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[StreetsofBeige]

I agree that the arcade ladders in VF1 and 2 lack variation of most fighting games. I would also say the opponent AI of Virtua Fighter 2 is absolutely irredeemable garbage in the hall of shame right next to Mortal Kombat 2 (ARC). The first Virtua Fighter is a better prototype for its own franchise than the first two Tekkens are. Virtua Fighter 3 and Fighters Megamix are up there with Tekken 3 and Dead or Alive 2 as far as the quality of 3D fighting. They also have relatively large move lists.

Ah thanks. So I wasnt imagining it. The only fighting game I've ever played with fixed opponent schedules.

As for AI it was dumb as rocks and also canned. For example, when I used Jacky you could always nail the cpu right away with one of those big roundhouse kicks. It's like the AI always gives you the first strong attack as a gimme. But then, if you try it again, the cpu turned on a separate logic mode and landing it a second time was almost impossible.

But it would never be the reverse, where it was hard to land right away but the second time is easy.

Beating opponents with Jacky was easy too. I never even used his flash kick. I just spammed his light/medium kick over and over again. It was a light kick similar to a light punch jab. I think the move was pull back + kick button. Didnt do a ton of damage, but it had decent range and connected effectively working wonders. I googled Jacky gameplay, and yes. His fight layout was Lau first, Sarah second etc... That's where I got it from as I used Jacky most of the time.

Yup found it. 29 second mark. Axe kick.

 

[Team Andromeda]

NHL AS Hockey 98 is Powerplay 98. Same game, but Virgin didnt want to release it on Saturn so Sega licensed it and rebranded it as Sega Sports. And besides PS1 also had PP 98 too. So it's not just about quality of games, but how does it compare to Sony sports games. The SI/989 sports games were way better and more of them too. Aside from WS 98, the rest of Saturn Sega Sports NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL games were junk compared to PS1.

Again, if the game is good who cares if it's a reskin job, hell Nintendo did a reskin for Mario 2 on the NES. All of us Brian Lara fans, couldn't give a 'toss' if it was a reskin of an Amiga game. The Saturn had good sports games in most sports from SEGA, bar F1 and NFL IMO F1 was a killer mind

I didn't need google to tell me that, either *rollseyes*

Did it though? That swooping camera has aged horrifically

No game is made with how it will be judged in 30 years' time. Fifa on the 3DO was a massive step up over the 16-bit versions and like a lot of 3DO games, laid the ground work for what 32-bit games would look like on the next gen consoles

And I know you look for any reason to show your love for SONY and The PS1 or PS2, but Goal Storm wasn't a patch on Fifa on the 3DO IMO and let's remember FIFA came out on the 3DO in 94, it played better and was leagues ahead for presentation.

Doctor Hauser doesn't have combat. You could at least have named Alone In The Dark. It was even a console exclusive on 3DO.

I'm almost willing to bet, you never owned a 3DO, much less played Doctor Hauser back then and gone off running to YouTube again.
Anyone who played Doctor Hauser at the time could see where Capcom got some of their idea's from along with AITD, right down the clock ticking.

 

[cireza]

Hiroo Onoda - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

3rd world Sega fans be like:

You can't seriously be talking about 16-bit sales post 1996 sheeeeeeeit, come out of the jungle already brothers!

I am telling you that there are mistakes and inaccuracies in Wikipedia, no need to act like an asshole.

If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion then nothing forces you to post here.

 

[Crayon]

I would also say the opponent AI of Virtua Fighter 2 is absolutely irredeemable garbage in the hall of shame right next to Mortal Kombat 2 (ARC).

Preach. It spoils it as a single-player game. In as much as fighting games from that era could be. A couple other simple modes could have helped a lot, too.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Again, if the game is good who cares if it's a reskin job, hell Nintendo did a reskin for Mario 2 on the NES. All of us Brian Lara fans, couldn't give a 'toss' if it was a reskin of an Amiga game. The Saturn had good sports games in most sports from SEGA, bar F1 and NFL IMO F1 was a killer mind

I didn't need google to tell me that, either *rollseyes*


No game is made with how it will be judged in 30 years' time. Fifa on the 3DO was a massive step up over the 16-bit versions and like a lot of 3DO games, laid the ground work for what 32-bit games would look like on the next gen consoles

And I know you look for any reason to show your love for SONY and The PS1 or PS2, but Goal Storm wasn't a patch on Fifa on the 3DO IMO and let's remember FIFA came out on the 3DO in 94, it played better and was leagues ahead for presentation.


I'm almost willing to bet, you never owned a 3DO, much less played Doctor Hauser back then and gone off running to YouTube again.
Anyone who played Doctor Hauser at the time could see where Capcom got some of their idea's from along with AITD, right down the clock ticking.

I was referring to ISS Pro, not Goal Storm.

For me, every 3D FIFA up until 2003 was straight up garbage. 2003 was where they basically started from scratch attempting to copy ISS/PES control scheme, physics and momentum, the result is a decent game.

I think the only non-Konami football title from the 5th gen that's aged well is This Is Football, though in the first game there doesn't seem to be any way of controlling the height of shots. TIF 2 fixes this though

 

[Madserb2023]

First mistake was to not have a machine that could handle 3D as well as it's competitors, and then to pretend that wasn't the case. They should have adjusted to the reality and made games that suited the hardware like Nintendo does. Could easily have made really good looking 2D Sonic games or something like Streets of Rage. A game like Sonic Mania could exist as is on the Saturn.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

First mistake was to not have a machine that could handle 3D as well as it's competitors, and then to pretend that wasn't the case. They should have adjusted to the reality and made games that suited the hardware like Nintendo does. Could easily have made really good looking 2D Sonic games or something like Streets of Rage. A game like Sonic Mania could exist as is on the Saturn.

