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[Raide]

Thing is, its taken the PC years and years to get to this point where people don't care about the Steam DRM. From cardboard discs, the certain lines on certain pages, to CD-Keys and beyond. At launch Steam was an awful pile of crap but they kept on updating it and now its pretty much the savior of PC gaming. Gamers gave them the benefit of the doubt and Valve ran with that.

Why has console gaming not been given ample enough time to prove if the DRM could work in a similar fashion? MS tried to start something and the backlash was massive.

 

[Nikodemos]

Surprised Jim brushed over GMG's capsule trade ins.

Probably because it's no longer a heavily-advertised part of their site. It used to be the core of their pitch, but with the proliferation of so many games, big- and small-budget requiring 3rd party DRM to function, it kinda fell to the wayside. That said, it still works, and I even did a bit of pseudo-stocktrading recently when I traded back some games I had bought a long while ago for something like $0.99 a piece, and got a decent sum on them.

 

[Xater]

Jim continues to be great in these videos. And yeah this should not need to exist in the first place. To me it is obvious how the dynamics on the PC platform work and why prices for example are what they are. At least now we finally have a video that sums it all up, so people can point to it.

 

[jokkir]

Thing is, its taken the PC years and years to get to this point where people don't care about the Steam DRM. From cardboard discs, the certain lines on certain pages, to CD-Keys and beyond. At launch Steam was an awful pile of crap but they kept on updating it and now its pretty much the savior of PC gaming. Gamers gave them the benefit of the doubt and Valve ran with that.

Why has console gaming not been given ample enough time to prove if the DRM could work in a similar fashion? MS tried to start something and the backlash was massive.

I think it goes with Jim's point of not needing to dish out a lot of money to switch to other services like from Steam to GOG. Even if Steam was crappy at first, that's not really your only option. You could have stuck to physical discs but with the Xbone, you're stuck with it with no other option to switch.

Or I could be all wrong lol

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Good video although I feel differently about the DRM situation on PC as for me convenience and cheaper prices aren't a big enough advantage to make DRM acceptable. But that's just me. I understand why many accept or even like Steam & Co and why it's not the same as the Xbone DRM how it was planned.

A game being on Steam doesn't necessarily mean it has DRM, pubs/devs have the option of not implementing it. You can check this by trying to run the game executable without Steam loaded. There are also places that offer no-DRM game releases like GOG.

 

[Sentenza]

Great video but I have one point to raise.

Many digital storefronts like GMG, Amazon, etc. largely function as Steam key sellers.

Steam does have a pseudo monopoly on PC gaming.

There are non-Steam options (Jim mentioned GOG), but the competition among many retailers revolves mostly around selling keys for one client/site/platform

But Valve has virtually no control on pricing and it doesn't take any cut from a sale unless the game was sold directly from their store, which makes quite easy to understand why other resellers don't mind it too much.

 

[Trogdor1123]

certainly do enjoy Jim. Very informative and still very listenable.

 

[Sethos]

I enjoyed PC gaming as I grew up. Many great PC exclusive games and lots of multiplatform games. I don't really see how PC gaming was shitty a few years ago.

Then you obviously missed a large part of the pre-Steam era where the PC was at the verge of a dehydrated death. It wasn't all smooth sailing since the golden Duke Nukem, Starcraft, Doom, CS era up until Steam.

 

[Grinchy]

Reminds me of a cross between The Penguin and Koopa a Goomba from the Mario Brothers movie.

Great video though.

 

[Froli]

I love drinking coffee when there is a good video to watch lol. Awesome stuff Jim!

 

[Raide]

I think it goes with Jim's point of not needing to dish out a lot of money to switch to other services like from Steam to GOG. Even if Steam was crappy at first, that's not really your only option. You could have stuck to physical discs but with the Xbone, you're stuck with it with no other option to switch.

Or I could be all wrong lol

I think Steam paved the way for stuff like GoG and GMG, since they pretty much throw Steam codes around like candy. Everything filters back into Steam, despite there being other content options.

Hell, would would probably still have the majority of retail games with big ass manuals in them if it were not for Steam.

 

[Jhriad]

Jim kills it again. Just wish all the press members I've heard say, "But it's essentially Steam right?" would get it through their heads why that's not an apt comparison.

 

[mug]

He makes a valid point but wow he sure is annoying how he expresses it.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Finally jim explaines what a lot of people are not knowing about the difference of pc gaming and consoles.

Another very good episode jim! This man is so awesome.

You know, I think Jimquisitions are my new favorite internet thing. For there to be so many people lacking critical thinking skills who don't understand the difference between the PC market and the console market is truly baffling.

