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[RetroGamingUK]

Like I said you always bring up the ones that make the PS1 look better, never Saturn ones. I can't possibly think why LOL.
BTW, what's the framerate with Mass Destruction on the PS1 and does it have partical reflections?

Mass Destruction, another faux 3D VDP2 straw plucked

How do…

Tomb Raider
Die Hard Trilogy
Doom
Pandemonium
WipEout
Wipeout 2097
Hardcore 4x4
Tunnel B1
Formula Karts
NASCAR 98

…run on Saturn?



Then there's all the games that look better on PlayStation in terms of textures, lighting transparency etc...

Hi Octane
Toshinden
FIFA 97/98
Blam Machinehead
Actually Golf
Alien Trilogy
Madden 97/98
Actually Soccer
NBA Live 98
Soviet Strike
Independence Day
Croc
The Lost World

…I really could go on.



Not to mention all the PS1 3D exclusives that visually blew Saturn out of the water during their shared lifespan like...

Crash Bandicoot 1/2
Tomb Raider II
Rage Racer
Soul Blade
ISS Pro 98
Porsche Challenge
Gran Turismo
Tekken 3
Tenka
Rapid Racer
Motorhead


Saturn fanboys cling to the odd "3D" game like Mass Destruction in attempts to win arguments.

For Saturn fanboys the day Mass Destruction graced their poorly conceived console was the most important day of their lives. But for PlayStation… it was Tuesday.

 

[NeverYouMind]

For Saturn fanboys the day Mass Destruction graced their poorly conceived console was the most important day of their lives. But for PlayStation… it was Tuesday.

The day Real Bout Special graced my Saturn was a day of celebration but the day Real Bout Special: Dominated Mind unceremoniously entered my PS1 was a day of mourning.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Okay, so we've come to the conclusion that Saturn 3D was good enough for the era

No, it was too weak too weak for 3D, 15fps is not good, it has no lighting effects or transparency, and if it has one it lacks others. it lacks hp.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

The day Real Bout Special graced my Saturn was a day of celebration but the day Real Bout Special: Dominated Mind unceremoniously entered my PS1 was a day of mourning.

As a Saturn owner in 1997 you wouldn't believe how tired I got of seeing wall to wall coverage of Capcom and SNK's 2D fighters in Official Saturn magazine To me they just looked like nicer MegaDrive games.

I didn't give a fuck about 2D games in the late 90s and nor did the market.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Mass Destruction, another faux 3D VDP2 straw plucked

How do…

Tomb Raider
Die Hard Trilogy
Doom
Pandemonium
WipEout
Wipeout 2097
Hardcore 4x4
Tunnel B1
Formula Karts
NASCAR 98

…run on Saturn?

Then there's all the games that look better in terms of textures, lighting transparency etc

Hi Octane
Toshinden
FIFA 97/98
Blam Machinehead
Actually Golf
Alien Trilogy
Madden 97/98
Actually Soccer
NBA Live 98
Independence Day
Croc
The Lost World

…I really could go on.

Not to mention all the PS1 3D exclusives that visually blew Saturn out of the water during their shared lifespan like Crash Bandicoot, Tomb Raider II, Gran Turismo, Tekken 3,

Saturn fanboys cling to the odd "3D" game like Mass Destruction in attempts to win arguments.

For Saturn fanboys the day Mass Destruction graced their poorly conceived console was the most important day of their lives. But for PlayStation… it was Tuesday.

See you can't help it and just proved what I said and we all know the issues with Doom and TR

BTW Independence Day is better on the Saturn so is Soviet Strike and the same is true for Madden 97/8 - Tiburon really worked magic on the Saturn
And I love how you left out Zero Divide, Duke 3D, Street Racer, Dead Or Alive, Hexxen, I can't possibly think why...

 

[Team Andromeda]

As a Saturn owner in 1997 you wouldn't believe how tired I got of seeing wall to wall coverage of Capcom and SNK's 2D fighters in Official Saturn magazine To me they just looked like nicer MegaDrive games.

I didn't give a fuck about 2D games in the late 90s and nor did the market.

You must have read a different SSM to me then....

 

[RetroGamingUK]

See you can't help it and just proved what I said and we all know the issues with Doom and TR

BTW Independence Day is better on the Saturn so is Soviet Strike and the same is true for Madden 97/8 - Tiburon really worked magic on the Saturn
And I love how you left out Zero Divide, Duke 3D, Street Racer, Dead Or Alive, Hexxen, I can't possibly think why...

Doom and TR's issues must be highlighted, but Duke 3D on PlayStation being a lazy port with everything rendered in software, shh, we must be quiet about that one as we're really struggling to put together a list in Saturn's defence.

Zero Divide, that looked and played crap on both systems, but kudos for it daring to run a couple of polygons in the background, only took 3 years for someone to finally do it, surprised the Saturn didn't melt running it.

Hexen, another Saturn FPS that relies on 2D sprites for enemies, weapons and effects. The only time anyone attempted a 3D shooter on Saturn was Quake, and the use of 2D sprite weapons couldn't prevent the frame rate from ending up in the gutter whenever more than one enemy appeared. Thankfully the likes of Tenka and Quake 2 on PS1 proved fully 3D FPS games could be done on a 32-bit console without taking the CPU.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I'm going to give some credit where it's due here because, despite the bashing, I still have a soft spot for the old dog and this is one of my favourite games of all time...






...these are some mighty fine tarmac road textures, very smooth with no visible blockiness. It's up there with Ridge Racer Type 4 and I'm not sure how they did it.