2D games flopped across the board after 1995, Donkey Kong Country 2 marking the end of an era.

 

[Madserb2023]

2D games flopped across the board after 1995, Donkey Kong Country 2 marking the end of an era.

You still have games like Castlevania Symphony of the Night selling over a million units by 1997. While true, 2D weren't selling as well anymore, a 2D Sonic game would absolutely outsell a 3D Sonic game that didn't exist. By racking their brains trying to get these popular series into 3D they ended up making nothing.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

You still have games like Castlevania Symphony of the Night selling over a million units by 1997. While true, 2D weren't selling as well anymore, a 2D Sonic game would absolutely outsell a 3D Sonic game that didn't exist. By racking their brains trying to get these popular series into 3D they ended up making nothing.

A full game based on Sonic Jam's Sonic World, while not attaining any critical acclaim would have been commercially successful.

It should have released by Christmas 1996 instead of NiGHTS to go up against Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot, NiGHTS should have been held back until 1998.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

2D games flopped across the board after 1995, Donkey Kong Country 2 marking the end of an era.

mk trilogy sold more on the PS1 than any Sega Saturn game, Rayman, Namco Museum, Arc the Lad. Don't resist, it's not about 2D or 3D, but about games that people want to play.

 

[Team Andromeda]

I was referring to ISS Pro, not Goal Storm.

For me, every 3D FIFA up until 2003 was straight up garbage. 2003 was where they basically started from scratch attempting to copy ISS/PES control scheme, physics and momentum, the result is a decent game.

I think the only non-Konami football title from the 5th gen that's aged well is This Is Football, though in the first game there doesn't seem to be any way of controlling the height of shots. TIF 2 fixes this though

Yes I know , but Goal was Konami 1st try on the 32bit systems and it wasnt a patch on FIFA on the 3DS I didn't get into TIS untill the Christmas my nephew has his PS2 with This is Football 2003 and JT blew me away.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

mk trilogy sold more on the PS1 than any Sega Saturn game, Rayman, Namco Museum, Arc the Lad. Don't resist, it's not about 2D or 3D, but about games that people want to play.

PS1 outsold Saturn by over 11:1, so MK Trilogy outselling every Saturn game is no shock, and that was only 2m.

Rayman was a 1995 game as per DKC2, it was overall the 21st best selling PS1 game at 4m. No other 2D game that generation sold better than, or even close to Rayman.

So basically 4m was the ceiling for 2D games that generation, a far cry from the likes of Mario 64 at 11m, Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy 7 at 10m, GoldenEye and Tekken 3 at 8m.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

First mistake was to not have a machine that could handle 3D as well as it's competitors, and then to pretend that wasn't the case. They should have adjusted to the reality and made games that suited the hardware like Nintendo does. Could easily have made really good looking 2D Sonic games or something like Streets of Rage. A game like Sonic Mania could exist as is on the Saturn.

They need to divide the games better. And cut the number of 3D games in half because each 3D game was free marketing for Sony. They also needed to increase the budget for 2D games, Sega's 2D games were based on outdated gameplay designs. Sega should have accepted the original Saturn with just one SH2 so the temptation to make 3D games would cease to exist.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

PS1 outsold Saturn by over 11:1

wrong, at the end of 1996 PS1 had 10 million units sold worldwide while Saturn had 7.5M however (this was explained in the OP) the PS1 had in that period a dozen games with sales above 1M (including 2D games) while Saturn had 1 single game above 1M. This means that Saturn games are of poor quality. For a 2D game to be successful it needs to sell 300,000 copies, the PS1 has dozens of 2D games in the range of 700,000 copies sold.

Sega Genesis sold 2 million units in 1995, over 1 million in 1996 and half a million in 1997. In the Japanese market, the Super NES sold almost 2 million units in 1995 and half a million units in 1996. Yes, Saturn had 5 million units shipped in that period.

The Saturn with 32-bit 2D hardware would have been better for Sega. Well, they were idiots

 

[RetroGamingUK]

wrong, at the end of 1996 PS1 had 10 million units sold worldwide while Saturn had 7.5M however (this was explained in the OP) the PS1 had in that period a dozen games with sales above 1M (including 2D games) while Saturn had 1 single game above 1M. This means that Saturn games are of poor quality. For a 2D game to be successful it needs to sell 300,000 copies, the PS1 has dozens of 2D games in the range of 700,000 copies sold.

You compared MK Trilogy lifetime sales against all Saturn game lifetime sales to attempt to prove that 2D games were still popular. Do you have any evidence for how that 2m sales of MK Trilogy was distributed? If not then you have to account for the lifespan of PS1.

As for the other 2D games that sold 700,000. Yeah big deal, chicken feed compared to how well 3D games were selling. Sega focusing more on 2D games after 1995 would have just been more detrimental. Only 3 of the top 20 Saturn games in the US were 2D, on a console marketed based on its 2D credentials, and you think the solution is more 2D games?

Capcom for example had to rely on Resident Evil and Dino Crisis games for sales that generation, Street Fighter's popularity fell off a cliff after Tekken came along.

