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[Ramblin]

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/4/4
Incase you still don't understand it then you should spend sometime scouring the threads on b3d that deals with the 360 edram and ROP. Next time make sure you have your facts before you make factually incorrect statement on something you don't know.

You tell him. This is the internet, you just can't go around typing any goddamn thing you want, it'll be mother fucking anarchy! From now on nobody says nothing about nothing that they don't know nothing about, got it? Then the good quality posts, like my man's here, will get the proper attention it deserves.

 

[ii Stryker]

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/4/4
Incase you still don't understand it then you should spend sometime scouring the threads on b3d that deals with the 360 edram and ROP. Next time make sure you have your facts before you make factually incorrect statement on something you don't know.

So then how conducive is Durango's architecture to support backward compatibility?

my reasoning for this query is that with all the investment MS has made with XBL arcade and Games on Demand it would seem really frivolous and foolish to more or less throw BC out altogether. especially if direct digital, like everyone is predicting, is going to be even bigger next gen.

 

[BruiserBear]

You tell him. This is the internet, you just can't go around typing any goddamn thing you want, it'll be mother fucking anarchy! From now on nobody says nothing about nothing that they don't know nothing about, got it? Then the good quality posts, like my man's here, will get the proper attention it deserves.

lmao

 

[Reiko]

So I guess if I go Sony next gen I shouldn't worry too much about Bayonetta level ports.
Well exept maybe from Bethesda. Can't ask the impossible.

Is it just me or does the specs compared to PS3 look like a huge jump, especially RAM and GPU (I know that you can't compare mhz of the processors or anything but I expect the CPU being the least improvement). What is all the talk about dissapointing specs aboot? What kind of monsters were people expecting.

Some jokers are even using the ''Wii U'' route statement for Durango. I mean do you see the same specs as I do?

Bayonetta is a special case. Few devs will be pushing Transparency Bandwidth: The Game.

 

[scently]

So then how conducive is Durango's architecture to support backward compatibility?

my reasoning for this query is that with all the investment MS has made with XBL arcade and Games on Demand it would seem really frivolous and foolish to more or less throw BC out altogether. especially if direct digital, like everyone is predicting, is going to be even bigger next gen.

I can't say but I think it is possible. The difficulty might arise from the cpu but since the xenon was a multi threaded cpu the durango might be able to do it as it has 8 more efficient cores.

 

[RoboPlato]

So I guess if I go Sony next gen I shouldn't worry too much about Bayonetta level ports.
Well exept maybe from Bethesda. Can't ask the impossible.

Is it just me or does the specs compared to PS3 look like a huge jump, especially RAM and GPU (I know that you can't compare mhz of the processors or anything but I expect the CPU being the least improvement). What is all the talk about dissapointing specs aboot? What kind of monsters were people expecting.

Some jokers are even using the ''Wii U'' route statement for Durango. I mean do you see the same specs as I do?

I think people were expecting that with the extra time between gens that this would be more of a gen and a half leap instead of a normal generational leap. I've also seen a lot of people expecting something like the 360's Xenos to go into these systems, a GPU that blows away a lot of PC GPUs. Both the PS3 and 360 had an insane amount of newly researched tech in them so people may have been expecting far less conservative architectures than these systems seem to have. Last gen was an anomaly and I don't see that kind of thing happening again.

Durango isn't underpowered at all. It's just a bit more modest than Orbis. I do find it kind of funny that, even though I'm planning on getting Orbis day 1, I have a more positive opinion of Durango and the direction Microsoft is going in than a lot of the posters who are planning on getting Durango day 1.

I hope they raise the clocks to 2 Ghz at least for the cpu. 1.6 ghz is pathetic no matter how you slice it. If Cpu cant do it's job then CUs will be used to compensate which means less resources for graphics rendering.

If specs do change from what we have now, I'm expecting it to be the CPU clock speed to improve somewhat. Since it's Jaguar it won't add much heat or power consumption.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Bayonetta is a special case. Few devs will be pushing Transparency Bandwidth: The Game.

I just hope multiplats are much more consistent on Next Gen. Thankfully much more similar architecture gives little room for excuses for bad ports unless the different RAM setups spawn some big problems I am not aware aboot.