No VPD2 shenanigans like Pai's lovely floor on Virtua Fighter 2, this is smooth textured quads

 

[Alexios]

I mean, the 2D assets in games like Powerslave were 3D on PlayStation which lacks 2D hardware and even way simpler 3D than full polygon models with probably just one triangle for each enemy/character etc. so it should perform even better in those rather than worse/matching Saturn. Same for racers like Need for Speed, it's not just Road Rash. Again, nobody said Saturn is equal/more powerful, folks just pointed out plenty complex games where the differences were negligible or Saturn showed off games that were equal to PS offerings in their own way, or their performance was on par (including games that didn't perform amazing, like Tomb Raider, just as Syphon Filter and other hyped PS games didn't perform great but are still beloved), etc., trying to say o well that game uses VDP2 so it's not a polygon so it somehow doesn't count like the end resulting game/visuals don't matter and only what's happening in the background does so Saturn should have been further gimped by not utilizing its full capabilities (as most games didn't anyway since they were tuned to PS hardware) is quite silly. Now you point out one of the games mentioned as better on Saturn is a bad game like shit like Die Hard Trilogy and 4x4 and other worse examples you can think of (even when Saturn has similar way better games such as Virtua Cop 2 vs the Die Hard Trilogy shooter part) were must haves or something, lol. Like, Idk if shit like Thunderstrike/Hawk II used VDP2 like Gungriffon does for the Saturn version to match the PS but whether it did or didn't, it worked. What's next, there shouldn't have been other cool games like AMOK using voxels because it's another way for Saturn to have some cool well performing 3D gaming and everything should be polygons only, we also shouldn't acknowledge things like awesome sky and cloud layers in other games like Street Racer and MechWarrior 2 so it can be gimped to the max I guess, pretty visual results don't matter, polygons or bust!

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I mean, the 2D assets in games like Powerslave were 3D on PlayStation which lacks 2D hardware and even simpler 3D than full polygon models with probably just one triangle for each enemy/character etc. so it should perform even better in those rather than worse/matching Saturn. Same for racers like Need for Speed, it's not just Road Rash. Again, nobody said Saturn is equal/more powerful, folks just pointed out plenty games where the differences were negligible or Saturn showed off games that were equal to PS offerings in their own way, or their performance was on par (including games that didn't perform amazing, like Tomb Raider, just as Syphon Filter and other hyped PS games didn't perform great), etc., trying to say o well that game uses VDP2 so not a polygon so it doesn't count like the end resulting game/visuals don't matter and only what's happening in the background does so Saturn should have been further gimped by not utilizing its full capabilities (as most games didn't anyway since they were tuned to PS hardware) is quite silly. Now you point out one of the games mentioned is a bad game like shit like Die Hard Trilogy and 4x4 and other worse examples you can think of (even when Saturn has similar way better games such as Virtua Cop 2 vs the Die Hard Trilogy shooter part) were must haves or something, lol.

Die Hard Trilogy doesn't seem to make any use of VDP2, you can tell by the way the quads get darker in the distance on Level 1. The airport scene has quite a lot going on in terms of true 3D and coupled with the glass it just looks a complete dog's dinner on Saturn.






Hardcore 4x4 the issue was that it was geometrically intensive, lots of complex road bumps surrounding by steep ridges, the kind of game PS1 was made for and Saturn wasn't, very little use for VDP2 here.




All these cars close to the camera and all the terrain topography, VDP1 is just getting murdered here and there's nothing the devs can do to stop it…

 

[Alexios]

No clue why you think that's a meaningful reply to anything you quoted. Those are trash on both systems so if Zero Divide (which is actually a very competent fighting game, better than Toshinden series previously shown as example of PS pushing ahead early on, also Idk why you think it's the only 3D fighter with background polygons on Saturn when it has Virtual On which is more 3D than most and there are arenas with slopes and other polygonal elements alongside fitting use of VDP2 backgrounds) doesn't count then they definitely don't. Again, Saturn has a way better looking, playing, performing shooter than Trilogy's lightgun section (actually two, both VC and VC2) and Tomb Raider is also a better 3D action adventure than its third person shooter part. Not much fits a direct comparison with its driving section but it's also bad on both. Saturn has the better Die Hard game.

Saturn has great textures in many more games than Sega Rally, plenty wonderful visuals in Panzer Dragoon Saga (though it can be uneven, some towns/characters and even the PC were badly done imo, but most creatures are ace and there are so many cool effects and areas and playable and viewable set pieces to experience), Die Hard Arcade and many more. Considering so many games had flat floors anyway then once again the use of VDP2 is not a negative not-polygons-so-it-doesn't-count but a positive for excellent quality floor/ground with megatexture style variety from end to end rather than repeating tiles, as in Grandia and others. Again just like the terrain in Gungriffon has slopes and other 3D elements using polygons on top of the VDP2 for the flat parts and doesn't lack compared to the similar but fully polygonal terrain in Thunderstrike/Hawk II. If devs cared a little bit there'd be much more use of VDP2 to enhance pretty much every game even if not originally tuned to Saturn, again like MechWarrior 2's (a rather random third party multiplatform game/port rather than some special tuned to Saturn deal) great sky effects, polygons or not.

