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[Barack Lesnar]

I wish we could see like a making off of these things. Like a developer diaries with the engineers, and understanding their decisions and their vision.

That would be pretty awesome, wouldn't it? Seeing how Sony developed Cell or anything really. I remember when MS showed the prototype 360 designs, I wanna see that type of stuff.

 

[ekim]

Urian, the guy of the spanish blog, suggest that next xbox will use a two SoC/APU, one of those for rendering the current frame and the another one for post-processing. He is speculating based on current known patents but it looks similar to this from semiaccurate forum:

The quote is missing punctuation marks. The 8800 series GPU is the assisting one?

 

[Bluth54]

I wish we could see like a making of of these things. Like a developer diaries with the engineers, and understanding their decisions and their vision.

Read this book, it's really great and pretty much what you're looking for. There is also another book by the same author about the original Xbox.

 

[Karak]

Read this book, it's really great and pretty much what you're looking for. There is also another book by the same author about the original Xbox.

Great book. It clarifies what we are currently seeing right now as well. In all the rumours and randomness that seems to happen. I hope there is another for the next set of systems.

 

[McHuj]

Urian, the guy of the spanish blog, suggest that next xbox will use a two SoC/APU, one of those for rendering the current frame and the another one for post-processing. He is speculating based on current known patents but it looks similar to this from semiaccurate forum:

Isn't Xenos kind of like that? You have the GPU shaders and Texture units on one die and the other daughter die with the Rops, Edram, and some additional logic.

It wouldn't surprise me if MS continue with this route and simply envolved it:

APU: CPU cores + Shaders + DSP
Daughter Die: Much more embedded Ram + Modern Rops + Even more additional blocks to help out with image IQ.

If they can keep all of it on one die instead of two, they can provide very fast bandwidth to the embedded ram from both units.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I wish we could see like a making of of these things. Like a developer diaries with the engineers, and understanding their decisions and their vision.

There was one for the 360 when it launched

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bN_3w75zoE

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

That "3TF" statement sounds so ludicrous. Then again, in such a customized environment where games are developed to such exact target specs, the games would definitely look better than what would be expected from a normal Radeon HD7770.

Yeah that statement does seem far fetched. You're not turning a 1.2 TF card into a 3 TF card with some extra hardware "magic", unless that other hardware adds up to be 1.8 TF itself.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I wish we could see like a making of of these things. Like a developer diaries with the engineers, and understanding their decisions and their vision.

You probably will after they're revealed/released. At the very least I expect us to get a couple interviews like these:

http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Behind+The+Code/Nick-Baker-Xbox-Architecture/
http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Nick-Baker-XBox-360-Architecture

 

[aegies]

Yeah that statement does seem far fetched. You're not turning a 1.2 TF card into a 3 TF card with some extra hardware "magic", unless that other hardware adds up to be 1.8 TF itself.

I think it speaks more to comparative performance against specific hardware. More specifically, it's comparing a part engineered for specific tasks against something that is grossly inefficient at the same tasks by comparison.

Granted, I'm not saying I know how or even if it hits that. But the "comparable to 680 performance" thing is something I'm hearing from enough sources that it sounds like part of Microsoft's official presentation to third parties.

 

[Reiko]

I think it speaks more to comparative performance against specific hardware. More specifically, it's comparing a part engineered for specific tasks against something that is grossly inefficient at the same tasks by comparison.

Granted, I'm not saying I know how or even if it hits that. But the "comparable to 680 performance" thing is something I'm hearing from enough sources that it sounds like part of Microsoft's official presentation to third parties.

What I'm hoping is the next demo of Watch Dogs running on Orbis/Durango matches the performance from the 680 demo.

 

[i-Lo]

I think it speaks more to comparative performance against specific hardware. More specifically, it's comparing a part engineered for specific tasks against something that is grossly inefficient at the same tasks by comparison.

Granted, I'm not saying I know how or even if it hits that. But the "comparable to 680 performance" thing is something I'm hearing from enough sources that it sounds like part of Microsoft's official presentation to third parties.

But isn't this a marketing spiel that is accurate for all closed box systems with (and I have heard this term thrown around here) "thin APIs" for which games would be developed?

 

[aegies]

What I'm hoping is the next demo of Watch Dogs running on Orbis/Durango matches the performance from the 680 demo.

I don't think that's going to be easy to determine, since a) it will assuredly look a little different, because it'll be a year of dev time later, and b) streams aren't going to do it justice.

But isn't this a marketing spiel that is accurate for all closed box systems with (and I have heard this term thrown around here) "thin APIs" for which games would be developed?

I'm saying I'm hearing comparisons to the 680 specifically. Not "it'll be powerful, we promise." They're saying you'll get results comparable to the best single card GPU on the market.

