mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Because it's nonsensical to have that running on a Video Game console. Taking up valuable resources. Why? For what? What application will it add being run locally on the console?
[MLiD] PS6 Dockable Handheld Leak: AMD Canis Specs CRUSH XBOX Ally X!
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
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Because it's nonsensical to have that running on a Video Game console. Taking up valuable resources. Why? For what? What application will it add being run locally on the console?
Bojji
Gold Member
It won't be able to play PS5 games without patches.
It will have 0.5GPU power of PS5. "Low power mode" is happening for this exact reason but many games from 2020-2024 will require patches or simply refuse to work.
Radical_3d
Member
Not if they implement a backwards compatibility similar to the wrapper the Xbox is using to upgrade older games to a higher resolution but the other way around.
viveks86
Member
Imagine a matrix game. And you can go to the Oracle and tell her absolutely anything through the in-built mic. She will have a personality, but also the entire world's knowledge at her fingertips. Tell her how Playstation Studios are starting to drop the ball with bleeding edge graphics tech. Tell her games are becoming too long so that companies endlessly farm your engagement, pushing the entire industry to the brink of collapse because no one buys new titles. Tell her the world has become too polarized and we need to find ways to reach across the aisle. Tell her wokeness has gone too far and we don't have to live in constant guilt for mistakes done by ancestors. Tell her all identity politics need to die so we can all just be human again. Tell her inflation is ruining us, greedy corporations need to stop buying up our land and the American dream is basically dead unless you are a DINK working in big tech or an OnlyFans superstar. Tell her we need to stop consuming palm oil because the industry is destroying the last remaining Orangutan habitat and nobody knows about it or gives a shit. Tell her about the endless wars that only serve the people in power.
She will listen patiently and understand. Without the frustrating, anxiety inducing latency of doing all this on the cloud, she will give you some pearls of regurgitated wisdom on why life is still worth living despite all the unrelenting shit thrown at you, directly from your PS6, powered by RDNA5, with a 10B LLM running on 40 Gigabytes of RAM. The path traced cookie she offers will make you feel as right as rain.
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Parazels
Member
This.
People are too focused on a few AAA games, whereas there are tons of good indie-games, classic titles, etc, that can run smoothly even on a little portable Ferrari.
viveks86
Member
Would be unprecedented for Sony to suddenly use a software layer like that. They could have made every PS5 Pro game auto-enhanced by default, if this route was viable/desirable for them. They are extremely conservative about doing anything in software that impacts all games.
Also, I'm imagining UE5 games already running at 540p on base console. Would that be 360p on the handheld? *shudders*
Bojji
Gold Member
Exactly, we don't have fucking 120Hz system wide with vrr and LFC (standard on Xbox and PC for over a decade).
There are also 30fps games on PS5, how they will run?
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DAHGAMING
Kentucky Fried Controller
Dude you can't serve me these jokes on a silver platter, cmon
Who said anything about a joke, look at this shit, I have all the gear setup but instead look at that shit, some big geeza fucking weeping over some handmade mugs and plates ect, that shit goes on the big screen while im dragging myself through Vielguard at 720p on the Rog in my man corner, fuck.
Loxus
Member
PS6 with RDNA5 dual-issue should make it possible and each CU has 2 AI Accelerators.
Possibilities.
Dialogue & story generation, AI-intensive NPCs, companions, emergent behaviors, procedural world generation, dynamic world interactions. The list goes on.
I don't know why you are acting like it's some large scale thing that requires a super computer. These models are small, maybe ~6GB in size and can run on
RTX 3060 Ti.
It's
just a little something to make games feel more alive.It's
Dynamic Dialogue
NPCs no longer rely solely on pre-written dialogue trees. LLMs allow NPCs to generate natural language responses in real time, adapting to player input.
Example: If a player asks a unique question, the NPC can respond appropriately instead of repeating canned lines.
Procedural Behavior & Decisions
LLMs can influence decision-making logic for NPCs: where they move, how they react, or what goals they pursue.
NPCs can exhibit emergent behavior rather than scripted routines.
Context Awareness
LLMs maintain context buffers to remember interactions with the player or other NPCs.
This enables consistent personality and memory, so NPCs "remember" past events, choices, or conversations.
Quest & Story Integration
NPCs can generate side quests, hints, or dynamic storylines based on player actions.
LLMs allow NPCs to act as a dynamic storyteller or guide, adapting narrative flow on the fly.
Adaptive Tone & Accessibility
NPCs can adjust their tone, politeness, or language to match player preferences.
LLMs can also handle real-time localization, making dialogue natural across languages.
