ConfusingJazz
Member
Not just losers, but treasonous losers.
Texas School bans Confederate battle flag
- Thread starter Measley
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Not just losers, but treasonous losers.
Learn your history. The uprising was about rich people not being able to expand their empire. The poor were their pawns, as always.
I'm pretty sure the south legally succeeded. But went to war like idiots.
ElectricBlue187
Member
You actually did. I know, I can barely believe it myself.
We live in a country that places military service above pretty much any ideal. It should not be surprising that there are people who value their ancestors military service regardless of whether or not they agree with the racist ideals of the day.
We are. Its cool.
You see some particularly Southern redneck areas such as East Texas (anything East of I-45) will still have them on bumper stickers and stuff, but really not outside that.
As for Buda, Buda is small town (almost suburb) of Austin. In my times driving through there, I have never once seen a confederate flag flying on a house let alone involved in some school function. (Though I have had zero interactions with the school system down there).
In other words, I would not be one bit surprised if this really were a "non" issue and they did it anyway just to do it.
Sure, but a significant part of those beliefs was that black people are property of white people. That's not something to be proud of.
ConfusingJazz
Member
I can see why Buda used to be a haven for southern necks, it used to be a small farming town of little importance between Austin and San Antonio.
With the expansion of Austin, it's quickly turning from a farming community into a suburb, and this is one of those things that changes during that transition in former confederate states.
Well, if the their team is the Rebels (like the OP indicates) then the flag makes sense. Although, that really creates a bigger problem since it creates an uncomfortable situation for kids who want to support their team but not the flag. I guess they can always switch to:
Oh, wait...
Excuse me? I know my history pretty well, thanks. At least enough to know that no, they did not legally succeed, because the Constitution does not give a way for states to leave the Union, and certainly not unilaterally. The Supreme Court confirmed this in 1868.
The government of the Confederacy was an illegitimate collection of treasonous criminals. There was nothing "legal" about it.
Exactly. That's why I think, although it's nice to try to get something good out of the symbol of the Confederate flag, as a whole the flag represents so much more, including really despicable things, so I wouldn't hang the flag in my room because it represents so much more than just an admirable boldness. It represents racism as well.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Well, if the their team is the Rebels (like the OP indicates) then the flag makes sense. Although, that really creates a bigger problem since it creates an uncomfortable situation for kids who want to support their team but not the flag. I guess they can always switch to:
Oh, wait
Gotta get permission from Disney to use that logo.
ElectricBlue187
Member
I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and think he was just making a snarky reply and didn't expect to be called out on it.
No I didn't. I made a flippent remark about the history of a theoretical Southerner (who doesn't actually exist so my assertion he was a slave owner is just as valid as your assertion that he wasn't). You have ascribed far too much meaning to it. If it caused confusion, I'll go ahead and apologize.
Stahsky
A passionate embrace, a beautiful memory lingers.
Buda is so tiny. Might as well be part of Austin at this point. The confederate flag is not a normal thing around Austin and nearby towns. Once in a while you will see one on a car or somesuch, as some other poster mentioned.
But it is good that they handled it properly.
But it is good that they handled it properly.
Living in the South for most of my life, I've heard all the "HERITAGE, NOT HATE!" bullshit reasoning, and it's always come from racist white people. Always. The types who try to whitewash Civil War history, like the South was only fighting for STATES RIGHTS and freedom from Big Govt.
In Lake City, FL, the town celebrates one of the Confederacy's victories. It's crazy
Yup.
In Lake City, FL, the town celebrates one of the Confederacy's victories. It's crazy
Yup.
Whyyoumad.gif
The US government decided Succession was illegal after it happened.
Also, I'm from the South and have never bought a confederate logo'd item.
They was just fightin fer their rights, like any other American woulda. We should all be over that by now.
There is no right to own people.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
This is either completely incorrect or some hilarious technicality that denies the basic essence of what happened.
What actually happened:
- Civil War ends
- Congress passes Reconstruction Act, which does not allow for racial segregation -- during this period, when the south has Military presence, African-Americans can vote, work, etc. De jure something much closer to equality.
- The Rutherford Hayes - Samuel Tilden election occurs, where no one emerges the victor due to disputed votes (both popular and electoral college votes favoured Tilden, Governor of New York). Tilden was the Democratic candidate... at the time Democrats were strong in the south and favoured harsher racial policies versus Republicans.
- The dispute resolution process ends up making Hayes the victor. Scared that Democrats will not accept the results or that violent conflict would erupt, private meetings resulted in the conclusion that Hayes could be elected provided he compromised by ending Reconstruction.
- Hayes ends Reconstruction and withdraws troops from the South, triggering a collapse of several of the Reconstruction laws and the beginning of attacks on the 15th amendment (which forbade voter disenfranchisement on a racial basis).
- Jim Crow laws are passed in every state of the former Confederacy, by their state legislatures. Not the north. Not Northern Republicans. Not the Union.
- Jim Crow laws lead the charge for more formal barriers to integration across other levels of society.