As always a really good episode that says everything that I've been thinking/saying.

 

[Mithos]

Bravo!

 

[TheExodu5]

Why does The Escapist get away with charging for mobile access?

 

[Delusibeta]

Great video but I have one point to raise.

Many digital storefronts like GMG, Amazon, etc. largely function as Steam key sellers.

Steam does have a pseudo monopoly on PC gaming. Some people don't mind since Steam offers many useful services. Others are reticent of tying all their games to one service.

There are non-Steam options (Jim mentioned GOG), but the competition among many retailers revolves mostly around selling keys for one client/site/platform

Steam has a monopoly on PC gaming DRM. Pretty much the only other DRM out there is publisher-exclusive systems, such as Origin and Battle.net. Steam does not have a monopoly on PC gaming sales, since Valve doesn't take any money on any Steam sales not made in the Steam store.

 

[RionaaM]

Watching every even only vaguely DRM and 180 related thread fill up with the steam defense was infuriating. Thank you, Jim.

It is a sad state of affairs indeed when we gamers are so easily divided on such basic issues. This should have been crystal clear from the beginning.

But it was the other way round: every thread about the Xbone with the old DRM had several "So it's just like Steam" posts.

 

[BigDug13]

Great video but I have one point to raise.

Many digital storefronts like GMG, Amazon, etc. largely function as Steam key sellers.

Steam does have a pseudo monopoly on PC gaming. Some people don't mind since Steam offers many useful services. Others are reticent of tying all their games to one service.

There are non-Steam options (Jim mentioned GOG), but the competition among many retailers revolves mostly around selling keys for one client/site/platform

Yeah but they're still allowed to sell them at different prices. Borderlands 2 on STEAM was $49.99 for preorder while I was able to get it for $37 on GMG preorder, and sometimes Amazon digital has the lower price for the STEAM code. None of that exists on console digital titles.

 

[The Cowboy]

It's worth mentioning that gamers didn't give Steam the benefit of the doubt. That service was HATED for its early period, basically a necessary evil to play CS and HL2. They had to prove themselves under a cloud of negativity and they pushed through. So it should surprise no one that Microsoft doing this, and without outlining any tangible benefits, was going to go down poorly with gamers.

People get pissed when buying a product gives them more grief than it used to. Until Steam was a benefit, gamers were NOT happy. Without HL2 basically forcing millions into Steam, and without the subsequent improvements to the service, it likely would have gone down in flames.

Indeed, I remember well when I was basically suckered into Steam by HL2. If people don't remember, no magazine mentioned (at least in the UK) the steam requirement in the reviews of the game and unless you kept track of the game via websites you didn't find out until you opened the box and read the single sheet of cardboard that told you to install it (by which time you could no longer get a refund on it - PC game = no refund due to CD keys).

The box did indeed say the game required the internet in very small writing, but stores at release assumed it was for the advertised on the back of the box CSS - I remember after so many complaints the EB in Lincoln (where I lived at the time) had to put up a sign at the counter specifically stating the game required the internet to install (and run) the game due to how many came back to return it.

Good times and how times have changed. I hated Steam with a passion back then (largely due to how I was introduced to it and the 56k modem I had to setup to use it) , now I actually have hundreds of games on it and quite like it.

 

[Bittercup]

A game being on Steam doesn't necessarily mean it has DRM, pubs/devs have the option of not implementing it. You can check this by trying to run the game executable without Steam loaded. There are also places that offer no-DRM game releases like GOG.

I know that not everything has DRM on Steam or PC in general and I still buy PC games occasionally.
The problem is, that the majority of big release has DRM, even if you buy the retail version and this reduces PC gaming for me from my primary system for over 20 years to a system for a handful Indie games and the rare new releases on gog. I still enjoy PC gaming but the situation makes me sad

Then you obviously missed a large part of the pre-Steam era where the PC was at the verge of a dehydrated death. It wasn't all smooth sailing since the golden Duke Nukem, Starcraft, Doom, CS era up until Steam.

That's different from country to country. And yes I did miss how PC gaming was almost dead because in my country PC gaming was still probably the biggest gaming platform.
But unfortunately this was not the case worldwide, so I do understand, if in your country PC gaming was dying the situation got better afterwards.

 

[inm8num2]

Steam has a monopoly on PC gaming DRM. Pretty much the only other DRM out there is publisher-exclusive systems, such as Origin and Battle.net. Steam does not have a monopoly on PC gaming sales, since Valve doesn't take any money on any Steam sales not made in the Steam store.