List of best-selling PlayStation video games - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Madserb2023]

PS1 outsold Saturn by over 11:1, so MK Trilogy outselling every Saturn game is no shock, and that was only 2m.

Rayman was a 1995 game as per DKC2, it was overall the 21st best selling PS1 game at 4m. No other 2D game that generation sold better than, or even close to Rayman.

So basically 4m was the ceiling for 2D games that generation, a far cry from the likes of Mario 64 at 11m, Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy 7 at 10m, GoldenEye and Tekken 3 at 8m.

As I stated in my previous comment. We are talking about a situation where Sega produced nothing. Yes, a 2D Sonic 4 would have likely sold only 2 million units but that would be 2 million more than Sonic Extreme.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Ah thanks. So I wasnt imagining it. The only fighting game I've ever played with fixed opponent schedules.

As for AI it was dumb as rocks and also canned. For example, when I used Jacky you could always nail the cpu right away with one of those big roundhouse kicks. It's like the AI always gives you the first strong attack as a gimme. But then, if you try it again, the cpu turned on a separate logic mode and landing it a second time was almost impossible.

But it would never be the reverse, where it was hard to land right away but the second time is easy.

Beating opponents with Jacky was easy too. I never even used his flash kick. I just spammed his light/medium kick over and over again. It was a light kick similar to a light punch jab. I think the move was pull back + kick button. Didnt do a ton of damage, but it had decent range and connected effectively working wonders. I googled Jacky gameplay, and yes. His fight layout was Lau first, Sarah second etc... That's where I got it from as I used Jacky most of the time.

Yup found it. 29 second mark. Axe kick.

Yeah the AI in old VF games could easily be exploited, it's the opposite of Mortal Kombat 2 where the AI will use every trick in the book.

As with MK2 VF2 is much better as a multiplayer game.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

You compared MK Trilogy lifetime sales against all Saturn game lifetime sales to attempt to prove that 2D games were still popular.

It doesn't matter because the bulk of sales occurred close to the game's release in 1996.

As for the other 2D games that sold 700,000. Yeah big deal, chicken feed compared to how well 3D games were selling.

I disagree, 700,000 for a 2D game is a huge number, normally a 2D game from that period paid its production cost with 20,000 copies sold, but relevant 3D games like Crash and Tomb Raider required sales in the region of 100,000 to pay their production and marketing costs, at the time this was a risky investment. but 2D games need to be good, long, and feel like they had intellectual effort put into them like Super Metroid, DKC, and Sonic, not Shinobi Legions.

Sega focusing more on 2D games after 1995 would have just been more detrimental. Only 3 of the top 20 Saturn games in the US were 2D, on a console marketed based on its 2D credentials, and you think the solution is more 2D games?

Yes, let's be realistic, Sega can't make a 3D console more powerful and cheaper than the PS1, so making 3D games was stupid for Sega. They thought "hey 3D is the future, anything 3D will sell." This theory failed, because besides 3D, a game needs to be good too.
"People have eyes, they'll notice," said a Mario 64 producer when asked if they could release Mario 64 unfinished. Then people realized that 3D games on the Saturn were a bad deal (worse graphics, worse games, worse price) and bought PS1s

With these two truths in mind, and the numbers at hand, it's easy to think of a Saturn with 2MB RAM, 2.5MB VRAM, 512KB RAM for sound, single SH2 chip for $299 but with hi res 2d graphics, many games, Sonic, you know, at some point they would go viral. 6 million 16-bit consoles were sold in 1995 and 1996 the PS1 only reached 6 million consoles sold in America in early 1998.

I feel like when you hear "2D" you imagine 16-bit sprite-based games, but the "2D" I'm talking about here is a 2D world made of polygons, or a 2D world made of sprites and the main character made of polygons, like Flashback, like DCK, this technology was underused. You can argue that a game like Tomb Raider makes any 2D game obsolete, but wouldn't a 2D Sonic in 480p be prettier? well we cannot change the past.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Yes, let's be realistic, Sega can't make a 3D console more powerful and cheaper than the PS1, so making 3D games was stupid for Sega. They thought "hey 3D is the future, anything 3D will sell." This theory failed, because besides 3D, a game needs to be good too.
"People have eyes, they'll notice," said a Mario 64 producer when asked if they could release Mario 64 unfinished. Then people realized that 3D games on the Saturn were a bad deal (worse graphics, worse games, worse price) and bought PS1s

With these two truths in mind, and the numbers at hand, it's easy to think of a Saturn with 2MB RAM, 2.5MB VRAM, 512KB RAM for sound, single SH2 chip for $299 but with hi res 2d graphics, many games, Sonic, you know, at some point they would go viral. 6 million 16-bit consoles were sold in 1995 and 1996 the PS1 only reached 6 million consoles sold in America in early 1998.

I feel like when you hear "2D" you imagine 16-bit sprite-based games, but the "2D" I'm talking about here is a 2D world made of polygons, or a 2D world made of sprites and the main character made of polygons, like Flashback, like DCK, this technology was underused. You can argue that a game like Tomb Raider makes any 2D game obsolete, but wouldn't a 2D Sonic in 480p be prettier? well we cannot change the past.

You're completely lost here.

We are talking about making the Saturn more successful aren't we, in an age where most people wanted more 3D games and less 2D (clearly evident based on sales).

A lot of Saturn's failure is down to the perception that it could barely do 3D at all (as per reactions to VF1 and Daytona).

