David Jaffe is doing free-to-play shooter
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KS route may be tricky because:
1)F2P is a cuss word amongst its current gaming audience
2)the audience consists of PC gamers mostly and David has been big on consoles...
but if the pitch is honest, there is a good video and GAMEPLAY + good coverage, it may be successful..
1)F2P is a cuss word amongst its current gaming audience
2)the audience consists of PC gamers mostly and David has been big on consoles...
but if the pitch is honest, there is a good video and GAMEPLAY + good coverage, it may be successful..
alexandros
Banned
Free-to-play games are great nowadays, we've come a long way from the "pay-to-win" asian MMOs of the past. People should really get over their prejudice towards F2P. In fact, single-player F2P games will soon follow:
http://www.edge-online.com/news/ngmoco-singleplayer-next-free-play
http://www.edge-online.com/news/ngmoco-singleplayer-next-free-play
Some F2P titles I've played and have merit:
1) TF2. Obviously the big one here, it implements it's model very well and is able to do so because it has sold all it's copies to people interested. By having a tiered cosmetic economy and robust trading with Steam integration it maintains profit through word of mouth and content updates.
2) Vindictus. It's fun, looks nice, has physics, and rewards skill. Bit grindy in the later levels, but fun to play for sure.
3) Firefall. FPS/MMO with loot and persistence. In Beta and still a lot to work on, but the team behind it is doing an interesting approach with staged content release and a relatively small team. They have a lot of good people there and I'm really looking forward to what it grows into.
4) LoL. Pretty explanatory
5) World of Tanks. I don't know how this thing got so damn popular. Seriously.
6) ElSword. A cute sidescrolling ARPG/MMO. Combos and scoring plus a loot system helps keeps things interesting.
7) DragonsNest. Another cute MMO. More emphasis on controlling enemies you fight with juggles / skill CD rotations.
Have not played:
Lord of the Rings Online. Heard good things about this.
Dungeon Fighter Online. Heard good things about this, but also heard F2P limits your content a bit.
Dungeons & Dragons Online Unlimited.
1) TF2. Obviously the big one here, it implements it's model very well and is able to do so because it has sold all it's copies to people interested. By having a tiered cosmetic economy and robust trading with Steam integration it maintains profit through word of mouth and content updates.
2) Vindictus. It's fun, looks nice, has physics, and rewards skill. Bit grindy in the later levels, but fun to play for sure.
3) Firefall. FPS/MMO with loot and persistence. In Beta and still a lot to work on, but the team behind it is doing an interesting approach with staged content release and a relatively small team. They have a lot of good people there and I'm really looking forward to what it grows into.
4) LoL. Pretty explanatory
5) World of Tanks. I don't know how this thing got so damn popular. Seriously.
6) ElSword. A cute sidescrolling ARPG/MMO. Combos and scoring plus a loot system helps keeps things interesting.
7) DragonsNest. Another cute MMO. More emphasis on controlling enemies you fight with juggles / skill CD rotations.
Have not played:
Lord of the Rings Online. Heard good things about this.
Dungeon Fighter Online. Heard good things about this, but also heard F2P limits your content a bit.
Dungeons & Dragons Online Unlimited.
Sentenza
Member
Here's usually my problem with F2P games: while I can understand that they are supposed to be free just as a trial version and they aim to convince the player to pay money, which I'm totally fine with, they usually have a monetizing model based on exploiting the player's addiction, pushing him/her to spend insane amounts of dollars for trivial gains.
Let's take Vindictus as an example: of course it offers for free pretty much all you need to play, but if by any chance you decide that you like the game and you are willing to pay for the extra features, then you have to face ridiculous things like "ten dollars for the skin of a leather jacket, other five dollars for a hat" and so on.
What about a free2play model where if I decide that I'm fine with buying your game, because I like it enough to care for the extra features, skins, etc, then I can do it at a reasonable price, with an all-included package and without feeling an idiot who's throwing away his money in the process?
Let's take Vindictus as an example: of course it offers for free pretty much all you need to play, but if by any chance you decide that you like the game and you are willing to pay for the extra features, then you have to face ridiculous things like "ten dollars for the skin of a leather jacket, other five dollars for a hat" and so on.