But again nobody says Saturn was better, just that it wasn't such pure shit as you keep pushing just because in certain games tuned for PS it had slightly lesser results, just as the PS itself had lesser results than other platforms and even occasionally the Saturn, which itself has many 3D games excellent and on par with any greats of their era despite its weaknesses and many of them with a super quick turn out from small Sega teams (ie Panzer Dragoon 1 to 2 improvements) or even small third party developers/porters like Lobotomy (Slavedriver), Tantalus (Manx TT), Lemon (AMOK), Caproduction (Bulk Slash), Quantum Factory (MechWarrior 2) and other developers showing you hardly needed years and years and AAA budgets not worth spending to achieve good results on a less successful platform as you lot keep claiming every other post that it was "too hard" to do good.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Doom and TR's issues must be highlighted, but Duke 3D on PlayStation being a lazy port with everything rendered in software, shh, we must be quiet about that one as we're really struggling to put together a list in Saturn's defence.

Zero Divide, that looked and played crap on both systems, but kudos for it daring to run a couple of polygons in the background, only took 3 years for someone to finally do it, surprised the Saturn didn't melt running it.

Hexen, another Saturn FPS that relies on 2D sprites for enemies, weapons and effects. The only time anyone attempted a 3D shooter on Saturn was Quake, and the use of 2D sprite weapons couldn't prevent the frame rate from ending up in the gutter whenever more than one enemy appeared. Thankfully the likes of Tenka and Quake 2 on PS1 proved fully 3D FPS games could be done on a 32-bit console without taking the CPU.

Doom on the Saturn is software rendered too, but shh we must be quiet about it, as we've got an agender. I've provided you with examples of 3D shooters with polygons on Saturn, but like usual you dismiss them and bang about how it's unfair to use them since they use VDP2

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Doom on the Saturn is software rendered too, but shh we must be quiet about it, as we've got an agender. I've provided you with examples of 3D shooters with polygons on Saturn, but like usual you dismiss them and bang about how it's unfair to use them since they use VDP2

No you provided FPS games with flat billboard enemies and guns, even in 1997 (Sega Flash 5) I thought Duke 3D looked horrible and dated.

Just something about that SNES style sprite scaling, bleh!

I've always been a graphics whore though, Sonic looking prettier than Mario World is the whole reason I got into Sega in the first place

 

[Team Andromeda]

No you provided FPS games with flat billboard enemies and guns, even in 1997 (Sega Flash 5) I thought Duke 3D looked horrible and dated.

Just something about that SNES style sprite scaling, bleh!

I've always been a graphics whore though, Sonic looking prettier than Mario World is the whole reason I got into Sega in the first place

I didn't use Duke, but this



3D polygon enemies in a FPS on Saturn, runs super smooth too. Go on, talk of the VDP2

 

[cireza]

ROM is slower than RAM but much faster than the CD.

Who said it had to be decompressed from the CD exactly ? No one. You store your handful of compressed pictures in RAM and decompress them on the fly. Doesn't need to be very fast as these are transitions, not real-time animations in a 60fps game. If it takes a few frames rather than one, it won't be an issue.

Again, I don't see how the PS1 could store and uncompress pictures from RAM but not the Saturn. This is pure fantasy. This has been done since the days of 8 bits gaming, from ROM, from RAM. With dedicated compression algorithms implement directly in the games. Not Rocket Science.

Resident Evil 1 and Deep Fear already hold several plans of the same rooms in memory and it wasn't an issue at all.

 

[Alexios]

Doom on the Saturn is software rendered too, but shh we must be quiet about it, as we've got an agender. I've provided you with examples of 3D shooters with polygons on Saturn, but like usual you dismiss them and bang about how it's unfair to use them since they use VDP2

Dude, nkfaro was praising Doom 64 as one of the best games of the era, best looking N64 game that still holds up among the best visuals of the era, etc. etc. (and others agreed), but now sprite enemies in an FPS are the devil just because of amazing Saturn games like Powerslave, lol. Of course it's in a thread RetroGamingUK made to praise the N64, he didn't dispute such opinions trashing the games people praised for a beloved platform, positive talk was welcome and encouraged in all, we only froth against Saturn software here, even great for any platform games like Duke Nukem 3D

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I didn't use Duke, but this



3D polygon enemies in a FPS on Saturn, runs super smooth too. Go on, talk of the VDP2

It ticks boxes but it just looks meh, it hasn't got that nice lighting like Quake or Tenka that makes things pop.

Seriously I was very picky back then. I was put off the PS1 in 1996 after seeing F1 (I didn't like the lines on the tracks) and Tekken 2 (I didn't like the angular look) at a friend's.

Had they shown me Crash Bandicoot and WipEout 2097 instead I'd have probably bought a PlayStation instead of a Saturn with Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Dude was praising Doom 64 as one of the best games of the era, best looking N64 game that still holds up among the best visuals of the era, etc., etc., but now sprite enemies in an FPS are the devil just because of the amazing Saturn games like Powerslave, lmao.

Was I fuck, I've never once praised that game.

Keep projecting.

 

[diffusionx]

Who said it had to be decompressed from the CD exactly ? No one. You store your handful of compressed pictures in RAM and decompress them on the fly. Doesn't need to be very fast as these are transitions, not real-time animations in a 60fps game. If it takes a few frames rather than one, it won't be an issue.

Again, I don't see how the PS1 could store and uncompress pictures from RAM but not the Saturn. This is pure fantasy. This has been done since the days of 8 bits gaming, from ROM, from RAM. With dedicated compression algorithms implement directly in the games. Not Rocket Science.

Resident Evil 1 and Deep Fear already hold several plans of the same rooms in memory and it wasn't an issue at all.

