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[TheAtomicPile]

The US has been fighting Hezbollah for over 40 years, any estimates on when it's mission accomplished?

Well I see a few options:

1. Give up and let them shell Israel without consequence.
2. Ramp up to full-scale war and constantly be accused of genocide.
3. Keep things as-is, responding to threats and attacks ad hoc, and only sometimes get accused of genocide.

Which one would you choose?

 

[Sonik]

 

[Smiggs]

The US has been fighting Hezbollah for over 40 years, any estimates on when it's mission accomplished?

Tonight, at 9pm EST is my guess.

 

[thefool]

I think you'll find it's Iran attacking the shipping.

It's remarkable how terrorists sympathizers keep forgetting this part.

And gas is high because you're most likely paying an absurd amount of taxes to pay stupid carbon laws and the usual parasites stealing public money.

 

[Jaybe]

Another dead Hezbollah leader

 

[adamsapple]

It's remarkable how terrorists sympathizers keep forgetting this part.

And gas is high because you're most likely paying an absurd amount of taxes to pay stupid carbon laws and the usual parasites stealing public money.

Carbon laws didn't increase gas from $2.70 to $4.10 in a month's time.

And has already been pointed out earlier, Iran didn't just attack for the love of the game, they have business going through the strait like so many other countries.

 

[thefool]

Carbon laws didn't increase gas from $2.70 to $4.10 in a month's time.

It increased because of the war, it's high because of taxes.

I filled my car today. 54% was taxes.

 

[adamsapple]

It increased because of the war, it's high because of taxes.

I filled my car today. 54% was taxes.

I don't like being taxed for civil services I don't feel are being given properly either

But in the current moment, the sharp increase in gas price is for a clearly understood reason. That's all I'm saying.

 

[NickFire]

I don't like being taxed for civil services I don't feel are being given properly either

But in the current moment, the sharp increase in gas price is for a clearly understood reason. That's all I'm saying.

You're both right. The increase is because of the military operation. But on the other hand a lot of the people who are most angry about the increases were totally cool with Americans getting over charged for California's bizarre war against working people's ability to buy gas.

 

[Tams]

They weren't doing that before Trump attacked them.

It's obviously on them in the end but nothing happens in a vacuum.

And the US and Israel haven't attacked Iran for no reason. The UAE haven't said they are willing to force the Straight open for no reason. Most of the Middle East aren't pissed off at Iran for no reason.

 

[Tams]

So far their (USA+Israel) response made the situation much worse.

Why not attack terrorists groups instead?

They have. They keep popping up because guess what?

Iran have been funding and training them.

 

[adamsapple]

You're both right. The increase is because of the military operation. But on the other hand a lot of the people who are most angry about the increases were totally cool with Americans getting over charged for California's bizarre war against working people's ability to buy gas.

Fair enough.

Any time I see people post California gas rates, it blows my mind.

 

[thefool]

This was in March. Next time you complain about gas prices, be happy you're funding your failed socialized services.

 

[Bojji]

They have. They keep popping up because guess what?

Iran have been funding and training them.

And you think if USA leaves now, those groups (and Iran) will not just restart their operations after some time?

Many terrorists were funded by US allies like UAE in the past.

This was in March. Next time you complain about gas prices, be happy you're funding your failed socialized services.

If you cut the tax you lose billions in budget revenues. Poland few days ago changed VAT on gas from 23 to 8%. Of course this can only work temporary.

Oil price is the biggest reason why prices skyrocketed, taxes were the same before this war started.

 

[Ozriel]

It's funny seeing the posts acting like Iran has somehow won despite taking 20,000 or so direct strikes on targets and a whole level of its leadership wiped out, and the current leadership is only there because USA asked them to be on a no-kill list.

They've replaced the killed leaders.

Iran isn't winning, but the U.S. would have failed to achieve its strategic goals with the regime still in power, the IRGC hailed as heroes by militants and Iran left with its nuclear material and plenty incentive to go all the way with making nuclear weapons.

