the foreshadowing in this game is brilliant.
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
the foreshadowing in this game is brilliant.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Yes, very well done and crafted brilliantly. I suspect going through the game again will really help tie together any questions/loose ends. EVERY part of what you experience plays a role. Sounds, sights, etc...
Vire
Member
I posted this in the other thread... but worth repeating in a spoiler free environment.
Pretty amazing religious commentary in the opening five minutes of the game that may fly over people's heads. A bit shocking even.
When you first get to Columbia there is a preacher speaking about the Prophet using the common Jewish sentiment Deyanu meaning "it would have been enough". This is taken from most Passover sedar haggadahs where it talk about God delivering the Jews from Egypt. Ironically, Passover was yesterday and I actually just had a sedar where we recited the words of Deyanu, so it hit especially close to home. Nonetheless, very interesting.
Pretty amazing religious commentary in the opening five minutes of the game that may fly over people's heads. A bit shocking even.
When you first get to Columbia there is a preacher speaking about the Prophet using the common Jewish sentiment Deyanu meaning "it would have been enough". This is taken from most Passover sedar haggadahs where it talk about God delivering the Jews from Egypt. Ironically, Passover was yesterday and I actually just had a sedar where we recited the words of Deyanu, so it hit especially close to home. Nonetheless, very interesting.
Some boys take a beautiful girl
And hide her away from the rest of the world
I want to be the one to walk in the sun
Oh girls they want to have fun
Oh girls just want to have....
Are you a religious person?
An if so, did you see the symbolism in the ending the way I did?
I'm a christian orthodox, and I couldn't help but see all the religious symbolism with regards to the end.
Yeah, just Bravo to Ken.
Probably the most well thought out narrative since Planescape: Tormnent.
Honest to god. The foreshadowing, the small little details in the narrative, using the music as a type of foreshadowing, and this isn't just for 1 hour of the game, and stops.
This continues all the way though from the start to the very end.
God damn.
Voice of Reason
Banned
Wait, so what universe is it when Booker actually goes to Columbia to find Elizabeth?
Voice of Reason
Banned
There was also a part where some blonde lady calls Elizabeth "Annabelle" and Liz is like "wtf"
Vire
Member
I am a reformed Jew. Not deeply religious, but I definitely use it as a spiritual guide in my life.
What did you see in the ending?
As kind of a "hidden" message about baptism in general.
God=Elizabeth. One who can see the future, the past, and knows everything and anything
When Elizabeth drowns booker, she's essentially baptizing him. The final track when this occurs in the game is also titled "baptism"
When you see Booker return back to his office, it could be seen as if Booker was atoned for his sins that he commited upon Elizabeth and the sins he commited at Wounded Knee and was allowed to restart a holy life once again, free of sin.
Thus being a message about Baptism, in any religion, and the message of forgiveness and atonement.
Voice of Reason
Banned
For moment I was also convinced Elizabeth was Comstock's wife, as after she was mentioned as Annabelle, you encounter a portrait of his wife with her name "A. Comstock"
The final words from the youtube explanation video are really interesting to think about.
We all played the same Bioshock Infinite, in the same universe, we just all took different paths and choices throughout it and branched off into one of the millions of possible realities.
It is incredible how even when I first found out about it, the name of the game seemed nothing more than a cool title. Infinite.
We all played the same Bioshock Infinite, in the same universe, we just all took different paths and choices throughout it and branched off into one of the millions of possible realities.
It is incredible how even when I first found out about it, the name of the game seemed nothing more than a cool title. Infinite.
Vire
Member
Same. I would have loved for someone to tape my reaction to that.
I think I literally my jaw was literally on the floor.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Did you catch the name of the Barber shop quartet? "God Only Knows". It's a Beach Boys song...
Some great stuff there.
"The mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist..."
In this alternate universe, Booker A doesn't have the same memories because Booker B became Comstock. Therefore he recreates how he has to sell Anna to clear his debt to cope with lack thereof.
Also...fun fact: Coincidentally the human model for Elizabeth on the front cover of Bioshock Infinite is named Anna!
edit: beaten like Li Chen in the first multiverse
Moff
Member
i dont get the ending.
how does it smother anyone?
were not killing dewitt before the baptism. that happened a ling time ago. player dewitt has made his choice and were killing this one.
would it not have made more sense to open a tear to the actual baptism and see the original pre-choice dewitt and kill this one?
the way we see it now, it looks lije there were never alternare realities at all, but dewitt became zacharias after the events of the game, which would make no sense at all.
how does it smother anyone?
were not killing dewitt before the baptism. that happened a ling time ago. player dewitt has made his choice and were killing this one.
would it not have made more sense to open a tear to the actual baptism and see the original pre-choice dewitt and kill this one?
the way we see it now, it looks lije there were never alternare realities at all, but dewitt became zacharias after the events of the game, which would make no sense at all.
