Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE

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The third game shows us what a regular dream is like, not what a hallucination is like. We also know that indoctrination warps people's thoughts, turns them against their wills.

But why? As a story, what does Mass Effect gain from this?

Again, there is no necessary reason to believe you are actually shooting the Illusive Man, just like there's no reason to believe Anderson made it to the beam in one piece. Of course TIM says things that sound like him - Shepard knows enough about him to imagine his reaction, and the Reapers know enough about him to fake his reactions in Shepard's head. There is no contradiction here - only a lacking sense of intent on the part of the writers.

There's really no reason to not believe you are shooting the Illusive Man, either. What would be proof enough? An email in NG+ that says "ow shepard getting shot really hurts"? Again, all I can really ask is: why? What does ME3 have to gain, as a story, from the ending being a hallucination?

I'm not arguing that it's handled perfectly, because it's not - if it is true, then it is far too nebulous (clearly, or people would be more willing to entertain the idea). But nothing about it runs counter to the themes of the game, or the logic of the universe, or even the idea of "fighting a Reaper" at the end. In this interpretation, you are fighting a Reaper, but in the most personal way - in your mind, against indoctrination. Isn't that less cliche than the military bravado option?

I'd say that it's equally cliche, honestly. I think most forms of media recently have tried too hard to provide "deep" endings than actual endings for a while now, because for whatever reason everyone is far too clever for classic story structure these days.
 
I honestly still can't believe that was the ending. I mean, what the flying fuck.

Fuck synthesis and control, I said I'd kick the Reapers in their proverbial quad and I did. And I fucking survived it too.

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But we aren't shown any evidence of this, so why should we believe it? The Catalyst is pretty similar to Big Boss at the end of MGS4 without the heavy exposition.

That's another thing. If the Catalyst lied through Sovereign through the first game, why wouldn't it be lying at the end? Now we just have an unreliable expositor for this illogical scheme and doesn't help at all either. Especially since there's been no indication that anyone's been lying to this point save for the huge pile of contradictions.
 
The third game provides all the evidence you need: the dream sequence chasing the kid around. The kid "isn't there," but Shepard chases it anyway. Also, in ME2, it's clear that Reapers can tamper with people's memories: when searching for the Reaper IFF, the scientists both have the same memory about the same wife, which is impossible.

The third game shows us what a regular dream is like, not what a hallucination is like. We also know that indoctrination warps people's thoughts, turns them against their wills.

Again, there is no necessary reason to believe you are actually shooting the Illusive Man, just like there's no reason to believe Anderson made it to the beam in one piece. Of course TIM says things that sound like him - Shepard knows enough about him to imagine his reaction, and the Reapers know enough about him to fake his reactions in Shepard's head. There is no contradiction here - only a lacking sense of intent on the part of the writers.

I'm not arguing that it's handled perfectly, because it's not - if it is true, then it is far too nebulous (clearly, or people would be more willing to entertain the idea). But nothing about it runs counter to the themes of the game, or the logic of the universe, or even the idea of "fighting a Reaper" at the end. In this interpretation, you are fighting a Reaper, but in the most personal way - in your mind, against indoctrination. Isn't that less cliche than the military bravado option?

The dreams you have about the kid front the beginning are nightmare because of the guilt you have from not saving him. This is confirmed later on when you hear the voices of Ashley/Kaidan which have the same final lines they had on Virmire. You eventually hear Legion too at the end because you lost him. The character creation screen even talk about psychological damage done by the death of teammates if you don't import a save. This is not indoctrination.

Just answer this question for me. Who closed the arms of the Citadel if it's only a dream and the Illusive Man is not there. In ME1 the VI Ilos makes it clear that they can't use the keepers anymore to control the Citadel because the protheans modified the system after their stasis when they went back on the Citadel through the Ilos relay. Thus, in ME1 they needed Saren to close the arms.

The arms are closed before your magic dream sequence. Hence you learn about that before launching the final assault. You need the magic teleport beam to go to the Citadel to open the arms. Who could have closed them and had a sensible reason in the plot to do so except the Illusive Man. Remember he is indoctrinated but doesn't realize it. The plot even acknowledges that he told them about the crucible and the plan. The game aslo show you that the Illusive Man thinks he can control the reapers but that in fact he can't. They basically used him to close the arms and act as a guard while he thought he could break from their will but couldn't.
 