Yes that's a good point. But I'd say it's not just a monopoly on DRM. It's on distribution (which can have DRM or not have it).

But again I agree with your post. What I meant to convey is essentially that most roads lead back to Steam. There is competition in pricing and sales, but not as much in the distribution. I'm not saying whether this is 'good' or 'bad'. I'm mostly neutral, though I am a proponent of DRM-free gaming and a minor GOG fanboy.

 

[schragnasher]

I wouldn't take this as a sign of anything that's definitely going to happen without an official Valve announcement.

Frankly finding this stuff in the beta update is almost official in valve terms. they know people mine their files like crazy.

 

[Druz]

A PC game i bought 10+ years ago is still usable today. Steam games are often dirt cheap. I think that more than makes up for being able to buy used games.

 

[Htown]

Thing is, its taken the PC years and years to get to this point where people don't care about the Steam DRM. From cardboard discs, the certain lines on certain pages, to CD-Keys and beyond. At launch Steam was an awful pile of crap but they kept on updating it and now its pretty much the savior of PC gaming. Gamers gave them the benefit of the doubt and Valve ran with that.

Why has console gaming not been given ample enough time to prove if the DRM could work in a similar fashion? MS tried to start something and the backlash was massive.

Because they aren't competing with PC gaming as it was, they're competing with PC gaming as it is. It's the same reason people are down on the WiiU's graphics even though it's a generational leap above the Wii.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

I'm about to watch the video but let's not forget that Steam/GoG/etc have *earned* gamers' trust over the course of years. Steam wasn't as universally praised and loved as it seems to be now. I remember people complaining that they had to download (back then) what I think was about 2GB for Half Life 2. The Steam hack debacle, ownership issues, etc. After Steam started dropping prices, being indie-friendly, having massive sales, that's when the love came in.

The fact that they their service is free (i.e. you only pay for the games you want to buy but don't have to pay for the service itself) is likely what encouraged gamers to try and decide for themselves.

*edit* eh, I see it's already been covered. Good chaps.

 

[Grief.exe]

Probably the best Jimquisition video I've ever seen.

He provides solid arguments, counter-arguments, concedes certain points, lists out areas of improvement. Overall, excellent video, deserves to be watched.

 

[Raide]

Because they aren't competing with PC gaming as it was, they're competing with PC gaming as it is. It's the same reason people are down on the WiiU's graphics even though it's a generational leap above the Wii.

So why did MS not get the chance to push their DD option as the future option? Who's to say that they could not have made their own Steam platform and bring those benefits across to console gamers? Cheap games and multiple outlets for content should not be a PC only thing right?

 

[mavs]

I know that not everything has DRM on Steam or PC in general and I still buy PC games occasionally.
The problem is, that the majority of big release has DRM, even if you buy the retail version and this reduces PC gaming for me from my primary system for over 20 years to a system for a handful Indie games and the rare new releases on gog. I still enjoy PC gaming but the situation makes me sad

The majority of big releases had DRM before Steam became relevant. That's the only reason Steam did become relevant, Steam DRM is so much better than the ultra-shitty DRM it supplanted.

Remember rootkits and activation limits?

So why did MS not get the chance to push their DD option as the future option? Who's to say that they could not have made their own Steam platform and bring those benefits across to console gamers? Cheap games and multiple outlets for content should not be a PC only thing right?

The fact that they didn't even try to PR bullshit anyone into thinking they would do that should tell you something.

 

[Definity]

Enjoyed that Jim. Keep em coming!

 

[Visualante2]

A game being on Steam doesn't necessarily mean it has DRM, pubs/devs have the option of not implementing it. You can check this by trying to run the game executable without Steam loaded. There are also places that offer no-DRM game releases like GOG.

I think this is problematic, users demand achievements, and community integration but that is more or less built into the DRM side of things now. Initially Steamworks was meant to be this thing to improve PC gaming, even if you're not releasing on Steam and it has now more or less morphed into part of the platform. I'm not sure you have the option to get at Steamworks anymore unless you're an authorised developer. I'm not very informed about this stuff though so please correct me anyone.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I'm about to watch the video but let's not forget that Steam/GoG/etc have *earned* gamers' trust over the course of years. Steam wasn't as universally praised and loved as it seems to be now. I remember people complaining that they had to download (back then) what I think was about 2GB for Half Life 2. The Steam hack debacle, ownership issues, etc. After Steam started dropping prices, being indie-friendly, having massive sales, that's when the love came in.

Hell, there was still a big anti-Steam sentiment from some circles as recent as a few years ago approaching Civ 5's release. People didn't want to have to load another program in the background using up resources, which in many rigs these days is completely negligible in relation to performance hit.