Too bad you weren't on the dev team and could have just told them this lol

you could have saved the saturn

 

[cireza]

Too bad you weren't on the dev team and could have just told them this lol

you could have saved the saturn

For sure.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Dude, nkfaro was praising Doom 64 as one of the best games of the era, best looking N64 game that still holds up among the best visuals of the era, etc., etc. (and others agreed), but now sprite enemies in an FPS are the devil just because of amazing Saturn games like Powerslave, lol. Of course in that thread which he made to praise the N64 he didn't dispute such opinions trashing the game, positive talk was welcome in all forms, we only froth against the Saturn software here

Yep, the trolling is rife on here

It ticks boxes but it just looks meh, it hasn't got that nice lighting like Quake or Tenka that makes things pop.

Seriously I was very picky back then. I was put off the PS1 in 1996 after seeing F1 (I didn't like the lines on the tracks) and Tekken 2 (I didn't like the angular look) at a friend's.

Had they shown me Crash Bandicoot and WipEout 2097 instead I'd have probably bought a PlayStation instead of a Saturn with Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally.

Lighting now, Jesus Christ

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Lighting now, Jesus Christ

You just have a higher tolerance for ugly graphics and me being a bit shallow probably led to me missing out on some great games, that's the difference we're having here.

Neither of us is right or wrong, just different perspectives.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Again, I don't see how the PS1 could store and uncompress pictures from RAM but not the Saturn. This is pure fantasy. This has been done since the days of 8 bits gaming, from ROM, from RAM. With dedicated compression algorithms implement directly in the games. Not Rocket Science.

Resident Evil 1 and Deep Fear already hold several plans of the same rooms in memory and it wasn't an issue at all.

So did the Crow, but the less said about that the better. At the end of the day in the same way Capcom got X-Men Vs Streetfighter on the PS1, they would have got RE2 on the Saturn with cutbacks
But Capcom couldn't have been more clear the Saturn version was dropped because of Dreamcast, and they didn't even need more memory

You just have a higher tolerance for ugly graphics and me being a bit shallow probably led to me missing out on some great games, that's the difference we're having here.

Neither of us is right or wrong, just different perspectives.

I had a PS1 mate, so spare on that score. Well it was my brothers PS, but he was busy falling in love and getting his girlfriend up the duff and so I enjoy his PS1 along with my Saturn.

 

[Crayon]

As a Saturn owner in 1997 you wouldn't believe how tired I got of seeing wall to wall coverage of Capcom and SNK's 2D fighters in Official Saturn magazine To me they just looked like nicer MegaDrive games.

I didn't give a fuck about 2D games in the late 90s and nor did the market.

Same here. I still appreciated a 2d game that was showing some amount of next-gen punch but 3d was so much more exciting and experimental. A 2d game had to be seriously good to get my attention. I was interested in 3d gameplay most, but even 3d graphics in a 2d platformer was much more exciting for me.

But if it came down to a 2d game using 3d graphics, or a 3d game leaning heavily on scaled sprites, I would take the one with the 3d gameplay and sprites.

As nice as those fighting games, or d&d, or the space shooters, etc were, they did not go far enough to advance things. Bigger sprites with more colors and more frames were not enough. I wish sega could have had some more vision of how to leverage the saturn's capabilities more and set an example.

 

[Crayon]

Me getting ready before going in this thread:

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

As a Saturn owner in 1997 you wouldn't believe how tired I got of seeing wall to wall coverage of Capcom and SNK's 2D fighters in Official Saturn magazine To me they just looked like nicer MegaDrive games.

I didn't give a fuck about 2D games in the late 90s and nor did the market.

Quoted for emphasis. And let's face it, fighting games kinda peaked in relevance with Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Kombat. The 3D fighters had some novelty and a mild renaissance but, a bunch of 2D games and like 8 variants of fucking Virtua Fighter does not a competitive lineup make.

Saturn fans opening up a fresh issue of DieHard GameFan, EGM, or GamePro in 1997:

 

[Crayon]

Quoted for emphasis. And let's face it, fighting games kinda peaked in relevance with Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Kombat. The 3D fighters had some novelty and a mild renaissance but, a bunch of 2D games and like 8 variants of fucking Virtua Fighter does not a competitive lineup make.

Saturn fans opening up a fresh issue of DieHard GameFan, EGM, or GamePro in 1997:

Fighters were still kicking into to 2000's. 2d ones not so much, though. Street Fighter fatigue was setting in when super turbo hit arcades and mortal kombat 3 didn't have the buzz that 2 did. 2D really was out of fashion and for good reason, imo. PC's were quite expensive and the rest of us had been stuck in flatland all our lives.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

2D really was out of fashion and for good reason, imo.

I explained this in this thread, 2D or 3D doesn't matter, important thing is that the game has quality. True, games like Tekken 1 sold 1M in Japan in 10 months 1995, while MK 3 had poor sales on the PS1, but MK3 wasn't a great game, ps1 had no installed base, Sony only managed to create a base in 1996, so MK Trilogy sold 2M, even in 2025 selling games is a Herculean task, Sega's new Shinobi has not yet reached 200,000 copies.

 

[Crayon]

I explained this in this thread, 2D or 3D doesn't matter, important thing is that the game has quality. True, games like Tekken 1 sold 1M in Japan in 10 months 1995, while MK 3 had poor sales on the PS1, but MK3 wasn't a great game, ps1 had no installed base, Sony only managed to create a base in 1996, so MK Trilogy sold 2M, even in 2025 selling games is a Herculean task, Sega's new Shinobi has not yet reached 200,000 copies.

It mattered very much. 2D games had a serious uphill battle at that point, and had to be peak quality to get attention.