It's pretty clear that shepherd wasn't hallucinating when he met TIM because he could kill you if you don't shoot him first . However, I do think shepherd is in another reality after Anderson dies partly do to the fact he's talking in space and the echo effect they use when he talks.

or it could mean that he killed him in that dream sequence. I don't think that's a good reason to disprove the 'hallucination theory'. The fact that the catalyst kid said he'd die because he is partly synthetic if he chooses 'destruction' option, yet that's the only option that shows the clip of Shepard still alive at the end is the biggest evidence supporting that theory.
 
I don't think the civilizations are "fucked." I mean, ships can travel between nearby systems with relative ease.

Economy's fucked, earth and it's nearby planets were probably strip mined long ago (it relied on its colonies). It's population was thrown into death camps to be rendered down into protein paste, so the death toll is likely in the hundreds of millions. Thousands of unexploded ship engines and munitions from the space battle above are now going to start falling back down to earth...not to mention what's left of the citadel.
 
It gets better every time I listen to it.

"This one has forgotten whether its pistol is equipped with incendiary ammunition."
*cocks gun*
"Does the criminal scum consider itself fortunate?"

Amazing :lol

"You can't touch the vorcha they've got diplomatic immunity!!"

Blasto: "Then this one will not attempt diplomacy"
 
They have to cull organic civilisations because it's organics who create synthetics. If they just kept destroying the machines organics produce, leaving organics to develop, a time would eventually come where organics had become so advanced that the synthetics they build would be more powerful than the reapers, compromising the cycle.

Why?
 

Because the reapers themselves, as synthetics, will have been created by an organic race (that we can infer will have been far more advanced than the organic races present in Mass Effect 3), no? So if organic civilisations were allowed to become this advanced again, over time, or even more advanced, what would stop them from building synthetics that could match or exceed the power of the reapers?
 
Something interesting I noticed (pure speculation for fun, don't shoot me):

dream sequence light:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlhq6n2yDtE&t=1m44s

and light after being 'beamed'?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBHY44zOe4s&t=0m31s

They used a photoshopped image of a stock photo for Tali's face. They have hilarious 2-d sprites running in the background on earth.

I don't think them reusing a bright light is really surprising or suggestive of some deeper meaning.

Because the reapers themselves, as synthetics, will have been created by an organic race (that we can infer will have been far more advanced than the organic races present in Mass Effect 3), no? So if organic civilisations were allowed to become this advanced again, over time, or even more advanced, what would stop them from building synthetics that could match or exceed the power of the reapers?

Why do the Reapers need to protect organics from their own mistakes?

Why would the organics ignore warnings of their folly and create their own destruction even after being told?

Why would organics destroy a race that is only trying to protect them?

Why would organics never actually just turn themselves into cyborgs (like Shepard) thereby bringing about the best 'Synthetic' ending on their own if given enough time and less culling?

Humans did a hell of a good job blindly following the advice left by the Protheans. Reapers could have just acted as some sort of benevolent Grandpa to insure they never killed themselves.
 
Something interesting I noticed (pure speculation for fun, don't shoot me):

dream sequence light:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlhq6n2yDtE&t=1m44s

and light after being 'beamed'?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBHY44zOe4s&t=0m31s

Vignetted screen edges + fade to white = ...?

Come now, if we're going to call any part in a game/movie/anything where something fades out, we're going to have a lot of dream sequences. A fade out is an indication of time passed, to slow the pace of a piece of media down. It makes sense for there to be a fade out in both sequences.
 
We're told explicitly that the reapers are controlled by a singular intelligence (the catalyst), I'm not sure there's much evidence throughout the series to counteract this. Where is it stated that they're an autonomous species (and if it is stated at some point, why does this contradict what the catalyst says? If you're referencing the conversation with sovereign, has it ever crossed your mind that lies and intimidation could play a key role in shaping how organic civilizations respond to the reapers?)

I agree that there is no precedent within the Mass Effect universe for the synthetics vs organics problem, and I agree that this is a fundamental flaw with the denouement. But the reaper solution does (assuming they're all controlled by a unifying intelligence) solve the problem of preventing apocalyptic synthetics from being created, regardless of whether or not these hypothetical synthetics would actually destroy all organic civilisation. All that is neccesary for the explanation of the reapers to be logically sound is that whoever created the reaper cycle believed that the hypothetical doomsday synthetics would eradicate organic life.

