Forbes: The Problem With BioWare's Mass Effect 3 Day-One DLC

D

Darklord

Banned
I thought this was worthy of a new thread rather than the OT cause most people seem to caught up in, you know, play the game at the moment. Minor spoiler in article, removed these quotes though.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...wares-mass-effect-3-day-one-dlc-from-ashes/2/


Mass Effect developer BioWare has been lambasted by fans for releasing day-one DLC (downloadable content) that many gamers think should have been included as part of the game itself.
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Casey Hudson, an executive producer on Mass Effect 3, disagrees.

“The DLC, whether it’s day one or not, is always going to be sugar on top, the extra,” he told VentureBeat. “You know, the extra little bits of content that tell side stories.”

We would never take stuff out of the core game and only have it in DLC.(edit: take a note of this bit)”
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Former Mass Effect developer Christina Norman, speaking at a panel at GDC, said that all the fuss over a day-one DLC is nonsense. “Players rant, they know nothing about this DLC that’s coming out other than its name and it’s like “the game must be incomplete, the game must be ruined.”
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So What’s The Big Deal?

The problem is simple: players disagree.

There have been a number of industrious gamers who have dug into the code on the actual Mass Effect 3 discs and have found evidence that the ‘From Ashes’ DLC may have been coded into the original game and then removed.
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BioWare may argue that this is why they released “From Ashes” on the first day – so that fans could play that side mission alongside every other – but that doesn’t make any more sense than simply releasing that story-line as part of the main game itself. Some critics have said that only “fanatics” will really care or be impacted by the day-one DLC.

But doesn’t that just translate into “biggest fans?”
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In other words, if only the game’s biggest fans would care about this, then BioWare is effectively punishing them by charging more for content only they would care about.[/B] One can quickly begin to see how fans might feel screwed over. Especially the game’s “fanatics.”
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I think an analogy here would also be useful.

Imagine a band releases a 12-song album for $14.99. On the same exact day the same band offers a downloadable extra that has three songs not included on the album for an additional $4.99. Then the band says that those extra songs are just “sugar on top” and that they’re trying to release “awesome music” so fans should just stop complaining because “they don’t know what it’s like to record music.”

Now imagine that the same band had, in previous years, released 15 song albums for $14.99.

It’s not a perfect analogy, I realize, but it does help illustrate how fans are beginning to feel robbed by the booming gaming industry.
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Even if the “From Ashes” expansion wasn’t physically coded alongside the rest of the game, it seems obvious that the
Prothean
and the side mission that constitute the DLC were thought of during the rest of the game’s development. Somebody decided it would be a tempting enough carrot and chose to exclude the content from the game itself.
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I have no doubt that the developers of this game wanted to provide an awesome gaming experience for their fans. But part of the gamer-developer relationship that makes all of this work is trust. Trust is important because it keeps fans coming back to a specific developer. This can lead to not just repeat customers, but less piracy – and better user reviews(edit: lol).

When guys like Casey Hudson say that the content wasn’t developed alongside the rest of the game, and then hackers find the files on the disc itself, well, trust goes rushing toward the window
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Meanwhile, developers like Valve are releasing updates incessantly and for free to games like Team Fortress 2. Skyrim developer, Bethesda, releases DLC months after their games hit store shelves. Pretty soon it becomes difficult to countenance or justify charging fans $10 extra for a side mission that plays an integral role in understanding the broader story of a game.
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Yeah, ok, so I that's a lot to just pick out but whatever. It makes a good point, especially about the trust and loyalty. People would drag their face through glass just to get a chance to sniff the computer that designed a chair in Half-life 3. It definitely shows in the Dragon Age series. The series went from 4.07 Million sold,the highest selling Bioware game, and almost universally loved to releasing a sequel being hated by most and only selling a measly 1.86 Million despite more marketing and promotional content.

They also make a good point that "fanatics" does pretty translate into "biggest fan" yet Bioware doesn't see it that way.
 
day 1 dlc is stuff that got cutfrom the final game, because the developer wants extra money. i wont ever support such nonsense and buy the games when they are cheap (in three months).
 
It's a good article for those unfamiliar with this case but everything there has been discussed here thousands of times before.
 
Bioware has plausible deniability. I doubt they are lying about the DLC not being apart of the "main" game. That doesn't really excuse their behavior. The DLC content has probably been in development as long as the "main" game. The only difference is that it was carved out as DLC early in the process.

They're not removing anything from the main game because day one DLC is part of AAA game development. The argument is then that this content wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the DLC model making it possible; again probably not entirely false but also not a very satisfying answer.

edit: BTW, I put my money where my mouth is and didn't buy the stupid game. How many of the other haters can say the same? The only way publishers will learn to stop doing this nonsense is if the games that feature it fail.
 