Good you mentioned Shinobi - This illustrates an issue. Shinobi Legions was not good enough. When sony is coming out there with tekken and wipeout, a mediocre game of shinobi with muddy digitized sprites is not helping. It's not a blip. Sega should have taken that ip more seriously and released something that had some vision and some next-gen punch. That could have been 2D, but it would have had to go hard and look nothing like anything on genesis. There was little to no excitement around shinobi legions because it looked and played a little too close to a 16-bit game.

So maybe 2D/3D is not the issue, but visual presentation most definitely was at a time when 3DO had already been making the snes look like a kids toy for a year. There were just too many new and exciting games coming from every angle and that is what was selling new consoles.

I'd say early rpg and strategy games managed to escape this since that was a genre kinda thin on the ground. But anything action-based? If the graphics were not clearly impossible on 16-bit to the layman, the game was starting with a big disadvantage.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I'd say early rpg and strategy games managed to escape this since that was a genre kinda thin on the ground. But anything action-based? If the graphics were not clearly impossible on 16-bit to the layman, the game was starting with a big disadvantage.

It doesn't matter the console or the gen, if people don't see intellectual effort in the IP there will be no success, Vectorman sold 500,000 copies due to intellectual effort , while there are exceptions, as I said MK3 is not a great game but it sold a lot on 16-bit consoles due to the strength of the brand. The PS1 has among its best selling games many 2D games (RPG, adventure, action) but there is something that cannot be neglected, a game like Tomb Raider, a racing game like Need for Speed, the cutscenes in FF7 destroy low budget 2d games easily. Making a 2D game capable of facing the three dimensions is not an easy task, it requires intelligence, to leave laziness and mediocrity behind, note FF7, a pre-rendered game but note the good work of the cutscenes (used for immersion and marketing ad) challenging FF7 would require a high definition sprites, anime standard cutscenes.

they knew that the Saturn did not have the power for 3D worlds so much so that they made Shinobi and Clockwork Knight as a market test, think about it, you release a low-quality 2D game, the game flops, then you go into the meeting room and say "people don't want 2D games" lol
but they knew that the PS1 was capable of making convincing 3D worlds, so someone in the meeting room says "let's do 3D, people won't notice" (this is the strategy of the Sega Saturn that was released in 1994). If I were in the room I would say "for god's sake we can't go with 3D, there will be comparisons, we will be a ladder for Sony, we need to make games like Clockwork Knight but bigger and better."

 

[Alexios]

As nice as those fighting games, or d&d, or the space shooters, etc were, they did not go far enough to advance things. Bigger sprites with more colors and more frames were not enough. I wish sega could have had some more vision of how to leverage the saturn's capabilities more and set an example.

Some of those are the pinnacle of their respective genre (or close to it with a slightly later entry being that on platforms that followed the generation) and do way more than just nicer visuals (which are also way nicer than anything 16bit). SFA2 is certainly not just a nicer looking SFII (which itself was far from perfectly ported to 16bit, but good enough, we didn't expect arcade perfect - or a close enough impression - before Saturn unless it was a much older game making the trip to console), same for games pioneering tag fighting and features we still take for granted because without them games just aren't as fun and the D&D games are certainly not just a Final Fight that looks nicer either (and again itself far from perfectly ported on 16bit despite being so much more basic) etc. But hey opinions and all that. I for one am glad that despite all the Sony marketing on the contrary back in the day (and then everybody else's marketing as 3D was just easier to sell regardless of quality, hence all the early discussions here about freaking Toshinden like shit like that mattered more than actual good games I guess, SEGA is also guilty of this, for every timeless gem like Daytona USA they also had a ton of other stuff noone remembers still make bank in the arcades and everywhere) which led to opinions like this we still get awesome 2D games that are as worthwhile as anything 3D nowadays, never mind 20-30 years ago where they were even less explored. But hey Saturn got great 3D games too, some of them worth exploring now for those who missed them thanks to a lack of translation or whatever has been remedied even if they're now way further from the cutting edge than they were back then just for being potentially slghtly technically inferior to something PS.

But hey maybe you lot should just do a thread trashing 2D games (or 90s 2D games) in general, it'll probably go a little different than when hidden in a Saturn bashing thread. Or not, it could at least be a semi interesting not beaten to death trash fest on repeat. I mean, one of the most famous PS 2D games (one that was actually worse on Saturn, lol) does look way more like a 16bit game (with some cool effects sprinkled here & there for good measure but still largely mirroring the previous 16bit -ish!- iteration) than those but is still worth all its success and fame alongside anything 3D ​

 

[Crayon]

Some of those are the pinnacle of their respective genre (or close to it with a slightly later entry being that on platforms that followed the generation) and do way more than just nicer visuals (which are also way nicer than anything 16bit). SFA2 is certainly not just a nicer looking SFII (which itself was far from perfectly ported to 16bit, but good enough, we didn't expect arcade perfect - or a close enough impression - before Saturn unless it was a much older game making the trip to console), same for games pioneering tag fighting and many tropes we still take for granted because without them games just aren't as fun and the D&D games are certainly not just a Final Fight that looks nicer either (and again itself far from perfectly ported on 16bit despite being so much more basic) etc. But hey opinions and all that. I for one am glad that despite all the Sony marketing on the contrary back in the day (and then everybody else's marketing as 3D was just easier to sell regardless of quality, hence all the early discussions here about freaking Toshinden like shit like that mattered more than actual good games I guess, SEGA is also guilty of this, for every timeless gem like Daytona USA they also had a ton of other stuff noone remembers still make bank in the arcades and everywhere) which led to opinions like this we still get awesome 2D games that are as worthwhile as anything 3D nowadays, never mind 20-30 years ago. But hey Saturn got great 3D games too, some of them worth exploring now for those who missed them thanks to a lack of translation or whatever has finaly been remedied even if they're now way further from the cutting edge than they were back then just for being potentially slghtly technically inferior to something on PS.

