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[RetroGamingUK]

Like I said you always bring up the ones that make the PS1 look better, never Saturn ones. I can't possibly think why LOL.
BTW, what's the framerate with Mass Destruction on the PS1 and does it have partical reflections?

Mass Destruction, another faux 3D VDP2 straw plucked

How do…

Tomb Raider
Die Hard Trilogy
Doom
Pandemonium
WipEout
Wipeout 2097
Hardcore 4x4
Tunnel B1
Formula Karts
NASCAR 98

…run on Saturn?



Then there's all the games that look better on PlayStation in terms of textures, lighting transparency etc...

Hi Octane
Toshinden
FIFA 97/98
Blam Machinehead
Actually Golf
Alien Trilogy
Madden 97/98
Actually Soccer
NBA Live 98
Soviet Strike
Independence Day
Croc
The Lost World

…I really could go on.



Not to mention all the PS1 3D exclusives that visually blew Saturn out of the water during their shared lifespan like...

Crash Bandicoot 1/2
Tomb Raider II
Rage Racer
Soul Blade
ISS Pro 98
Porsche Challenge
Gran Turismo
Tekken 3
Tenka
Rapid Racer
Motorhead


Saturn fanboys cling to the odd "3D" game like Mass Destruction in attempts to win arguments.

For Saturn fanboys the day Mass Destruction graced their poorly conceived console was the most important day of their lives. But for PlayStation… it was Tuesday.

 

[NeverYouMind]

For Saturn fanboys the day Mass Destruction graced their poorly conceived console was the most important day of their lives. But for PlayStation… it was Tuesday.

The day Real Bout Special graced my Saturn was a day of celebration but the day Real Bout Special: Dominated Mind unceremoniously entered my PS1 was a day of mourning.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Okay, so we've come to the conclusion that Saturn 3D was good enough for the era

No, it was too weak too weak for 3D, 15fps is not good, it has no lighting effects or transparency, and if it has one it lacks others. it lacks hp.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

The day Real Bout Special graced my Saturn was a day of celebration but the day Real Bout Special: Dominated Mind unceremoniously entered my PS1 was a day of mourning.

As a Saturn owner in 1997 you wouldn't believe how tired I got of seeing wall to wall coverage of Capcom and SNK's 2D fighters in Official Saturn magazine To me they just looked like nicer MegaDrive games.

I didn't give a fuck about 2D games in the late 90s and nor did the market.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Mass Destruction, another faux 3D VDP2 straw plucked

How do…

Tomb Raider
Die Hard Trilogy
Doom
Pandemonium
WipEout
Wipeout 2097
Hardcore 4x4
Tunnel B1
Formula Karts
NASCAR 98

…run on Saturn?

Then there's all the games that look better in terms of textures, lighting transparency etc

Hi Octane
Toshinden
FIFA 97/98
Blam Machinehead
Actually Golf
Alien Trilogy
Madden 97/98
Actually Soccer
NBA Live 98
Independence Day
Croc
The Lost World

…I really could go on.

Not to mention all the PS1 3D exclusives that visually blew Saturn out of the water during their shared lifespan like Crash Bandicoot, Tomb Raider II, Gran Turismo, Tekken 3,

Saturn fanboys cling to the odd "3D" game like Mass Destruction in attempts to win arguments.

For Saturn fanboys the day Mass Destruction graced their poorly conceived console was the most important day of their lives. But for PlayStation… it was Tuesday.

See you can't help it and just proved what I said and we all know the issues with Doom and TR

BTW Independence Day is better on the Saturn so is Soviet Strike and the same is true for Madden 97/8 - Tiburon really worked magic on the Saturn
And I love how you left out Zero Divide, Duke 3D, Street Racer, Dead Or Alive, Hexxen, I can't possibly think why...

 

[Team Andromeda]

As a Saturn owner in 1997 you wouldn't believe how tired I got of seeing wall to wall coverage of Capcom and SNK's 2D fighters in Official Saturn magazine To me they just looked like nicer MegaDrive games.

I didn't give a fuck about 2D games in the late 90s and nor did the market.

You must have read a different SSM to me then....

