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[The Albatross]

A key factor here is that there are myriad digital market places on PC, all of which compete for price and market share.

• Steam
• Origin
• Amazon Digital
• Good Old Games
• Games for Windows Live
• Apple App Store
• Indie bundle websites
• Publisher websites, or other websites that sell/download games
• more...

On consoles there is:

• Console manufacturer store

That keeps digital prices HIGH on consoles, reduces the number of sales, controls the sale of certain games, restricts access, and forces gamers to accept policies and agreements that they might not otherwise want. If Sony or Microsoft institute a bad policy, there is no competitor on their digital storefront to break from that policy.

That all being said...

I've never got the mentality of people who were protesting the XBone DRM rumors (back when it was thought Sony would do the same) and then saying "guess I'll just go PC then."

 

[aquavelva]

Is this really an issue? I have seriously not seen many people bring up PC/Steam during the digital/Xbone debate, and when they do they get shot down instantly.

I know I'm in the minority, but it's one of the reasons I haven't gone PC. The idea of not owning something I purchased doesn't sit well with me.

 

[josecitoxnyo]

I love this guy, awesome video as always.

 

[zkylon]

But Valve has virtually no control on pricing and it doesn't take any cut from a sale unless the game was sold directly from their store, which makes quite easy to understand why other resellers don't mind it too much.

wait you're saying gamersgate sells a steam key and valve doesn't get a cut?

that's pretty weird

 

[Shai-Tan]

Retail doesn't do that on steam either. The big price cuts late in a game's life are steam store only. So you can't argue competition, citing GMG, Amazon etc, then talk about crazy low prices as though they are connected. Both happen, but both are separate and unrelated things.

GMG, Amazon, etc can discount on their own but they have a limited margin. They can also negotiate promotions with the publishers but generally people prefer using Steam because they are far more than a store front. Most people want the Steam version of games because of the Steam specific features and integration so the other 15% of the market is reduced to minor price competition selling Steam keys unless it's a game sold directly from a publisher service that was deliberately withheld from Steam and all other separate digital retailers (EA, Blizzard). What Microsoft was trying to do was make the physical retailers exactly like the digital and physical stores selling Steamworks games which they found unappealing for the exact same reasons that make them marginal on pc (physical can't compete with digital pricing, alternative digital can only compete by reducing margin)

 

[Nikodemos]

Everyone on PC uses some sort of CD key DRM

GOG, DotEMU and Humble Bundle (at least partially, in their case) don't.

 

[Htown]

wait you're saying gamersgate sells a steam key and valve doesn't get a cut?

that's pretty weird

Valve doesn't care if they get money on every sale, because they know they've built up an ecosystem where, if you're on Steam, you're almost certainly going to buy something eventually.

 

[zma1013]

GOG, DotEMU and Humble Bundle (at least partially, in their case) don't.

What are the first 2? I don't know all these fangled dangled acronyms.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Yeah, I remember that It's pretty impressive when you think about it. Valve developed and launched Steam back when NOBODY was ready for it (people complaining about background processes, always online requirements, bandwidth, etc). I don't think it's an overstatement to say that they ushered us into the Digital Download era. Anybody out there saying that "Gamers weren't ready for the future" are completely out of contact with reality. DD is not the future, it's the present. Microsoft wasn't 100% behind their own "vision" for their console so how would they expect us to be?

Steam wasn't universally hated when it was released.
It got A LOT of backlash when HL2 released, because a lot of people were apparently oblivious to it as a requirement, and it had A LOT of teething issues with being unable to cope with the demand of a lot of people signing up for a steam account for the first time ever, but it had a sizeable user base in beta before that.

Why?

Because it was an improvement to Pc gaming.

It's primary purpose was as an Anti-cheat and Patch delivery system.

Maybe some of you don't remember searching for game patches on fucking Fileplanet, and then sitting in a queue because who the fuck pays a subscription to patch games but that's what Pc gaming was like. And no rollup patches either, downloading 4 or 5 seperate patches for the damn game you just bought.

I was also a very early adopter of Steam because I used to play a lot of HL Mods, and was absolutely fucking sick of rebuying HL to get a fresh CD key before it got re-keygenned and I couldn't go online again due to the "Your CD Key is already in use" message or getting VAC banned because every time some fuck was wallhacking in CS and banned, they just rerolled a fresh key with a keygen.

Having my CD key tied to my email address (so I could reclaim it absolutely whenever) and having patches and mods available through one free application was absolutely the future of PC gaming.

 

[Spookie]

I can't believe, with him being English, that before steam buying a PC game consisted of either:

A) Hoping it was a big enough release for GAME/HMV to give a shit to stock it and that's not even beginning to go in to the ludicrous prices they charge.
B) Pre-order online and god forbid if you wanted a game like Legends of Grimrock, or more recently, Gunpoint as no fucking publisher would touch it with a barge pole and there was no easy way to get the game.