The solution is to prioritise dev tools more, SegaGraphicsLibrary needed to come out in 1994, not late 1995.

I wouldn't result in PS1 level performance for full 3D games, but you avoid early games like Virtua Fighter, Daytona and Hi-Octane running/looking like shit.

 

[Celine]

Big or small is not that important here, the important thing is to be able to launch games capable of selling millions, in the first year of the PS1 there are 8 games that surpassed 1 million copies, N64 had 7 games that surpassed 1 million copies but Saturn only had 1 or 2 games that managed to surpass 1 million copies sold in the first year . Whether it's Sega or the Xbox division, if the games don't sell there is no way to participate in this sector. you know that in this industry, you invest first to get a return later, if sales do not occur this becomes a consolidated loss, repeat this in dozens of games and it's game over.

Both Sony and Microsoft definitely leveraged their "big corp" size against pure videgame companies that manufactured consoles like Nintendo and Sega.
Of course if Sega could muster a slew of exclusive first-party games so desirable by the mass market that Sega consoles would fly off the shelf then they would still be in the business but then again neither Sony nor Microsoft was so stupid to shift the competition strictly on what platform owner produced the most desirable first-party games.
Sony and later Microsoft wisely adopted a third-party driven business model and bet their console would be the platform that attracted the highest third-party support and that with their size difference they could squeeze the smaller pure videogame companies out of the market.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Both Sony and Microsoft definitely leveraged their "big corp" size against pure videgame companies that manufactured consoles like Nintendo and Sega.
Of course if Sega could muster a slew of exclusive first-party games so desirable by the mass market that Sega consoles would fly off the shelf then they would still be in the business but then again neither Sony nor Microsoft was so stupid to shift the competition strictly on what platform owner produced the most desirable first-party games.
Sony and later Microsoft wisely adopted a third-party driven business model and bet their console would be the platform that attracted the highest third-party support and that with their size difference they could squeeze the smaller pure videogame companies out of the market.

Sega and Nintendo, then and now, have always followed the philosophy of "our games first." Third parties are seen as a necessary evil.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Yeah the AI in old VF games could easily be exploited, it's the opposite of Mortal Kombat 2 where the AI will use every trick in the book.

As with MK2 VF2 is much better as a multiplayer game.

Arcade MK2 has the double backwards jump exploit that the AI always falls for as I recall.

 

[Crayon]

I've wracked my brain about how to do a 3d sonic with the technology of the saturn, and only having sm64 and nights to draw inspiration from. My conclusion is that nights actually has the dna for the sonic game that could have been to sm64 what sonic was to smw. That is, not quite as good but distinct and making an impact. Basically, staying out of the shadow of mario.

 

[ShadowkillXNA]

If you wanted a Saturn over a PS1 your head was in Uranus.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I've wracked my brain about how to do a 3d sonic with the technology of the saturn, and only having sm64 and nights to draw inspiration from. My conclusion is that nights actually has the dna for the sonic game that could have been to sm64 what sonic was to smw.

your Sonic game is something like the Pandemonium! game, right?

 

[Ozzie666]

your Sonic game is something like the Pandemonium! game, right?

Unfortunately for Sega, Naughty Dog's Sonic ass game was pretty much the right direction to go. for a Sonic game. The Saturn could have done something similar, just not as well. Sonic-R and Sonic Jam show some glimpses what could have been. Decent programmer, who knows.

I do wonder if a down scaled Sonic Adventure would have worked. PS1 had plenty of 2.5D games like Tomba, Kolona etc. Saturn able to do those?

I fear in this case, it was better not to release a Sonic 3D game against Mario or Crash, unless it was in 1995 way before either of those. Or it gets embarrassed.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I do wonder if a down scaled Sonic Adventure would have worked.

No, in short, the machine doesn't support 3D worlds suitable for third-person games; it lacks juice. Using VDP2 is possible, but its usability is artistically limited.

PS1 had plenty of 2.5D games like Tomba, Kolona etc. Saturn able to do those?

Yes, but understand that all the elements that make a polygon-based game look good (textures, transparency, frame rate, lighting effects, shadows) are just worse on the Saturn. This means that even in Tomba and especially in Klonoa, some of these elements will be degraded compared to the PS1 version. Ideally, the Saturn should run 2.5D games made based on its architecture, Klonoa is basically a 3D game with a fixed camera.

I fear in this case, it was better not to release a Sonic 3D game against Mario or Crash, unless it was in 1995 way before either of those. Or it gets embarrassed.

I can see a Sonic game here


I'm sure it would be excellent for a western release in 1995, mario 64 and crash would seem more advanced, and they are, but the impact would be less than it was.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I've been taking a look at Sega.

The PC Engine launched in 1987, promising power, and it delivered. Six games were released in '87 and 19 in '88, selling 1.5 million units.
Sega launched the Mega Drive in 1988 with just four games. By the time '89 rolled around, many games were made by Sega, but the PC Engine had over 60 games, some even more advanced than the Mega Drive's. Sega doesn't know how to launch a console that's why they came in third place in Japan even though they had a superior console. Nintendo has already given the hint: release a good AAA game from its most popular IP. Imagine the SNES launching in Japan with games of the same caliber as the PC Engine instead of something almost 3D like Pilotwings or legendary like SMW. Imagine the N64 being released with Yoshi Island and Killer Instinct Gold, SM64 coming out only in 1997... The truth is that common games, which use 30% of the hardware, nobody cares, people always want evolution, that's why Wave Race stood out and Killer Instinct Gold didn't, because no water was like Wave Race's but Killer Instinct Gold was a fighting game less impressive than VF2. When launching a console, one or more AAA games are needed on day one.