But if it makes you happy, next-gen wouldn't have it and we'll just continue to have PS5 games, just at a higher resolution and frame rate.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That's a lot of hardware dedicated to something most devs will never use though.
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Loxus
Member
What are is wrong with you?
It's literally the RDNA4 CU make up.
I swear to god if developers was to ever listen to you guys, we'll be still playing 2D games on the SNES.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
What are is wrong with you?
It's literally the RDNA4 CU make up.
I swear to god if developers was to ever listen to you guys, we'll be still playing 2D games on the SNES.
So how many GBs of RAM would be needed\allocated to allow a local LLM to work on the PS6?
Radical_3d
Member
Except for all their emulators that have, yeah. I'm sure that something that every emulator implements must be unachievable for Sony.
That is a completely different matter.
But they are doing a new system that has nothing to do with anything they've done before. They've stated (on leaks, at least) that the handheld goal is to run PS5 games at 1/3 the bandwidth.
Well, to be fair UE5 only looks good when I see screenshots on my phone, so maybe it'll be the ultimate machine for that engine until Magnus comes out.
At 30fps?
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Bojji
Gold Member
With half the power on GPU, lower memory BW and 4 core CPU?
Unpatched games won't work, you can quote me on that in Q4 2027.
Radical_3d
Member
Yes and yes. Render that shit at 1/3 the resolution and you match the lower spec (BW).
Well if they are doing this configuration is because they'd thought they can run the logic with Zen 6 with half the cores. Otherwise no matter how patched a game would be for the graphics it'll never play the logic. It'd make no sense.
Again. This would make no sense. It'd be a niche product with no appeal due to the lack of enough patches. Do you think SCE is that stupid? Really?
Bojji
Gold Member
Yes and yes. Render that shit at 1/3 the resolution and you match the lower spec (BW).
Well if they are doing this configuration is because they'd thought they can run the logic with Zen 6 with half the cores. Otherwise no matter how patched a game would be for the graphics it'll never play the logic. It'd make no sense.
Again. This would make no sense. It'd be a niche product with no appeal due to the lack of enough patches. Do you think SCE is that stupid? Really?
I'm not sure if SCE is smart or stupid at this point. They earn a lot of money but at the same time don't deliver games that their fans want and make games that no one wants (Concord, Marathon etc.).
Even starting now, with mandatory low power mode, in 2027 they will have A LOT of compatible PS5 games to run on portable. Add to that whole PS4 library + they will patch their biggest PS5 releases from 2020-25. Not bad I think.
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nial
Member
For once, Hulst is not in charge for this. And
Bojji
is actually right, you wouldn't be allowing the 4K PS5 versions to run on a handheld due to the huge, unnecessary workload that would result in, and to scale resolution you will need developer intervention.And even in the worst case scenario, it would not be a niche product, as consumers would be mainly seeking for new games that will be directly developed for the PS6P.
viveks86
Member
Has that been confirmed to be mandatory?
I never said it's not achievable. I said Sony never seems to think it's desirable. If I were Sony, I'd try to pull off exactly what you are suggesting. But I'm not them. You are mixing wishful thinking with how Sony tends to operate. If they actually do what you suggest, that would be awesome. I'm just skeptical that they would.
Like Bojji said, quote me as well in 2027 if no patch is required for existing PS5 games. I would actually be glad to be wrong.
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Loxus
Member
From MLiD, 2-10 GB and so you know, LLMs can run on the Snapdragon X Elite with an NPU with 45 TOPs.
To put in perspective, the PS5 Pro has 300TOPs. The PS6 would most likely more than triple that.
Snapdragon X Elite
Snapdragon X Elite is capable of running generative AI LLM models over 13B parameters on-device with blazing-fast speeds.
Bojji
Gold Member
No idea.
To be honest I think Sony doing another handheld is just stupid idea. We will see.
Loxus
Member
At this moment, any concentration outside of Japan should be on releasing new games.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
So why would any gamer want 2-10 GBs dedicated to LLMs in their console? Many of us thought it was dumb that Microsoft allocated 10% of the GPU and 1 CPU core of resources to the Kinect for the Xbox One. I think reserving say 8 GBs of RAM in the PS6 for a LLM is INSANE!!!!
Even if the PS6 had 40 GBs of RAM. That only increases the price of the console unreasonably.
Do you think it's stupid for Valve to have made the Steam Deck?
viveks86
Member
I've already promised my wife that we can start going to bed early starting Q4 2027. Now my marriage depends on this stupid idea. I can't go back!
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viveks86
Member
I think an LLM will eventually be useful. There is so much else that can be done on the AI front with neural networks and transformer models without needing a language model. That stuff can wait till all other gameplay needs are handled. Like ray tracing, neural rendering, animations, compression, NPC navigation and decision making, boss behavior etc.