But hey maybe you lot should just do a thread trashing 2D games in general, it'll probably go a little different than a specifically Saturn bashing thread. Or not, Idk, could at least be a semi interesting not beaten to death trash fest vs what we're seeing here, lol. I mean, one of the most famous PS 2D games (that that was actually worse on Saturn, lol) does look a lot more like a 16bit game (with some cool effects sprinkled here and there for good measure but still largely mirroring the previous 16bit-ish iteration) than those but is still worth all its success and fame alongside anything 3D

Omg you guys are nuts. Like do I need to put a disclaimer that this is my favorite old console in my collection by usage. I've had one hooked up for the last 2 years straight, when these things used to always be in rotation.

We all very much appreciate that library of 2d games today, and I did back then, too. But the zeitgeist in those years was "32-BIT CDROM" and these consoles were promising the fucking world. When ps1 won the market, 2d games were starting to get more of a fair shake again but in those years of 3DO, 32X, and Jaguar, I was in a frenzy for 3d games.

I knew that some of these 2d games I was passing over were more well developed and complete than the 3d ones I passed them over for. But novelty goes a long way. Twisted Metal is a hot mess but hey I'd never played anything like that. That counts for a lot even if it doesn't hold up the best these days. At the time I wanted to see what my new $300 toy could really do and there were endless examples.

And no the huge bias towards 3d wasn't just everyone blinded by sony marketing. It's because 3d was there and it was the real thing. It looked awesome and enabled so much new gameplay. Those 94-96 years were dominated by 3d games and it's a totally natural thing to expect.

So yes, *in a way*, D&D was just final fight with better graphics. It just did not have the visceral impact that players were thirsting for at the time. Not at a time when we were being dazzled every month with quickly-evolving 3d games. In your words: 3d was an easier sell regardless of quality. Yeah it was true.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Good you mentioned Shinobi - This illustrates an issue. Shinobi Legions was not good enough. When sony is coming out there with tekken and wipeout, a mediocre game of shinobi with muddy digitized sprites is not helping. It's not a blip. Sega should have taken that ip more seriously and released something that had some vision and some next-gen punch. That could have been 2D, but it would have had to go hard and look nothing like anything on genesis. There was little to no excitement around shinobi legions because it looked and played a little too close to a 16-bit game.

That isn't being quite fair though and you act like SEGA didn't have any 3D games in development, while it was working on 3D polygon games like VF, Clockwork night, Daytona USA and also spending the most it had ever had on a game and also at the time one of the most expensive consoles games made in Panzer Dragoon. You talk about Wipeout, SEGA made Gran Chaser 1st and it's a shame, the final product wasn't that amazing, but it was still fun and another early Saturn 3D polygon game

I like Shinobi and it should have been a better showcase for Saturn 2D, for me the bigger cock up was to rush Daytona USA out in the state SEGA did. That did so much damage to Saturn 3D rep and a shame too, because it came after Panzer Dragoon, which impressed a lot of people with its 3D graphics

Like I said before, I think more of a mistake than Shinobi was SEGA not porting Revenge Of Death Adder and Arbian Fight, games that not only would have been a great showcase for Saturn 2D and with Golden Axe a totally brilliant game to a SEGA fans IP fav, but also great titles for the Multi-Tap

 

[Alexios]

We all very much appreciate that library of 2d games today,

I didn't reply to appreciation, if you post such at some point I'll respond accordingly I guess.

So yes, *in a way*, D&D was just final fight with better graphics.

Nope. Gonna have to reiterate my last post I guess. They're much deeper, more interesting mechanically and more varied games that elevate the whole genre to heights no home console 3D game did back then. I suppose you could say they follow after River City to add that depth and complexity but still do it in ways you couldn't before and it's not like it was the troden genre norm. Also could never be ported to Genesis/SNES which couldn't even handle Final Fight fully. If you enjoyed Fighting Force or something more because it was 3D, sorry, you did fall for the marketing of 3D flash and even acknowledge it saying you skipped better games for worse fully aware of it just based on that, polygons vs sprites. Shit Guardian Heroes is largely 2D, enhanced with 3D and Die Hard Arcade is 3D but still the D&D games are better (but they're still worth playing, you can't only replay just the very bestest forever after all). You do you I guess, I play the good games whether 2D or 3D or VR in 2025, never mind the 90s and don't consider any outdated even if the tech that allowed them to exist came (or matured, as it kept doing for 2D & 3D) earlier than others, good design is timeless

And yes, other shit sold better (well, I'm sure D&D games made a profit hence having a sequel but likely largely on arcades, not the failing Saturn), I don't think I said otherwise to reiterate it like I disputed how things went down in financial and other success. Just spoke as gamer, not investor

Not like I responded to something prefacing "I love these games and think they have awesome gameplay but flashy 3D stuff sold better", I responded to a post trashing them as things they fatually aren't, ie slightly better looking variants of things you could play on SNES. They're not

Could at least say "people THOUGHT of them as such" (news flash, marketing would be to blame for that, especially as many wouldn't have played them before deciding that opinion) rather than claim they were such and now double down that they indeed were such. They were not.