Funny I just finished that DLC about 30 minutes ago and thought this belongs in the regular version of the game. I can't even remember how I got it, must of been part of the collectors edition code.
 
As much as I wanted to play this game, I just canceled my pre-order. As a game that sold something like 800k on the first day, I doubt they'll miss my sale, but as a developer and a life-long gamer, I'm not going to support a publisher that is blatantly adding cost to a game that already costs $60. Guess I'll pick it up used, or wait for the DLC-bundled pack in a year or two.
 
TheBioLover said:
Is the DLC really essential? I don't have it, so am I missing out on important stuff?
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The mission isn't essential, but the party member is definitely a big deal. It's not Zaeed stuff, it's something that's a huge part of the story, the overall fiction, and at least for my playthrough, the game itself.
 
The only thing that worries me about DLC (as well as XBLA and PSN games too) is will I be able to transfer and use it on the next console released and what happens to this content if I want to play the game in 10 years time on some retro kick either on original or newer hardware?

Does it get released for free online, some sort of universal unlock key gets sent out before the network is shut down, or is the player just shit out of luck? Good way to flog compilation packs of current games next gen - 'comes with ALL content!'.
 
I loved the DLC, but, it should have been free. I could understand if the Prothean had few lines and was just sorta there, but, he isn't and is even more of a party member then zaeed or kasumi from ME2. Just sorta annoys me. They put a ton of work into the Prothean, and then just "cut it".
 
ThoughtsOfSpeaking said:
Better day one than be on the disk and released 7 months down the line for the sole purpose of promoting another platform.
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Those are not the only two choices. There is another choice.

It's called giving the player the full game for the 60 bucks they paid you, instead of cutting pieces out of the game and selling it back to them later.
 
It doesn't bug me that an "extras" development timeline might parallel the standard game development timeline. Why not build the extra stuff (SFxTekken on disc dlc) when a large team is all working on a product. It would probably have benefits.

This article seems to imply that someone looked at the source code and found that the information in there points to this extra as being removed from the standard game to make it an extra. This is much different. Is that what happened?
 
It's quite obviously that the DLC was developed at the same time as the rest of the game, just based on the sheer amount of voice work for that mission from secondary characters like
Garrus
and
Liara
. Also, whenever you take the
Prothean
on a mission with you, there are plenty of character-specific cutscenes
(eg. I took him with me to Tuchanka and Grunt was like "who the fuck is this?")
.
 
Darklord said:
I thought this was worthy of a new thread rather than the OT cause most people seem to caught up in, you know, play the game at the moment. Minor spoiler in article, removed these quotes though.

They also make a good point that "fanatics" does pretty translate into "biggest fan" yet Bioware doesn't see it that way.
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Well, it sure is true for me. Mass Effect 3 will be the last Bioware game I buy. And that's coming from someone that bought each and every piece of DLC for the first two games and all the novels. I'm only buying ME 3 for closure, after that Bioware is dead to me. They want to make an additional $10 on me by ripping me off? Well, now I'm not gonna spend an additional $30 on ME 3 DLC like I planned to do. Youtube will tell me everything I could but won't buy.
 
Their argument, sadly, might be that yes its okay to screw your biggest fans, because they're buying it regardless, and now you pick up a bunch of other sales from other people. Its all business these days.

Mario007 said:
it's on disc in this case too:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116234-Day-One-DLC-Files-Appear-on-Mass-Effect-3-Discs
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He's not saying its not on the disk. he's probably talking about the SFvT dlc, which is completely, undeniably on the disc, but won't be sold for several months.

I'm honestly surprised Forbes is taking a look at this. I guess mass effect is just that big now.
 
Generally speaking, I don't mind pay-for DLC if the price is right relative to the amount of content it offers, however I far prefer the Valve method of releasing DLC for free as a "thank you" to prior purchasers/added incentive for those who have yet to purchase. CDPR are well-versed in this, too.
 
Htown said:
Those are not the only two choices. There is another choice.