Vire
Member
"The mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist..."
In this alternate universe, Booker A doesn't have the same memories because Booker B became Comstock. Therefore he recreates how he has to sell Anna to clear his debt to cope with lack thereof.
Also...fun fact: Coincidentally the human model for Elizabeth on the front cover of Bioshock Infinite is named Anna!
Yeah, I surmised as much. I'm still not crazy about it, but that's okay. I still very much enjoyed the story.
The thing I'm confused as hell about.. If there are millions of alternate realities, and what's done is done, will be done and has already been done... How can drowning the "now" Booker have any impact because surely he is still turning into Comstock in one of the other realities?
Time travel man
Time travel man
I really wanna run through the game again so I can find out what happened to some of the minor characters. One of the great joys of Bioshock 1 was to explore around and figure out what happened to some of the lesser characters in audiologs, such as Jack's Mom, Dr. Suchong, Anna Culpepper, etc.
I don't think I ever got the fate of Constance, the little girl; Comstock's biographer; and the bounty hunter that trapped the little boy in his bear trap.
I don't think I ever got the fate of Constance, the little girl; Comstock's biographer; and the bounty hunter that trapped the little boy in his bear trap.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
indigo-cyclops
Member
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
I think one of the theories is that Liz takes Booker "outside" of the Infinite "loop" spawned by baptism event, which leads to some universe's Comstock time travelling into some other Booker's universe and taking Anna.
By taking Booker back to where the Split decision happened which rent the universe, Liz smothers Booker to prevent the choice of accepting/not accepting the baptism from ever happening.
Thus, the only Booker to 'survive' in the post-epilogue scene is the one who went on without getting baptized, and later had Anna.
It obviously has major holes, but it's one of the better ways I've seen it explained.
Never actually thought of the baptism/smothering of Booker to symbolize one 'final' baptism that lets him 'wash' his sins of Wounded Knee/becoming Comstock away, that's really interesting.
I don't think this is correct. Religion didn't cause Booker to change into Comstock, nor (if you extrapolate out every event) is it the only scenario where he took the Comstock name and became the version of that man presented as the antagonist in the game.
If I had to guess, the false absolution of guilt is the culprit. Religion is just a very appropriate wrapper for that sort of motif. Elizabeth killed that incarnation of Booker at the end, she ended his place in that time line in a very symbolic way, because she loved him and she wanted to forgive him, but ultimately she couldn't. She didn't actually change anything, she just closed up that timeline. There's also a timeline where she didn't kill him, one where he killed her, one where Comstock killed them both etc.
The only constant presented in this timeline scenario is the event that created the change, which was whatever he did at wounded knee. Some events are just so big they become folding points in the universe and become branching paths, which is what you see here. The needle has been placed on the record after the events of wounded knee for the sake of storytelling. If you push all the way out there's a world where he never went there, a world where he did something equally as terrible and followed the same basic path etc. It's impossible to communicate that wholly though, so you need to stick the needle in a groove somewhere to accomplish anything.
The reason a religious person would be upset with this game is because it points out how silly, ineffective, and misguided religion as a whole (even though it was heavy on Christian themes) is.
indigo-cyclops
Member
This. The split happens after the baptism, which is then compounded thereafter. Before Booker is "baptized and reborn" he is drowned, thus "Comstock" never exists in the first place. Comstock/Booker are one-in-the-same but of different worlds.
Also, aren't we to believe that Booker "sold" Anna, and then was in need of repentance? Meaning, the baptism happens after the initial act of his giving up Anna?
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Can't freaking believe I missed this
razgriz417
Member
I totally yelled "Holy shit!" in my apartment at 3am when that happened. Was so giddy, loved the ending, now time to cull through this whole thread lol
Did I skip over a level or something? Because I don't remember any of that.
Okay, finished, and I've got a lot of ground to cover.
The Markings on Booker DeWitt's hand: The obvious answer is Anna DeWitt - but we're never told by Booker himself what the markings mean. Before the reveal, I was fairly certain the AD stood for "Alternate Dimension." Which makes sense since, in almost the entire game, you are not in your world. You die several times in the game, namely in the introduction during the baptism and in the few encounters with the Songbird, and each time you are revived in a "dreamworld" (which is in fact the dimension you came from) you open the door - thereby opening another dimension where you live.