Like whatever GT Sophy is doing for GT8, there is a similar use case for AI in every game. Where NPCs are driven by personality, motivations, training and sensory input, instead of prebuilt scripts that we started calling AI since the late 1900s. And LLM is not the right solution for those. Next generation should focus on that first.
Eventually, sure, an LLM has a place for natural interactions, but we should crawl before we fly. There's no point having freeform natural interactions with NPCs that can't even walk from point A to point B without clipping, freezing or tripping over each other or themselves. I'm being a bit facetious as that problem is mostly solved, but there's so much more to do.
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Loxus
Member
Why did Sony think that any gamer would want Ray Tracing that lowers performance in their console or a SSD that made the console even more expensive?
Console gamers don't really care how Sony will utilize the RAM. It's not like the gamer can choose what to put in it.
What was insane was the PS5 having 825GB and you could only use about 667GB of that. That's a whole 158GB not usable by the gamer and you're complaining about 8GB of RAM that the gamer has no use for?
Loxus
Member
I think people are blowing LLMs out of proportion.
All the LLMs is doing is making limited responses to what you do or what you say in the game. That way games aren't as scripted or feel static.
Developers are not going to make some large LLM that goes beyond of their vision or story of the game.
yogaflame
Member
Yes, more exclusives and bring back Sony Japan Studio especially there AA and A exclusive games.
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awwr999999
Member
DualSense PS2 sales will add to the existing PS2's sales just like the 'New 3ds XL' sales added to the other 3ds console's sales.
Separate, inexpensive handheld and TV-based DualSense PS2 consoles (as opposed to hybrid) will boost sales numbers.
All Sony has to do to turn modern gaming upside down is make a vague tweet about PS2 consoles with DualSense.
viveks86
Member
Sure. But an LLM is needed only for what you say. For what you do, there are far more efficient models that can run every frame.
GT Sophy doesn't need an LLM, but it can still make use of the AI hardware.
My point is that basic AI behavior needs to improve before we think about natural interactions.
You really like this Windows Phone comparison (I've seen you bring it up in every conversation surrounding Xbox 's next platform). I don't think it's as good of analogy as you do, but of course, you are allowed to have opinions.
At the start of this decade, Microsoft set out an ambitious goal to reach a billion gamers worldwide. The strategy relied on three pillars the rapid growth of Xbox Game Pass, cloud streaming to multiple devices, and strong adoption of the Xbox Series X/S consoles. Five years later, none of these have scaled as the company hoped. Game Pass growth has stalled and cloud gaming hasn't resonated to a new audience, meanwhile, active installed base of Xbox consoles is estimated to be flatlining around 42 Million players by the end of 2025.
Key takeaways from Gamescom 2025 - Analysis
While an event of this scale inevitably encompasses countless stories, a number of key topics stood out to the Omdia analyst team at this year's show.
ReasonBeing
Gold Member
I got the rare unprompted double reply. Like seeing a unicorn. I still don't find it all that relevant. A different regime over a decade ago says a thing that reminds you of something happening now.At the start of this decade, Microsoft set out an ambitious goal to reach a billion gamers worldwide. The strategy relied on three pillars the rapid growth of Xbox Game Pass, cloud streaming to multiple devices, and strong adoption of the Xbox Series X/S consoles. Five years later, none of these have scaled as the company hoped. Game Pass growth has stalled and cloud gaming hasn't resonated to a new audience, meanwhile, active installed base of Xbox consoles is estimated to be flatlining around 42 Million players by the end of 2025.
Yeah, like I said... Microsoft has fantasies of a "perfect plan for global domination"... And fans of the brand also identify with that, something like "fan of a megalomaniac company, since I feel insignificant"Key takeaways from Gamescom 2025 - Analysis
While an event of this scale inevitably encompasses countless stories, a number of key topics stood out to the Omdia analyst team at this year's show.www.gamedeveloper.com
Edit: I'm specifically referring to your Windows phone comparison that you keep making
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Loxus
Member
Developers and even Sony could be working on LLMs to be integrated into next gen game engines as we speak. The PS6 and games that will utilize it's hardware is years away, 2030 and beyond.
LLMs would inform GT Sophy of the in game world state based on your actions.
Kinda wish Sony would have included a NPU. It would have taken local AI a step further.
It doesn't even have to be large. Something the size of what is on Strix Halo GPU is enough, which is about 4WGP/8CUs in size.