What about a free2play model where if I decide that I'm fine with buying your game, because I like it enough to care for the extra features, skins, etc, then I can do it at a reasonable price, with an all-included package and without feeling an idiot who's throwing away his money in the process?
a good point actually.
Tribes sort of did it with their 30$ and 60$ price packs but 10$ for a weapon? lol, no. I'll earn it in-game just on principle.
Sorry to say this but since Jaffe left Sony, I didn't see anything memorable from him and I bout Calling All Cars blindly due to his previous work that I enjoyed emensly and that game was literally my worst game that I have ever bought. Even the PSN menu music was SO loud and obnoxious. Since I am pragmatic, I scratched off his name completely. I am sure he is a great person and I await the time I get pleasantly surprised to read Jaffe's name in the credits of a game I like.
Wish you the best Jaffe.
Wish you the best Jaffe.
Did you ever play Calling Calls with three other people locally? That game achieved NBA Jam levels of couch multiplayer goodness.
I'll 'get over my prejudice' as soon as freemium becomes the default model. Give me the option to pay a monthly subscription fee for access to the content you're nickel-and-diming the non-subscribers for and I can live with it.
No, just with random online users. Looking back, I literally didn't know anything about the game other than Jaffe was behind it so I bought it blindly. Looking back, I wouldn't have bought it if I looked it up before hand. Games like NBA Jam sucks you in the second you watch a video of it (whether played or a trailer). CAC on the other hand- to me at least- is really bad- to put it gently in case any of the people involved are reading this.
Of course, the game was green-lit and released, so I guess someone was pleased with it, but it certainly wasn't me.
Nickle and diming based games of course suck. My problem with F2Ps is that I have nothing invested in them. Therefore if the game doesn't grab my attention fast, fuck it. I'm moving onto something else. So not only do you need a business model that doesn't annoy me and a game I'd otherwise pay for, but in old arcade style it needs to grab my attention fast.
The only F2Ps I've enjoyed so far are ones I already knew what I was getting into, like TF2 and Quake Live. If you have a new IP? Good luck with that. I'll admit I'm probably outdated in my thoughts that F2P games are probably free for a reason...
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Awesome. I like the games Jaffe has worked on. I like that he thinks that most F2P implementation is shit currently. That gives me hope he's going to come up with a good model that can both make him and his company money while not being too restrictive or limiting to the player who doesn't want to get nickle and dimed at every turn.
Yep! The game was tons of fun with local multiplayer. The problem is that it wasn't much fun unless you had people in the same room to play with.
Yep! The game was tons of fun with local multiplayer. The problem is that it wasn't much fun unless you had people in the same room to play with.
Grinchy
Banned
But 12 X 0 = 0. They fucked up!
I am not qualified to give an opinion on this, but since we are dicussing F2P, here are my 0.2 cents: F2P attracts people who wouldn't have otherwise tried the game. So if you attract 100 users who wouldn't have normally bought your game and found only one of those interested enough to pay for additional content; that is free money/ or a consumer bought. So why not? I don't play PC games (tried but cannot get past the input controls). I played TF2 only after it went F2P- for about 2 minutes. Still, the F2P move attracted me even though I was never or will never be a consumer. The point is, the moved worked as an attraction and I think that is all what F2P is; attraction.
LOTRO had a good model when it immediately went F2P because much of the base game wasn't designed around segmenting its parts behind a paywall and it rewarded you appropriately for your time. Recently it has fallen into the F2P trap of overtly segmenting what you can get with money including upgrades, trait levels, etc. The game doesn't have a focus on PvP but it still has become in many ways pay to win. Shit like the highest tier crafting standing has to be bought, even if you have a sub and shit like that.
Interfectum
Member
ice cold
Spectacular Dr Dawg
Member
An f2p shooter that's more like quake or tribes without the usual f2p carrot on a stick stuff would be great.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/670743543/ground-branch
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/670743543/ground-branch
Syphon Filter
Member
PC?
Because one of the cardinal rules in f2p is "don't limit the player's ability to spend".
