SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion

I don't understand one thing:

When Booker is Comstock, why is Comstock so much older than Booker?




Oh, and one thing I just realised: In the museum, where they have this Boxer rebellion- and Battle at Wounded Knee-sets, it says on a plaque that Comstock was born ca. 1870. I thought it was weird, considering he looked like in his 70s at 1912, but when it's actually Booker, it makes sense. Considering Booker is around 40 years old.
 
so, a few things:

- if the letuces need you to travel to columbia & undo everything they've caused, why do they start your journey so far away from everything?

- bar one voxophone where fink says he sees a world full of creatures that are part man, part machine (sounds like rapture's big daddies to me), was the songbird elaborated upon at all?

- any explanation on why a few tears where red rather than blue? was it just a game thing to show they were different & music-related?

& finally, a silly idea i had: elizabeth says she used to be able to create tears, rather than just find & open them. assumedly she then gets that power back. what if the entire end sequence was a creation of elizabeth, to punish booker for abandoning her for the months or weeks or whatever it was?
 
First ghost fight was easy because the AI glitched out and after summoning one or two hoards she just stood there and let me shoot round after round into her stupid ghost face from a balcony.

Second ghost fight was right as hell as I was strapped for ammo and the ghost's close range powerup could hit you through walls (eg: if she was under the walkway you were on).

Third ghost fight was manageable due to better cover than the second allowing me to take her down from a distance.

In all three cases chain shock proved to be very useful, as you could stun an entire group of soldiers right after they were summoned.
 
I don't understand one thing:

When Booker is Comstock, why is Comstock so much older than Booker?




Oh, and one thing I just realised: In the museum, where they have this Boxer rebellion- and Battle at Wounded Knee-sets, it says on a plaque that Comstock was born ca. 1870. I thought it was weird, considering he looked like in his 70s at 1912, but when it's actually Booker, it makes sense. Considering Booker is around 40 years old.

Comstock was rapidly aged via the Lutece's machine which is extremely hazardous to one's health.

EDIT: And it was mentioned pages ago but not posted/quoted so here's my timeline of events if anybody was looking for it/one (and as mentioned I'm still not sure of the specifics of the second jump's universe). How accurate it is I'm not certain but it makes sense for me:

bioshockinfinitetimel19ine.png
EDIT 2: I just realised that the second universe you accessed through the tear comes from a different timeline because of Slate's death and as a result here's the updated one: http://www.abload.de/img/bioshockinfinitetimeldyewz.png
 
Don't know if it's because I was a wuss and played on normal but all 3 ghost fights were quite easy (especially the bank one). Was telegraphed quite a bit and you have around 5 or so seconds to get yourself set and Vigor spam. Devils Kiss seams to do the most damage to Lady Comstock and Shock Jockey for the undead. The most challenging sections I found were the 3 or 4 Boy of Silence battles due to the amount of enemies and the very cramped space. What Gear you have equipped plays a massive role in how you deal damage and how you recover. Might play around a bit more on my current run.
 
lots of people travel through the tears and dont have powers, the more likely reason is because she exists in two dimensions simultaneously her finger in one, the rest of her in another. maybe this connection between dimensions eventually evolved stronger and stronger due to her early age and the experimentation they did to her. booker for example jumped dimensions and doesnt have any powers.

There is a vox-recording thing by Lutece which pretty much confirms that Liz's powers derive from her being in 2 dimensions at once - the universe doesn't like it's peas mixed with its carrots, or something like that :)
 
The voxophone is in her lab I believe.

The one that is in her lab mentions his sterility (well, there's multiple ones that reference it) and a previous one mentions his cancer (I believe it's the one in Momument Island) but the final Voxaphone in the game (Rosalind Lutece is the speaker) mentions that "the Lutece Field/tear has aged him so quickly" and she comments on how other Bookers are fit so it cannot be genetic. She then comments that the difference must be exposure to the machine and concludes that it warrants further study.

It's Voxaphone 80 so I'm unsure if they have been uploaded to Youtube yet but if they have, that's the one you're looking for.