 

[Celine]

Sega and Nintendo, then and now, have always followed the philosophy of "our games first." Third parties are seen as a necessary evil.

Absolutely.
Atari, Sega and Nintendo used a first-party driven approach (Nintendo still is) because they were/are game companies at heart.
Sony and Microsoft were/are big corporations that put their "weight" behind the goal to foster a successful game platform aggregating the content from existing independent game software providers.

 

[Celine]

Sega Saturn sales were weak from the get go in the U.S. and never really experienced a true change of gear.
The situation was so bad that Nintendo 64 overtook the Saturn cumulative sales in the first one year and half during the launch period (in one month and half).
By the end of 1996 any hope Saturn could rebound in America was completely shattered.
Meanwhile N64 record-setting run-up to PS1 reached a conclusion with the decisive battle through holiday 1997, N64 would settle for a strong second place while PS1 became the new king of the hill.

France was one of the places where I read from Nick Alexander Nintendo did better, even in the heyday of the Mega Drive, while SEGA did so much better in Spain and Germany In the UK it was a total non contest SEGA just killed Nintendo at every level for sales and PR.

Based on reseaches from Gfk and Nielsen in 1994 SNES had the upper hand on MD in France and Germany whereas MD had the upper hand in UK and Spain.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Sega Saturn sales were weak from the get go in the U.S. and never really experienced a true change of gear.
The situation was so bad that Nintendo 64 overtook the Saturn cumulative sales in the first one year and half during the launch period (in one month and half).
By the end of 1996 any hope Saturn could rebound in America was completely shattered.
Meanwhile N64 record-setting run-up to PS1 reached a conclusion with the decisive battle through holiday 1997, N64 would settle for a strong second place while PS1 became the new king of the hill.



Based on reseaches from Gfk and Nielsen in 1994 SNES had the upper hand on MD in France and Germany whereas MD had the upper hand in UK and Spain.

I seem to remember SEGA beating Nintendo in Germany too, but it was in France where SEGA Europe couldn't score a win

I think too much is made of the USA too, from what I remember the Mega Drive only drew level with Nintendo for market share, where as SEGA Europe destroyed Nintendo for market share in Europe, for both the Master System and Mega Drive


No samurai Tom Kalinske needed, just an overlooked and unsung SEGA hero called Nick Alexander.

 

[nkarafo]

your Sonic game is something like the Pandemonium! game, right?

Ι always thought this "2.5D" engine would be the best for a Saturn Sonic game. The gameplay, speed and physics would be similar to the 2D games without the devs having to figure out how to make Sonic run as fast in a free-roam 3D environment without messing the controls and camera. And at the same time you get the 3D polygonal graphics, the changing view angles and all the good stuff 3D visuals provide. And also, because the camera is always fixed, it would be easier to optimize the visuals and performance for every scene.

It's either that or Sonic Mania being a Saturn game.

 

[Celine]

I think too much is made of the USA too, from what I remember the Mega Drive only drew level with Nintendo for market share, where as SEGA Europe destroyed Nintendo for market share in Europe, for both the Master System and Mega Drive

Based on NPD/Circana SNES sold 20M in U.S. whereas Genesis 18.5M.
In "Europe" MD outsold SNES but "Europe" as a whole didn't exist, different european markets could have different trends.
"Europe" as a whole was definitely a much smaller console market than U.S. and Japan in those days.

 

[Celine]

Tell me, why and how did Nintendo 64 manage to survive the PS1? no pokemon, question is about the N64

Nintendo was outprofiting Sony PlayStation division during that era (and afterward).
GB/C and Pokemon were definitely profitable for Nintendo but the key point is that N64 was also profitable.
The are obvious difference between Nintendo and Sega:

1) Nintendo's decision making always focused on minimizing the loss from the hardware meanwhile Sega was losing a lot of money from hardware.

Hideki Sato:

"So we released the Saturn in 1994, and as I said before, there were two SH-2s. In addition, memory was expensive at this time, and we were using a large amount, so costs were very high. For each Saturn sold, we lost about 10,000 yen ($100). That's how the hardware business works. But the goal was to recoup the losses from software royalties. If there are lots of third parties, lots of games sold, and we get 2,000 yen for each, it's possible. However, if software sales are weak, and for each console sold, we're ultimately losing 5,000 – 6,000 yen, what's going to happen from the business perspective? We're going to stop selling consoles. This later became a huge problem.

"Every month, or even every week in Sega's case, we had meetings to examine the current situation. Each department would report on where it stood in relation to its goals. So, imagine if the sales goal for the end-of-year sales war is, say, 3 billion yen, and the profit goal is 300 million yen—but wait, the profit is in the red. That profit is a very important factor, so what does the business side do? They decide that it's not necessary to have sales of 3 billion yen. Instead, 2 billion yen will do. In other words, they stop selling 1 billion yen's worth of hardware. That way, if each unit sold is losing 5,000 yen, and we extend that to 20,000 units, that's 100 million yen lost. By stopping the sales of 20,000 units, in a way that becomes 100 million yen in profit. So they slammed on the brakes in terms of unit distribution. Even though there were people that wanted to buy the console, Sega didn't want to sell it, because the more they sold the more they went into the red.