 

[Crayon]

That isn't being quite fair though and you act like SEGA didn't have any 3D games in development, while it was working on 3D polygon games like VF, Clockwork night, Daytona USA and also spending the most it had ever had on a game and also at the time one of the most expensive consoles games made in Panzer Dragoon. You talk about Wipeout, SEGA made Gran Chaser 1st and it's a shame, the final product wasn't that amazing, but it was still fun and another early Saturn 3D polygon game

I like Shinobi and it should have been a better showcase for Saturn 2D, for me the bigger cock up was to rush Daytona USA out in the state SEGA did. That did so much damage to Saturn 3D rep and a shame too, because it came after Panzer Dragoon, which impressed a lot of people with its 3D graphics

Like I said before, I think more of a mistake than Shinobi was SEGA not porting Revenge Of Death Adder and Arbian Fight, games that not only would have been a great showcase for Saturn 2D and with Golden Axe a totally brilliant game to a SEGA fans IP fav, but also great titles for the Multi-Tap

Nah I don't think that's the case of me not acknowledging any of their 3d games. We're just talking about the bias towards 3d then in general. Geometric Crusher thinks it wasn't as much of a factor and I think it was more.

But hey since you typed all that:

That's true they did go in well on the 3d in it's own right but I'm seeing some killer ip's that were left on the table. Showcase is a useful word, here.

Shinobi could have been a showcase, but it was made, so it wasn't. Sonic could have been a showcase, but it was not made, so it wasn't.

Panzer Dragoon 1 for instance was a proper showcase, but it was a sort of odd ip without instant appeal, and it wasn't till the second one truly commanding attention that the ip was established. They could have come with Thunder Blade, Afterburner, or even space harrier. Either in place of PD or alongside it.

The identity of the saturn was colored a lot by the arcade ports and I don't think that was for the best. If it had been more identified with the strong genesis ip's in that first 18 months, that may have helped.

Take daytona since you mentioned it - They tout this arcade experience at home, but they end up with that saturn version and it's a real bad look. Meanwhile sony shows off convincing 3d arcade games with easy ports from much weaker hardare. doh. Daytona was the face of saturn because there was no sonic, when you think about it.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Daytona was the face of saturn because there was no sonic, when you think about it.

This was the face of Saturn

 

[Crayon]

I didn't reply to appreciation, if you post such at some point I'll respond accordingly I guess.

Nope. Gonna have to reiterate my last post. They're much deeper, more interesting mechanically and more varied games that elevate the whole genre to heights no home console 3D game did back then. Also could never be ported to Genesis/SNES which couldn't even handle Final Fight fully. If you enjoyed Fighting Force or something more because it was 3D, sorry, you did fall for the marketing of 3D flash and even acknowledge it saying you skipped better games for worse fully aware of it just based on that, polygons vs sprites. Shit Guardian Heroes is largely 2D, enhanced with 3D visually but still the D&D games are better (but it's still worth playing, you can't only replay just the very bestest of anything forever after all). You do you I guess, I play the good games whether 2D or 3D or VR in 2025, never mind the 90s and don't consider any outdated even if the tech that allowed them to exist came (or matured, as it kept doing for 2D & 3D) later than others, good design is timeless

And yes, other shit sold better (well, I'm sure D&D games made a profit hence having a sequel but likely largely on arcades, not the failing Saturn), I don't think I said otherwise to reiterate it like I disputed how things went down in financial and other success. Just speaking as gamer, not investor

Yeah I am not sure you are getting this. D&D is everything you say it is, but at that moment in history, it looked like old hat. I knew it would be excellent to have at home. I was really impressed with it at the arcade but it was a real quarter eater. Even then, I was going to take the hot new 3D shit lol. I wouldn't go as far to say that it was just prettier final fight to me personally, but I think to a lot of more casual people it looked like just that. I understand because I felt where that was coming from.

So bottom line - I really like these games. But at that time, they were having a hard time getting noticed. And I fully understand why because I did that first-hand. But the point here is that I'm saying I wasn't making uninformed choices. Those were informed choices to play astal and in the hunt later in favor of playing vf and wipeout now.

Of course I didn't want fighting force lol. How bout tenchu? Never played anything like that before.

 

[Alexios]

How bout tenchu? Never played anything like that before.

Love tenchu with its shitty visuals. Shame the series wasn't such a success after the first. I hadn't played anything like the beautiful D&D either, even Capcom's other beat em ups/hack and slash arcades were so different, never mind at a 16bit home that couldn't replicate simple stuff like Final Fight.

 

[Crayon]

This was the face of Saturn

Yeah same difference. Face looks kinda like a car hood.

 

[Crayon]

Love tenchu with its shitty visuals.

So did I. I'd never played anything like it before.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Yeah, the system was so well documented that why so many developers couldn't figure out to get AA in their games . The system was hard to use and so was the PS3, but if you get Marketshare developers don't care at all, that what matters the most, not how wonderful your system tools and API's are. The GameCube showed that

SONY and going early was not a direct order from Japan, I think Tom once said, it was even his idea. Not that going early was wrong at all IMO. SOA just picked the wrong date and should have gone in early Aug 95 when Bug, VF Remix, Clockwork Night 2 were ready to go

At the end of the day going early was a panic mode by SOA has they thought the 32X would be massive seller and they wouldn't have to worry much about selling the Saturn, that was the really issue IMO

Going early by a month would've been fruitless since they'd still miss out on marketing budget and advertising cycles set for a September launch many months earlier in the year, and a month's worth head-start wouldn't have done much for the Saturn in building a substantive lead ahead of the PlayStation. Even with the selection of games you list, SEGA still run into a similar problem as they did back in May: the software just wouldn't have had appeal with American gamers the way Sony's PS1 launch lineup did.