Incorrect. We ABSOLUTELY could reduce Iran to a largely unsurvivable state through bombing alone, but we are not "allowed" to use our full range of (non-nuclear) capabilities. While the government of Iran can attack whomever they want, HOWEVER they can, civilian casualties all excused, the US is held to an almost impossibly high standard of immense precision and ZERO collateral damage and not holding the country of Iran responsible for their own government and military actions. We could use their own tactics against them, or at least levy punishment for certain actions that would render Iran a largely non-viable place to live, but despite not having a viable military counterweight that could FORCE us to not do it, we are CHOOSING to restrain ourselves. It's an important distinction, however unlikely it is that the US would just take off the kid gloves and really go to war. Our kindness is what allows these things to continue to happen and the burden fall on others, not the Iranians causing it in the first place.

A bombing campaign of that level would see Iran also extract a price on the Gulf countries and Saudi Arabia that would set the entire region back significantly, send oil prices soaring for a long time and crater the world's economy.

Basically not wise. Every desalination plant, every major refinery and LNG plant in the region would be at risk.

 

[daffyduck]

So far their (USA+Israel) response made the situation much worse.

Why not attack terrorists groups instead?

IRGC *is* a terrorist group.

 

[Bojji]

IRGC *is* a terrorist group.

Yeah, but they are obviously on a different scale than few men in turbans with rocket launchers. They also run a country with 90m people.

 

[Haint]

My hot take seems to be an increasingly accurate recounting of events. A super alliance against Iran (if only just in show and words) was clearly the plan to get them to back down from terrorizing the strait and force a cease fire with deep concessions weeks ago. The Eurocucks defacto supporting Iran by closing military bases and airspace from the US after we sent 100's of billions to Ukraine wasn't just TDS words or politics, it was outright actions of betrayal. This pissed off not just Trump and his cronies, but likely large Bi-partisan portions of the US Govt and Military Complex, I actually think there's a good chance US will pull out of NATO after this. Odds of y'all being a Russian territory in 5 or 10 years went from 0% to as high as 50%.

Donald Trump has told The Telegraph he is strongly considering pulling the United States out of Nato after it failed to join his war on Iran. The US president labelled the alliance a "paper tiger" as he said removing America from the defence treaty was now "beyond reconsideration".
It is the strongest sign yet that the White House no longer regards Europe as a reliable defence partner following the rejection of Mr Trump's demand that allies send warships to reopen the Strait of Hormuz.
Mr Trump was asked if he would reconsider the US's membership of the alliance after the conflict. "Oh yes, I would say [it's] beyond reconsideration," he replied. "I was never swayed by Nato. I always knew they were a paper tiger, and Putin knows that too, by the way."
Nato partners have been reluctant to help reopen the strait, through which 20 per cent of the world's oil typically travels. Tehran has effectively closed the strait for weeks, sending global oil and gas prices spiralling while threatening a global recession.
Mr Trump added: "Beyond not being there, it was actually hard to believe. And I didn't do a big sale. I just said, 'Hey', you know, I didn't insist too much. I just think it should be automatic.
"We've been there automatically, including Ukraine. Ukraine wasn't our problem. It was a test, and we were there for them, and we would always have been there for them. They weren't there for us."
Singling out the UK, the US president rebuked Sir Keir Starmer for refusing to get involved in the American-Israeli war against Iran, suggesting the Royal Navy was not up for the task. "You don't even have a navy. You're too old and had aircraft carriers that didn't work," he said, referring to the state of Britain's fleet of warships.
Speaking on Fox News in the hours before the interview with Mr Trump, Mr Rubio said America would have to "re-examine" its Nato membership when the war in Iran came to an end. "I think there's no doubt, unfortunately, after this conflict is concluded, we are going to have to re-examine that relationship."
"If Nato is just about us defending Europe if they're attacked, but them denying us basing rights when we need them, that's not a very good arrangement. That's a hard one to stay engaged in."
Mr Trump told The Telegraph he was "glad" Mr Rubio made the comments.

 

[Forsete]

I think we need to coin a new diagnosis. EDS.
We really are the new Joe Biden.

 

[jason10mm]

A bombing campaign of that level would see Iran also extract a price on the Gulf countries and Saudi Arabia that would set the entire region back significantly, send oil prices soaring for a long time and crater the world's economy.