There is a vox-recording thing by Lutece which pretty much confirms that Liz's powers derive from her being in 2 dimensions at once - the universe doesn't like it's peas mixed with its carrots, or something like that :)

"What makes the girl different? I suspect it has less to do with what she is and more to do with what she's not. A small part of her remains from where she came. It would seem the universe does not like its peas with its porridge." (Monument Island, Rosalind Lutece)

I had misinterpretted the first time too but yes, it's almost certainly because of her little finger remaining in one while she lives in another.
 
There is a vox-recording thing by Lutece which pretty much confirms that Liz's powers derive from her being in 2 dimensions at once - the universe doesn't like it's peas mixed with its carrots, or something like that :)

Basically Liz is a living wormhole.
 
That or Ken Levine retires from the industry. He pretty much hinted as much in a few interviews that you probably won't see anything new from him in a long while, if at all.
If that's the case I declare Singularity is Bioshock 3. It's really the closest a game has felt to the Bioshock series, well, forever.
 
Why do people theorize Songbird being Booker? I have no idea what Songbird is, but never in my wildest imagination would I think he's somehow Booker.
 
Why do people theorize Songbird being Booker? I have no idea what Songbird is, but never in my wildest imagination would I think he's somehow Booker.
Yeah I'm not seeing it at this point. I assume Songbird existed before Bookers first attempt at rescuing Elizabeth.
 
I must say, the game left me pretty disappointed. The level design was pretty linear, especially considering the original Bioshock. I felt like the themes of the world were not properly explored, especially the racism angle. The uprising was particularly poorly thought out. And, of course, it was a exercise in jarring ludo-narrative dissonance.

From a game design perspective, I missed some of the depth offered in the original. The plasmids in the original where way better designed and actually had uses outside of combat.

The twists were nice, I guess. But nothing mindblowing. The world itself was nicely realized, although not at all believable for me.

The final battle was super bad, as you had to wait until the zeppelins dropped their troops before you could blow them up. How frustrating. I specifically timed the Songbird call so I would have my next strike available as soon as the zeppelins showed up. Well, tough shit. Wait until we drop our troops on your ass. Not a single moment earlier.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot. The Lady Comstock plot was terrible and resulted in 3 broken ass, identical bossfights.
 
It's kind of fascinating how many people believe they were presented a choice during the coin flip sequence in the opening, just going off of this thread. But then again, the mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist...
 
It's kind of fascinating how many people believe they were presented a choice during the coin flip sequence in the opening, just going off of this thread. But then again, the mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist...
I don't remember making a choice, Booker just calls either heads or tails right?
 
The one that is in her lab mentions his sterility (well, there's multiple ones that reference it) and a previous one mentions his cancer (I believe it's the one in Momument Island) but the final Voxaphone in the game (Rosalind Lutece is the speaker) mentions that "the Lutece Field/tear has aged him so quickly" and she comments on how other Bookers are fit so it cannot be genetic. She then comments that the difference must be exposure to the machine and concludes that it warrants further study.

It's Voxaphone 80 so I'm unsure if they have been uploaded to Youtube yet but if they have, that's the one you're looking for.
.

But why don't the Luteces age that way?




But how could Booker activate the "lift" in Rapture? He has to be related to Ryan somehow.
 
HOLY FUCK. I just realized Booker is Ryan.

1: Booker can activate the bathysphere. Only a Ryan and Jack can do that.

2: In the optional house near the beginning of the game there's a woman giving a description to the police. The portrait the police artist draws is Ryan.

Edit: And both are killed by their own children.

mindesplode.gif

You're assuming the Rapture we saw in infinite is the same from Bioshock. It could be one where those restrictions never happened, or it could be set before Rapture descended into chaos and Ryan hasn't locked down the bathyspheres yet. It could even be after Ryans death.
 
What was the sea mines about? After you go through the second tear, as you're about to leave the police station, there are mines scattered about (there's two by the exit there and others dotted around). Some link to Rapture? (Incidentally, I saw a phonograph with a record, and on the recorsd label was 'Rapture Recordings' but that was just an easter egg I'm guessing).
 
You're assuming the Rapture we saw in infinite is the same from Bioshock. It could be one where those restrictions never happened, or it could be set before Rapture descended into chaos and Ryan hasn't locked down the bathyspheres yet. It could even be after Ryans death.