 

[Angelus Errare]

You tell him. This is the internet, you just can't go around typing any goddamn thing you want, it'll be mother fucking anarchy! From now on nobody says nothing about nothing that they don't know nothing about, got it? Then the good quality posts, like my man's here, will get the proper attention it deserves.

lmao, this post plus the avatar does it for me.

 

[KidBeta]

I can't say but I think it is possible. The difficulty might arise from the cpu but since the xenon was a multi threaded cpu the durango might be able to do it as it has 8 more efficient cores.

The 360 PPC cores are also radically different to the Jaguar cores in Durango. PPC and X86 are miles apart.

Research before speaking, or be nice like I am.

 

[Karak]

You tell him. This is the internet, you just can't go around typing any goddamn thing you want, it'll be mother fucking anarchy! From now on nobody says nothing about nothing that they don't know nothing about, got it? Then the good quality posts, like my man's here, will get the proper attention it deserves.

clap.gif

 

[scently]

You tell him. This is the internet, you just can't go around typing any goddamn thing you want, it'll be mother fucking anarchy! From now on nobody says nothing about nothing that they don't know nothing about, got it? Then the good quality posts, like my man's here, will get the proper attention it deserves.

He has a habit of downplaying anything that has to do with the durango whether factually based or not. If you need some proof head over to the durango move engine thread. So I do have a reason for saying what I said. You on the other hand.........

 

[scently]

The 360 PPC cores are also radically different to the Jaguar cores in Durango. PPC and X86 are miles apart.

Research before speaking, or be nice like I am.

Yeah no where did I say that it is definitely possible so if you men that as a comeback of sort I think you should try again.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

So I guess if I go Sony next gen I shouldn't worry too much about Bayonetta level ports.
Well exept maybe from Bethesda. Can't ask the impossible.

Is it just me or does the specs compared to PS3 look like a huge jump, especially RAM and GPU (I know that you can't compare mhz of the processors or anything but I expect the CPU being the least improvement). What is all the talk about dissapointing specs aboot? What kind of monsters were people expecting.

Some jokers are even using the ''Wii U'' route statement for Durango. I mean do you see the same specs as I do?

Here's the major problem that I see.

MS is really going to press a specific rendering set up on most developers.

The more information that comes out the more it looks to be pushing tiled based forward rendering.

here's some techdemos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6TUVsmNUKI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DyTk7917ZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M04SMNkTx9E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cLOLE9Tn-g (this is the old larabee demo, but it's believed to be a tile based render aswell)

the major benefits

You don’t have to do a geometry pass over your scene for each dynamic light, like in traditional forward renderers,
You can still use MSAA, unlike most deferred renderers,
Transparency can use the same lighting codepath, unlike deferred renderers,
You can use whatever BRDF you want without the need to squeeze data into a G-buffer and littering your lighting shader with if/elses, unlike deferred renderers, or doing another geometry pass like in light prepass renderers.
It potentially decreases memory footprint over a fat G-buffer.

if MS's machine is specialized for this type of rendering pipeline, then the ports could potentially suffer. The problem is that it limits developer freedom, that said i think they want to specialize d3d so that it can work more homogonously across platforms.

 

[Karak]

He has a habit of downplaying anything that has to do with the durango whether factually based or not. If you need some proof head over to the durango move engine thread. So I do have a reason for saying what I said. You on the other hand.........

Though I don't think anyone but the blind could miss...some posters posts. I think the overall thought of the comment to you was simply- Let the inane post as well. It is more fun that way anyway

Here's the major problem that I see.

MS is really going to press a specific rendering set up on most developers.

The more information that comes out the more it looks to be pushing tiled based forward rendering.

here's some techdemo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6TUVsmNUKI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DyTk7917ZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M04SMNkTx9E

if MS's machine is specialized for this type of rendering pipeline, then the ports could potentially suffer.

Thanks Les! I had not seen all those. Interesting stuff.

 

[KidBeta]

He has a habit of downplaying anything that has to do with the durango whether factually based or not. If you need some proof head over to the durango move engine thread. So I do have a reason for saying what I said. You on the other hand.........

What, when have i downplayed factually based stuff that wasn't already common in the PC space or trivial to implement ?.

Ive only really commented on the DME stuff, and that is to get people back to earth before they think that DMA engines are exclusive to Durango and havent been used for decades.