 

[RetroGamingUK]

See you can't help it and just proved what I said and we all know the issues with Doom and TR

BTW Independence Day is better on the Saturn so is Soviet Strike and the same is true for Madden 97/8 - Tiburon really worked magic on the Saturn
And I love how you left out Zero Divide, Duke 3D, Street Racer, Dead Or Alive, Hexxen, I can't possibly think why...

Doom and TR's issues must be highlighted, but Duke 3D on PlayStation being a lazy port with everything rendered in software, shh, we must be quiet about that one as we're really struggling to put together a list in Saturn's defence.

Zero Divide, that looked and played crap on both systems, but kudos for it daring to run a couple of polygons in the background, only took 3 years for someone to finally do it, surprised the Saturn didn't melt running it.

Hexen, another Saturn FPS that relies on 2D sprites for enemies, weapons and effects. The only time anyone attempted a 3D shooter on Saturn was Quake, and the use of 2D sprite weapons couldn't prevent the frame rate from ending up in the gutter whenever more than one enemy appeared. Thankfully the likes of Tenka and Quake 2 on PS1 proved fully 3D FPS games could be done on a 32-bit console without taking the CPU.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I'm going to give some credit where it's due here because, despite the bashing, I still have a soft spot for the old dog and this is one of my favourite games of all time...






...these are some mighty fine tarmac road textures, very smooth with no visible blockiness. It's up there with Ridge Racer Type 4 and I'm not sure how they did it.

No VPD2 shenanigans like Pai's lovely floor on Virtua Fighter 2, this is smooth textures on polygons.

 

[Alexios]

I mean, the 2D assets in games like Powerslave were 3D on PlayStation which lacks 2D hardware and even way simpler 3D than full polygon models with probably just one triangle for each enemy/character etc. so it should perform even better in those rather than worse/matching Saturn. Same for racers like Need for Speed, it's not just Road Rash. Again, nobody said Saturn is equal/more powerful, folks just pointed out plenty complex games where the differences were negligible or Saturn showed off games that were equal to PS offerings in their own way, or their performance was on par (including games that didn't perform amazing, like Tomb Raider, just as Syphon Filter and other hyped PS games didn't perform great but are still beloved), etc., trying to say o well that game uses VDP2 so it's not a polygon so it somehow doesn't count like the end resulting game/visuals don't matter and only what's happening in the background does so Saturn should have been further gimped by not utilizing its full capabilities (as most games didn't anyway since they were tuned to PS hardware) is quite silly. Now you point out one of the games mentioned as better on Saturn is a bad game like shit like Die Hard Trilogy and 4x4 and other worse examples you can think of (even when Saturn has similar way better games such as Virtua Cop 2 vs the Die Hard Trilogy shooter part) were must haves or something, lol. Like, Idk if shit like Thunderstrike/Hawk II used VDP2 like Gungriffon does for the Saturn version to match the PS but whether it did or didn't, it worked. What's next, there shouldn't have been other cool games like AMOK using voxels because it's another way for Saturn to have some cool well performing 3D gaming and everything should be polygons only, we also shouldn't acknowledge things like awesome sky and cloud layers in other games like Street Racer and MechWarrior 2 so it can be gimped to the max I guess, pretty visual results don't matter, polygons or bust!

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I mean, the 2D assets in games like Powerslave were 3D on PlayStation which lacks 2D hardware and even simpler 3D than full polygon models with probably just one triangle for each enemy/character etc. so it should perform even better in those rather than worse/matching Saturn. Same for racers like Need for Speed, it's not just Road Rash. Again, nobody said Saturn is equal/more powerful, folks just pointed out plenty games where the differences were negligible or Saturn showed off games that were equal to PS offerings in their own way, or their performance was on par (including games that didn't perform amazing, like Tomb Raider, just as Syphon Filter and other hyped PS games didn't perform great), etc., trying to say o well that game uses VDP2 so not a polygon so it doesn't count like the end resulting game/visuals don't matter and only what's happening in the background does so Saturn should have been further gimped by not utilizing its full capabilities (as most games didn't anyway since they were tuned to PS hardware) is quite silly. Now you point out one of the games mentioned is a bad game like shit like Die Hard Trilogy and 4x4 and other worse examples you can think of (even when Saturn has similar way better games such as Virtua Cop 2 vs the Die Hard Trilogy shooter part) were must haves or something, lol.