Like, we can probably debate the merits of a game like 1Xtreme compared to VF Remix in a contemporary context all day, but back in 1995, teenagers in America looking to get a new 32-bit console were absolutely more impressed with a game like 1Xtreme than they were with VF Remix. You have to take tastes at the time into account, arguably more so than us looking back on it today in hindsight.

I'm not really gonna get into the PS2 stuff here as that's got little to nothing to do with Saturn, but I will just say that Gamecube wasn't the ease-of-use miracle you're making it out to be, in large part because of the mini-disc format they chose. Nintendo were easing into being easier to work with as a platform holder to 3P licensees, but they were still lightyears behind Sony in that respect.

Also AFAIK it was SEGA of Japan who forced SOA to launch Saturn early in America; Tom would've never willingly chosen to destroy relationships with retailers if he had any say in the matter. He's a marketing & sales guy, after all: strong retail relationships are his lifeblood.

 

[Alexios]

Mesh transparencies could look more like this for many back in the day anyway (RF & Composite).

Sega Rally at this timestamp for a 3D game, Mega Man X4 at 3:28 for another big mesh example...

I've found real CRT footage to show it's not the shader/emulator overcompensating or modifying anything to fix it. Sadly other footage he has for games like Sega Rally is much older so it's not as nice quality, but you can still see this. Check them cop car windows:

It's true other connection types wouldn't do this, devs kept that in mind hence things like the intro missing a windshield before the bullets fly to show characters in the car clear to all players. The notorious Tunnel B1, not as nice footage but it sure beats raw pixels:

A screenshot for those who don't wanna watch a video looking for transparency, the mesh is 100% invisible (mind the Model 2 also only had (fine) mesh transparency and did some things different, like the missing windshield it's only a frame on the door window):

PS: VF/Daytona as the face of Saturn (still for hardcore haters, never mind then) after VC/2, Sega Rally, VF Remix/2 (or random ok stuff like Hang On) vs weaker board PS ports is another (Sony) marketing success (gaming/mainstream media covered it & little after).

 

[Crayon]

It doesn't matter the console or the gen, if people don't see intellectual effort in the IP there will be no success, Vectorman sold 500,000 copies due to intellectual effort , while there are exceptions, as I said MK3 is not a great game but it sold a lot on 16-bit consoles due to the strength of the brand. The PS1 has among its best selling games many 2D games (RPG, adventure, action) but there is something that cannot be neglected, a game like Tomb Raider, a racing game like Need for Speed, the cutscenes in FF7 destroy low budget 2d games easily. Making a 2D game capable of facing the three dimensions is not an easy task, it requires intelligence, to leave laziness and mediocrity behind, note FF7, a pre-rendered game but note the good work of the cutscenes (used for immersion and marketing ad) challenging FF7 would require a high definition sprites, anime standard cutscenes.

they knew that the Saturn did not have the power for 3D worlds so much so that they made Shinobi and Clockwork Knight as a market test, think about it, you release a low-quality 2D game, the game flops, then you go into the meeting room and say "people don't want 2D games" lol
but they knew that the PS1 was capable of making convincing 3D worlds, so someone in the meeting room says "let's do 3D, people won't notice" (this is the strategy of the Sega Saturn that was released in 1994). If I were in the room I would say "for god's sake we can't go with 3D, there will be comparisons, we will be a ladder for Sony, we need to make games like Clockwork Knight but bigger and better."

No lie I am having trouble following you here. But I don't think shying away from comparison would be the answer. It's kind of impossible unless they were to going to reject multiplatform games. They would have had to do that toe-to-toe just the way they did.

 

[cartman414]

Saturn and N64 had very contrasting libraries.

Saturn's strengths being 2D shmups and fighting games

N64's strengths being platformers adventure games

I think PlayStation being strong in all above areas again contributed to its success

It was admittedly weaker in places than both.

You were definitely missing out by being locked to one console that gen.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

No lie I am having trouble following you here. But I don't think shying away from comparison would be the answer. It's kind of impossible unless they were to going to reject multiplatform games. They would have had to do that toe-to-toe just the way they did.

Only by rejecting all multiplatform games would Sega have any chance. And definitely, their 3D game should be clones of Guardian Heroes and Clockwork knight maybe some fighting games , many clones made at industrial level, after so many games some of them burst the bubble. In any other scenario, Sega wouldn't have a chance, not with the weak Saturn that was released.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Only by rejecting all multiplatform games would Sega have any chance. And definitely, their 3D game should be clones of Guardian Heroes and Clockwork knight maybe some fighting games , many clones made at industrial level, after so many games some of them burst the bubble. In any other scenario, Sega wouldn't have a chance, not with the weak Saturn that was released.

So basically...

- no Tomb Raider
- no Resident Evil
- no Mortal Kombats
- no Need for Speed
- no FIFA
- no Madden
- no NBA Live
- no Capcom/SNK fighters

...as for Guardian Heroes and Clockwork Knight, no one wanted those games in the first place, so why make more in their style.

Well done for halving Saturn's sales there

 

[NeverYouMind]

This was the face of Saturn

Not my Saturn.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Not my Saturn.

Were people in the west even aware of Segata in the 90s?

Akira or "low polygon man" (which is how I assume most people saw him) was on the console box front and every demo pod at launch.

Virtua Fighter WAS the face of Saturn globally in 1995

 

[NeverYouMind]

Low polygon man was on the console box front and every demo pod at launch.

Virtua Fighter WAS the face of Saturn globally in 1995

Mine was white like promo.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Mine was white like promo.

Always though we should have had the original silver Japanese version as an option in the west considering consumer tech was heading that way in the late 90s anyway.