Basically not wise. Every desalination plant, every major refinery and LNG plant in the region would be at risk.

This illustrates my point. Iran is engaging in MAD (mutually assured destruction) which is not just a nuclear bomb scenario. So if Iran is willing to attack everyone around them and deprive the globe of vital energy, then its really only a matter of time before they do it, since they have a decades long history of being a bad actor in other ways.

Iran is like that shifty junky that keeps hanging out in your neighborhood. He does a lot of petty crime, makes everyone feel nervous and unsafe, brings in a lot of dangerous visitors buying drugs, threatens anyone who gets too close with a knife, and its only a matter of time before someone gets really hurt by him. So what do you do? Call in the police (US) who will have to use force, or try to take care of him yourselves?

Though I'm not sure Iran has the capability (anymore) of causing region wide massive damage, eroding that ability is a key goal of the current strikes.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

This illustrates my point. Iran is engaging in MAD (mutually assured destruction) which is not just a nuclear bomb scenario. So if Iran is willing to attack everyone around them and deprive the globe of vital energy, then its really only a matter of time before they do it, since they have a decades long history of being a bad actor in other ways.

Iran is like that shifty junky that keeps hanging out in your neighborhood. He does a lot of petty crime, makes everyone feel nervous and unsafe, brings in a lot of dangerous visitors buying drugs, threatens anyone who gets too close with a knife, and its only a matter of time before someone gets really hurt by him. So what do you do? Call in the police (US) who will have to use force, or try to take care of him yourselves?

Though I'm not sure Iran has the capability (anymore) of causing region wide massive damage, eroding that ability is a key goal of the current strikes.

At this point Iran is as threatening as Hezbollah in the region probably. It does not have real military anymore, cannot build missiles and such. Houthis are probably more dangerous.

 

[Sonik]

This illustrates my point. Iran is engaging in MAD (mutually assured destruction) which is not just a nuclear bomb scenario. So if Iran is willing to attack everyone around them and deprive the globe of vital energy, then its really only a matter of time before they do it, since they have a decades long history of being a bad actor in other ways.

Iran is like that shifty junky that keeps hanging out in your neighborhood. He does a lot of petty crime, makes everyone feel nervous and unsafe, brings in a lot of dangerous visitors buying drugs, threatens anyone who gets too close with a knife, and its only a matter of time before someone gets really hurt by him. So what do you do? Call in the police (US) who will have to use force, or try to take care of him yourselves?

Though I'm not sure Iran has the capability (anymore) of causing region wide massive damage, eroding that ability is a key goal of the current strikes.

Remind me again, who attacked Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen and Syria, has been droning the Middle East non-stop for more than a decade and invited a legit ISIS terrorist to the White House? It was Iran, right? Makes sense, that's why they're the ones making the region unstable

 

[jason10mm]

Remind me again, who attacked Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen and Syria, has been droning the Middle East non-stop for more than a decade and invited a legit ISIS terrorist to the White House? It was Iran, right? Makes sense, that's why they're the ones making the region unstable

No argument from me there. But now that the hornets nest hast been kicked, I burn them with fire, not let them sting me all over in some sort of "jolly good chaps, your turn now, it's all fair play, eh?" suicidal empathy move. These places have delusions of past grandeur, or engage in regressive HORRIBLE humans rights abuses in their savage backwardness. I would just wash my hands of it all and roll up the borders a bit, but one top dog seems, judging from history, to be a far more preferable state of affairs for humanity as a whole than a dozen smaller dogs fighting to see who is the alpha.

 

[Jaybe]

This is probably the tact you take when you know the USA is about to escalate even further

 

[Ozriel]

This illustrates my point. Iran is engaging in MAD (mutually assured destruction) which is not just a nuclear bomb scenario. So if Iran is willing to attack everyone around them and deprive the globe of vital energy, then its really only a matter of time before they do it, since they have a decades long history of being a bad actor in other ways.

I suspect the fear of someone else blowing up their entire export product in retaliation will keep them in check.