It's totally after Jack was there cuz the debris where you enter Rapture is already cleared out and everything is delapidated.
 
In Bioshock it was revealed the DNA coding for the bathyspheres wasn't exactly foolproof anyway.

We're putting all the bathyspheres in lockdown until further notice. Ryan had us install some kinda genetic device into the things so only Ryan and his inner circle will be able to use 'em without dispensation. But the boys tell me the keys are pretty unreliable. Sisters, cousins-anybody in the ballpark, genetically, will be able to come and go as they see fit.

If you only need to be loosely related it doesn't mean much. Booker doesn't have to be Ryan or Jack, a distant relative will work just the same. Reminds me how useless fingerprint scanners are and how easily they can be fooled.
 
Can anyone explain the significance of Lady Comstock to me, other than her being in the game to fleshen the story out a little bit?

Comstock marries her on Columbia, then kills her in a rage attack. Iirc she's only there to let Elizabeth think she's her mother and later on to aquire her fingerprints to open the gate, resulting in the spirit who leads you to 3 tears for whatever reason. Also, why did Comstock want to use Elizabeth to resurrect Lady Comstock, other than to use her as an obstacle?

I feel like the story would've been just as good without Lady Comstock, and that she was just written into the story as a little bit of filler, but I might be missing something here.
 
The music where Booker tries to get back baby Elizabeth is heartbreaking. That whole scene really wants to make me cry.

Just finished it. I am a 29 year old generally jaded gamer who just found out he is expecting his first child. I'm not sure that had anything to do with it, but I actually fucking cried.

Feeling a little bit side swiped right now.



Not afraid to admit it. That made me cry actual tears.
 
One thing I'm starting to waver on here is how Elizabeth/Anna got her abilities. I think it has less to do with the finger being split between two universes and more to do with the Luteces experimenting on her at a young age, at Comstock's request.

Just watched the Sea of Doors again. That ending is going to give me chills for a long time.

There is a voxaphone from Lutece that strongly suggests that Liz's finger being caught in the tear grants her power over the dimensions.
 
So I just completed the game and my mind is full of fucks. Had to semi-rush at the end there, so some facts slipped through for me.

Anyway, why doesn't Booker remember key facts about his past? And who were the ones who really sent him out on the mission to bring the girl back?
 
so there's an infinite number of bookers prebaptism, but they somehow congeal into a single universe where he's killed in all of them?
This was probably definitely responded to already but I want to sleep soon, so Ima reply before before finishing the thread.

This is my confusion exactly. Everything building up to his drowning suggest that he must die to prevent the multiverse of choices that happen as a result of his baptism (or lack thereof) because in one of them all the comstock fucked up space time continuum shit goes down, but if there exists a world for every decision ever, does that not mean that a world exists where the drowning didn't occur making the whole killing him to stop Comstock redundant?

I almost feel the post credit scene kind of suggests this, hinting that nothing changed, everything is cyclical. Booker remains, which means somewhere Comstock does too and Elizabeth will again get super god powers
 
Just finished. Didn't even really understand the baptism/division thing until I checked this thread and saw the map. So glad the ending is its own chapter. If I had to protect that goddamned airship every time I wanted to relive it, I'd baptize myself, come back as the mayor of Boston, take over Irrational Games and --

OH MY GOD
 
I just wanted to get it straight. Comstock was an alternate reality Booker where he went through with the baptism. He went crazy and became ultra religious/jingoistic/etc and created Columbia. He uses this reality hopping power to steal a daughter from another younger Booker because the realty hopping has made him sterile. Lady Comstock was just a plant to fool Elizabeth into thinking the Comstocks were her parents.

And Songbird was there to keep Elizabeth in the tower? Just an over the top security system?
 
Fuck I hate games that do this. The story is so vague throughout and then bam, batshit crazy town. Fun game but the story was just strange.
 
Why do people theorize Songbird being Booker? I have no idea what Songbird is, but never in my wildest imagination would I think he's somehow Booker.

Songbird is basically a Big Daddy, Big Daddy's goal was to keep the little sisters safe in Bioshock, and in Bioshock Infinite its the Songnbird that safekeeps Liz. That's how I see it.