A one-shot deal like that is the antithesis of f2p monetizing.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
I actually think GROUND BRANCH looks fantastic- at least in theory and desire. Amazed hard core FPS players have not come out of the woodwork to make this happen.
I probably won't spend much time playing it as it's too hard core and too real for me but I can see old school hard core shooter fans loving it.
David
You're being a bit reductive on what he said, aren't you? He came off on Giant Bomb like he thought he could get a good amount of what made consoles fun for him on smart phones. I don't necessarily agree, but I think he's trying to stay ahead of the curb and not get marginalized because he's not making Call of Duty, Mario, or Uncharted. He's clearly interested in making lower-stress games for himself and his audience.
blitzcloud
Banned
By charging for it 3-4 years? Well, yeah I guess that's a way of looking at it.
Sentenza
Member
Which is exactly my problem with it.
I'm never going to buy anything in a free2play game cause they don't give me the option to make a smart, convenient purchase. They just try to exploit people's addiction with the game.
My only practical options are:
- be a cheap ass and never spend a cent into the game.
- waste money in overpriced crap which isn't even remotely worth what it costs.
And if I'm not too fond of the first, I genuinely hate the second.
The only problem with that is the people who would spend 10X more than most people will just buy that pack. Those "whales" are needed to make up for people that buy nothing.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
If I may:
1- I'm very proud of the design work of the MP in the last TM. But I agree, as a whole package, it was certainly not my best work as a director. So much of what make a game amazing is about being with a team that shares, supports, and adds to the same singular vision and while I have mega respect for the team in Utah, a big part of the reason the most recent games we did together were not our best is- I think- because we (as game makers) were not 100% in sync on a creative level. That's the biggest reason I am no longer working with those very talented folks.
2- I don't really care about next-gen graphics and effects anymore. That stuff is crucial to a segment of the market and while I get as giddy as the next person when I see amazing visuals, I've done this enough to know that what everyone is going ape shit for in Star Wars 1313 (as an example) will be budget bin visuals in a very short time. One simply needs to look back at the 'OMG!!! MEGATON! JAW ON THE FLOOR!' reactions to screenshots from games that introduced that period's next gen to see that this is true. Graphics are very important but unless it's the art style you are going gaga over (totally different, in that case), next gen graphics and spectacle quickly fade and all that is left is gameplay.
My point was/is, on a PURE MECHANIC level, there is very little being done on consoles that is better than what you can find on an iPad. I'm fully aware that the reason many play UNCHARTED 3 is PRIMARILY FOR the spectacle and next-gen visuals and to immerse themselves in that world vs. the nuts and bolts gameplay. And that is why I made sure to be clear that 5-10% of console games can/should only be done well on a console and those are great, great experiences.
3- I assure you, this new game is just as hard and challenging as any other. I'm not looking to get into browser games cause it's less stress. It won't be less stress by any means.
David
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
100% agree. Unless something goes terribly wrong, we won't be doing that. The current models we are looking at were designed specifically NOT to do that.
WX3
Member
Did Blacklight Retribution get mentioned yet? I am very new to the f2p scene but this games business model could be interesting to investigate. I thought I would add this to the conversation in case Mr. Jaffe would like to explore its angle.
Regardless, I wish you and your team the best with the project.
Regardless, I wish you and your team the best with the project.
Go look at the iOS gaming topic. iOS (in particular iPad) is one the most interesting platforms in gaming right now with endless great indie titles coming out for it. Jaffe isn't wrong, at all. The ones who think this way probably think iOS gamers sit around playing Angry Birds and flash game clones.
Riposte
Member
I don't think iOs has the developers nor the desire (partially because of the control scheme) for action games or high-end strategy games for it to really be on an equal plane for the rest of gaming as a whole (so the idea it is equal to 95% of gaming is absurd to me, potential aside). There are a few exceptions, but they happen to the exceptions no one in media ever talks about (e.g. Cave ports). It is more than a matter of graphics or even how the games are structured. I often go out of my way to try games people hype up as "core experiences" (Sword and Sorcery, SF4, Infinity Blade, etc) on iOs and almost always come away completely disappointed (often enough it is the graphics/art style which these otherwise shallow games are trying to sell on, which is funny given the conversation).