Die Hard Trilogy doesn't seem to make any use of VDP2, you can tell by the way the quads get darker in the distance on Level 1. The airport scene has quite a lot going on in terms of true 3D and coupled with the glass it just looks a complete dog's dinner on Saturn.






Hardcore 4x4 the issue was that it was geometrically intensive, lots of complex road bumps surrounding by steep ridges, the kind of game PS1 was made for and Saturn wasn't, very little use for VDP2 here.




All these cars close to the camera and all the terrain topography, VDP1 is just getting murdered here and there's nothing the devs can do to stop it…

 

[Alexios]

No clue why you think that's a meaningful reply to anything you quoted but you do you. Those games are shit on both systems so if Zero Divide (which is actually a very competent fighting game, better than Toshinden series previously shown as example of PS pushing ahead early on, also Idk why you think it's the only 3D fighter with background polygons on Saturn either, when it has Virtual On which is more 3D than most and yeah there are arenas with slopes and other polygonal elements alongside fitting use of VDP2 bacdkgrounds and such) doesn't count then they don't either. Again, Saturn has a way better looking and playing and performing shooter than Trilogy's lightgun section (actually two, both VC and VC2) and Tomb Raider is also a better 3D action adventure than its third person shooter part. Not much fits a direct comparison with its driving section but it's also bad on both systems. And it has the better Die Hard game anyway.

Saturn has great textures in many more games than Sega Rally, plenty wonderful visuals in Panzer Dragoon Saga (though it can be uneven, some towns/characters and even the PC were pretty badly done imo, but most creatures are ace and there are so many cool effects and areas to explore and playable and viewable set pieces to experience), Die Hard Arcade and many more. And considering so many games had flat floors anyway then once again the use of VDP2 is not a negative not-polygons-so-it-doesn't-count but a positive for excellent quality floor/ground with megatexture style variety from end to end rather than repeating tiles, as in Grandia and other games. Again just like the terrain in Gungriffon has slopes and other 3D elements using polygons on top of the VDP2 for the flat parts and doesn't lack compared to the similar but fully polygonal terrain in Thunderstrike/Hawk II. And if devs cared a little bit there'd be much more use of VDP2 to enhance pretty much every game even if not originally tuned to Saturn, again like MechWarrior 2's (a rather random third party multiplatform game/port rather than some special tuned to Saturn deal) great sky effects that have nothing to do with polygons.

But again nobody says Saturn was better, just that it wasn't shit just because in certain games tuned for PS it had lesser results, just as PS had lesser results than others and even occasionally the Saturn, which has many games excellent and on par with the greats of the era despite its weaknesses and many of them with a super quick turn out from small Sega teams (ie Panzer Dragoon 1 to 2 improvements) or even small third party developers/porters like Lobotomy (Slavedriver), Tantalus (Manx TT), Lemon (AMOK), Caproduction (Bulk Slash), Quantum Factory (MechWarrior 2) and others showing you hardly needed years and years and AAA budgets not worth spending to achieve good results on it.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Doom and TR's issues must be highlighted, but Duke 3D on PlayStation being a lazy port with everything rendered in software, shh, we must be quiet about that one as we're really struggling to put together a list in Saturn's defence.

Zero Divide, that looked and played crap on both systems, but kudos for it daring to run a couple of polygons in the background, only took 3 years for someone to finally do it, surprised the Saturn didn't melt running it.

Hexen, another Saturn FPS that relies on 2D sprites for enemies, weapons and effects. The only time anyone attempted a 3D shooter on Saturn was Quake, and the use of 2D sprite weapons couldn't prevent the frame rate from ending up in the gutter whenever more than one enemy appeared. Thankfully the likes of Tenka and Quake 2 on PS1 proved fully 3D FPS games could be done on a 32-bit console without taking the CPU.

Doom on the Saturn is software rendered too, but shh we must be quiet about it, as we've got an agender. I've provided you with examples of 3D shooters with polygons on Saturn, but like usual you dismiss them and bang about how it's unfair to use them since they use VDP2

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Doom on the Saturn is software rendered too, but shh we must be quiet about it, as we've got an agender. I've provided you with examples of 3D shooters with polygons on Saturn, but like usual you dismiss them and bang about how it's unfair to use them since they use VDP2

No you provided FPS games with flat billboard enemies and guns, even in 1997 (Sega Flash 5) I thought Duke 3D looked horrible and dated.