Though I'm not sure Iran has the capability (anymore) of causing region wide massive damage, eroding that ability is a key goal of the current strikes.

That's what we thought, but they're still firing missiles daily. Including the ones fired in reprisal.

At this point Iran is as threatening as Hezbollah in the region probably. It does not have real military anymore, cannot build missiles and such. Houthis are probably more dangerous.

It has a large standing army to deter invasion, and still seems to have a large stockpile of missiles and drones. I suspect they're continuing to build more in secret.

They're also still able to mine the strait

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

It has a large standing army to deter invasion, and still seems to have a large stockpile of missiles and drones. I suspect they're continuing to build more in secret.

Nah, the standing army does not mean much as they are unable to send the troops anywhere. It is only useful as a self defense but they don't have anything that can deploy them or provide even the air cover anymore. With missiles and drones, they are losing the ability to produce and replenish them - their stash is being bombed, their factories are being blown away. They can't magically produce the missiles and drones using djinns or magic spells either. They have been defanged to a level of just a terrorist group at best.

 

[Sonik]

No argument from me there. But now that the hornets nest hast been kicked, I burn them with fire, not let them sting me all over in some sort of "jolly good chaps, your turn now, it's all fair play, eh?" suicidal empathy move. These places have delusions of past grandeur, or engage in regressive HORRIBLE humans rights abuses in their savage backwardness. I would just wash my hands of it all and roll up the borders a bit, but one top dog seems, judging from history, to be a far more preferable state of affairs for humanity as a whole than a dozen smaller dogs fighting to see who is the alpha.

This excuse was also used to keep the US in Iraq and Afghanistan for more than a decade. So the neocons "kick the hornets nest" every few years, if that's how you want to call starting disastrous wars, and then people like you justify endless war with the rationale that since we're in it we must finish it. Which never finishes though and the terrorists the US funded to fight the regimes, turn into new regimes and then the US has to fight the new regimes with other terrorists and so on and so on. It's like a war comedy where the comically dumb protagonist never learns anything

 

[adamsapple]

This is probably the tact you take when you know the USA is about to escalate even further

Ok, let's proceed in this direction.

 

[BattleScar]

My hot take seems to be an increasingly accurate recounting of events. A super alliance against Iran (if only just in show and words) was clearly the plan to get them to back down from terrorizing the strait and force a cease fire with deep concessions weeks ago. The Eurocucks defacto supporting Iran by closing military bases and airspace from the US after we sent 100's of billions to Ukraine wasn't just TDS words or politics, it was outright actions of betrayal. This pissed off not just Trump and his cronies, but likely large Bi-partisan portions of the US Govt and Military Complex, I actually think there's a good chance US will pull out of NATO after this. Odds of y'all being a Russian territory in 5 or 10 years went from 0% to as high as 50%.

Eurocucks? Lmao
European states are allies, not vassals. If you want their aid in a situation like this, demanding it from them like they're your servants is fucking stupidity.
Maybe involve them in your strategy planning. Maybe allow them time to mobilise their militaries or ships. Maybe think about the consequences of a strike on the region. Maybe allow your ME allies in Qatar, UAE and Saudi to mobilise their air defences and protect their key strategic interests. Maybe send Mobile SAMs to their military and strategic interests if they don't have them. Maybe secure the strait, or at least have a plan of action for securing the strait.

If you want your friends to help you, treat them like your friends. Don't spend an entire year denigrating them, threaten to invade their sovereign territory and then start throwing a hissy fit, when they decide its not worth their trouble to come to your aid.

 

[jason10mm]

This excuse was also used to keep the US in Iraq and Afghanistan for more than a decade. So the neocons "kick the hornets nest" every few years, if that's how you want to call starting disastrous wars, and then people like you justify endless war with the rationale that since we're in it we must finish it. Which never finishes though and the terrorists the US funded to fight the regimes, turn into new regimes and then the US has to fight the new regimes with other terrorists and so on and so on. It's like a war comedy where the comically dumb protagonist never learns anything

Well, if folks used my method, then you'd only need to start one, demonstrate will to inevitable result, and then everyone else will play nice and cooperate.

