Support NeoGAF

[StueyDuck]

Australia aren't part of NATO, we've had a free trade agreement with the US which we signed 20 years ago and have a trade deficit with US ever since. Have also backed US actions in Iran and provided defensive support to Gulf states and intelligence.

We still copped tariffs to 'run up
The score' on us and now included on this latest shit list.

I've always seen the US as a reliable ally to Australia (and vice versa) but recent rhetoric and actions from Trump towards us during this term so far hasn't exactly strengthened those feelings.

see, that's a genuine criticism towards fair play.

 

[LyricalShrike]

VAT is literally an added tax... whether it's "local" or not, the point is that imported product is still be subjected to VAT where in return it isn't. The US is tricky because states all do their own thing but goods coming in from outside the US aren't being taxed.

whether you like it or not its an "Added tax" and acts much in the same way as a tariff does when it comes to foreign imports.



It's not a literal tariff, i thought that was obivous.

Its not a tariff in the figurative sense either. Its just sales tax with an audit trail. Total tax collected is the same. Sales tax, like in the US, is only paid by end consumers. VAT is charged at every step where value is added to a good whether for business or individual purposes(The V stands for Value which you missed). It prevents false invoicing or cash deals to dodge sales tax since there will be a gap in the tax chain at some point. VAT doesn't put US exporters at a disadvantage at all. They get the VAT paid back when its sold, they destroy the item, or remove it from the VAT jurisdiction. Bonded warehouses also exist to allow storage of goods without incurring VAT.

 

[StueyDuck]

Its not a tariff in the figurative sense either. Its just sales tax with an audit trail. Total tax collected is the same. Sales tax, like in the US, is only paid by end consumers. VAT is charged at every step where value is added to a good whether for business or individual purposes(The V stands for Value which you missed). It prevents false invoicing or cash deals to dodge sales tax since there will be a gap in the tax chain at some point. VAT doesn't put US exporters at a disadvantage at all. They get the VAT paid back when its sold, they destroy the item, or remove it from the VAT jurisdiction. Bonded warehouses also exist to allow storage of goods without incurring VAT.

It's still a tax, my man. There is no such thing as "a good tax". It's literally just taking money because they can.

US exporters just have learnt to work the system; it's actually the EU people who are at a disadvantage, which in turn make US products sell less because they cost more.

Again, it's not a literal tariff, but it affects trade in the same way, where goods must now be more expensive and sell less or remain cheap and not make the returns needed.

Why do you think a Console in the US is Cheaper than most of the EU? Most countries even?

 

[Wildebeest]

Australia aren't part of NATO, we've had a free trade agreement with the US which we signed 20 years ago and have a trade deficit with US ever since. Have also backed US actions in Iran and provided defensive support to Gulf states and intelligence.

We still copped tariffs to 'run up
The score' on us and now included on this latest shit list.

I've always seen the US as a reliable ally to Australia (and vice versa) but recent rhetoric and actions from Trump towards us during this term so far hasn't exactly strengthened those feelings.

NATO membership has nothing to do with this because NATO is a defensive alliance and this isn't a defensive action. There was a question about the attack at Cyprus but that appeared to be a limited Hezbollah action and wasn't something that NATO was needed to deal with. So Australia not being part of NATO is equally irrelevant to France being part of it.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

NATO membership has nothing to do with this because NATO is a defensive alliance and this isn't a defensive action. There was a question about the attack at Cyprus but that appeared to be a limited Hezbollah action and wasn't something that NATO was needed to deal with. So Australia not being part of NATO is equally irrelevant to France being part of it.

I was commenting in context of previous posts regarding Trumps tweet and NATO.

 

[Wildebeest]

I was commenting in context of previous posts regarding Trumps tweet and NATO.

I just wanted to clear this up because I think some people might read it and not be aware. Also Australia is a Five Eyes member which is, in many ways, a closer military alliance with the USA than NATO.

 

[Darius87]

Well, if he pulls out of NATO, I hope the EU won't be crying, since they are so anti-everything the US does.

Also, defending isn't "being dragged into the war"... Trump isn't asking EU members to bomb Iran, he's asking them to protect global affairs, which by golly do EU leaders love having big taxpayer-funded parties and security councils meetings to always talk about.