It's called giving the player the full game for the 60 bucks they paid you, instead of cutting pieces out of the game and selling it back to them later.
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because ME3 doesn't give you way more content for your $60 than other games?

stuff gets cut out of games mid development all the damn time. judge the base game at $60, not what may have been intended to be in the base game at one point, or content locked out on the disk.
 
i only buy from developers that are not trying to screw me.
it's just bad business, i'll take my money elsewhere.

and mass effect 2 should have been ur last game, if you really didnt like where dlc was heading
 
TheBioLover said:
Is the DLC really essential? I don't have it, so am I missing out on important stuff?
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The DLC companion is huge in terms of the universe. I did the DLC first thing and have brought them with me the whole game. Almost everyone has unique reactions to them (both party members and NPCs with unique dialogue), and they are fully integrated into cutscenes with dialogue and interaction, unlike say Zared from ME2. The character has also directly affected some cutscenes that I have NO idea how they would have gone otherwise.

So yes it is important, but their wholesale integration into the game from start to finish makes it blatantly obvious that they were carved out from the main game for extra money. This also matches up with the files on the disc and the early script link. But even if you were to somehow not believe all of that, the fact that they would have this character exist and not put them in the main game is shameful.

I got it due to the CE, but this is definetely my tipping point with Bioware. If it had been day one for new buyers like Zared was that would be fine. But this is just bullshit and they're lying about it.
 
Great points. I have never, and never will, pay for DLC. Also, games that paradoxically have DLC already on the discs, but inaccessible until I pay extra for it, I refuse to buy at all.
 
I'm not entirely super duper against the idea of day 1 DLC. But having it contain the
Prothean
? Dick move Bioware, dick move
 
Darklord said:
Yeah, ok, so I that's a lot to just pick out but whatever.
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I think you picked out some really good parts and I really liked the comparison to a band's CD. I mean the "purposely incomplete" argument has been around since the first time people have noticed DLC being included on the disc but it's nice to see a real source like Forbes bringing it out of the forum space and into the "legitimate" space. It took a long time, but at least someone is pointing out how ridiculous it is that consumers have accepted this awful practice.
 
The music analogy is a little weird, since artists have been releasing special editions of albums with extra tracks via digital sellers for years, and they typically ask you to shell out a little extra for them. Not to mention, there is already effectively an understanding among consumers that the number of tracks across different albums vary wildly.
 
Nyoro SF said:
As long as people are comfortable with paying ridiculous prices for games and their "add-on DLC", they'll never stop.
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Maybe I'm part of the problem - I cancelled my CE preorder (needed the money for motorcycle parts), which means I went from day-one CE buyer to waiting to buy the regular version when it's on sale for $30 or less.

Did this with ME2, and I bought all of that game's DLC.
 
Day 1 DLC is in my opinion up there with pre-order exclusives and on disc DLC. An awful practice and no matter what they sell I am sure it almost always comes down to stuff they cut out to make more money. Yes I bought and ME3 but I will not buy the Day 1 DLC. I would actually like to play it but I can't help that Bioware or the suits at EA are just trying to take advantage of my love for the game.
 
Class_A_Ninja said:
It doesn't bug me that an "extras" development timeline might parallel the standard game development timeline. Why not build the extra stuff (SFxTekken on disc dlc) when a large team is all working on a product. It would probably have benefits.
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Why do we assume this? If the end goal is to make as much profit as possible from a title (the reason DLC exists), why hire another team when you can just chop away a part of the pre-planned game?

Using that same SFxTek example, when Lupino leaked the characters list months ago many of the DLC characters were included and not differentiated from the others on his list. Imho it reads more like they made as many characters as they could in a specific time period then culled the list MONTHS before release...rather then hiring a whole other team.

I just can't buy the whole 'we added extra manpower/time/hired' when the whole goal is to have a big a return on investment as possible. Plenty of companies do DLC right, but it's getting to the point where plenty of companies look to be simply using it as a way to artificially drive up game prices. Which is understandable, but at the same time it's a pretty disingenuous way to do it.
 
echoshifting said:
The music analogy is a little weird, since artists have been releasing special editions of albums with extra tracks via digital sellers for years, and they typically ask you to shell out a little extra for them. Not to mention, there is already effectively an understanding among consumers that the number of tracks across different albums vary wildly.
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he kinda said that his comparison wasn't perfect so analogy aside

Could be seen both ways I think and that's tough
 
Tucah said:
It's a good article for those unfamiliar with this case but everything there has been discussed here thousands of times before.
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Uh huh, but now it's from a reputable publication. It's a pretty important article, it's certainly the biggest place I've seen speaking out against this silliness.

Bringing up Dragon Age's sales is good, because it basically underlines why this behaviour amounts to Bioware shooting themselves in the foot. Also, they'll only listen to business reasons why they need to cut back on the nickle'n'diming, I fear.
 
I just don't buy EA games anymore. They're not focused on doing things customers actually want so I don't give them money.

