well is This Is Football, though in the first game there doesn't seem to be any way of controlling the height of shots. TIF 2 fixes this though

Yes I know , but Goal was Konami 1st try on the 32bit systems and it wasnt a patch on FIFA on the 3DS I didn't get into TIS untill the Christmas my nephew has his PS2 with This is Football 2003 and JT blew me away.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

mk trilogy sold more on the PS1 than any Sega Saturn game, Rayman, Namco Museum, Arc the Lad. Don't resist, it's not about 2D or 3D, but about games that people want to play.

PS1 outsold Saturn by over 11:1, so MK Trilogy outselling every Saturn game is no shock, and that was only 2m.

Rayman was a 1995 game as per DKC2, it was overall the 21st best selling PS1 game at 4m. No other 2D game that generation sold better than, or even close to Rayman.

So basically 4m was the ceiling for 2D games that generation, a far cry from the likes of Mario 64 at 11m, Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy 7 at 10m, GoldenEye and Tekken 3 at 8m.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

First mistake was to not have a machine that could handle 3D as well as it's competitors, and then to pretend that wasn't the case. They should have adjusted to the reality and made games that suited the hardware like Nintendo does. Could easily have made really good looking 2D Sonic games or something like Streets of Rage. A game like Sonic Mania could exist as is on the Saturn.

They need to divide the games better. And cut the number of 3D games in half because each 3D game was free marketing for Sony. They also needed to increase the budget for 2D games, Sega's 2D games were based on outdated gameplay designs. Sega should have accepted the original Saturn with just one SH2 so the temptation to make 3D games would cease to exist.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

PS1 outsold Saturn by over 11:1

wrong, at the end of 1996 PS1 had 10 million units sold worldwide while Saturn had 7.5M however (this was explained in the OP) the PS1 had in that period a dozen games with sales above 1M (including 2D games) while Saturn had 1 single game above 1M. This means that Saturn games are of poor quality. For a 2D game to be successful it needs to sell 300,000 copies, the PS1 has dozens of 2D games in the range of 700,000 copies sold.

Sega Genesis sold 2 million units in 1995, over 1 million in 1996 and half a million in 1997. In the Japanese market, the Super NES sold almost 2 million units in 1995 and half a million units in 1996. Yes, Saturn had 5 million units shipped in that period.

The Saturn with 32-bit 2D hardware would have been better for Sega. Well, they were idiots

 

[RetroGamingUK]

wrong, at the end of 1996 PS1 had 10 million units sold worldwide while Saturn had 7.5M however (this was explained in the OP) the PS1 had in that period a dozen games with sales above 1M (including 2D games) while Saturn had 1 single game above 1M. This means that Saturn games are of poor quality. For a 2D game to be successful it needs to sell 300,000 copies, the PS1 has dozens of 2D games in the range of 700,000 copies sold.

You compared MK Trilogy lifetime sales against all Saturn game lifetime sales to attempt to prove that 2D games were still popular. Do you have any evidence for how that 2m sales of MK Trilogy was distributed? If not then you have to account for the lifespan of PS1.

As for the other 2D games that sold 700,000. Yeah big deal, chicken feed compared to how well 3D games were selling. Sega focusing more on 2D games after 1995 would have just been more detrimental. Only 3 of the top 20 Saturn games in the US were 2D, on a console marketed based on its 2D credentials, and you think the solution is more 2D games?

Capcom for example had to rely on Resident Evil and Dino Crisis games for sales that generation, Street Fighter's popularity fell off a cliff after Tekken came along.

List of best-selling PlayStation video games - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Madserb2023]

PS1 outsold Saturn by over 11:1, so MK Trilogy outselling every Saturn game is no shock, and that was only 2m.

Rayman was a 1995 game as per DKC2, it was overall the 21st best selling PS1 game at 4m. No other 2D game that generation sold better than, or even close to Rayman.

So basically 4m was the ceiling for 2D games that generation, a far cry from the likes of Mario 64 at 11m, Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy 7 at 10m, GoldenEye and Tekken 3 at 8m.

As I stated in my previous comment. We are talking about a situation where Sega produced nothing. Yes, a 2D Sonic 4 would have likely sold only 2 million units but that would be 2 million more than Sonic Extreme.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Ah thanks. So I wasnt imagining it. The only fighting game I've ever played with fixed opponent schedules.

As for AI it was dumb as rocks and also canned. For example, when I used Jacky you could always nail the cpu right away with one of those big roundhouse kicks. It's like the AI always gives you the first strong attack as a gimme. But then, if you try it again, the cpu turned on a separate logic mode and landing it a second time was almost impossible.

But it would never be the reverse, where it was hard to land right away but the second time is easy.

Beating opponents with Jacky was easy too. I never even used his flash kick. I just spammed his light/medium kick over and over again. It was a light kick similar to a light punch jab. I think the move was pull back + kick button. Didnt do a ton of damage, but it had decent range and connected effectively working wonders. I googled Jacky gameplay, and yes. His fight layout was Lau first, Sarah second etc... That's where I got it from as I used Jacky most of the time.

Yup found it. 29 second mark. Axe kick.

Yeah the AI in old VF games could easily be exploited, it's the opposite of Mortal Kombat 2 where the AI will use every trick in the book.

As with MK2 VF2 is much better as a multiplayer game.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

You compared MK Trilogy lifetime sales against all Saturn game lifetime sales to attempt to prove that 2D games were still popular.

It doesn't matter because the bulk of sales occurred close to the game's release in 1996.

As for the other 2D games that sold 700,000. Yeah big deal, chicken feed compared to how well 3D games were selling.