- Although lynching existed everywhere in the United States, it was vastly more common in the former Confederate states, the organizations that largely championed lynching formed in the Confederate states. Lynching did affect whites as well, but it disproportionately affected blacks and was used as a tool of systemic terror and oppression.
Let's zoom forward a little bit:
- Teddy Roosevelt (New York), not perfect on race relations by any means, is relatively progressive. He appoints black civil servants to medium-level civil service positions, despite intense controversy. He moves the public debate on race forward by hosting Booker T Washington for dinner at the White House, although Southern papers openly called him a traitor for doing so. Again, not perfect on race relations, as Brownsville proves, but progressive.
- Taft (Ohio) largely continues this mild progressive stance on race
- Woodrow Wilson (Democrat, Virginia by birth although, yes, New Jersey most recently) immediately puts a stop to this and appoints white southerners pretty near across the board. He is, by all historical counts, an open and vitriolic racist who undermined race relations at the Presidential level.
Let's zoom forward a little bit:
- The Supreme Court strikes down educational segregation in Brown v Board of Education. Which states had educational segregation on the books? Every single Confederate state, as well as the disputed border regions. No Union state still had segregation on the books.
Let's zoom forward a little bit further:
- The Voting Rights Act is passed, which allows the DOJ to force states to forbid de facto vote disenfranchisement of blacks through gerrymandering, unfair registration procedures, etc. It passes the Senate 77-19. The 19 Nay votes came from:
- Alabama (2) <-- Confederate
- Arkansas (2) <-- Confederate
- Florida (2) <-- Confederate
- Georgia (2) <-- Confederate
- Louisiana (2) <-- Confederate
- Mississippi (2) <-- Confederate
- North Carolina (2) <-- Confederate
- South Carolina (2) <-- Confederate
- Virginia (2) <-- Confederate
- Texas (1) <-- Confederate
Every single Nay vote came from a Confederate state.
That was a different time and I don't agree with the really really lame "fuck the south" garbage people get on with here, but I won't stand for history being rewritten. I will grant that a mostly Northern court upheld legal segregation in Plessy, but in general the North's complicity in the active and particularly nasty segregation that occurred in the South is limited to the North capitulating to barbaric and inhumane demands made by the former Confederacy.
ElectricBlue187
Member
I do believe it was Plessy v Ferguson that the poster was referring to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson
which established "separate but equal" as a legal framework.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
By definition that's not the North "introducing" segregation to the South, that's the North conceding that the South's already-extant segregation would continue to operate. It's a reprehensible decision and at the time was a gutless one, and the judges, who were Northerners, are responsible for it--but the South had to pass those laws first, and the South had to end Reconstruction first. The plight of African-Americans in the South was already dire when Plessy happened.
I drive by two houses a lot with them hanging up D:
Fucking red neck soddy daisy, 15 minutes away from a decent sized diverse city with a ghetto. Chattanooga.
It can get weird in tennessee because cities and more rural areas are all throughout it and close.
There are horses down my street and a dude rides them on the road every so often.
Plus we are in the bible belt.
Fucking red neck soddy daisy, 15 minutes away from a decent sized diverse city with a ghetto. Chattanooga.
It can get weird in tennessee because cities and more rural areas are all throughout it and close.
There are horses down my street and a dude rides them on the road every so often.
Plus we are in the bible belt.
Well, to be fair, the flags served a very useful purpose of telling me who to avoid having any sort of interaction with.
It was never legal to begin with, there is no, nor has there ever been, a prescribed way to leave the Union. Ergo it was an unlawful rebellion by traitors.
And good on you, I guess, for not buying anything with a hate symbol on it.
ElectricBlue187
Member
no doubt and "introducing" and union was probably not the right word for it, but it's also wrong to say that the federal government was blameless for the awful stuff that happened as a result of that decision.
Anything short of the impossible dream of recolonization was bound to be a nasty affair after the abolition of slavery but it could've been handled better.
anotherVegan
Member
Any time I see that stupid flag, I just want to find the person and say "Hey, the war ended about 150 years ago."
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
It's difficult for me to blame the federal government--the Hayes election threatened to tear the country apart again, and Southern Democrats held it hostage over ending Reconstruction. Once Reconstruction ended, the Federal government was essentially powerless to keep the southern states in line. I think that a wide variety of people should have done more at various points, but it was only because of deliberate and sustained obstinacy by the South on the issue of the Reconstruction that segregation ever occurred.
Sounds like these guys in Northern Ireland “celebrating” a war 322 years ago. Divisions in society generally have very few logical reasons so bigoted people need to hang on to traditions to keep it alive.
CharlieDigital
Banned
"And you lost!" <--- most important part.
The funny thing about the way the American Legal system works is everything is legal until there is a law against it, unlike those of us under the civil code.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Different strokes for different folks. What offends and what is disrespectful to one person does not hold true for others. I live in Texas and have never owned a Dixie flag but I know more than a few people who do and it's just a pride/rebel thing for most.