Fundamentally the entire region is doomed because they are vapor locked into a radical ideology that is centuries in our past. We at least allow them to govern their own resources, I suspect if the US backed down and internalized, then China would show up and we all know how they react to any conflict. So it's kinda hard to imagine if the average person in the middle east would be better off living under the thumb of a dictator, having to deal with the somewhat schizophrenic US, or receiving the 'kindnesses' of the Chinese.

Sadly the US is now committed to ME intervention to try to control oil and the petrodollar for our own survival. It would take a decade or more of austerity and fiscal commitment to pay down our debt to the point where we could let the ME go, I think.

 

[Sonik]

Well, if folks used my method, then you'd only need to start one, demonstrate will to inevitable result, and then everyone else will play nice and cooperate.

Fundamentally the entire region is doomed because they are vapor locked into a radical ideology that is centuries in our past. We at least allow them to govern their own resources, I suspect if the US backed down and internalized, then China would show up and we all know how they react to any conflict. So it's kinda hard to imagine if the average person in the middle east would be better off living under the thumb of a dictator, having to deal with the somewhat schizophrenic US, or receiving the 'kindnesses' of the Chinese.

Sadly the US is now committed to ME intervention to try to control oil and the petrodollar for our own survival. It would take a decade or more of austerity and fiscal commitment to pay down our debt to the point where we could let the ME go, I think.

The region is doomed because someone has been bombing it non-stop for decades while often funding and arming terrorists or allying with Saudi fanatic Muslims who have been funding some of the worst terrorists in the region. Let's not forget that almost all 9/11 terrorists were Saudis too

My favorite story is Libya, that had free higher education for everyone, housing was a human right so every new married couple got a free house from the state, universal health care and so on. The US brought "democracy" to them and now the country has none of these but it does have a flourishing slave trade

 

[devutos]

My hot take seems to be an increasingly accurate recounting of events. A super alliance against Iran (if only just in show and words) was clearly the plan to get them to back down from terrorizing the strait and force a cease fire with deep concessions weeks ago. The Eurocucks defacto supporting Iran by closing military bases and airspace from the US after we sent 100's of billions to Ukraine wasn't just TDS words or politics, it was outright actions of betrayal. This pissed off not just Trump and his cronies, but likely large Bi-partisan portions of the US Govt and Military Complex, I actually think there's a good chance US will pull out of NATO after this. Odds of y'all being a Russian territory in 5 or 10 years went from 0% to as high as 50%.

I can assure you spent more time devising this nonsense in your mind than Trump did planning for anything about this war.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Well, if folks used my method, then you'd only need to start one, demonstrate will to inevitable result, and then everyone else will play nice and cooperate.

Is that the 'kill a few million and the rest will bend the knee' approach?

 

[jason10mm]

The region is doomed because someone has been bombing it non-stop for decades while often funding and arming terrorists or allying with Saudi fanatic Muslims who have been funding some of the worst terrorists in the region. Let's not forget that almost all 9/11 terrorists were Saudis too

My favorite story is Libya, that had free higher education for everyone, housing was a human right so every new married couple got a free house from the state, universal health care and so on. The US brought "democracy" to them and now the country has none of these but it does have a flourishing slave trade

Ah, yes, lets just hand wave away all the terrorism and stuff. Clear out all those weeds and sure, some roses in there

 

[Tams]

The region is doomed because someone has been bombing it non-stop for decades while often funding and arming terrorists or allying with Saudi fanatic Muslims who have been funding some of the worst terrorists in the region. Let's not forget that almost all 9/11 terrorists were Saudis too

My favorite story is Libya, that had free higher education for everyone, housing was a human right so every new married couple got a free house from the state, universal health care and so on. The US brought "democracy" to them and now the country has none of these but it does have a flourishing slave trade

That was not sustainable and they had a true megalomaniac as their leader, who also sponsored terrorism.

Now, was removing Gaddafi a good idea overall? Absolutely not. But don't go around espousing that it was some utopia as it absolutely was not.