"From the perspective of the third parties, they saw that Sega was curbing the sales of the Saturn. The more consoles there were, the more games would be sold. But if console sales were being limited, then this created a serious problem. As they say, poverty dulls the wit. This led to a negative feedback loop."

2) Ultimately Nintendo first-party software was much stronger than Sega's (own software sales carry the higher profit margin compared to the royalties collected from third-parties).
On N64 first-party software sales were in actuality higher than on SNES.
On Sega Saturn the best selling first-party game sold around 2M (Virtua Fighter 2) and the number of first-party million seller was small.
On N64 there are dozens of first-party games that sold more than 1 million units.
Nintendo first-party sales on N64 (over 120M) was much higher than the totality of Sega Saturn software sales (as March 1998 Saturn cumulative softare sales worldwide: 80M).

3) Sega to launch the various consoles had to loan money from banks and then repay the debt with the added interests. For instance to launch the Dreamcast Sega loaned more than $1 billion.
Instead Nintendo self-finance the activities required to launch and market their consoles because Nintendo have a big heap of cash on hand.
The latter was accumulated by posting high profits year after year since entering the videogame business with a focus on producing enticing products while refraining from loss leading tactics (or at least to severe loss leading tactis).
Sega consumer division (consoles) had a continous streak of (operating) losses since the dusk of the Mega Drive era.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Ι always thought this "2.5D" engine would be the best for a Saturn Sonic game. The gameplay, speed and physics would be similar to the 2D games without the devs having to figure out how to make Sonic run as fast in a free-roam 3D environment without messing the controls and camera. And at the same time you get the 3D polygonal graphics, the changing view angles and all the good stuff 3D visuals provide. And also, because the camera is always fixed, it would be easier to optimize the visuals and performance for every scene.

After Mario 64 it would have to be into screen 3D.

The 3D world in Sonic Jam showed what the team was up too and how Sonic Adv would have looked and run. It's such a shame we never got the see it and it was moved up to Dreamcast. I would guess it would have been the best looking 3D Saturn game ever made IMO

Based on NPD/Circana SNES sold 20M in U.S. whereas Genesis 18.5M.
In "Europe" MD outsold SNES but "Europe" as a whole didn't exist, different european markets could have different trends.
"Europe" as a whole was definitely a much smaller console market than U.S. and Japan in those days.

Europe still has different trends. The point was SEGA totally out did Nintendo for sales in the 8-bit and 16-bit. For which Nick Alexander gets no credit and people instead talk about that overrated mighty mouth Tom...

 

[RetroAV]

I seem to remember SEGA beating Nintendo in Germany too, but it was in France where SEGA Europe couldn't score a win

I think too much is made of the USA too, from what I remember the Mega Drive only drew level with Nintendo for market share, where as SEGA Europe destroyed Nintendo for market share in Europe, for both the Master System and Mega Drive


No samurai Tom Kalinske needed, just an overlooked and unsung SEGA hero called Nick Alexander.

Let's stop the revisionism. Sega of Europe didn't "crush" Nintendo the way Sega of America did — Nintendo basically never showed up to the fight in Europe. Meanwhile, in the U.S., Nintendo had over 90% market share, locked-down third-party deals, and a retail stranglehold. That's the market where Tom Kalinske and his team pulled off the real miracle.

So yeah, it's kind of a joke to compare the two. Sega of America had to go toe-to-toe with a giant at its absolute peak, while Sega of Europe mostly benefitted from Nintendo's absence. Without Kalinske and the U.S. breakthrough, Sega never would've built the global momentum or brand power that helped it thrive overseas in the first place.

Credit where it's due — Sega of Europe did fine in its lane. But let's not pretend it was the same fight. The real miracle happened in America, against the odds.

 

[nkarafo]

The 3D world in Sonic Jam showed what the team was up

A "proper" Sonic game needs enemies and big, crazy levels with loop-de-loops, slopes, lots of verticality, etc.

The 3D world in Sonic jam is a small, flat hub world where not much is going on. It works as a hub but as a full action level for a platform game? Maybe for something slow paced and boring but not for Sonic.

I don't think any of the 5th gen consoles would be able to do a 3D, free-roaming Sonic justice. In fact, i don't think any free-roaming 3D Sonic game in later systems has ever made Sonic justice, except maybe the Sonic Utopia demo and even that only represents Green Hill. I don't know how it would handle maps that need more verticality like the tech/factory/pinball maps.

The Pandemonium engine could at least allow for some complex and crazy designs while also being 3D-ish on a 5th gen console.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

The are obvious difference between Nintendo and Sega:

1) Nintendo's decision making always focused on minimizing the loss from the hardware meanwhile Sega was losing a lot of money from hardware.

especially in arcades, Sega made very expensive systems and operators couldn't buy them because they were afraid of not getting their money back.

2) Ultimately Nintendo first-party software was much stronger than Sega's (own software sales carry the higher profit margin compared to the royalties collected from third-parties).
On N64 first-party software sales were in actuality higher than on SNES.
On Sega Saturn the best selling first-party game sold around 2M (Virtua Fighter 2) and the number of first-party million seller was small.
On N64 there are dozens of first-party games that sold more than 1 million units.

Nintendo's first parties games broke boundaries (sm64, wave race 64, golden eye) while Sega games were regular low-budget games. many N64s were sold because of Mario 64 , because is Mario a famous game ? No, but because Mario 64 has quality, not just fame.
Sega has always made this mistake, when launching a console you need a cutting-edge game that combines graphics and gameplay, like Gears of War did, like Cod 2 did, like Wave Race did.