Again, I applaud France for looking out for civilians. The rest of the EU can stop whinging; they barely did anything when it was right on their doorstep with Ukraine.

nato is defensive alliance there nothing to defend apart bases which what France is doing ships won't go through straight if there's risk being attacked not because there's no one to guard them, even that would be the case you can't guard that many ships like it was before war, now ensurance is the problem, I think you're generalizing to much Europe isn't anti everything us does they support removal of Iran regime, the problem is that Trump is incompetent at anything he does and threatens Eu states for no reason and he's pro Russia witch doesn't makes sense unless he's compromised.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

I just wanted to clear this up because I'm think some people might read it and not be aware. Also Australia is a Five Eyes member which is, in many ways, a closer military alliance with the USA than NATO.

Certainly doesn't feel that way at the moment.

 

[Madserb2023]

nato is defensive alliance there nothing to defend apart bases which what France is doing ships won't go through straight if there's risk being attacked not because there's no one to guard them, even that would be the case you can't guard that many ships like it was before war, now ensurance is the problem, I think you're generalizing to much Europe isn't anti everything us does they support removal of Iran regime, the problem is that Trump is incompetent at anything he does and threatens Eu states for no reason and he's pro Russia witch doesn't makes sense unless he's compromised.

I am pretty sure Nato bombed Serbia without being attacked after the massacre. Whether you agree or not that they should have done it is one thing, but Nato is a military alliance first. Seen thousands of comments about wanting European Nato to attack Russia from the same people saying it shouldn't get involved in Iran as it hasn't been directly attacked. I just think European Nato is pathetic. Couldn't help in Iran anyway. As we have seen with Russia with the constant debate about whether Europe combined could send 30,000 peace keeping troops to Ukraine. Serbia just couldn't fight back like Iran.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

I remember being in Seattle when people were demonstrating against Obama and saying they would impeach him. I'm sure that every president is demonstrated against in different parts of the country at different times for various actions people don't agree with.

With Trump, however, I think he actually will be out of office before his term is up. The guy is obviously in significant decline and not at all fit for the job. This war might be the catalyst to get things moving.

 

[Wildebeest]

I am pretty sure Nato bombed Serbia without being attacked after the massacre. Whether you agree or not that they should have done it is one thing, but Nato is a military alliance first. Seen thousands of comments about wanting European Nato to attack Russia from the same people saying it shouldn't get involved in Iran as it hasn't been directly attacked. I just think European Nato is pathetic. Couldn't help in Iran anyway. As we have seen with Russia with the constant debate about whether Europe combined could send 30,000 peace keeping troops to Ukraine. Serbia just couldn't fight back like Iran.

Libya is more comparable to current events than Serbia. Serbia turned out relatively well but Libya was a shit show. In both cases NATO was not activated as a military alliance but as a framework for cooperation that a "coalition of the willing" could use to work together.

 

[winjer]

 

[LyricalShrike]

It's still a tax, my man. There is no such thing as "a good tax". It's literally just taking money because they can.

US exporters just have learnt to work the system; it's actually the EU people who are at a disadvantage, which in turn make US products sell less because they cost more.

Again, it's not a literal tariff, but it affects trade in the same way, where goods must now be more expensive and sell less or remain cheap and not make the returns needed.

Why do you think a Console in the US is Cheaper than most of the EU? Most countries even?

US products only cost more than local products under a VAT system if the cost to produce them is more than local equivalent. Your opinions on tax matter to me less than you understanding why VAT isn't really a tariff.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

 

[Rentahamster]

It's still a tax, my man. There is no such thing as "a good tax". It's literally just taking money because they can.

You're moving the goalposts from criticisms of specifically import taxes to criticisms of taxes in general.

 

[BlackTron]

Or

The US pays for majority of nato spending, maybe europe can step up to the game instead of literally fighting the US at every point and become bed fellows with radical Islam and china

The EU cant keep crying when Trump wants to pull out of NATO, threatening war when he says something stupid about greenland (literally going as far as mobilizing troops) but when it comes to protecting the hormuz straight now they use "tariffs" as an excuse.

The "stupid thing that we he said" was threatening to invade Greenland. Our allies "threat" was sending tripwire forces to Greenland just in case we actually tried to do it. Imagine being offended and expecting some sort of compensation for asserting you will fight if you try to take my territory. You can't make this shit up. It looks like standing up to him is why we didn't do it, and thank God. I don't want it to take THAT many generations to rebuild trust in the US. Maybe we can get it down to just one whole gen!

It was not just an off the cuff remark that faded with pushback. He doubled and tripled down and then threatened economic damage against any country who disagreed with him on it. You can't say "Trump strong man" one day, and "oh he just say stupid thing why take serious" the next.

Yes allies should have your back. That is not how we are treating them. We could not even keep our commitment to protect Ukraine if they gave their nukes up.