 

[Ozriel]

My hot take seems to be an increasingly accurate recounting of events. A super alliance against Iran (if only just in show and words) was clearly the plan to get them to back down from terrorizing the strait and force a cease fire with deep concessions weeks ago. The Eurocucks defacto supporting Iran by closing military bases and airspace from the US after we sent 100's of billions to Ukraine wasn't just TDS words or politics, it was outright actions of betrayal. This pissed off not just Trump and his cronies, but likely large Bi-partisan portions of the US Govt and Military Complex, I actually think there's a good chance US will pull out of NATO after this. Odds of y'all being a Russian territory in 5 or 10 years went from 0% to as high as 50%.

NATO is supposed to be a defensive alliance. Allies not wanting to join in an offensive war that they weren't informed about is not a 'betrayal'.

Ukraine has already depleted Russia's Soviet era stockpile of tanks, APCs and artillery shells. The days of fearing waves of mechanized columns pouring out of Russia are long over. Russia is still stuck at 20% of Ukraine after 4 years of war…you'd have similar theaters of attritional war across multiple fronts in Europe. And the Iran war has shown the European powers - who have long range missiles - the benefits of destroying the industrial base of a belligerent power.

To put it plainly, the odds of nuclear armed or shielded countries being 'Russian territories' in 10 years is vanishingly small, even without the U.S.

Pulling the U.S. out of NATO would certainly weaken Europe and decades old defensive frameworks. But they'll adapt. And the aftermath will be vanishingly fewer allies for an increasingly isolated U.S. they might even be coaxed to align more with China.


But good of some of you to join Russian bots in amplifying anti-NATO rhetoric. Putin and Xi must be absolutely giddy with glee. Why worry about Iran when you're happy to hand your most implacable foes the best deal of their lifetimes?

 

[jason10mm]

Is that the 'kill a few million and the rest will bend the knee' approach?

Well, typically those places will kill a few million even if we leave them alone. The reason why they hate 'the West' is because shit is nice over here and it keeps inspiring some chunk of their oppressed citizens to rise up and try to make changes to be more like it so they gotta periodically purge them. So we have a choice. Ignore their internal "Struggles" and just buy their oil, or try to push and prod them to reform and be more like us...so we can buy their oil. Zoom out a few centuries in history and I think the more favorable outcome is obvious.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

The region is doomed because someone has been bombing it non-stop for decades while often funding and arming terrorists or allying with Saudi fanatic Muslims who have been funding some of the worst terrorists in the region. Let's not forget that almost all 9/11 terrorists were Saudis too

Like the region was just peace and rainbow before that. I swear some people think that the history started in 20th century or something. Nothing has changed except terrorists now can fly planes and launch missiles.

My favorite story is Libya, that had free higher education for everyone, housing was a human right so every new married couple got a free house from the state, universal health care and so on. The US brought "democracy" to them and now the country has none of these but it does have a flourishing slave trade

Well yeah, a lot of people also love fairy tales. It is like those tales about USSR and communism. Sure you can get an apartment, free education and free medical service. Much better than living in a wooden shack and using herbalism. Granted there is still a joke that soviet people are leaving the dentist with sweaty back due to soviet dentist services. The standards of living increased immensely when Lenin gave electricity to peasants too. No more candles people! Good old days.

 

[Sonik]

That was not sustainable and they had a true megalomaniac as their leader, who also sponsored terrorism.

Now, was removing Gaddafi a good idea overall? Absolutely not. But don't go around espousing that it was some utopia as it absolutely was not.

Gaddafi was the leader for 40 years, seems sustainable enough for me, and what I said about Libya's policies is easily verifiable, you can check it yourself

In which Libya do you think young men would turn to terrorism and Islamic extremism, one that had a relatively wealthy, stable society where marriage was subsidized by the state or modern Libya that has warlords still fighting each other and no future for young men?

 

[BattleScar]

Well, typically those places will kill a few million even if we leave them alone. The reason why they hate 'the West' is because shit is nice over here and it keeps inspiring some chunk of their oppressed citizens to rise up and try to make changes to be more like it so they gotta periodically purge them. So we have a choice. Ignore their internal "Struggles" and just buy their oil, or try to push and prod them to reform and be more like us...so we can buy their oil. Zoom out a few centuries in history and I think the more favorable outcome is obvious.