 

[Can Crusher]

You probably will after they're revealed/released. At the very least I expect us to get a couple interviews like these:

http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Behind+The+Code/Nick-Baker-Xbox-Architecture/
http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Nick-Baker-XBox-360-Architecture

I'm def checking that out later.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I think it speaks more to comparative performance against specific hardware. More specifically, it's comparing a part engineered for specific tasks against something that is grossly inefficient at the same tasks by comparison.

Granted, I'm not saying I know how or even if it hits that. But the "comparable to 680 performance" thing is something I'm hearing from enough sources that it sounds like part of Microsoft's official presentation to third parties.

Well, to make the broad claim that a 1.2 TF card is capable of 3 TF of performance is far too broad.

I agree with you that with certain hardware you can accomplish certain graphical results more efficiently for certain tasks, but the comparisons should be tailored to that specific function rather than overall performance.

 

[Can Crusher]

But isn't this a marketing spiel that is accurate for all closed box systems with (and I have heard this term thrown around here) "thin APIs" for which games would be developed?

I believe the point is that some stuff is gonna be rendered by fixed hardware, that is there for specific tasks.

Essentially that must be the future of GPUs right? It's getting harder and harder for GPU tech to evolve. Too much wattage, too much heat.

 

[aegies]

Well, to make the broad claim that a 1.2 TF card is capable of 3 TF of performance is far too broad.

I agree with you that with certain hardware you can accomplish certain graphical results more efficiently for certain tasks, but the comparisons should be tailored to that specific function rather than overall performance.

I don't know how many TF the card inside Durango is. What I can tell you is that it isn't comparable spec/feature/whatever wise to any consumer card out there right now. And more broadly, it's a monster of an SOC, which further muddies the water of any kind of comparison to available tech.

 

[i-Lo]

I'm saying I'm hearing comparisons to the 680 specifically. Not "it'll be powerful, we promise." They're saying you'll get results comparable to the best single card GPU on the market.

Ah, so the specificity is key differentiator here. It'll truly be interesting if they can pull it off. It's also prudent to remember that the 680 outperforms the 7970 in certain games despite have lower FLOP figure so that is indeed quite telling. Thanks.

Also, any word of tessellation capabilities? I remember reading in a comparative review between 680 and 7970 that nVidia cards are better equipped for tessellation. Will the customized GPU in durango remedy this issue?

 

[snoopeasystreet]

There was one for the 360 when it launched

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bN_3w75zoE

That is some grade A allard right there.

Also, everyone except for J looks like the most Microsoft looking Microsoft employees ever.

 

[Iacobellis]

I wish we could see like a making of of these things. Like a developer diaries with the engineers, and understanding their decisions and their vision.

Microsoft did have a video like that. Actually, it came pre-installed on launch 360's along with the playlist of music from bands like Marcy Playground. I liked that a lot.

EDIT: Beaten! Ah, it's all good.

 

[Karak]

Ah, so the specificity is key differentiator here. It'll truly be interesting if they can pull it off. It's also prudent to remember that the 680 outperforms the 7970 despite have lower FLOP figure so that is indeed quite telling. Thanks.

Also, any word of tessellation capabilities? I remember reading in a comparative review between 680 and 7970 that nVidia cards are better equipped for tessellation. Will the customized GPU in durango remedy this issue?

Flops has never been a real-world indicator anyway. People use it when artificially trying to describe a general location of a card in a hardware spectrum compared to other cards. Its a pretty shit descriptor all around to be honest but as you said above seems like people already sort of understand that.

I believe the point is that some stuff is gonna be rendered by fixed hardware, that is there for specific tasks.

Essentially that must be the future of GPUs right? It's getting harder and harder for GPU tech to evolve. Too much wattage, too much heat.

There are a couple branching things going on with GPU's right now. Its going to be really interesting in 2-3 years what a GPU is and isn't.

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

Well if devs are comparing it to 680 then it's probably good enough for next gen. Now we just gotta hope PS4 can match that.

Hopefully the difference is only something like 720 being better at open world games cause of 8gb ram where as orbis is better at action games because of fast ram and multiplatform games will meet in the middle to make it compatible. That's something everyone can live with and it would be more about games/services then hardware.

 

[i-Lo]

Well if devs are comparing it to 680 then it's probably good enough for next gen. Now we just gotta hope PS4 can match that.

Hopefully the difference is only something like 720 being better at open world games cause of 8gb ram where as orbis is better at action games because of fast ram and multiplatform games will meet in the middle to make it compatible. That's something everyone can live with and it would be more about games/services then hardware.

It's amazing that people are still able to reach these types of conclusions. Reminds me of the time when people said that PS3 has better CPU and 360 has better GPU, ergo, PS3 games will have things like better, physics etc AI and 360 games will better graphics, particle effects etc. It was such flawed blanket statement born of distilling certain specification and allying it with conventional understanding. It's the same thing now. Multiplatform games won't make different reservations for both hardware either way and so there will be NO distinction. Devs will make whatever game they want to make and will take different routes to achieve the same goal on both platforms.