Just something about that SNES style sprite scaling, bleh!

I've always been a graphics whore though, Sonic looking prettier than Mario World is the whole reason I got into Sega in the first place

 

[Team Andromeda]

No you provided FPS games with flat billboard enemies and guns, even in 1997 (Sega Flash 5) I thought Duke 3D looked horrible and dated.

Just something about that SNES style sprite scaling, bleh!

I've always been a graphics whore though, Sonic looking prettier than Mario World is the whole reason I got into Sega in the first place

I didn't use Duke, but this



3D polygon enemies in a FPS on Saturn, runs super smooth too. Go on, talk of the VDP2

 

[cireza]

ROM is slower than RAM but much faster than the CD.

Who said it had to be decompressed from the CD exactly ? No one. You store your handful of compressed pictures in RAM and decompress them on the fly. Doesn't need to be very fast as these are transitions, not real-time animations in a 60fps game. If it takes a few frames rather than one, it won't be an issue.

Again, I don't see how the PS1 could store and uncompress pictures from RAM but not the Saturn. This is pure fantasy. This has been done since the days of 8 bits gaming, from ROM, from RAM. With dedicated compression algorithms implement directly in the games. Not Rocket Science.

Resident Evil 1 and Deep Fear already hold several plans of the same rooms in memory and it wasn't an issue at all.

 

[Alexios]

Doom on the Saturn is software rendered too, but shh we must be quiet about it, as we've got an agender. I've provided you with examples of 3D shooters with polygons on Saturn, but like usual you dismiss them and bang about how it's unfair to use them since they use VDP2

Dude, nkfaro was praising Doom 64 as one of the best games of the era, best looking N64 game that still holds up among the best visuals of the era, etc., etc. (and others agreed), but now sprite enemies in an FPS are the devil just because of amazing Saturn games like Powerslave, lol. Of course in that thread which he made to praise the N64 he didn't dispute such opinions trashing the game, positive talk was welcome in all forms, we only froth against the Saturn software here

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I didn't use Duke, but this



3D polygon enemies in a FPS on Saturn, runs super smooth too. Go on, talk of the VDP2

It ticks boxes but it just looks meh, it hasn't got that nice lighting like Quake or Tenka that makes things pop.

Seriously I was very picky back then. I was put off the PS1 in 1996 after seeing F1 (I didn't like the lines on the tracks) and Tekken 2 (I didn't like the angular look) at a friend's.

Had they shown me Crash Bandicoot and WipEout 2097 instead I'd have probably bought a PlayStation instead of a Saturn with Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Dude was praising Doom 64 as one of the best games of the era, best looking N64 game that still holds up among the best visuals of the era, etc., etc., but now sprite enemies in an FPS are the devil just because of the amazing Saturn games like Powerslave, lmao.

Was I fuck, I've never once praised that game.

Keep projecting.

 

[diffusionx]

Who said it had to be decompressed from the CD exactly ? No one. You store your handful of compressed pictures in RAM and decompress them on the fly. Doesn't need to be very fast as these are transitions, not real-time animations in a 60fps game. If it takes a few frames rather than one, it won't be an issue.

Again, I don't see how the PS1 could store and uncompress pictures from RAM but not the Saturn. This is pure fantasy. This has been done since the days of 8 bits gaming, from ROM, from RAM. With dedicated compression algorithms implement directly in the games. Not Rocket Science.

Resident Evil 1 and Deep Fear already hold several plans of the same rooms in memory and it wasn't an issue at all.

Too bad you weren't on the dev team and could have just told them this lol

you could have saved the saturn

 

[cireza]

Too bad you weren't on the dev team and could have just told them this lol

you could have saved the saturn

For sure.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Dude, nkfaro was praising Doom 64 as one of the best games of the era, best looking N64 game that still holds up among the best visuals of the era, etc., etc. (and others agreed), but now sprite enemies in an FPS are the devil just because of amazing Saturn games like Powerslave, lol. Of course in that thread which he made to praise the N64 he didn't dispute such opinions trashing the game, positive talk was welcome in all forms, we only froth against the Saturn software here

Yep, the trolling is rife on here

It ticks boxes but it just looks meh, it hasn't got that nice lighting like Quake or Tenka that makes things pop.