But I guess that's getting off topic of free to play. The FPS F2P market is starting to get a bit crowded. Jaffe will have to do some work to go up against stuff like Warface and Team Fortress.
In any case I thought Twisted Metal (multiplayer) was pretty fun. (EDIT: Though it had a bunch of leveling unlocks in it, which was disappointing given what Jaffe has said in the past)
EDIT: Have the guys who are trashing the new Twisted Metal played it?
But I guess that's getting off topic of free to play. The FPS F2P market is starting to get a bit crowded. Jaffe will have to do some work to go up against stuff like Warface and Team Fortress.
In any case I thought Twisted Metal (multiplayer) was pretty fun. (EDIT: Though it had a bunch of leveling unlocks in it, which was disappointing given what Jaffe has said in the past)
EDIT: Have the guys who are trashing the new Twisted Metal played it?
HocusPocus
Member
Yep.
Why would you want to pay a monthly fee to get all skins and fancy colours? Because that's what you would be mostly getting...
Spoken like someone who has not played the recent F2P titles.
Gameloft: "Challenge accepted."
methane47
Member
My love for Jaffe has really waned over the years.
I really used to feel like.. YES THAT is the GUY that speaks for ME in the industry. He is the F'n MANNNnn....
Then his views got crazier and crazier and he started showing this almost dislike for the hardcore... its weird... i don't know... I feel like Jaffe fell off the wagon.
I really used to feel like.. YES THAT is the GUY that speaks for ME in the industry. He is the F'n MANNNnn....
Then his views got crazier and crazier and he started showing this almost dislike for the hardcore... its weird... i don't know... I feel like Jaffe fell off the wagon.
You gotta admit that the hardcore from a developers point of view is pretty easy to dislike. So much whining and sense of entitlement. Then the simple fact we are actually kind of a minority and developers could make more money making games that are easy for the mass market.
What is "hardcore" about liking games where the mechanics are almost totally subsumed by elements of production?
If anything I would argue that people who like games primarily for their game systems are far more hardcore than people attracted to spectacle.
The thing about an iPad game is you can make a mechanics-driven game with decent enough production in a relatively short time frame. On a console you spend years making a production-driven game with middling, conservative mechanics. That's fairly appealing for a lot of developers.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Hey- totally cool if you don't dig me and the work we do. That's the risk you take when you put your work out there to be judged and purchased. It would rock if everyone loved everything we did but hell, that ain't happening
.But if I may be clear: I LOVE hardcore gaming. This game we are making is a hardcore game (you will see)*. I love hardcore gaming so much that I'm willing to say that for ME (and it's all subjective, naturally) GAME PLAY is more important than ANYTHING else. I love it so much that I'm willing to fail miserably in our next endeavor because we are insistent on monetizing our game with a f2p biz model that treats gamers with the respect they/we deserve vs. nickel and dining us to death at the cost of game balance.
To me, that is hardcore gaming.
If your definition of hard core gaming (subjective as well) is big budget, cinematic experiences like the new TOMB RAIDER and UNCHARTED, then sure: I actually didn't fall off that wagon, I jumped the hell clean off that motherfucker lickity split. I respect and enjoy those games, by the way. I just have zero interest in making interactive movies. But sure, they are fun to play.
Games like FAR CRY 3, DEUS EX, and PLAYSTATION ALL STARS interest me greatly. As do small gameplay centric titles on iOS. And I plan on swimming in the big budget game waters again in my career for sure. I also love games with strong IP, characters, and universes no matter the budget and biz model (I'm pretty confident our new f2p game will have one of the strongest IPs in the biz, be it F2p or console).
Anyway, carry on being all 'whaaaaa!?!?' about me if you like. I don't mind
. Well, that's not true. Sure I mind. We all want to be liked.But I gotta speak up when you suggest I'm abandoning hard core game beliefs. I actually feel I'm embracing those beliefs more now than I ever have before.