Also, neither 8GB nor 4GB (if indeed true) are fully reserved for making games.

 

[Reiko]

It's amazing that people are still able to reach these types of conclusions. Reminds me of the time when people said that PS3 has better CPU and 360 has better GPU, ergo, PS3 games will have things like better, physics etc AI and 360 games will better graphics, particle effects etc. It was such flawed blanket statement born of distilling certain specification to fit conventional wisdom. It's the same thing now. Multiplatform games won't make reservations for both hardware either way and so there will be distinction. Devs will make whatever game they want to make and will take different routes to achieve the same goal on both platforms.

Also, neither 8GB nor 4GB (if indeed true) are fully reserved for making games.

That darn OS getting in the way...:/

 

[Karak]

That darn OS getting in the way...:/

OS's are stupid man.

 

[Reiko]

OS's are stupid man.

Heh. Well those new OS are the reason for extra RAM in the first place.

 

[Karak]

Heh. Well those new OS are the reason for extra RAM in the first place.

Nah. Remove them! Lets go back to cartridges

 

[i-Lo]

Nah. Remove them! Lets go back to cartridges

Imagine if pong could be made in the days when computers still used vacuum tubes.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Well if devs are comparing it to 680 then it's probably good enough for next gen. Now we just gotta hope PS4 can match that.

Hopefully the difference is only something like 720 being better at open world games cause of 8gb ram where as orbis is better at action games because of fast ram and multiplatform games will meet in the middle to make it compatible. That's something everyone can live with and it would be more about games/services then hardware.

No...aegies said Microsoft are touting it as being comparable to a 680.

My worry is with all the DSPs and eSRAM ect, it becomes the next gen PS3 as far as being a nightmare to program for.

I know Microsoft have the best dev tools, but how will third parties react?

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

That's what I said, multiplatform games will meet in the middle and not take advantage of each system's unique features whereas exclusive games will use whatever they can from the system just like they have this gen.

No...aegies said Microsoft are touting it as being comparable to a 680.

My worry is with all the DSPs and eSRAM ect, it becomes the next gen PS3 as far as being a nightmare to program for.

I know Microsoft have the best dev tools, but how will third parties react?

Ahh If it's just microsoft then that opinion may be biased. Companies like to exaggerate their products but we will have to wait and see.

Yea, you did. Somehow I managed to misread the post. Late night's taking toll on my cognitive functions, I'm sorry.

No prob, with all these rumours coming out every week things are getting hectic. Honestly, it's been like an emotional rollercoaster from one day thinking we are getting shit hardware and the next thinking it's powerful.

 

[i-Lo]

That's what I said, multiplatform games will meet in the middle and not take advantage of each system's unique features whereas exclusive games will use whatever they can from the system just like they have this gen.

Yea, you did. Somehow I managed to misread the post. Late night's taking toll on my cognitive functions, I'm sorry.

 

[Reiko]

No...aegies said Microsoft are touting it as being comparable to a 680.

My worry is with all the DSPs and eSRAM ect, it becomes the next gen PS3 as far as being a nightmare to program for.

I know Microsoft have the best dev tools, but how will third parties react?

I heard the devs are very confident with working on Durango hardware.

 

[Karak]

No...aegies said Microsoft are touting it as being comparable to a 680.

My worry is with all the DSPs and eSRAM ect, it becomes the next gen PS3 as far as being a nightmare to program for.

I know Microsoft have the best dev tools, but how will third parties react?

Edited. I read it wrong.

Rieko...bastard you beat me by 0 seconds.

 

[aegies]

That's what I said, multiplatform games will meet in the middle and not take advantage of each system's unique features whereas exclusive games will use whatever they can from the system just like they have this gen.



Ahh If it's just microsoft then that opinion may be biased. Companies like to exaggerate their products but we will have to wait and see.


No prob, with all these rumours coming out every week things are getting hectic. Honestly, it's been like an emotional rollercoaster from one day thinking we are getting shit hardware and the next thinking it's powerful.

Devs will use what is convenient to use. If Microsoft is building the hardware, they feel they have tools that will enable developers to easily use what they're putting in the system. It's what they're best at. And they'll get better over time, sure, but with the 360, devs have been universally positive at the ease of use provided by their tools since the generation began.

I will say that I think we're at the point where if devs felt like Microsoft was full of shit, we'd have heard rumblings about it.

 

[i-Lo]

No it is not just MS making those comparisons. Devs have been.

Rieko...bastard you beat me by 0 seconds.

Are you sure or is it that devs are saying that MS is saying that Durango performance is comparable to a 680?

 

[Can Crusher]

Are you sure or is it that devs are saying that MS is saying that Durango performance is comparable to a 680?