I also recall listening to some audio log which talked about seeing other realities making stuff possible so I'm guessing he stole that idea and its creation. Think it was Fink. He also said it was half man half robot too.
 
I just wanted to get it straight. Comstock was an alternate reality Booker where he went through with the baptism. He went crazy and became ultra religious/jingoistic/etc and created Columbia. He uses this reality hopping power to steal a daughter from another younger Booker because the realty hopping has made him sterile. Lady Comstock was just a plant to fool Elizabeth into thinking the Comstocks were her parents.

And Songbird was there to keep Elizabeth in the tower? Just an over the top security system?
Lady Comstock was supposed to be the bearer of the lamb but Comstock was sterilised by "the contraption" before this could happen. But since he prophesied it he pretended it happened that way anyhow.
 
Can anyone explain the significance of Lady Comstock to me, other than her being in the game to fleshen the story out a little bit?

Comstock marries her on Columbia, then kills her in a rage attack. Iirc she's only there to let Elizabeth think she's her mother and later on to aquire her fingerprints to open the gate, resulting in the spirit who leads you to 3 tears for whatever reason. Also, why did Comstock want to use Elizabeth to resurrect Lady Comstock, other than to use her as an obstacle?

I feel like the story would've been just as good without Lady Comstock, and that she was just written into the story as a little bit of filler, but I might be missing something here.

Lady Comstock is very important in the story.

Basically, Comstock marries her (she is also extremely devoted to him) and becomes sterile due to the machine. Comstock murders his political opposition and she realises it which makes her question Comstock's divinity. Comstock attempted to have a child with her to allow Columbia to survive but was unable to do so due to being rendered sterile; he never realised he was sterile and asked for an affair with the female Lutece who declined. He used the Lutece's machine to take Anna, his child from an alternative universe, whose mother died during childbirth, to him. Lady Comstock made the obvious assumption that Comstock had an affair with the female Lutece and, even after they explained the reality, she could barely accept it; she concludes that Comstock is a monster. Comstock begs her for her silence since she is able to shatter the entire facade that he has created but, being both highly religious and highly moral, she cannot promise him silence (which would not lead to attonement) but only forgiveness. This promise sets into motion almost the entire chain of events as it forces Comstock to murder both her and the Luteces (which Fink attempts to make look like an accident by sabotaging the machine and trapping them in the timeline). This murder then frames Daisy Fitzroy who then leads the Vox. Basically the catalyst for a significant amount of events, particularly those related to the Vox.

In addition:
In the Booker-verse his wife dies in childbirth. In the Comstock-verse there is no childbirth to kill her. I assumed that they are the same woman in each verse. This explains why they look alike.

This also seems to be a very logical conclusion and creates an even greater irony in the chain of events surrounding Lady Comstock.

As for the resurrection, I think that was just it. It was pretty much just to use her as an obstacle for them (or at least I don't think there's any greater explanation).

EDIT:
But why don't the Luteces age that way?
Comstock desired to make the Luteces' death look like an accident and hired Fink to sabotage the machine, thinking that it would kill them. Unfortunately for Comstock, it trapped them in the timeline which is why they can be everywhere. If you mean why haven't they already aged prior to the machine's sabotage I would have to imagine it's because neither of the Lutece's used the machines as thoroughly as Comstock did. It's possible that they both had been effected already but since the machine was sabotaged and they are trapped in the timeline it doesn't have an effect on the plot of the game and is therefore ignored. If they continued to use the machine though it's a very safe bet that they would have suffered similar consequences (I'm not sure if this is mentioned in a Voxaphone, I missed one Voxaphone and I cannot recall any conversation about this so maybe it was mentioned, I'm not certain).
 
Finished this last night. Was a pretty good game. But I kept wanting to go an play the original bioshock instead. That game just felt like it was better in all aspects.

Setting in infinite was interesting at the start, but after a while it kinda felt like they didn't do much with it, yeah there were airships and a lot of clouds, but that was kinda it. It didn't ooze with the atmosphere of being a cloud city in every nook and cranny like rapture did.

The linearity of the game was a pretty dissapointing as well considering the more open levels of bioshock. It was standard fare move from point a to b to c, etc.