Thank god you don't have any geopolitical power. You view yourself as Thanos or something?

Conducting what would be the biggest genocide in the history of mankind, would not make people fall in line and bend the knee.
You would just end up breeding more contempt against you, and force the rest of the world to ally to ensure your downfall.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

Now, was removing Gaddafi a good idea overall? Absolutely not. But don't go around espousing that it was some utopia as it absolutely was not.

By the time Gaddafi was removed the country was in a worse state than Assad's Syria. Gaddafi wasn't overthrown at the peak of his popularity.

In which Libya do you think young men would turn to terrorism and Islamic extremism, one that had a relatively wealthy, stable society where marriage was subsidized by the state or modern Libya that has warlords still fighting each other and no future for young men?

Probably in the one that sends dissidents to prisons and kill them there. If not for ISIS, Syria was pretty good under Assad too

 

[Tams]

Gaddafi was the leader for 40 years, seems sustainable enough for me, and what I said about Libya's policies is easily verifiable, you can check it yourself

In which Libya do you think young men would turn to terrorism and Islamic extremism, one that had a relatively wealthy, stable society where marriage was subsidized by the state or modern Libya that has warlords still fighting each other and no future for young men?

I'll pay for you to go to Lockerbie. I won't be needing to arrange your return travel.

 

[Sonik]

By the time Gaddafi was removed the country was in a worse state than Assad's Syria. Gaddafi wasn't overthrown at the peak of his popularity.


Probably in the one that sends dissidents to prisons and kill them there. If not for ISIS, Syria was pretty good under Assad too

Both Syria and Libya were better off before, at least they weren't being lead by ISIS terrorists who, if my memory doesn't deceive me, even have videos out there of them beheading "infidels". That terrorist was in the White House too btw, clown world

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

Both Syria and Libya were better off before, at least they weren't being lead by ISIS terrorists who, if my memory doesn't deceive me, even have videos out there of them beheading "infidels". That terrorist was in the White House too btw, clown world

According to Assad, every dissident was an infidel. In those torture chambers they certainly did not drink tea or ate cookies.

What people are unable to understand that all those labels - aside religious onces - are meaningless. They are just labels. Current leader of Syria used to for ISIS, then switched side to Al Qaeda and then won the war. For the Ottoman Empire the arabs were a bunch of terrorist rebels too. For UK - USA colonies were too. Hell the whole Iran is run by a radical religious sect yet they were somehow respectable people with embassies, foreign ambassadors and such.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

I don't think going into a war expecting a "super alliance" to back you up after the spending the last year denigrating every member of said proposed alliance and then not even bothering to tell them you're going to war is the master plan some people think it is. Dubyas war in Iraq was unpopular but at least he engaged in diplomacy and found his allies before going to war.

 

[Haint]

NATO is supposed to be a defensive alliance. Allies not wanting to join in an offensive war that they weren't informed about is not a 'betrayal'.

Ukraine has already depleted Russia's Soviet era stockpile of tanks, APCs and artillery shells. The days of fearing waves of mechanized columns pouring out of Russia are long over. Russia is still stuck at 20% of Ukraine after 4 years of war…you'd have similar theaters of attritional war across multiple fronts in Europe. And the Iran war has shown the European powers - who have long range missiles - the benefits of destroying the industrial base of a belligerent power.

To put it plainly, the odds of nuclear armed or shielded countries being 'Russian territories' in 10 years is vanishingly small, even without the U.S.

Pulling the U.S. out of NATO would certainly weaken Europe and decades old defensive frameworks. But they'll adapt. And the aftermath will be vanishingly fewer allies for an increasingly isolated U.S. they might even be coaxed to align more with China.

But good of some of you to join Russian bots in amplifying anti-NATO rhetoric. Putin and Xi must be absolutely giddy with glee. Why worry about Iran when you're happy to hand your most implacable foes the best deal of their lifetimes?