Zathalus
Member
Who cares about increasing PS2 sales numbers? The platform is dead and tens of millions of PS2s have been thrown away or are broken. It's a long dead platform. Nobody today will care about a PS2 handheld in any great numbers.
I mean if the LLM is comprehensive and adds complexity to ai, npc inteactivity, dynamic world, physics , quest lines, persistent npc interactions etc why wouldnt gamers want that? The biggest complaint these past 2 gens is that games have stagnated everything seems samey, worlds have become empty, sterile and boring, physics have become worse and that games are just a remastered version of their last release on higher fidelity.I think gamers would appreciate that far more than just increasing resolution etc.
Also who knows by the end of the gen llm could be intergrated into the visual pipeline aswell. Not to mention youre acting like the 10gb ram will be locked up in some giant safe with a LLm sticker on it. If the developers wont utilize a llm model they can simply use the ram for their own violition. I dont think Sony will lock the ram like for their os.
Not even saying LLm will be a major thing for the ps6 considering how lazy devs and sony have been recently but just straight up slamming down on its potential uses and claiming its useless is just short sighted.
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paolo11
Member
is it possible that based on the leak specs, the PS portable can play 1080p 60fps on ps5 games like ff7 trilogy, ff16 , resident evil 4 , etc?
Mr.Phoenix
Member
More like 2-4GB... it wouldn't need more than that. The PS6... or games AI models would never be running an infinite scale operation. It will always work within fixed, defined parameters.
Bojji
Gold Member
But steam deck is just PC. Valve don't have to do much about it and they don't force any developers to make games compatible with it. Games run at playable framerates or they don't.
Sony will force "low power" mode for PS5 software and maybe even every PS6 game will have to work on it.
And if they don't do that they will be left with Ps Vita 2. They don't have enough resources to support just PS5 with quality games in decent numbers, and with 2 consoles?
YOU PC BRO?!
Gold Member
Serious question… why would Sony run a LLM directly on the PS6 handheld rather than via the cloud? That simply sounds absurd when considering this is a handheld gaming device with limited resource.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
LMM is not going to be used in games the way some seem to think it will. But its essential to how games will be made in the future.
A simple and effective use case, it can handle animation models for characters, but those animations would be based on presets that dictate a character's "personality". It can also be used for environment interaction and contextual animation, like how a character behaves when near a door, peeking around a corner, jumping over a fence., how a character relexively reacts to an explosion or falling from a certain height... etc.
There would be set presets designed by the devs, like rules the AI is to follow, its not going to just be doing its own thing. Hell, it could even be used to map out animation routines for different scenarios in dev kits to save animators from having to do everything themselves, and the animators basically just copy and paste the generated animation code into the build of the game. Kinda like how we had baked lighting. Or think character and NPC facial expressions modelled after a specific actor.
Depends on how this is implemented. If dont right, it owuld be invisible to the devs and nonconsequential to the end user. If done wrong, it will be a disaster.
Game design and hardware is an exact science. And is relatively easily scalable. The problems only come when the scaling factors are not right...eg, with the Series X and Series S.
The advantage sony has, and that xbox should have had... is that they operate in a closed ecosystem. They know what their upper end hardware is, and as such, should know exactly what a lower tier system that can reproduce the same gaming experience with some strong set of predetermined cutbacks should be. Like its an exact science, if you have an x cpu, y GPU, capable at running at z rez and framerate... you should know exactly what you need to do the samne thing at a lowewr rez and framerate.
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viveks86
Member
This is highly likely, but not for the reasons you are speculating. LLMs are perfect for code generation and automation. Imagine LLM driven design workflows where you can describe what you want and the thing just automates the task. Generating textures, animations, procedural routines, scripts, even creating 3d models and worlds. This is the direction all software development will go, so it only stands to reason that game engine and game content development will have LLMs built into their workflows. They can help massively accelerate asset creation. I believe some specific tasks are already being implemented by Tencent. In the long run, developers will just converse with LLMs to get the things they want and then hand tune them after most of the grunt work is already done. Still years out before it's ready for prime time but it will get there. There are a lot of kinks to iron out and we shouldn't fall for the hype. I believe MIT did a study recently that established only 5% of projects where LLMs are being used have actually seen the productivity gains they hoped for. I'm sure it will improve over time. Great minds will keep working on it till it matures.
LLMs running in realtime in-game is a whole different proposition and requires major tradeoffs in what the limited processing and memory should be used for at any moment. It's ok to have them as an assistant, waiting for your input. But having them part of any live game routine would mean continuous and realtime processing and evaluation, something LLMs are not well suited for atm.