Furthermore, the logic of the game suggests that you can only die in the dimension you came from - which explains why in the end game you have to go back to before Comstock's baptism (thereby killing both DeWitt and Comstock), and also explains why people become disoriented and bleed from the nose when they're in a different dimension. They can SENSE their own death. Kind of freaky.
As far as parallel universes, you can see plenty of references to it in the game. There are several NPCs in the world that come in pairs, and beyond that it seems every character has its foil. Anna DeWitt is the same as Elizabeth. Booker DeWitt is the same as Comstock. Booker's dead wife is the same as Comstock's dead wife (appropriately, both died because of the child).
I can see how Booker's atonement gave way to racism. He forgave his sins at Wounded Knee by playing up the importance of the battle through racial superiority. It's worth considering that at the time it wasn't even an especially unpopular opinion to have...and those that have suggested Mormonism was the inspiration seem to be pretty on point.
And, finally, the game explains game theory (one of OP's mains criticisms with the game), and it's game mechanics through this parallelism. Vigors may not have as close of narrative tie for their inclusion...until the end, when you learn that all of our universes are tied in interrelatable in idiosyncratic ways. That alone makes the ties to Bioshock so much more palatable. I feel bad for the people in the Bioshock Infinite thread who are going in having not played Bioshock 1, because...even though it may not seem that big of a deal, it's a huge part of appreciating the game's intricacies.
Elizabeth is similar to the little sisters. An integral part of the world's structure, guarded by a giant that can both be amicable and sinister. The Songbird and the Big Daddies both have glowing eyes that indicate their level of friendship, are related to animals from their world (Daddies are based on whales, Songbirds on...birds). "Circus of Values" are in there. At one point, Liz crawls into a vent. The Letuces' talk about two sides of a same coin...and this seems to be a literal realization of that analogy.
The final parallel is real life. Bryce Dewitt is a physicist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryce_DeWitt
Anthony Comstock is a Victorian moralist who preached cleanliness of character while ignoring the seedy underside of life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Comstock
Sorry for the disjointed post. Had to get it out.
Gross.
The Markings on Booker DeWitt's hand: The obvious answer is Anna DeWitt - but we're never told by Booker himself what the markings mean. Before the reveal, I was fairly certain the AD stood for "Alternate Dimension." Which makes sense since, in almost the entire game, you are not in your world. You die several times in the game, namely in the introduction during the baptism and in the few encounters with the Songbird, and each time you are revived in a "dreamworld" (which is in fact the dimension you came from) you open the door - thereby opening another dimension where you live.
Furthermore, the logic of the game suggests that you can only die in the dimension you came from - which explains why in the end game you have to go back to before Comstock's baptism (thereby killing both DeWitt and Comstock), and also explains why people become disoriented and bleed from the nose when they're in a different dimension. They can SENSE their own death. Kind of freaky.
As far as parallel universes, you can see plenty of references to it in the game. There are several NPCs in the world that come in pairs, and beyond that it seems every character has its foil. Anna DeWitt is the same as Elizabeth. Booker DeWitt is the same as Comstock. Booker's dead wife is the same as Comstock's dead wife (appropriately, both died because of the child).
I can see how Booker's atonement gave way to racism. He forgave his sins at Wounded Knee by playing up the importance of the battle through racial superiority. It's worth considering that at the time it wasn't even an especially unpopular opinion to have...and those that have suggested Mormonism was the inspiration seem to be pretty on point.
And, finally, the game explains game theory (one of OP's mains criticisms with the game), and it's game mechanics through this parallelism. Vigors may not have as close of narrative tie for their inclusion...until the end, when you learn that all of our universes are tied in interrelatable in idiosyncratic ways. That alone makes the ties to Bioshock so much more palatable. I feel bad for the people in the Bioshock Infinite thread who are going in having not played Bioshock 1, because...even though it may not seem that big of a deal, it's a huge part of appreciating the game's intricacies.
Elizabeth is similar to the little sisters. An integral part of the world's structure, guarded by a giant that can both be amicable and sinister. The Songbird and the Big Daddies both have glowing eyes that indicate their level of friendship, are related to animals from their world (Daddies are based on whales, Songbirds on...birds). "Circus of Values" are in there. At one point, Liz crawls into a vent. The Letuces' talk about two sides of a same coin...and this seems to be a literal realization of that analogy.
The final parallel is real life. Bryce Dewitt is a physicist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryce_DeWitt
Anthony Comstock is a Victorian moralist who preached cleanliness of character while ignoring the seedy underside of life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Comstock
Sorry for the disjointed post. Had to get it out.