 

[Atomski]

Thing is, its taken the PC years and years to get to this point where people don't care about the Steam DRM. From cardboard discs, the certain lines on certain pages, to CD-Keys and beyond. At launch Steam was an awful pile of crap but they kept on updating it and now its pretty much the savior of PC gaming. Gamers gave them the benefit of the doubt and Valve ran with that.

Why has console gaming not been given ample enough time to prove if the DRM could work in a similar fashion? MS tried to start something and the backlash was massive.

Because consoles are ran by greedy corporations..?

Plus simply like it was state already the PC is an open market, prices are low cause you dont have to buy games on Steam.. hell you can buy steam activated games on amazon, GMG and so on so deals are always out there just waiting.

On console you have retail and their closed digital store. Retail dosnt want to compete with the digital store so they put pressure on the corps to keep prices the same. Its like the exact opposite on PC..

 

[androvsky]

Thing is, its taken the PC years and years to get to this point where people don't care about the Steam DRM. From cardboard discs, the certain lines on certain pages, to CD-Keys and beyond. At launch Steam was an awful pile of crap but they kept on updating it and now its pretty much the savior of PC gaming. Gamers gave them the benefit of the doubt and Valve ran with that.

Why has console gaming not been given ample enough time to prove if the DRM could work in a similar fashion? MS tried to start something and the backlash was massive.

You've mostly answered the question, the later days of PC DRM were terrible. The fear of piracy got to the point where the few publishers that bothered making PC games refused to do so without vicious DRM, and many users refused to buy games with that DRM mess screwing up their computers. Steam wasn't a necessary evil for consumers, it was an improvement over the status quo. Steam was less restrictive than what consumers were already dealing with, not more. Granted, consoles were even better at that time, and is at least part of the reason why many PC gamers moved to consoles during the 2000's.

Microsoft's DRM was not better than what people were used to on consoles. It was more restrictive for a platform that didn't have the problems with piracy that PCs do. Controlling the used games market isn't something that's preventing users from doing something that's illegal anyway (piracy), it's taking away an actual right they expect to have with physical goods. MS wasn't giving much in the way of benefits to their DRM, only hoops consumers had to jump through to have some semblance of the same freedoms consumers have now.

 

[Rinj von Scoot]

A PC game i bought 10+ years ago is still usable today. Steam games are often dirt cheap. I think that more than makes up for being able to buy used games.

The first one is the best one for me. Digital console games that I bought between 2006-2012 are 100% incompatible with 2013's consoles, whereas my digital PC purchases from the same time period are playable on new PCs. In addition to that, the inherently more open nature of PCs means that even if Steam, et al, shut down one day, it'd be relatively simple (compared to consoles) to crack the DRM and continue playing my purchased games.

Insanely good sales and competition are also very good points, but persistence is extremely important in this particular conversation.

 

[Raide]

They needed to outline that plan. As has been mentioned, Valve themselves were the villains of the gaming world until Steam proved itself. You can't provide less value for the same price without making a case for it. They made the decision to not go through with it. If they wanted to brave the ire for a couple years, they certainly could have ignored us.

Personally I think they still have a shot or making their own Steam. They just need to start the ball rolling without DRM, get people to migrate into that way of thinking and then when next-gen rolls around, it will be normal.

I would love to see more competition and options in the console gaming space.

I don't think the console space just ready for what MS wanted to do but I think they gradually will if they can make the change worth it.

 

[flatearthpandas]

That PS4 commercial is painful every time. Just the dopey look on the guy's face as he likes content or watches a video or performs the most pedestrian maneuvers. Cringeworthy.

 

[NeededSleep]

Great video, and i agree with Jim on many if not all the points. PC still has a way to go, but its still way ahead of consoles getting there.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I'm not sure you have the option to get at Steamworks anymore unless you're an authorised developer. I'm not very informed about this stuff though so please correct me anyone.

Pretty sure indie games like 10,000,000 use Steamworks, and that was released this past year. So it can't be too difficult to get access to it.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

So why did MS not get the chance to push their DD option as the future option? Who's to say that they could not have made their own Steam platform and bring those benefits across to console gamers? Cheap games and multiple outlets for content should not be a PC only thing right?

I'm sorry, but they did get their chance. They backed out on it. Nobody forced them to. Valve/Steam got A LOT of backlash X years ago when they launched the platform, and it was not without its issues so the pressure was there. They decided to go on with their vision and they were right about it. Had Microsoft announced game prices to be in line with what's expected of DD I am 100% sure that the reaction would have been entirely different. I'm not sure that DD prices for console games can match 1:1 prices on PC due to certification process, PSN/XBL being closed systems, etc, but they should have been able to at least try and bring prices down a bit (i.e. 20%-30%).