Ukraine is not in NATO, so who are we defending exactly in this supposed defensive only alliance as you call it? Why is Russia invading Ukraine an existential threat to Europe if Russia is simultaneously a vanishingly small insignificant threat to Europe? How do you think Ukraine would be fairing without the hundreds of billion in US weapons and invaluable intelligence apparatus?

Eurocucks? Lmao
European states are allies, not vassals. If you want their aid in a situation like this, demanding it from them like they're your servants is fucking stupidity.
Maybe involve them in your strategy planning. Maybe allow them time to mobilise their militaries or ships. Maybe think about the consequences of a strike on the region. Maybe allow your ME allies in Qatar, UAE and Saudi to mobilise their air defences and protect their key strategic interests. Maybe send Mobile SAMs to their military and strategic interests if they don't have them. Maybe secure the strait, or at least have a plan of action for securing the strait.

If you want your friends to help you, treat them like your friends. Don't spend an entire year denigrating them, threaten to invade their sovereign territory and then start throwing a hissy fit, when they decide its not worth their trouble to come to your aid.

Yes lets tell 10,000's of thousands of politicians, aids, and military personnel in a dozens countries about our surprise attack that is actually real and not a Trump bluff negotiation tactic everyone thinks it is. The oil calls and put volumes alone would signal the exact day. A terrorist country mind you, that everyone agrees someone needs to do something about.

 

[BattleScar]

Yes lets tell 10,000's of thousands of politicians, aids, and military personnel in a dozens countries about our surprise attack that is actually real and not a Trump bluff negotiation tactic everyone thinks it is. A terrorist country mind you, that everyone agrees someone needs to do something about.

Right because joint covert operations have never happened before.
And why would you need this to be covert? You know full well that chopping off the head of a hydra does nothing. Killing the leader didn't stop the Iranian Regime from launching missiles and holding the strait to hostage. Preparation is essential for war. And if you want your allies to help you, they need to prepare too.

 

[Haint]

Right because joint covert operations have never happened before.
And why would you need this to be covert? You know full well that chopping off the head of a hydra does nothing. Killing the leader didn't stop the Iranian Regime from launching missiles and holding the strait to hostage. Preparation is essential for war. And if you want your allies to help you, they need to prepare too.

Trump might as well have texted the ayatolla the date and locations himself so they'd have plenty of time to bring in additional defensive equipment from Russia and China. You can't hold months long dozen country tribunals on a surprise attack everyone thinks is a fake out with bureaucrat allies who will cut off their nose to spite their face.

 

[Ozriel]

Ukraine is not in NATO, so who are we defending exactly in this supposed defensive only alliance as you call it? Why is Russia invading Ukraine an existential threat to Europe if Russia is simultaneously a vanishingly small insignificant threat to Europe? How do you think Ukraine would be fairing without the hundreds of billion in US weapons and invaluable intelligence apparatus?

NATO rightly saw the Invasion of Ukraine as a precursor to wider Russian belligerence in Europe And you'll note that not a single NATO country has entered combat with Russia in Ukraine. NATO is arming and funding Ukraine, not fighting Russia.

How do you think Russia's threat to Europe got dampened? It's because the Ukrainians have destroyed more than 16000 armored vehicles, destroyed a significant portion of Russian helicopter and airforce, blown up much of their short and long range air defence stations and forced the complete depletion of the once massive stockpile of artillery shells. An arsenal than war planners thought would be able to roll into Europe.

The U.S. investment of approx $150bn in Ukraine to date has overachieved in terms of the sheer destruction of materiel in an enemy state. And much of that investment came in the form of surplus to requirement Strykers, Javelins, Abrams tanks and HIMARS.

aide to Ukraine may well be one of the best investments the U.S. has done in ages. Not least because it's also created jobs in the U.S.

Isolationism will only make you weaker. The Chinese are strategic AF and you see them reaching out all the time. That should tell you what the right path is.

 

[Haint]

So the US is expected to send mountains of weapons, money, and intelligence to defend a maybe precursor of a precursor Russian invasion, but EU is well within their right to ban US from airspace and military bases cause they precursively attacked a terrorist country of religious fanatics building nukes whose motto is death to America--a country by the way the EU already considers a quasi-enemy state. Checks out.