Becoming bedfellows with Islam/China is not good but you're using that as some sort of excuse/whataboutism for our own poor 4D chess moves and I just don't see the correlation.

Iran needed our help and I'm glad we went, but I'm not happy we entered a war in the midst of burned bridges and bungled foreign policy. He's treating allies the same way he treats every person, including his domestic allies. An abusive relationship where you get blamed for the reasons they had to abuse you to begin with.

 

[winjer]

Trump betrayed EU allies by denying support to Ukraine and cutting off Intel sharing.
Threatens to invade one of EU's members.
Constantly insults EU leaders.
Starts a war without consulting it's NATO allies.
A war that increases prices, harming it's EU and Asian allies, while benefiting Russia.
And now expects the EU to clean up after the fuck up he made.
This guy is a complete moron. Never in US history have we seen a a POTUS fuck up this badly in international relations.
As much as I want the Iranian Islamic regime gone, the way Trump has gone about it is a complete mess.

 

[Madserb2023]

I think you are understating Europe's move towards China. I say this as a Brit that far too much of our critical infrastructure has been handed over to China. Not only do you not have any kind of moral High ground. Not only do they threaten to invade Taiwan every year, but they are actively claiming and annexing islands belonging to the Philippines etc. You can not claim to be concerned about sovereignty. Also this move towards China preceded Trump's let alone Greenland as to why they were against Trump's position on China.

 

[BlackTron]

Trump betrayed EU allies by denying support to Ukraine and cutting off Intel sharing.
Threatens to invade one of EU's members.
Constantly insults EU leaders.
Starts a war without consulting it's NATO allies.

ok well not my fault ur just not smart enuff 2 see 4D chess bro lol

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

The Trump admin has spent the last year and a half shaking down its allies and pillorying multilateralism. It then went to war in Iran without involving its traditional allies. Expecting Europe or others to contribute is not a serious opinion. This is all political theatre for his ongoing side quest to convince the American public to pull out of NATO.

 

[Bojji]

The military could handle it. The US domestic tolerance for casualties could not.

President Trump's position seems to be that Iran using or threatening terrorist attacks against civilian vessels of other nations to prevent them using the strait is not really -and certainly not exclusively- the US' problem to solve.


I agree he'll use it, though I think it's more about exposing that America's allies cannot be relied upon and therefore should not be relied upon. I don't think it's motivated by a desire to leave NATO per se, but a desire to have that weakness be known and accounted for now, rather than for the US to one day end up in a real war and only come to understand that weakness when it's too late to address.

Were those ships being attacked before America started this war?

I cant take a video seriously when its titled Mussolini 2.0, and has the words fascism is back.

I can only assume everyone in the video is clinically retarded.

Title is a clickbait but video itself is good and informative, Sarah Paine is amazing.

 

[Brucey]

The EU has had literal tariffs on US goods anyway, what do you think VAT is.

VAT is the equivalent of US sales tax, except applying countrywide versus differing from state to state (and county to county). It applies to both domestic and imported goods assuming its not a VAT exempt category.

If you are in the USA and import something from Europe, VAT isnt applied.

However the US does apply a 15% tariff on that import.

 

[EviLore]

Ukraine sent 200 drone warfare experts to help.

 

[winjer]

ok well not my fault ur just not smart enuff 2 see 4D chess bro lol

Quote of the day out of the EU Council was: "He's asking us to buy tickets for the Titanic after it's already started sinking"

 

[Sonik]

Apparently Vox's hitpiece against Joe Kent was authored by former president of Brown Students for Israel, Zack Beauchamp




Reminder that Joe Kent is a true American hero that served 20 years, had 11 deployments, countless commendations including 6 bronze stars and lost his wife in combat when she was fighting ISIS. She left behind him and their 2 children

This is the guy these soulless fucks are trying to smear now

 

[Jaybe]

Another one bites the dust… Iran's minister of intelligence has been killed. That's 3 big kills in 2 days.

 

[Wildebeest]

The UK is sending drones to Strait of Hormuz. The timing of the situation is terrible though as the Royal Navy has been caught in between decommissioning old minesweeper ships and the solution just not being fully ready. Not really clear that mines will be used at all, however, since Iran seems to want ships ran by "allies" like China and India to get through.

 

[Brucey]

Why do you think a Console in the US is Cheaper than most of the EU? Most countries even?

If you compare price of a console in the US versus the UK for example, the US price excludes local sales tax, while the UK price includes VAT of 20%.

 

[Bojji]

If you compare price of a console in the US versus the UK for example, the US price excludes local sales tax, while the UK price includes VAT of 20%.