The world data for GT Sophy is not represented in natural language. It's pure variables in memory. The biggest strength of LLMs and the reason for their large footprint, is their ability to handle (and remember) free form natural language, image, video and audio. If none of that is input to the model, then there are far more efficient AI methods that can achieve the same results on a much more realtime basis. Purpose built, tiny AI agents for different tasks that can coordinate with each other is how all that will be achieved. So if world data needs to be analyzed and fed to Sophy to make moment-to-moment decisions, such as incoming rain or tyre change strategy, that can be handled by another purpose built agentic AI.
A time may come when GT decides to let us manage Sophy in a b-spec mode. That would be a perfect scenario to introduce an LLM. You can literally manage your racers at that point by talking to them via an LLM layer (if you want). It will give a level of control that may be near impossible to replicate through a UI. But that may be way out in future imo.
What could be a great use case for LLMs in games now would be Deus Ex style titles, where conversations play a big part. Imagine convincing an NPC to give you a key card. Except, you get no selectable options or hints. You literally have to talk to and convince the NPC based on knowledge gathered so far. Since that is prompt based, LLM would be perfect for that. Question is, why bother running it locally if it can just as easily run in the cloud? Millisecond latencies wouldn't matter anyway. This would make the game always online, but that could be the trade off for the gamer. Either experience the coolest version of the game or fallback to traditional prompts you can choose.
And of course, random NPCs can be driven by LLMs so you can have meaningful interactions based on their pre-defined or randomized personalities. But this is a nice-to-have as it's all window dressing that wouldn't affect the core gameplay loop. And of course, this could also be handled in the cloud.
Whenever memory is abundant and cheap, then deploying an LLM on consoles would become trivial. I believe we aren't there yet as there are so many competing priorities and MLiD is bonkers for suggesting otherwise.
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I mean you might be downplaying things, ai has uses for games outside just creation. We had this happening two years ago:
Ai powered physics:
A year back Nvidia was working on active ai powered npcs that respond to each others actions:
That being said, we might not have devs use any of this or push the tech in the PS6 gen, but again, it has its uses, and hardware is there atleast for a partial implementation. Just look at the ridiculous pace of progress in ai tech in the last few years, we dont know the things possible by talented folks that have ambition with this technology. I remember when people were laughing at the very concept of dlss.
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Ashamam
Member
Are you in the habit of making definitive statements with no idea?
viveks86
Member
Not sure if you are referring to my post (or Mr.Phoenix?). No I wasn't downplaying AI. Just saying LLM-based AI is not the solution for everything. Devs need to use the right AI tool for the right problem. Sophy AI is the right tool for the racing problem. It still is AI, but not an LLM. LLM should be used for language problems. And by language, I mean natural human representation of information like text, image, audio, video. So it will certainly have use cases in games. Just don't expect it running locally on a PS6 console. Let alone handheld..
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Bojji
Gold Member
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Sorry was meant for mr pheonix forgot to quote i guess.
Oh, I agree, AI tech is nowhere near the level where the whole game will be designed around or by AI. At the start they can just use it to add interactivity, dynamic npcs, speech, quests etc, variable boss battles maybe and as the gen progresses, hopefully add physics models/simulations to make the world more dynamic. By the end, maybe even certain parts of the visual pipeline could untegrate the tech as well.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Exactly the point I was making tooo.
AI has its uses, but it will be used within certain limits and parameters. Not a it can do everything, so lets put it in there way instead. I mean, it can be used in the SDK to do things and generete certain code, which can then be used in the game. That's why I likened its use case to something baked lighting.
Physiognomonics
Member
It's not half the cores. For games ps5 has 6.5 cores vs 4 for canis or 13 threads vs 8. For BC to occur (not worried about either GPU or bandwidth) they would need to emulate those 13 threads with only 8 (faster threads). I really don't know if it's possible.
pacman4000
Member
Depends on how these games run on PS5.
But lets, as of now, assume that PSP has roughly 50% of PS5 rastering performance.
That means that if a game is rendered at 1440p60 on PS5, lowering the resolution to 1080p (and keeping all other render settings the same) on the PSP will in most cases not be enough. Usually they will need to lower other rendering settings and/or lower the resolution even more.
But lets not forget PSSR, lets say 900p ML upscaled to 1080p will probably look great on that small screen.
And all this is with the assumption that the CPU performance of the PSP is enough to render the said game at 60 fps.
The good thing about PSP is that it has (or at least we assume it has) the same memory capacity as PS5. Avoiding the worst thing about the Series S.
In other words, scaling GPU load is typically easy. Scaling CPU load is way worse. And scaling for lower memory capacity (if the downnscaled gfx, tycally lower texture resolution, doesn't free enough memory) is a nightmare.