Dr.NoiseWater
Member
I think it is denying your history. No matter how foul people view it. It was definetly a part of the lives of the people who fought for what they thought was right. Families were torn apart.
To use the flag as some sort of symbol to be racial is wrong, but I would argue there are certain pieces of history that would like to be remembered during the Civil War. Some have argued Sherman's march could be considered a war crime, but I am not expert on the Civil War. I know it was brutal and ugly and I feel people try to sweep the fact that from 1861 to 1865 there were no Southern states and that isn't true.
To use the flag as some sort of symbol to be racial is wrong, but I would argue there are certain pieces of history that would like to be remembered during the Civil War. Some have argued Sherman's march could be considered a war crime, but I am not expert on the Civil War. I know it was brutal and ugly and I feel people try to sweep the fact that from 1861 to 1865 there were no Southern states and that isn't true.
NintendoRev
Member
Perhaps they're waiting for it to go all horribly wrong one day and they'll somehow win?
Dude Abides
Banned
...that's not how the relationship between the federal government and the states works. This isn't an Ex post facto thing, states can't leave the Union because there is no system for them to leave the Union. Their legislatures can vote as many times as they want to succeed, but it's a meaningless act, because they don't have that power, period, nor did they have it in 1860.
Not everybody who displays the flag is doing so because they're racist.
A lot of people just show it for Southern pride, to represent the 4-wheelin, BBQ'in, shootin cans lifestyle they enjoy.
I agree its in bad taste no matter what, though. They should really find a better symbol.
CharlieDigital
Banned
It's one thing to acknowledge the history, but it's another to celebrate it.
Do you think that Germans should acknowledge their history by proudly flying and identifying with the Nazi swastika?
Pride in being a part of the losing team of rebels that got their butts summarily kicked?
ElectricBlue187
Member
from that wikipedia article
Before 1938, the federal courts, like almost all other common law courts, decided the law on any issue where the relevant legislature (either the U.S. Congress or state legislature, depending on the issue), had not acted, by looking to courts in the same system, that is, other federal courts, even on issues of state law, and even where there was no express grant of authority from Congress or the Constitution.
In 1938, the U.S. Supreme Court in Erie Railroad Co. v. Tompkins 304 U.S. 64, 78 (1938), overruled earlier precedent,[76] and held "There is no federal general common law," thus confining the federal courts to act only as interpreters of law originating elsewhere.
I don't know what you are trying to say here. We can remember that the Civil War happened, and we do, but parading the Confederate flag around on your car or at a football game isn't about that, it's about making a statement.
I'm from Providence and live just outside of Birmingham. This kind of stuff (the thought that the Confederate flag is important to the southern heritage and feelings of pride in the Confederacy) isn't, y'know, rare, but it certainly isn't commonplace. It's still weird as hell when it comes up.
well sometimes it takes the humans a little while to figure out right from correct and good versus legal.
re the confederate flag...I understand why people like it, it's like a historical Calvin pissing statement. We got tha balls to stand up for ourselves you pricks, even though you beat us. You cheated or something so fuck you, Yankee. They could just as easily have another historical touchstone, but instead they have to hold on to the battle flag. I mean they could have even used the national flag of the Confederacy, but this comes from the 1890-1910 period of post Reconstruction and historical revisionism. That Lost Cause guy and the book he wrote, and then the gathering of all final Confederacy soldiers, to shore up the last bit of pride over lost glory they had.
They celebrate something that was stolen, by their ancestors who lived that "heritage", and the fact that they don't get that *today* is why people continue to frown on "The South". And to a person, if you ask those who try to justify "their heritage", they will tell you that it was all peaceful and everyone lived in harmony. That people took care of one another and all were treated like family. And this is my own supposition, the same way they look at the policeman or the sheriff is probably the same way they saw the master or the overseer when it came time to mete out the punishments for violation. It was just "the way things were", I've heard it said. It was life. But it was wrong too. I can't support the usage of a symbol without the understanding of what's behind it. So fuck the "we like to BBQ, lol, but we'll still rise again" bs. The culture needs a reexamination.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Yeah man I am sure they feel deeply hurt about that war they themselves fought over 100 years ago.
Dude Abides
Banned
Yes I'm aware of the Erie doctrine. Article 3 courts aren't the only courts in the land.
Dr.NoiseWater
Member
You may be right, but some of these posts are just as biased and full of slander on the South as the flag they oppose.
CharlieDigital
Banned
Exactly. So they should get over it and put it away and stop being sore losers.
It's generation upon generation of sore losers who haven't given up this idea that they were "rebels" or fighting for "states' rights" (to enslave other humans...).
Put that flag of losers away and stop whining.
USA! USA! USA!
Dr.NoiseWater
Member
Where are you from? I am from Birmingham
He is right, there is no difference between the Confederate flag and the Swastika. The same arguments could be used for why both should be displayed, and they are all equally wrong.
Also, what posts are you talking about?
Anticitizen One
Banned
well thats progress I guess
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