Both.

 

[Karak]

Are you sure or is it that devs are saying that MS is saying that Durango performance is comparable to a 680?

And now I am not sure what he wrote. I read his post wrong Sorry I-Lo.
The only person I talk to is obviously NOT neutral in the discussion

 

[bigtroyjon]

Xbox employee hinting that Smartglass/Wii U type functionality is going to be a big deal for 720?
Seattle Times Tech writer on video game talk at CES

Most of the article is about how 4K will likely be a major focus for PS4 but at the end was this blurb.

On the plane ride home, I sat near a Microsoft employee who works on planning new Xbox products. When I floated my idea about the PS4 piggybacking on the move toward 4K TVs, he said he wasn’t that enthused about 4K TVs.

The Xbox guy was more excited about video-streaming hardware components shown by Broadcom and others. Using the new 802.11ac flavor of Wi-Fi, Broadcom’s new chips can stream content at up to 867 megabits per second. Broadcom refers to this fast wireless as “5G” technology.

I didn’t make it to Broadcom’s booth, but the company was showing how this hardware can connect four tablets to a TV set.

All four could simultaneously stream content, enabling them to be used for multiplayer gaming.

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

Well MS is customizing durango more then Sony is for orbis. I can't imagine ps4 would be hard to develop for now that they switched to x86 architecture. I won't be surprised though if Microsoft initially has better tools since they're more experienced in that department.

 

[Karak]

Xbox employee hinting that Smartglass/Wii U type functionality is going to be a big deal for 720?
Seattle Times Tech writer on video game talk at CES

Most of the article is about how 4K will likely be a major focus for PS4 but at the end was this blurb.

Lets just say that MS is sticking pretty hard to that Powerpoint presentation Or seems to be. Now we just need them to show us some glasses

Well MS is customizing durango more then Sony is for orbis. I can't imagine ps4 would be hard to develop for now that they switched to x86 architecture. I won't be surprised though if Microsoft initially has better tools since they're more experienced in that department.

I think this is great news for Sony in that regard as well.

 

[Ashes]

Weird that I had a dream yesterday about the e3 xbox conference calling the new console by a new name: Xbox 4x2.

8 is infecting my brain... groan...

 

[XtremeXpider]

I guess C++ AMP will be a important thing for Durango.

 

[Reiko]

Weird that I had a dream yesterday about the e3 xbox conference calling the new console by a new name: Xbox 4x2.

8 is infecting my brain... groan...

Would the new Kingdom Hearts be exclusive to Durango? It is the 8th title...

Spoiler

Not happening

 

[Ramblin]

Weird that I had a dream yesterday about the e3 xbox conference calling the new console by a new name: Xbox 4x2.

8 is infecting my brain... groan...

Xbox 2x4 I like it

 

[Hawk269]

I believe the point is that some stuff is gonna be rendered by fixed hardware, that is there for specific tasks.

Essentially that must be the future of GPUs right? It's getting harder and harder for GPU tech to evolve. Too much wattage, too much heat.

True, but the GTX 680 is a lot more powerful than the GTX 580 and consumes a lot less energy and heat. Even though things get faster and such, does not really mean they generate more heat or use more power.

 

[Paracelsus]

True, but the GTX 680 is a lot more powerful than the GTX 580 and consumes a lot less energy and heat. Even though things get faster and such, does not really mean they generate more heat or use more power.

They still generate hot temperatures and they are placed on a dedicated board in a huge ventilated case. Try replicating the same raw power in a plastic box with minimalistic dissipation.

 

[charsace]

Well MS is customizing durango more then Sony is for orbis. I can't imagine ps4 would be hard to develop for now that they switched to x86 architecture. I won't be surprised though if Microsoft initially has better tools since they're more experienced in that department.

Microsoft has always provided devs with better tools. Take a look at XNA and you know that they provide devs with better support and tools.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Vita and PS Mobile both supposedly have fantastic dev tools. If Microsoft's strategy is to hope Sony half-asses the PS4 dev environment they're taking a pretty big risk, especially if they're the ones inventing exotic hardware "enhancements" that may make programming more complicated.

 

[Reiko]

Vita and PS Mobile both supposedly have fantastic dev tools. If Microsoft's strategy is to hope Sony half-asses the PS4 dev environment they're taking a pretty big risk, especially if they're the ones inventing exotic hardware "enhancements" that may make programming more complicated.

Are we really questioning Microsoft making a hard to program console?

 

[Dark_AnNiaLatOr]

Are we really questioning Microsoft making a hard to program console?

You never know. Everyone makes mistakes.

 

[XtremeXpider]

You never know. Everyone makes mistakes.

Remember Microsoft is the maker of not only console dev tools, they are the maker of PC dev tools (Visual Studio) and they has a lot of experience in building tools.