Enemy encounters were vastly inferior to the ones in bioshock. It's bassically just wave after wave of enemies in infinite, felt very inspired by dragon age 2 in that regard...

The handymen as well were absolute crap compared to big daddies. Dunno if it was because I played on hard, but the vigors pretty much did fuck all to them, crows stunned them for maybe 2 seconds. They just felt stupidly strong, it was impossible to get distance on them since they can jump an infinite distance and height it seems, so even if I jumped on the rails and went to the other side of the combat area, they would be right in my face again within seconds, knocking me back and draining all shield + some health in one go. Every handyman fight bassically boiled down to me kiting like a mad man for 10 minutes while getting a few shots off here and there.

Compare that to the Big Daddies were you could set up a ton of plasmid traps and shit in a room, maybe hack some turrets as well. Then go and aggro the big daddy, lure him into your awesome trap, and then unleash hell on him, they were still strong, but at least they were reasonable strong, with limits.

The vigors, there are fewer vigors than there were plasmids in bioshock. And from my experience most of them were quite useless on hard. Fire and Lightning vigors were pretty much pointless, too little dmg and effect. Much easier and better to just spam possesion. That way you create a distraction, and you're guaranteed at least one dead enemy. Charge is another one that didn't really feel very useful, if you're fighting agains't 1-3 guys, it makes no sense to use it over possesion. If you're fighting more than that, you're sure as fuck not gonna want to charge right into them.

Bassically I stuck almost exclusively to possession and the bucking bronco vigors for the entirety of the game. Why wouldn't I? Possession works on fucking every thing except handymen, and bucking bronco allows me to suspend a ton of enemies in the air for a long period of time, and is pretty much spammable.

The story was probably the only really good part of infinite. It was very interesting, well-written and not corny. Though I saw the "twist" about dewitt being combstock coming from miles away, felt very obvious considering the whole multiverse theme they were doing. A shame really that they couldn't match the would you kindly twist from the original bioshock. But that does seem like a pretty unrealistic goal.

Overall I feel like Bioshock Infinite felt a bit like a game where they had a lot of boxes they needed to check. But didn't really have the drive and passion to make the things in those boxes truly great. Unlike the original Bioshock, which just felt like such a passion project where everything was made by people that just fucking loved the game they were making.

So yeah, that's my oppinion of the game. Dunno if this will attract a lot of angry people, since it seems like this game is extremely well liked by most people. Just keep in mind this is just how I feel personally :P
 
Guys, any idea what the song is that plays during the scene where Booker reneges on the trade and struggles in vain to get baby Anna/Elizabeth back? It's a Schyman original for the game.
 
OK, I finished it, and that was amazing, but I've spent the past two days trying to understand it and I'm still not sure I do.

For a start, why do people think the story is a loop? Surely the multiverse theory denies that?

Secondly, I assume that there are some constraints on the multiverse theory, right? As in there are constants that remain the same, like how baptised booker will always become Comstock? Does that not mean that the possibilities aren't truly infinite?

Finally, and this is the thing that bugs me the most, why does killing our Booker denies the possibility of a Comstock being born? The Booker that we're playing as has already experienced the baptism, so he is essentially just returning to the place where he could have become Comstock, not reliving the same event. Gah. So confusing.

Spectacular game though, I have a feeling we'll be talking about this one for a long time
 
I don't understand one thing:

When Booker is Comstock, why is Comstock so much older than Booker?




Oh, and one thing I just realised: In the museum, where they have this Boxer rebellion- and Battle at Wounded Knee-sets, it says on a plaque that Comstock was born ca. 1870. I thought it was weird, considering he looked like in his 70s at 1912, but when it's actually Booker, it makes sense. Considering Booker is around 40 years old.

On this point, they made it overwhelmingly obvious that Booker was Comstock which sucked. I wish they removed the thing in the loading screen that showed Booker was born in 1874, when it clearly says Comstock was born in 1874 in the Hall of Heroes. This, coupled with the fact that Comstock would only be 38 in 1912, basically screams at you that something is up. So I was not surprised at all when it turned out Booker was Comstock. Still a great twist to me but they shouldn't have signposted it so obviously.
 
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