Bioware is dead. It is the EA RPG label now, get used to it.
 
krazen said:
Why do we assume this? If the end goal is to make as much profit as possible from a title (the reason DLC exists), why hire another team when you can just chop away a part of the pre-planned game?

Using that same SFxTek example, when Lupino leaked the characters list months ago many of the DLC characters were included and not differentiated from the others on his list. Imho it reads more like they made as many characters as they could in a specific time period then culled the list MONTHS before release...rather then hiring a whole other team.

I just can't buy the whole 'we added extra manpower/time/hired' when the whole goal is to have a big a return on investment as possible. Plenty of companies do DLC right, but it's getting to the point where plenty of companies look to be simply using it as a way to artificially drive up game prices. Which is understandable, but at the same time it's a pretty disingenuous way to do it.
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i just don't personally understand why people care so much about WHEN something was made or conceived. either the final game is worth $60 or it isn't. if a small team makes a small game with a small amount of content and sell that game for $60 i'm never going to look at that as being somehow better than a large team that makes three times the content, but cuts a third of it for DLC and sells me a game for $60 that's still twice the size of the other title.

Mass Effect 3 and SFxTK. the quality and amount of content you get in those games makes a lot of $60 games look poor value. i just don't see the logic in looking at anything other than the finished project and it's price tag.

what stops a developer going too far? well no one is going to buy a short game with massive plot holes and no ending for $60. they still have to make a base game worth at least $60 to a large amount of people in order to sell them ANY dlc. that's what keeps them honest. cut too much stuff for DLC, and you won't sell any.
 
All day 1dlc means to me is I wont buy the title until I get all dlc and the main game for under $60. Dlc to me is bullshit.
 
Blunt said:
The only thing that worries me about DLC (as well as XBLA and PSN games too) is will I be able to transfer and use it on the next console released and what happens to this content if I want to play the game in 10 years time on some retro kick either on original or newer hardware?

Does it get released for free online, some sort of universal unlock key gets sent out before the network is shut down, or is the player just shit out of luck? Good way to flog compilation packs of current games next gen - 'comes with ALL content!'.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm with Blunt here. I've always given this thought that maybe 10 or more years down the line I will want to play a game and what happens if the DLC (and for that matter, patches that were there to fix bugs) isn't available? This is one thing that really irks me about contemporary games and why I prefer my content on physical storage such as a disc or card.
 
Green Scar said:
Uh huh, but now it's from a reputable publication. It's a pretty important article, it's certainly the biggest place I've seen speaking out against this silliness.

Bringing up Dragon Age's sales is good, because it basically underlines why this behaviour amounts to Bioware shooting themselves in the foot. Also, they'll only listen to business reasons why they need to cut back on the nickle'n'diming, I fear.
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Yup, and about time as well. The more this type of business tactics, money grab, is reported, the better. Along with SFxTekken, no buys, and my money will go elsewhere.
 
Between the character's race, how tightly he's integrated into the game, and the fact that it's a launch product, the DLC in ME3 pretty much amounts to a $10 fan tax. It's a smart idea to budget for and develop DLC from the beginning, but it can be a fine line between offering supplemental experiences to a game as paid content and offering a meaningful chunk of said game.

It's BioWare/EA's right to charge for whatever they think fans will pay for. And Javik is a tough sell alongside the "there's never been a better time to jump into Mass Effect than Mass Effect 3" marketing push. But it's also our right to feel cynical about their elaborate monetization plans on all fronts when it comes to ME3. No one is going to confuse them with Valve or Blizzard anytime soon, that's for sure.
 
From the Ashes kinda felt like it was part of the game and just taken out in a lot of ways, dialogue during and in between missions, events in certain places and such almost as much as any other character. The problem I have is that it should have been part of the game and then developed more into the core story instead of trying to have to make it feel like it doesn't need to be there with the main story.

Simply put, it could have and should have been a larger part of the lore of the games than just DLC on the side.
 
ironcreed said:
Just wow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRRpGlmtws8
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0019_9ubb.gif
 
Darkmakaimura said:
Yeah, I'm with Blunt here. I've always given this thought that maybe 10 or more years down the line I will want to play a game and what happens if the DLC (and for that matter, patches that were there to fix bugs) isn't available? This is one thing that really irks me about contemporary games and why I prefer my content on physical storage such as a disc or card.
Click to expand...

It's definitely going to be interesting to watch. This seems like a major hurdle for the console manufacturers. If they don't find a way to carry this content over, I could easily see dlc sales plummet as people lose confidence.

But then I could just as easily see most people shrugging it off and continuing to buy dlc. =/ Who knows? We've shown in the past that we aren't very good at predicting how the mass market will respond to changes in the medium.
 
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