Thanks-
David
*Hardcore like TF2, TRIBES, MORTAL KOMBAT, MARIO KART, QUAKE, GOLDENEYE, MAX PAYNE 3,etc...NOT hardcore like WORLD OF TANKS or MOUNT & BLADE...MAINSTREAM, COMMERCIAL HARDCORE** I guess I mean
.**Come to think of it: hard to argue WORLD OF TANKS is not mainstream given its success. But let's just say that game's meta game is too much for my brain. I love the actual tank combat and I love leveling up and such but man, I still don't feel super comfortable that I know what upgrade really does what. Possibly more of a UI issue than a game play issue tho...
methane47
Member
I stand corrected then.
lol Can't wait.
Still wish you would jump back into a Massive Budget AAAAAAAAAAAAAA game though. Because I love the majority of your products (even Calling all Cars)
1- Personally? I adored the co-op campaign and overall attitude of the latest Twisted Metal (I have my signed Sweet Tooth figure on my editing station sitting right in front of me). I've done my fair share of directing & producing when it comes to short films and I can only imagine what it's like to work on something so technical and involving as a game like Twisted Metal along with dozens of other team mates. Directing must be a real trial at times, so it's good to hear that kind of humility and self-analysis going into your next project. Live and learn.
2- It sounds like the ratio of work to benefit is a little too front loaded for a lot of people, graphically speaking. You spend years putting something together only to have to watch the "opening weekend" determine the half-life of your product's success, and at this point in the tech you really need to put in 110% or make concessions to make things standout titles in a sea of great looking material. This is all my speculation as someone who has a lot of respect for game development, but I think I understand.
I think the biggest factor in the smart phone/tablet realm versus consoles right now is, of course, the controls themselves. I couldn't really enjoy a game like Driver: San Francisco, Max Payne 3, or Starhawk without the controls consoles & PCs give me, but I'm sure that difference wont be the case for you considering the platform you're pursuing. The boom in Android/iOs games has also shown what the population at large is satisfied with on a technical level, that not every game needs to be Alan Wake or Battlefield 3 levels of tech to keep people hooked, and I think that goes hand in hand with the modern graphical plateau we're approaching soon.
3- Sorry if I undermined the dedication or effort it'll take to make this next game work, my assumption was that it'd be a less lengthy or large-scale project when compared to a God of War or Twisted Metal considering the company it will be in. I'm sure you guys will be busting your asses to make sure you deliver something great, so best of luck to you. I'm looking forward to whatever you folks cook up.
You gained a fan (didn't agree with the enjoy/fun part though). Now I'm actually interested in your next project. Although I'm sceptical of course, because shooters are an a little crowded genre.
ProfessorMoran
Member
The F2P market is probably more competitive.
Stahsky
A passionate embrace, a beautiful memory lingers.
I've been having a blast with F2P games, and have spent a good deal on some too these last few years. If you can offer me another rich experience with no risk involved, then I can safely say that no matter the genre, I will try it out. I have tried quite a few games recently that I may have never bothered with due to this business model.
I've already put down about 70 bucks on DotA 2, and I don't see myself stopping anytime soon. I will play your game, David. Show me your stuff.
Don't do the F2P model like Blacklight. I hate that model.
I've already put down about 70 bucks on DotA 2, and I don't see myself stopping anytime soon. I will play your game, David. Show me your stuff.
Don't do the F2P model like Blacklight. I hate that model.
chickdigger802
Banned
Gotta side with Jaffe with his thoughts.
For a sec, I thought I was crazy not being impressed at all with the star wars thing. Sure it's pretty, but it looks like a cover based shooter. Watch dog looked impressive, then it just became a shooter. The last of us 'conference demo' looked great, but felt super scripted.
The 2 platinum games (P-100 and Rising) were my Games of the Shows due to them actually looking like fun to play.
For a sec, I thought I was crazy not being impressed at all with the star wars thing. Sure it's pretty, but it looks like a cover based shooter. Watch dog looked impressive, then it just became a shooter. The last of us 'conference demo' looked great, but felt super scripted.
The 2 platinum games (P-100 and Rising) were my Games of the Shows due to them actually looking like fun to play.