 

[Kaako]

You tell him. This is the internet, you just can't go around typing any goddamn thing you want, it'll be mother fucking anarchy! From now on nobody says nothing about nothing that they don't know nothing about, got it? Then the good quality posts, like my man's here, will get the proper attention it deserves.

Hahaha, ma man.

 

[Can Crusher]

Here's the major problem that I see.

MS is really going to press a specific rendering set up on most developers.

The more information that comes out the more it looks to be pushing tiled based forward rendering.

here's some techdemos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6TUVsmNUKI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DyTk7917ZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M04SMNkTx9E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cLOLE9Tn-g (this is the old larabee demo, but it's believed to be a tile based render aswell)

if MS's machine is specialized for this type of rendering pipeline, then the ports could potentially suffer. The problem is that it limits developer freedom, which i think MS is actually wanting. They want to specialize d3d so that it can work more homogonously across platforms.

I don't see how the GPU in Orbis wouldn't be able to use this to its advantage. Hell the first video is running on a 7900 series gpu...

 

[scently]

Here's the major problem that I see.

MS is really going to press a specific rendering set up on most developers.

The more information that comes out the more it looks to be pushing tiled based forward rendering.

here's some techdemos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6TUVsmNUKI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DyTk7917ZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M04SMNkTx9E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cLOLE9Tn-g

if MS's machine is specialized for this type of rendering pipeline, then the ports could potentially suffer. The problem is that it limits developer freedom, which i think MS is actually wanting. They want to specialize d3d so that it can work more homogonously across platforms.

Personally I think developers will consider the technical abilities of these system and design their engine based on it. Their job will potentially be easier because of the similarities on both systems. For example if you read the paper by DICE on how they went about developing BF3 on the 360 and ps3 you will see a lot of differences. The ps3 for example performed most of the tile based differred rendering, culling, lighting set up and what not mostly on the Cell, while the majority of the work on 360 was done on its gpu,but at the end of the day they both produce similar result on screen.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

I don't see how the GPU in Orbis wouldn't be able to use this to its advantage. Hell the first video is running on a 7900 series gpu...

i never said it would, I'm just saying that if MS prioritizes d3d and hardware for that specific method, then ports could potentially suffer.

Personally I think developers will consider the technical abilities of these system and design their engine based on it. Their job will potentially be easier because of the similarities on both systems. For example if you read the paper by DICE on how they went about developing BF3 on the 360 and ps3 you will see a lot of differences. The ps3 for example performed most of the tile based differred rendering, culling, lighting set up and what not mostly on the Cell, while the majority of the work on 360 was done on its gpu,but at the end of the day they both produce similar result on screen.

I agree, but i'm considering smaller teams, who usually build for one console then port.

 

[Can Crusher]

i never said it would, I'm just saying that if MS prioritizes d3d and hardware for that specific method, then ports could potentially suffer.



I agree, but i'm considering smaller teams, who usually build for one console then port.

How would they go about prioritizing hardware for that specific type of rendering though?

 

[les papillons sexuels]

How would they go about prioritizing hardware for that specific type of rendering though?

well, the data move engine for starters.

 

[KidBeta]

well, the data move engine for starters.

Which are DMA units, which Orbis will have. Maybe without JPEG compression but thats not going to break the bank with GPU thats 50% faster.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Which are DMA units, which Orbis will have. Maybe without JPEG compression but thats not going to break the bank with GPU thats 50% faster.

did you read the article at the start of this thread?

So does the GPU difference translate into as large an advantage as it sounds? VGleaks' Orbis spec, again derived from platform holder documentation, suggests that four of these CUs are reserved for Compute functions, conceivably bringing the PlayStation's raw advantage down from 50 per cent to just over 16.

 

[KidBeta]

did you read the article at the start of this thread?

You understand that compute can be used for graphics right?

everyone here understands that yeah?

or am i the only one?, cause it seems that i am.

 

[Razdek]

You understand that compute can be used for graphics right?

everyone here understands that yeah?

or am i the only one?, cause it seems that i am.

You're the smartest person on the internet, congrats.

 

[AgentP]

Which are DMA units, which Orbis will have. Maybe without JPEG compression but thats not going to break the bank with GPU thats 50% faster.