Didn't one of the reapers say that each one is a civilization, able to think for themselves?

Sigh, game could have ended so much better.
 
I'm fucking depressed.

I've been a huge fan of the series since day 1.. probably played through ME1 10+ times alone.

Right now, I don't want to touch Mass Effect ever again.
 
The whole thing soured me on Bioware. It was me giving them a last chance after DA 2, and I didn't think it was near as bad as DA2, but this is also their 'big' franchise, so I was disappointed that A) it didn't feel like much of a sequel and B) the writing. The party members were terrible. The ending is terrible. There were shitty space ninjas. TIM went from being an unknown party to 'IM BAD BWAHAHAHAHA" and the Udina thing felt like 'well we need someone to turn bad'

It sucks because I'm replaying Dragon Age: Origins and remembering how much I loved it. I don't want to fall for the hype again.
 
I'm fucking depressed.

I've been a huge fan of the series since day 1.. probably played through ME1 10+ times alone.

Right now, I don't want to touch Mass Effect ever again.

I'm playing Mass Effect 1 again for the first time in what seems like four years to wash away the bad taste ME3 left me.
 
They used a photoshopped image of a stock photo for Tali's face. They have hilarious 2-d sprites running in the background on earth.

I don't think them reusing a bright light is really surprising or suggestive of some deeper meaning.



Why do the Reapers need to protect organics from their own mistakes?

Why would the organics ignore warnings of their folly and create their own destruction even after being told?

Why would organics destroy a race that is only trying to protect them?

Why would organics never actually just turn themselves into cyborgs (like Shepard) thereby bringing about the best 'Synthetic' ending on their own if given enough time and less culling?

Humans did a hell of a good job blindly following the advice left by the Protheans. Reapers could have just acted as some sort of benevolent Grandpa to insure they never killed themselves.

Reapers need to protect organics from their own mistakes because that's what they're programmed to do.

Say organics were allowed to develop to a point where they could create apocalyptic synthetics (that could destroy the reapers) but were aware of what creating these synthetics would do, and exercised self-restraint, what would prevent one psycopathic individual, or splinter group, from ignoring the advice and making the synthetics anyway? The very capacity of a civilisation to create apocalyptic synthetics that could wipe out the entirety of organic life makes that civilisation a risk, in the eyes of whoever created the reapers, no?
 
How do you even get 5000 war assets? I think I was missing like 200 or something. Does Shepard survive for any of the endings or just the destroy all synthetics one?

Also everyone seemed to hype the soundtrack but I thought the one for ME2 was better. Only memorable track would be the sad one that seemed to play in dramatic moments.
 
Just beat the game:

- Tali lives to give me a photoshopped stock photo of herself
- Despite what we know about the Geth and Quarians, you still have to pick one or the other.
- The Reapers make no sense
- Shepard truly is Space Jesus.

Good game, but awful story & ending. The character interactions are and have always been the best part of Mass Effect.
 
I can't tell you how entertaining it is seeing multiple people from the official thread come filing in here with basically the same posts.

I'm Red Blaster and this is my favorite thread on NeoGAF.
 
I'm fucking depressed.

I've been a huge fan of the series since day 1.. probably played through ME1 10+ times alone.

Right now, I don't want to touch Mass Effect ever again.

We're going to have to create a support group at this rate. I definitely know that feeling though. I had to delete the 3 desktop shortcuts just so I wouldn't see them when starting my computer up.
 
Reapers need to protect organics from their own mistakes because that's what they're programmed to do.

Say organics were allowed to develop to a point where they could create apocalyptic synthetics (that could destroy the reapers) but were aware of what creating these synthetics would do, and exercised self-restraint, what would prevent one psycopathic individual, or splinter group, from ignoring the advice and making the synthetics anyway? The very capacity of a civilisation to create apocalyptic synthetics that could wipe out the entirety of organic life makes that civilisation a risk, in the eyes of whoever created the reapers, no?

So when the organic species that made the Reapers put on the finishing touches of their masterpiece in synthetics, did they instruct the Reapers to immediately turn around and kill them? Why did the original creators feel synthetic life would invariably wipe out organic and why did they leave synthetic life in charge of insuring the safety of organic when it's inevitable they would just wipe them out anyway?