 

[BigDug13]

The first one is the best one for me. Digital console games that I bought between 2006-2012 are 100% incompatible with 2013's consoles, whereas my digital PC purchases from the same time period are playable on new PCs. In addition to that, the inherently more open nature of PCs means that even if Steam, et al, shut down one day, it'd be relatively simple (compared to consoles) to crack the DRM and continue playing my purchased games.

Insanely good sales and competition are also very good points, but persistence is extremely important in this particular conversation.

They also show improvements with better hardware. For bigger games, someone usually releases texture packs and graphics tweaks that push an older game to look like a current game. Example, what the 2002 game Morrowind can look like now:

That gives bigger value in your game purchase when it continues to look and play better as you upgrade your hardware, which is something consoles have yet to accomplish without selling you a special "HD" release of an old game that you have to buy a second time.

 

[Sajjaja]

Reminds me of a cross between The Penguin and Koopa from the Mario Brothers movie.

Great video though.

"NeoGAF guy says I look like a cross between The Penguin and a Goomba from the live action Mario movie. I should be insulted but I can't be." - Jim Sterling

https://twitter.com/JimSterling/status/349222468726173698

 

[Gannd]

So why did MS not get the chance to push their DD option as the future option? Who's to say that they could not have made their own Steam platform and bring those benefits across to console gamers? Cheap games and multiple outlets for content should not be a PC only thing right?

Jim already did a video answering these questions. Xbox One is still very much tied to physical retail. PC gaming isn't. The Xbox One is a closed platform. PC gaming isn't. Steam competes with many different retailers and the Xbox One digital marketplace wouldn't have. Also, since they still were going to sell Xbox One games primarily through physical retail and then force the consumer to the digital space after purchase, Xbox One would have less room to move without pissing off GameStop, Target, Best Buy, Walmart and other physical retailers.

 

[ZeroCoin]

Normally I can't stand anything from Sterling, but he did a good job of explaining why steam, even with it's own set of issues, can't be compared with the system microsoft was trying to implement.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

Hell, there was still a big anti-Steam sentiment from some circles as recent as a few years ago approaching Civ 5's release. People didn't want to have to load another program in the background using up resources, which in many rigs these days is completely negligible in relation to performance hit.

Yeah, I remember that It's pretty impressive when you think about it. Valve developed and launched Steam back when NOBODY was ready for it (people complaining about background processes, always online requirements, bandwidth, etc). I don't think it's an overstatement to say that they ushered us into the Digital Download era. Anybody out there saying that "Gamers weren't ready for the future" are completely out of contact with reality. DD is not the future, it's the present. Microsoft wasn't 100% behind their own "vision" for their console so how would they expect us to be?

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Jim already did a video answering these questions. Xbox One is still very much tied to physical retail. PC gaming isn't. The Xbox One is a closed platform. PC gaming isn't. Steam competes with many different retailers and the Xbox One digital marketplace wouldn't have. Also, since they still were going to sell Xbox One games primarily through physical retail and then force the consumer to the digital space after purchase, Xbox One would have less room to move without pissing off GameStop, Target, Best Buy, Walmart and other physical retailers.

Exactly. Also let's be honest MS has shown time and time again that they're not exactly the most consumer friendly. So how can you trust a company that hasn't always been consumer friendly to be consumer friendly? You can't.

 

[RionaaM]

So why did MS not get the chance to push their DD option as the future option? Who's to say that they could not have made their own Steam platform and bring those benefits across to console gamers? Cheap games and multiple outlets for content should not be a PC only thing right?

Because the benefits aren't currently there. MS hasn't shown customers how the DRM would be good for them, so there's no reason at all to trust them.

And they can never create an open platform on a closed system, as you're proposing. There's absolutely no way something like that could exist.


EDIT: it was supposed to say closed system, not open. My mistake.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

So how can you trust a company that hasn't always been consumer friendly to be consumer friendly? You can't.

B E L I E V E

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Steam doesn't have a monopoly on PC gaming, but for some people it appears it may as well be one. It troubles me to see all the people that say "No Steam, No Buy!" in game announcement or deal threads. Steam is wonderful now, but nothing lasts forever. I just wonder how many people will be willing to open up to other services if Gabe dies and the wrong people take over. The beauty of PC gaming is that at least they will have a choice when that happens because enough people support GOG, Origin, and others to keep them in business.

 

[tokyostomp]

bravo jimmyboy