I'm not sure the GCN DMAs are the same as the move engines, but I don't see too many details on the DMAs.

http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/GCN_Architecture_whitepaper.pdf

GCN is the first architecture to use PCI Express™ 3.0 for interfacing with the host processor. Discrete GPUs based on GCN, such as the AMD Radeon™ HD 7970,
use a x16 link, which provides 32GB/s of bandwidth. This CPU to GPU interface is a bottleneck particularly for general purpose workloads, where massive data
sets are moved between the two processors. GCN has dual bi-directional DMA engines, so that two streams of data can simultaneously use both directions of
the PCI Express™ 3.0 link and efficiently use the available bandwidth.

The DMA engines are one area where AMD's experience with x86 microprocessors has paid off. GCN incorporates an I/O Memory Management Unit (IOMMU),
which can transparently map x86 addresses for the GPU. This means that the DMA engines in GCN can easily access pageable CPU memory, without the
overhead of address translation, to move data. The IOMMU is a step towards tighter heterogeneous integration and will evolve over time.

 

[KidBeta]

You're the smartest person on the internet, congrats.

Awesome is there a prize involved?.

Do i get a parade?, a badge?, a hat atleast?.

I'm not sure the GCN DMAs are the same as the move engines, but I don't see too many details on the DMAs.

http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/GCN_Architecture_whitepaper.pdf

Yeah you won't find a lot of details on it at all. Its all under NDA/etc.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I guess I'll ask the question everyone has been wanting to ask.

What colors are the consoles going to be?

 

[Reiko]

I guess I'll ask the question everyone has been wanting to ask.

What colors are the consoles going to be?

Black. Because if they want profits, it should be.

 

[demolitio]

I guess I'll ask the question everyone has been wanting to ask.

What colors are the consoles going to be?

I imagine a glossy black for PS4 maybe with a slight blue color similar to some of their bluray players.

I doubt Durango will be all white this time unless it's really sexy and shiny. Black is always the safest as to not turn certain people off but white isn't bad if done right.

I can't wait for the unveil, but it won't solve any problems on here since people are going to debate to the end of days on the subject no matter what. People will see what they want to see and only accept certain rumors if it supports what they want to believe and then discredit the ones they don't like regardless if it's the most common. The idea of arguing over something so early over rumors is bad enough, but some people take it way too personally for some reason.

In the end, gamers win. Even PC gamers. No one is a bad person for liking one or the other and plenty of factors go into a purchase, but barely anything is known at this point and people are already taking sides in the Great Gaming War.

 

[Karak]

I imagine a glossy black for PS4 maybe with a slight blue color similar to some of their bluray players.

I doubt Durango will be all white this time unless it's really sexy and shiny. Black is always the safest as to not turn certain people off but white isn't bad if done right.

I can't wait for the unveil, but it won't solve any problems on here since people are going to debate to the end of days on the subject no matter what. People will see what they want to see and only accept certain rumors if it supports what they want to believe and then discredit the ones they don't like regardless if it's the most common. The idea of arguing over something so early over rumors is bad enough, but some people take it way too personally for some reason.

In the end, gamers win. Even PC gamers. No one is a bad person for liking one or the other and plenty of factors go into a purchase, but barely anything is known at this point and people are already taking sides in the Great Gaming War.

An on this day the Great Historian Demolitio also became a prophet.
Cause ya. That is actually pretty much it in a nutshell.
I guess the only thing you could have added is that ignored lists may break Neogaf all by themselves

 

[BruiserBear]

did you read the article at the start of this thread?

Did you selectively edit that quote to leave out this important part?

So does the GPU difference translate into as large an advantage as it sounds? VGleaks' Orbis spec, again derived from platform holder documentation, suggests that four of these CUs are reserved for Compute functions, conceivably bringing the PlayStation's raw advantage down from 50 per cent to just over 16. However, while Compute is often used for elements like physics calculations, there's nothing to stop coders hiving off specific graphics features to this hardware - Just Cause 2, for example, used NVIDIA's own Compute solution, CUDA, for enhanced water effects, while a core element of Battlefield 3 - the deferred shading solution that power its beautiful lighting - is handled via DirectX 11 Compute shader code.]

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Did you selectively edit that quote to leave out this important part?

not at all. all alu's in the 360 can be utilized for compute if need be.