Gross.
The baptism is said to be after Wounded Knee, so it would be his acts of war he wants forgiven.
Whilst I may have missed out on some stuff. I played the first couple hours of Bioshock 1 before this came out (Don't worry I'll finish it at some point) but I'm thankful for at least having started it, because it made it all the cooler seeing the beginning area at the end, and having it loop back.
I bet there is even more in there, we just gotta dig harder.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Ah ok, misheard something then. Thanks.
ThaiGrocer
Member
He seems like a guy that you would eventually discover running a twisted sex dungeon in his basement. To be fair, a lot of people looked that way back then.
DeWitt.
The Elite
BOSS
DeWitt. As in his daughter.
Willkiller
Banned
Pretty incredible to think all the Bookers you see running around the lighthouses are basically just other players in their journeys. We all end up in the same place but the variations, the weapons we use, how much backtracking we do, that's all on us.
the way i saw it, liz took booker to one of the many multiverses where he's about to get baptized. this would essentially become another version of where booker chooses to either get baptized and reborn as comstock, or to run away and become the booker he is today. Instead, they choose to drown him under water, which causes a branch in the parallel universes making one where booker isn't alive to influence Columbia.
one thing I was wondering was what if the many Liz's didn't disappear because they ceased to exist, but disappear because they were returning to their own universes?
they're featured in various the voxophones scattered about
SaberVulcan
Member
Yeah its pretty ingenious. The siblings bantering on the boat went from being white noise while watching the pretty water to "holy shit foreshadowing". Same with the baptism speech.
As soon as I heard that Irrational was flaunting that it was causing controversy over how upsetting the concepts of the story were, I had a terrible feeling that it was going to be very disappointing in that regard.
Lo and behold, here I am, disappointed with the tone of the world and characters. I know that 1912 was not a very subtle time for America and how it dealt racism and god, but I hoped that Infinite would have something to add to the discussion ( actually I hoped they would have handled it a bit more tastefully instead of just shoving it in front of me at every turn).
Everything but the scientific part of the narrative was handled with ham fists, and the science part was too obscure for a large part of the game.
I didn't care about Elizabeth that much as a character, she sort of meandered in the role of the victim and sometimes explored other character options for a bit, she definitely made it more entertaining as a companion. She wasn't that great as an expositional character, as both Dewitt and her had little perspective on any of the events of Columbia.
Comstock wasn't very engaging with his appeals to morality as a reason to do every bad thing in the game, I simply don't have a good perspective on what morality is for Christians in 1912. Everyone just came off as Tea Party caricatures of today, which I felt was the easy route that Irrational could have taken with the characters.
To add, I felt that the world did a great job of presenting itself as a place with a secret as to why it was successful, but I found the answer to be very uninteresting.
Lo and behold, here I am, disappointed with the tone of the world and characters. I know that 1912 was not a very subtle time for America and how it dealt racism and god, but I hoped that Infinite would have something to add to the discussion ( actually I hoped they would have handled it a bit more tastefully instead of just shoving it in front of me at every turn).
Everything but the scientific part of the narrative was handled with ham fists, and the science part was too obscure for a large part of the game.
I didn't care about Elizabeth that much as a character, she sort of meandered in the role of the victim and sometimes explored other character options for a bit, she definitely made it more entertaining as a companion. She wasn't that great as an expositional character, as both Dewitt and her had little perspective on any of the events of Columbia.
Comstock wasn't very engaging with his appeals to morality as a reason to do every bad thing in the game, I simply don't have a good perspective on what morality is for Christians in 1912. Everyone just came off as Tea Party caricatures of today, which I felt was the easy route that Irrational could have taken with the characters.
To add, I felt that the world did a great job of presenting itself as a place with a secret as to why it was successful, but I found the answer to be very uninteresting.
The Elite
BOSS
Slightly edited my own theory to reflect the death of the Luteces. Completely forgot about that originally. Also edited out the part where I thought Anna got her powers from having her finger cut off. That sounded silly and it was obvious they ran a multitude of experiments on her.
That's a great way to look at it.
Sounds like you were constantly comparing it back to Bioshock rather than comparing it uniquely towards it's own unique merits.
The Elite
BOSS
I think it stays the same in both versions.
The game gives you the illusion of choice but it seems all outcomes are the same. It's one of the major themes.
Nope. Always a cage. Because the point is that the word "CAGE" is actually the four musical notes for the song (C, A, G, E). I and R are not part of the musical scale.
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