You still have to pay that tax when you buy stuff.

 

[Brucey]

You still have to pay that tax when you buy stuff.

Yes but its unlikely that percentage would be used in a price comparison to another country.

 

[Bojji]

Yes but its unlikely that percentage would be used in a price comparison to another country.

In Europe all prices have to be final for consumer, that's why sales tax/vat is included.

In USA they don't include sales tax for whatever reason (so price isn't final).

 

[jason10mm]

I don't know who that guy is, but I like the way he writes.

 

[jason10mm]

The Trump admin has spent the last year and a half shaking down its allies and pillorying multilateralism. It then went to war in Iran without involving its traditional allies. Expecting Europe or others to contribute is not a serious opinion. This is all political theatre for his ongoing side quest to convince the American public to pull out of NATO.

It's not a bad tactic either. This strait of Hormuz stuff SIGNIFICANTLY impacts the EU more than the US, and it's right in their own backyard. The US conducts ops ALL OVER the Americas, has for years and years, and never really asks the EU to help because how/why would they? But NATOs raison d'entre doesn't really exist anymore, Russia isn't the USSR and has only a tiny fraction of the offensive strike capability, so NATO being deprioritized in the US's budget is a reasonable move. The EU is sabotaging itself with a lot of their policies, policies they can afford because they don't have a 'proper' amount of defense spending, so they need a wake up call that the gravy train is shifting and they need to get ready. Right now in the ball game of world conflict, almost all the players on the field are American, while the rest of NATO act as the waterboys, cheerleaders, and assistant coaches. The EU needs to start developing some players of their own.

 

[cripterion]

Trump betrayed EU allies by denying support to Ukraine and cutting off Intel sharing.
Threatens to invade one of EU's members.
Constantly insults EU leaders.
Starts a war without consulting it's NATO allies.
A war that increases prices, harming it's EU and Asian allies, while benefiting Russia.
And now expects the EU to clean up after the fuck up he made.
This guy is a complete moron. Never in US history have we seen a a POTUS fuck up this badly in international relations.
As much as I want the Iranian Islamic regime gone, the way Trump has gone about it is a complete mess.

He's already spinning this as it was a test of loyalty and that deep down he doesn't need help . American's are something else electing someone that's clearly senile.

 

[EviLore]

We…don't need Europe's help. It does say a lot to be rejected though.

 

[Forsete]

The UK is sending drones to Strait of Hormuz. The timing of the situation is terrible though as the Royal Navy has been caught in between decommissioning old minesweeper ships and the solution just not being fully ready. Not really clear that mines will be used at all, however, since Iran seems to want ships ran by "allies" like China and India to get through.

I read someplace where an "expert" said the mines will probably already deployed and could be remote controlled.

Who knows if that is true or not.

I know our own mine fields (the static ones) during the Cold War were remote controlled.

I lived right next to one not even knowing about it.

 

[DrFigs]

I don't know who that guy is, but I like the way he writes.

It definitely looks silly considering it was posted on Twitter. The juxtaposition between the quality of the prose and the level of midwit thinking is also silly: "come join this war you we didn't bother to consult you about, or I'll call you a coward" isn't a persuasive call to arms to me personally. Nor is the idea that Europe has to join this war for their economic well being, when their economic well being wasn't in jeopardy at all until we started this war in the first place.

 

[longrainwater]

Apparently Vox's hitpiece against Joe Kent was authored by former president of Brown Students for Israel, Zack Beauchamp




Reminder that Joe Kent is a true American hero that served 20 years, had 11 deployments, countless commendations including 6 bronze stars and lost his wife in combat when she was fighting ISIS. She left behind him and their 2 children

This is the guy these soulless fucks are trying to smear now

Cool, I'll read more Vox then. Sounds like they're hiring intelligent people. Btw Joe Kent's wife writes for Max Blumenthal (Grayzone, which despite aligning with their biases, produces such demonstrably false content that even Wikipedia won't touch it).

 

[winjer]

We…don't need Europe's help. It does say a lot to be rejected though.

This is the most damning thing about the incompetence of the Trump administration.
He inherited the strongest and most powerful set of alliances in human history. Not just with the EU, but also with several other countries around the globe.
Alliances where the USA was the leading partner, where it had a lot of power and weight, political, military and economic.
A set of alliances that the USA used many times to it's advantage.
Yet he thew it all away, by betraying it's own allies and spitting on their faces, over and over again.
Had this war with Iran been made by any previous POTUS, ones who had not spit on their allies faces, and there would be a big line of allies ready to help out.