 

[Reiko]

Damn... B3D just shot down a thread speculating on the 4 CUs in PS4 being used as "magic sauce".

http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=63049

Does everything have to be straightforward with Durango or Orbis? We need quirks. It would make the architecture of both of these consoles boring in design.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Makes sense...there's nothing magical about them, it's pretty straight forward.

not at all. all alu's in the 360 can be utilized for compute if need be.

I doubt that'll help with 360 ports much.

 

[Glorified G]

Seems like developers just have more flexibility with those 4 CU's. They have the option of using all 18 for rendering or taking 4 of them for other tasks, like physics.

 

[KidBeta]

not at all. all alu's in the 360 can be utilized for compute if need be.

Then why are you suggesting the newer architecture of Orbis cannot do the same thing?

 

[Orayn]

Seems like developers just have more flexibility with those 4 CU's. They have the option of using all 18 for rendering or taking 4 of them for other tasks, like physics.

Wasn't it was implied that the 4 CUs weren't "full power" when used for rendering? Might have just been bad wording, but that's what it sounded like.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Wasn't it was implied that 4 the CUs weren't "full power" when used for rendering? Might have just been bad wording, but that's what it sounded like.

It was implied that they are slightly more powerful than normal CUs for rendering purposes

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Then why are you suggesting the newer architecture of Orbis cannot do the same thing?

I'm not, and never had (what do you mean by newer?), I'm saying that the move engines are specialized for the transfering of lossess texture and jpg compression, it's specifically designed for the transfer of tiled texture data/memory. Tiled forward rendering is a potential application that can benefit from it.

IF MS is looking to emphasize those specific techniques, then potentially the ports could suffer.

 

[Glorified G]

Wasn't it was implied that 4 the CUs weren't "full power" when used for rendering? Might have just been bad wording, but that's what it sounded like.

The wording seemed vague. It said it the 4 CU could be used for a 'minor' boost for rendering. 4 CU compared to 14 could be considered minor. The word 'minor' is where people are having different interpretations. It's possible either way.

 

[Brad Grenz]

I'm not, and never had (what do you mean by newer?), I'm saying that the move engines are specialized for the transfering of lossess texture and jpg compression, it's specifically designed for the transfer of tiled texture data/memory. Tiled forward rendering is a potential application that can benefit from it.

IF MS is looking to emphasize those specific techniques, then potentially the ports could suffer.

If Durango benefits disproportionately from such techniques, it's because its starts from a position of being far less efficient than Orbis doing the same work. Let's say switching to a tiled approach can take a game on Durango from 30 fps to 60 fps. Doing the same thing on Orbis might take you from 80 fps to 90 fps. Just because it doubled the Durango's performance, and only bumped up Orbis a modest percentage doesn't mean it runs better on Durango because they didn't start at the same place. That kind of tiling specifically addresses performance roadblocks that Durango has, but Orbis doesn't.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

If Durango benefits disproportionately from such techniques, it's because its starts from a position of being far less efficient than Orbis doing the same work. Let's say switching to a tiled approach can take a game on Durango from 30 fps to 60 fps. Doing the same thing on Orbis might take you from 80 fps to 90 fps. Just because it doubled the Durango's performance, and only bumped up Orbis a modest percentage doesn't mean it runs better on Durango because they didn't start at the same place. That kind of tiling specifically addresses performance roadblocks that Durango has, but Orbis doesn't.

orbis is not stronger then durango by some fucked up factor your imagining.

 

[Brad Grenz]

orbis is not stronger then durango by some fucked up factor your imagining.

Just math.

 

[Angelus Errare]

orbis is not stronger then durango by some fucked up factor your imagining.

It's power level is maximum.

 

[enzo_gt]

Black. Because if they want profits, it should be.

I DEMAND ANONYMOUS SOURCES TO BACK UP THIS CLAIM

 

[KidBeta]

orbis is not stronger then durango by some fucked up factor your imagining.

50% more ALU (maths!)
50% more Text
100% more ROPs.

Little bit faster memory.

Same CPU.

Thats where we sit at the moment.

 

[Massa]

Awesome is there a prize involved?.

Do i get a parade?, a badge?, a hat atleast?.

 

[Reiko]

Just math.

Unless you know the full components of both consoles... It's not that easy.

Because I sure as hell don't.

 

[majik13]

There is a typo there. I think you meant 'sauce'.

woah, ha, I actually read it as that.