Seriously I was very picky back then. I was put off the PS1 in 1996 after seeing F1 (I didn't like the lines on the tracks) and Tekken 2 (I didn't like the angular look) at a friend's.

Had they shown me Crash Bandicoot and WipEout 2097 instead I'd have probably bought a PlayStation instead of a Saturn with Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally.

Lighting now, Jesus Christ

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Lighting now, Jesus Christ

You just have a higher tolerance for ugly graphics and me being a bit shallow probably led to me missing out on some great games, that's the difference we're having here.

Neither of us is right or wrong, just different perspectives.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Again, I don't see how the PS1 could store and uncompress pictures from RAM but not the Saturn. This is pure fantasy. This has been done since the days of 8 bits gaming, from ROM, from RAM. With dedicated compression algorithms implement directly in the games. Not Rocket Science.

Resident Evil 1 and Deep Fear already hold several plans of the same rooms in memory and it wasn't an issue at all.

So did the Crow, but the less said about that the better. At the end of the day in the same way Capcom got X-Men Vs Streetfighter on the PS1, they would have got RE2 on the Saturn with cutbacks
But Capcom couldn't have been more clear the Saturn version was dropped because of Dreamcast, and they didn't even need more memory

You just have a higher tolerance for ugly graphics and me being a bit shallow probably led to me missing out on some great games, that's the difference we're having here.

Neither of us is right or wrong, just different perspectives.

I had a PS1 mate, so spare on that score. Well it was my brothers PS, but he was busy falling in love and getting his girlfriend up the duff and so I enjoy his PS1 along with my Saturn.

 

[Crayon]

As a Saturn owner in 1997 you wouldn't believe how tired I got of seeing wall to wall coverage of Capcom and SNK's 2D fighters in Official Saturn magazine To me they just looked like nicer MegaDrive games.

I didn't give a fuck about 2D games in the late 90s and nor did the market.

Same here. I still appreciated a 2d game that was showing some amount of next-gen punch but 3d was so much more exciting and experimental. A 2d game had to be seriously good to get my attention. I was interested in 3d gameplay most, but even 3d graphics in a 2d platformer was much more exciting for me.

But if it came down to a 2d game using 3d graphics, or a 3d game leaning heavily on scaled sprites, I would take the one with the 3d gameplay and sprites.

As nice as those fighting games, or d&d, or the space shooters, etc were, they did not go far enough to advance things. Bigger sprites with more colors and more frames were not enough. I wish sega could have had some more vision of how to leverage the saturn's capabilities more and set an example.

 

[Crayon]

Me getting ready before going in this thread:

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

As a Saturn owner in 1997 you wouldn't believe how tired I got of seeing wall to wall coverage of Capcom and SNK's 2D fighters in Official Saturn magazine To me they just looked like nicer MegaDrive games.

I didn't give a fuck about 2D games in the late 90s and nor did the market.

Quoted for emphasis. And let's face it, fighting games kinda peaked in relevance with Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Kombat. The 3D fighters had some novelty and a mild renaissance but, a bunch of 2D games and like 8 variants of fucking Virtua Fighter does not a competitive lineup make.

Saturn fans opening up a fresh issue of DieHard GameFan, EGM, or GamePro in 1997:

 

[Crayon]

Quoted for emphasis. And let's face it, fighting games kinda peaked in relevance with Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Kombat. The 3D fighters had some novelty and a mild renaissance but, a bunch of 2D games and like 8 variants of fucking Virtua Fighter does not a competitive lineup make.

Saturn fans opening up a fresh issue of DieHard GameFan, EGM, or GamePro in 1997:

Fighters were still kicking into to 2000's. 2d ones not so much, though. Street Fighter fatigue was setting in when super turbo hit arcades and mortal kombat 3 didn't have the buzz that 2 did. 2D really was out of fashion and for good reason, imo. PC's were quite expensive and the rest of us had been stuck in flatland all our lives.