 

[Critical Hit]

Had this war with Iran been made by any previous POTUS, ones who had not spit on their allies faces, and there would be a big line of allies ready to help out.

Given the current number of muslims in Europe, that's highly doubtful. I'm not sure it's really about Trump, rather than the fear of local "citizens."

 

[winjer]

Given the current number of muslims in Europe, that's highly doubtful. I'm not sure it's really about Trump, rather than the fear of local "citizens."

That is nonsense. They are still a very small minority with little weight.
And even among most Muslims, they see Iran as a threat. Only the Palestinians see Iran as an ally.

 

[Critical Hit]

That is nonsense. They are still a very small minority with little weight.

You don't need much to drive a lorry through a crowd.

 

[winjer]

You don't need much to drive a lorry through a crowd.

But that doesn't influence politicians to join a war.
It does the opposite, it reinforces the opposition to the entry of new Muslim migrants.

 

[Critical Hit]

But that doesn't influence politicians to join a war.
It does the opposite, it reinforces the opposition to the entry of new Muslim migrants.

Does the increased likelihood of new terrorist attacks not factor into the decision? I have my doubts about that.
The issue isn't new immigrants, but those who are already here, and the british opposition doesn't seem to be helping much, either https://www.neogaf.com/threads/groo...he-uk-victims-and-investigators-warn.1445075/

 

[winjer]

Does the increased likelihood of new terrorist attacks not factor into the decision? I have my doubts about that.
The issue isn't new immigrants, but those who are already here, and the british opposition doesn't seem to be helping much, either https://www.neogaf.com/threads/groo...he-uk-victims-and-investigators-warn.1445075/

It does. One of the reasons why the EU is concerned about the war in Iran, is that it will trigger another mass of migrants, trying to enter Europe.
Similar to what happened with the Syrian war.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

We…don't need Europe's help. It does say a lot to be rejected though.

It is hilarious that europeans think that USA needs american help. Trump did not ask for help with bombings, or destroying the regime or whatever. Yet somehow europeans turned it into - "we are some mighty force and USA needs our help".

But that doesn't influence politicians to join a war.

It does. Like local elections in Minnesota or for example in UK - a bunch of elections were literally decided by the ethnic voting. And in Europe you literally have green/red alliance gaining power too, forcing established older and some centrist parties to cater to islamic votes due to coalition governments. Every islamic vote is basically left leaning so you have to appeal them if you are trying to maintain the power.

 

[adamsapple]

Had this war with Iran been made by any previous POTUS, ones who had not spit on their allies faces, and there would be a big line of allies ready to help out.

I think you've said it pretty accurately, if nothing else at least the UK would have been there along with the US. They've always been there before.

 

[Bojji]

It is hilarious that europeans think that USA needs american help. Trump did not ask for help with bombings, or destroying the regime or whatever. Yet somehow europeans turned it into - "we are some mighty force and USA needs our help".

Anyone said that? They just don't want to take part in this (America is asking for help now but before the war they didn't consult this with anybody).

And who can blame them after all the shit Trump said and did last year and early this year. When you treat your friends and allies like scum, don't be surprised that they won't be willing to help you. Like winjer said, any other POTUS would get international support.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

It is hilarious that europeans think that USA needs american help. Trump did not ask for help with bombings, or destroying the regime or whatever. Yet somehow europeans turned it into - "we are some mighty force and USA needs our help".


It does. Like local elections in Minnesota or for example in UK - a bunch of elections were literally decided by the ethnic voting. And in Europe you literally have green/red alliance gaining power too, forcing established older and some centrist parties to cater to islamic votes due to coalition governments. Every islamic vote is basically left leaning so you have to appeal them if you are trying to maintain the power.

Look, you can feel like you hate Iran and want the regime toppled and also see problems with the current approach to the war.

Trump asked other countries to help, and they said no, because the US didn't involve anyone in any of the planning or decision making, and just acted with Israel. They stirred shit up and made a mess and then asked for help. Then, Trump said, well fine, we don't need your help.

Trump talks a lot of shit. If you want Canada and European countries to help, don't treat them like enemies, publicly insult them, and, for some, don't threaten to invade them. If you don't want or need help, don't ask for it. If you ask for it, maybe just call people up and start talking and don't go to twitter and talk more shit.

Serious things should probably be dealt with professionally, and so they should just start acting more professional and not like a bunch of drunken assholes in a bar.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Are the Americans in this thread that oblivious to how negatively received Trumps foreign policy towards its allies has been?