Why didn't they just genetically manipulate a biological species to safe-guard the galaxy? It's clear they knew how - the Reapers used these very same processes to create the Collectors and the original organics did it to create the Keepers.

And why does this benevolent, grandfatherly race even care about all the pond sucking cell-based organisms to come after them? Why do they hate synthetics so much?

Why is this even considered a cogent thought?
 
But why? As a story, what does Mass Effect gain from this?

With this theory, you get the following: 1) a mental, rather than physical fight against Harbinger, which is more unexpected; 2) a showcase of Shepard's mental state and a first-hand account of how tricky indoctrination can be; and 3) a way to test Shepard's resolve and see through the Catalyst's bullshit and trust in the forces you've built up this whole time.

Granted, this isn't necessarily about what is gained, but what ties the elements together best. Even still, what does Mass Effect gain from interpreting the Catalyst as a God child? Is it really any better or more logical than that indoctrination idea?

There's really no reason to not believe you are shooting the Illusive Man, either. What would be proof enough? An email in NG+ that says "ow shepard getting shot really hurts"? Again, all I can really ask is: why? What does ME3 have to gain, as a story, from the ending being a hallucination?

In a way, it allows the writers to cop-out of an explanatory ending by using a psychological one. It centers on Shepard's mental fragility, embodied in her physical weakness. Considering chunks of the game have focused on Shepard doubting herself, not only in terms of capability but also in terms of how organic she is really (following her rebuilding in ME2), and the dream sequences add to this doubt, I'd say this interpretation lines up nicely with the established themes.

It's not a replacement for a complete epilogue; but it also provides an opportunity for Bioware to leave the ending open-ended enough that they can go in pretty much any direction they want.

I'd say that it's equally cliche, honestly. I think most forms of media recently have tried too hard to provide "deep" endings than actual endings for a while now, because for whatever reason everyone is far too clever for classic story structure these days.
Again, I'm not saying it's perfectly executed. Clearly, it's not. But I do suspect that the writers wanted to at least "do something different," something out of left field. This is made apparent in the CE art book, when they talk about how they scrapped their idea of the Illusive Man transforming into a monster for a final boss, and instead focused on an "intellectual battle."

I don't want to be angry at ME3 - I spent good money on it, and a lot of time with the franchise, and I want something that at least makes sense. This theory makes a lot of sense. Maybe it's a pattern weaved from disconnected strands, and I'll admit that it could be. But considering how well it could work, how well it aligns with information across all three games, I don't see why I should torture my mental and emotional state with blind hatred, just because it's fun to knock Bioware. The writers should be criticized for various things, without a doubt, and I've said multiple times that this theory is troubled by their possibly being too subtle. But I see no reason to think that the writers can't be that subtle. Doing so is suffering a superiority complex, I think - and also ignoring the fact that being too subtle is not necessarily a talent reserved for professional writers. Hack writers can be too subtle, too clever - a good writer will find a balance. I don't think there is a balance here, hence so much discontent over the ending, but that doesn't mean the theory is invalidated.
 
We're going to have to create a support group at this rate. I definitely know that feeling though. I had to delete the 3 desktop shortcuts just so I wouldn't see them when starting my computer up.

We honestly need one. I know there are some crazy people on BSN, but some are swearing by the whole 'hallucination' scenario... poor guys :(

Really BioWare, WHAT THE FUCK?

How the hell didn't all the people who worked on this game, all the people that play-tested before release, project leaders like Casey Hudson (who's been there from the beginning) not realise how disgustingly bad the ending is?

I'm trying very hard not to go overboard here.
 
I agree with the poster that said he felt he got punched in the gut after finishing it.

I was very hard with bioware latest games (me2 and da2 a bit on swtor too) but i was loving the game until the end. It had alot of content , great little touches everywhere and i actually felt sad a couple of times (mordins and legions deaths).

The ending came and blew away everything good about the game. I actually felt revolted.. Completely soured my wanting to play a mass effect game again..

I hope that will go away since it was my favorite new ip along with the witcher but that was completely fucked up.
 
This reminds me of those support group/forums the SUPER fans of James Cameron's Avatar had from the withdrawl from the universe.

Except multiplied by about 60+ hours, 5 years of release time, and a worse ending
 
The worst part about this dream bullshit is that Bioware will probably never deny this, or even worst, pretending that was the intented plan, thus perpetuating the cicle of the stupid.
 
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