3) Sega to launch the various consoles had to loan money from banks and then repay the debt with the added interests. For instance to launch the Dreamcast Sega loaned more than $1 billion.
Instead Nintendo self-finance the activities required to launch and market their consoles because Nintendo have a big heap of cash on hand.

Sega made this decision because they were confident in the secret games they had planned (Crazy Taxi, NFL 2k, PSO and Sonic Adventure).

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Ι always thought this "2.5D" engine would be the best for a Saturn Sonic game. The gameplay, speed and physics would be similar to the 2D games without the devs having to figure out how to make Sonic run as fast in a free-roam 3D environment without messing the controls and camera.

Sega's devs were stupid, Pandemonium engine with Sonic's theme, job done.
8 months before Mario 64.

But I feel like we're overestimating Sega and Sony both had limited planning, Sega basically handed the hardware to the devs and said, "make a game." Nec-Hudson were even more foolish, the PC-FX's 3D gpu was not finished in time, so Hudson engineers used two 4th gen cpus as 2d-GPU for their 32-bit system, so they lied that it was the best 2D console on the market, but the original plan was 3D, the games were made as the need arose, all these companies were playing dice. PS1 at least had the advantage in ease of programming.

Nintendo was the only one with a sense of planning and strategy; each game had a purpose. On the SNES, Pilotwings perfectly mimics a 3D game, Golden Eye 007 does things no FPS on the PS1 or Saturn does. It's not about the power of the N64 or SNES, but about developers creating a product within a plan aimed at expanding the base and motivating consumers to upgrade. When the Sega Genesis was released, its games were inferior to Turbografx-16 games like Legendary Axe, picture that, a powerful console like the Sega Genesis without a single showcase game, something like Sonic should have been a day one game not a 1991 game, even with these errors they were lucky that Nec-Hudson made more mistakes.

It's either that or Sonic Mania being a Saturn game.

I would do both, Sonic-Pandemonium for September 1995 and Sonic Mania for September 1996. Even though Sonic Mania was 2D, it would be strategic. Trying to do anything 3D would mean making ads for free for the N64 and PS1.

 

[nkarafo]

Trying to do anything 3D would mean making ads for free for the N64 and PS1.

Spoiler

 

[RetroAV]

Nintendo's first parties games broke boundaries (sm64, wave race 64, golden eye) while Sega games were regular low-budget games. many N64s were sold because of Mario 64 , because is Mario a famous game ? No, but because Mario 64 has quality, not just fame.
Sega has always made this mistake, when launching a console you need a cutting-edge game that combines graphics and gameplay, like Gears of War did, like Cod 2 did, like Wave Race did.

Yeah, Mario 64 broke boundaries — no argument there. But "breaking boundaries" doesn't automatically mean better. Sega's design philosophy was about mechanical depth and player control — games that felt fast, fluid, and satisfying to master. Where Nintendo focused on playfulness and precision, Sega focused on energy and momentum. Games like Panzer Dragoon Zwei, NiGHTS, and Virtua Fighter 2 pushed gameplay feel and hardware limits in ways that were just as advanced, just aimed at a different audience.

And as for sales — that's never been a fair measure. Nintendo's fanbase is practically generational; parents raise kids on Nintendo the same way people pass down family traditions. Sega fans aren't like that — they don't evangelize the brand to death. So yeah, Nintendo's going to outsell everyone, always. But that doesn't mean Sega's games weren't as good or better. It just means Nintendo's cultural machine was bigger.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Let's stop the revisionism. Sega of Europe didn't "crush" Nintendo the way Sega of America did — Nintendo basically never showed up to the fight in Europe. Meanwhile, in the U.S., Nintendo had over 90% market share, locked-down third-party deals, and a retail stranglehold. That's the market where Tom Kalinske and his team pulled off the real miracle.

So yeah, it's kind of a joke to compare the two. Sega of America had to go toe-to-toe with a giant at its absolute peak, while Sega of Europe mostly benefitted from Nintendo's absence. Without Kalinske and the U.S. breakthrough, Sega never would've built the global momentum or brand power that helped it thrive overseas in the first place.

Credit where it's due — Sega of Europe did fine in its lane. But let's not pretend it was the same fight. The real miracle happened in America, against the odds.

I'm sure it was Japan that Nintendo had 90% Marketshare and hey SEGA Japan was able to crush that with the Saturn, So you can shove Tom's so-called miracle up his ass.
And I'm sorry to break this you.. SEGA Europe was enjoying massive success with the Master System long before bulling shitting Tom came online to SOA.

Sales exploded not thanks to TOM, but Sonic and most people know it.

A "proper" Sonic game needs enemies and big, crazy levels with loop-de-loops, slopes, lots of verticality, etc.

The 3D world in Sonic jam is a small, flat hub world where not much is going on. It works as a hub but as a full action level for a platform game? Maybe for something slow paced and boring but not for Sonic.

I don't think any of the 5th gen consoles would be able to do a 3D, free-roaming Sonic justice. In fact, i don't think any free-roaming 3D Sonic game in later systems has ever made Sonic justice, except maybe the Sonic Utopia demo and even that only represents Green Hill. I don't know how it would handle maps that need more verticality like the tech/factory/pinball maps.