I disagree, 700,000 for a 2D game is a huge number, normally a 2D game from that period paid its production cost with 20,000 copies sold, but relevant 3D games like Crash and Tomb Raider required sales in the region of 100,000 to pay their production and marketing costs, at the time this was a risky investment. but 2D games need to be good, long, and feel like they had intellectual effort put into them like Super Metroid, DKC, and Sonic, not Shinobi Legions.

Sega focusing more on 2D games after 1995 would have just been more detrimental. Only 3 of the top 20 Saturn games in the US were 2D, on a console marketed based on its 2D credentials, and you think the solution is more 2D games?

Yes, let's be realistic, Sega can't make a 3D console more powerful and cheaper than the PS1, so making 3D games was stupid for Sega. They thought "hey 3D is the future, anything 3D will sell." This theory failed, because besides 3D, a game needs to be good too.
"People have eyes, they'll notice," said a Mario 64 producer when asked if they could release Mario 64 unfinished. Then people realized that 3D games on the Saturn were a bad deal (worse graphics, worse games, worse price) and bought PS1s

With these two truths in mind, and the numbers at hand, it's easy to think of a Saturn with 2MB RAM, 2.5MB VRAM, 512KB RAM for sound, single SH2 chip for $299 but with hi res 2d graphics, many games, Sonic, you know, at some point they would go viral. 6 million 16-bit consoles were sold in 1995 and 1996 the PS1 only reached 6 million consoles sold in America in early 1998.

I feel like when you hear "2D" you imagine 16-bit sprite-based games, but the "2D" I'm talking about here is a 2D world made of polygons, or a 2D world made of sprites and the main character made of polygons, like Flashback, like DCK, this technology was underused. You can argue that a game like Tomb Raider makes any 2D game obsolete, but wouldn't a 2D Sonic in 480p be prettier? well we cannot change the past.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Yes, let's be realistic, Sega can't make a 3D console more powerful and cheaper than the PS1, so making 3D games was stupid for Sega. They thought "hey 3D is the future, anything 3D will sell." This theory failed, because besides 3D, a game needs to be good too.
"People have eyes, they'll notice," said a Mario 64 producer when asked if they could release Mario 64 unfinished. Then people realized that 3D games on the Saturn were a bad deal (worse graphics, worse games, worse price) and bought PS1s

With these two truths in mind, and the numbers at hand, it's easy to think of a Saturn with 2MB RAM, 2.5MB VRAM, 512KB RAM for sound, single SH2 chip for $299 but with hi res 2d graphics, many games, Sonic, you know, at some point they would go viral. 6 million 16-bit consoles were sold in 1995 and 1996 the PS1 only reached 6 million consoles sold in America in early 1998.

I feel like when you hear "2D" you imagine 16-bit sprite-based games, but the "2D" I'm talking about here is a 2D world made of polygons, or a 2D world made of sprites and the main character made of polygons, like Flashback, like DCK, this technology was underused. You can argue that a game like Tomb Raider makes any 2D game obsolete, but wouldn't a 2D Sonic in 480p be prettier? well we cannot change the past.

You're completely lost here.

We are talking about making the Saturn more successful aren't we, in an age where most people wanted more 3D games and less 2D (clearly evident based on sales).

A lot of Saturn's failure is down to the perception that it could barely do 3D at all (as per reactions to VF1 and Daytona).

The solution is to prioritise dev tools more, SegaGraphicsLibrary needed to come out in 1994, not late 1995.

I wouldn't result in PS1 level performance for full 3D games, but you avoid early games like Virtua Fighter, Daytona and Hi-Octane running/looking like shit.

 

[Celine]

Big or small is not that important here, the important thing is to be able to launch games capable of selling millions, in the first year of the PS1 there are 8 games that surpassed 1 million copies, N64 had 7 games that surpassed 1 million copies but Saturn only had 1 or 2 games that managed to surpass 1 million copies sold in the first year . Whether it's Sega or the Xbox division, if the games don't sell there is no way to participate in this sector. you know that in this industry, you invest first to get a return later, if sales do not occur this becomes a consolidated loss, repeat this in dozens of games and it's game over.

Both Sony and Microsoft definitely leveraged their "big corp" size against pure videgame companies that manufactured consoles like Nintendo and Sega.
Of course if Sega could muster a slew of exclusive first-party games so desirable by the mass market that Sega consoles would fly off the shelf then they would still be in the business but then again neither Sony nor Microsoft was so stupid to shift the competition strictly on what platform owner produced the most desirable first-party games.
Sony and later Microsoft wisely adopted a third-party driven business model and bet their console would be the platform that attracted the highest third-party support and that with their size difference they could squeeze the smaller pure videogame companies out of the market.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Both Sony and Microsoft definitely leveraged their "big corp" size against pure videgame companies that manufactured consoles like Nintendo and Sega.
Of course if Sega could muster a slew of exclusive first-party games so desirable by the mass market that Sega consoles would fly off the shelf then they would still be in the business but then again neither Sony nor Microsoft was so stupid to shift the competition strictly on what platform owner produced the most desirable first-party games.
Sony and later Microsoft wisely adopted a third-party driven business model and bet their console would be the platform that attracted the highest third-party support and that with their size difference they could squeeze the smaller pure videogame companies out of the market.

Sega and Nintendo, then and now, have always followed the philosophy of "our games first." Third parties are seen as a necessary evil.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Yeah the AI in old VF games could easily be exploited, it's the opposite of Mortal Kombat 2 where the AI will use every trick in the book.

As with MK2 VF2 is much better as a multiplayer game.

Arcade MK2 has the double backwards jump exploit that the AI always falls for as I recall.