The Pandemonium engine could at least allow for some complex and crazy designs while also being 3D-ish on a 5th gen console.

Sonic would just be built around the hardware, like the Sonic games on the Master System. Sonic Team were at the top of their game and had a great engine on the Saturn and it showed. Yes it would never hold on to a 30FPS update and I'm sure most enemies would have been CGI renders made to look 3D but really 2D. After Mario 64, 2.5 3D wouldn't cut it, even if I would rather it, Sonic would have to be proper 3D


When one plays Sonic Adv you can see what I would say were Saturn stages still in there. Speed Highway feels like a Saturn level and when you run down the Skyscraper that looks for all the world like a VDP2 effect, much like how the VDP2 draws the lift shaft in Die Hard Arcade QTE. The Egg Carrier looks like a Saturn level with flat floors and flat scrolling clouds perfect for VDP2 and Chaos 4 battle plays and looks exactly like a VDP2 boss battle

 

[RetroGamingUK]

And as for sales — that's never been a fair measure. Nintendo's fanbase is practically generational; parents raise kids on Nintendo the same way people pass down family traditions. Sega fans aren't like that — they don't evangelize the brand to death. So yeah, Nintendo's going to outsell everyone, always. But that doesn't mean Sega's games weren't as good or better. It just means Nintendo's cultural machine was bigger.

You're onto something there.

Conversely having children got me back into Nintendo.

 

[freemandos]

If you wanted a Saturn over a PS1 your head was in Uranus.

Or being a Sega/Sonic fanboy at the time...








...like me.

 

[cireza]

Sonic Utopia

That's complete trash though because there is no purpose. Pointless, gigantic open world. Just like Frontiers.

 

[cireza]

Nintendo was the only one with a sense of planning and strategy; each game had a purpose. On the SNES, Pilotwings perfectly mimics a 3D game, Golden Eye 007 does things no FPS on the PS1 or Saturn does. It's not about the power of the N64 or SNES, but about developers creating a product within a plan aimed at expanding the base and motivating consumers to upgrade. When the Sega Genesis was released, its games were inferior to Turbografx-16 games like Legendary Axe, picture that, a powerful console like the Sega Genesis without a single showcase game, something like Sonic should have been a day one game not a 1991 game, even with these errors they were lucky that Nec-Hudson made more mistakes.

Your logic is so broken, nothing makes sense.

Of course Golden Eye had to be provide new things compared to Saturn : it's a late 1997 game lol. That's the least it could do.

The Game Boy did not have Pokemon at launch so the console had no plan, just as much as MegaDrive not having Sonic at launch ? Right ?

It seems you don't realize this, but early MegaDrive games completely paved the way for the 16 bits era. Games like Revenge of Shinobi, Phantasy Star II, sports games, and ports like Golden Axe, Ghouls'n Ghosts or Strider were unbelievable and required a ton of work, scaling up development scale, rom size, and showing how it had to be done. But no, SEGA had no plan lol.

 

[nkarafo]

That's complete trash though because there is no purpose. Pointless, gigantic open world. Just like Frontiers.

I'm obviously talking about the graphics, physics, controls, camera, etc. In order for Sonic to run as fast and control well in a completely free roaming 3D world, you need something like this.

There's nothing stopping the developer to spice up the map, add objectives, bosses, secrets, challenges and other things in it.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Of course Golden Eye had to be provide new things compared to Saturn : it's a late 1997 game lol. That's the least it could do.

Tell that to Sega, who released inferior games to those seen on the PC Engine even though Sega had a more powerful console than NEC. If Nintendo were like Sega, Golden Eye would be a 1997 game with 1996 technology and failed.

Phantasy Star II

Tengai Makyo

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Yeah, Mario 64 broke boundaries — no argument there. But "breaking boundaries" doesn't automatically mean better. Sega's design philosophy was about mechanical depth and player control — games that felt fast, fluid, and satisfying to master. Where Nintendo focused on playfulness and precision, Sega focused on energy and momentum. Games like Panzer Dragoon Zwei, NiGHTS, and Virtua Fighter 2 pushed gameplay feel and hardware limits in ways that were just as advanced, just aimed at a different audience.

And as for sales — that's never been a fair measure. Nintendo's fanbase is practically generational; parents raise kids on Nintendo the same way people pass down family traditions. Sega fans aren't like that — they don't evangelize the brand to death. So yeah, Nintendo's going to outsell everyone, always. But that doesn't mean Sega's games weren't as good or better. It just means Nintendo's cultural machine was bigger.

Don't go down that road, this theory that Nintendo games are good just because fans say they are good is false.
If 10 million people said VF2 was a good game, that wouldn't make it good. People's minds crave coherence; the design problems of these games are real and undeniable, which is why they don't sell well.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Your logic is so broken, nothing makes sense.

Of course Golden Eye had to be provide new things compared to Saturn : it's a late 1997 game lol. That's the least it could do.

The Game Boy did not have Pokemon at launch so the console had no plan, just as much as MegaDrive not having Sonic at launch ? Right ?

It seems you don't realize this, but early MegaDrive games completely paved the way for the 16 bits era. Games like Revenge of Shinobi, Phantasy Star II, sports games, and ports like Golden Axe, Ghouls'n Ghosts or Strider were unbelievable and required a ton of work, scaling up development scale, rom size, and showing how it had to be done. But no, SEGA had no plan lol.

He's just a troll I really don't get why you try and have a sensible debate with him.