I feel the situation the PC is in now is more out of necessity than an evolution. It felt like that came later when Valve got their shit together and other companies followed suit.

 

[Neuromancer]

Wait someone answer me this please. That clip of The Witcher that was shown at the 1:28 mark, is that part 2 or 3 cause I heard the game looks great but gat damn, if that's 2 I'm picking it up TODAY.

It was 3.

 

[Enosh]

this must be a US only thing because on release retail here is always cheaper than steam (steam is usually about 50€ vs 40-45€ retail)

 

[Nikodemos]

What are the first 2? I don't know all these fangled dangled acronyms.

? Wut.

You mean you haven't heard about Good Old Games? The biggest non-DRM digital retailer? That's... peculiar.

DotEMU is relatively similar to GOG (with a smaller selection) though it generally concentrates on classic console (Genesis etc.) ports.

 

[Gattsu25]

Before this whole DRM trend started there was nothing stopping you from selling used games because the CD keys were only checked offline and you could easily sell and buy used games on for example ebay.
And at least in my country you could even rent PC games from stores.

My EB Games did not accept used PC games.

 

[Delusibeta]

I need to want this because I still don't get it.

If one argument is competition, with publishers able to sell steam keys through third parties,men outraging competition o price like with physical goods. OK. The original Xbox plan would have sold physical discs through multiple retail channels, encouraging competition. Those discs would basically act like steam works physical discs that you can buy. I don't understand the specific difference here. Yes XBL would probably be the only place to buy digitally and prices are likely to be expensive. But the retail choice is still there as a proxy for digital download - what you would have ended up with is identical.

You can also buy Steamworks games on discs in boxes.

 

[Haunted]

I don't think he deserves all those accolades for stating the obvious, but well, if it educates some of the (non-paid) "bububu it's like Steam" XB1 defenders, I guess it serves a purpose.

 

[zma1013]

? Wut.

You mean you haven't heard about Good Old Games? The biggest non-DRM digital retailer? That's... peculiar.

DotEMU is relatively similar to GOG (with a smaller selection) though it generally concentrates on classic console (Genesis etc.) ports.

Skimmed the GoG site and it appears their selection of new games is extremely limited and a lot of it is delegated to older titles. Those aren't what I'd call good alternatives to PC gaming if you're actually interested in new games or heck even many games from the past 10 years.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

The fact that the Xbox one was shipping with DRM and an all digital space while NONE of your xbla or DD games would transfer is a huge problem. If you want to implement DRM "like" PC's then you had better make sure I can (mostly) ALWAYS play the games I buy.

The fact that Major Nelson kept saying "Hey its too early man! Live in the now! Stop thinking about the future and the security of your digital games, but please do join us in the all digital future because that's what the Xbox One is" was pretty telling. Microsoft doesn't care about the consumer and their backwards messaging should have let a lot of gamers know how much they didn't care to even get their message correct.

My Man. This guy knows what's up.

Steam wasn't universally hated when it was released.

I... never said that it was.

It got A LOT of backlash when HL2 released, because a lot of people were apparently oblivious to it as a requirement, and it had A LOT of teething issues with being unable to cope with the demand of a lot of people signing up for a steam account for the first time ever, but it had a sizeable user base in beta before that.

The bolded is exactly the same thing that I said. You just added more to it.

Why?

Because it was an improvement to Pc gaming.

Again, same thing that I said. I'm not sure if you're countering or agreeing with me.

It's primary purpose was as an Anti-cheat and Patch delivery system.

Maybe some of you don't remember searching for game patches on fucking Fileplanet, and then sitting in a queue because who the fuck pays a subscription to patch games but that's what Pc gaming was like. And no rollup patches either, downloading 4 or 5 seperate patches for the damn game you just bought.

I remember Fileplanet and not using it. I remember downloading patches from FTP servers or searching for mirrors that did not require me to download apps and/or wait in a queue.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure your post was intended for me.

 

[Green Biker Dude]

if the consoles digital stores had actual sales, maybe people would be more accepting of not having second hand games

the problem is that they want to sell the games digitally and keep the prices high. it doesn't work like that

also, the other reason it worked on pcs was because if developers weren't willing to sell their game cheaper, people would just pirate. with consoles, that isn't an alternative, sometimes. so people might as well as not buy them

 

[Shai-Tan]

I feel the situation the PC is in now is more out of necessity than an evolution. It felt like that came later when Valve got their shit together and other companies followed suit.

It's true to some extent. The Vita has 60% digital already, in part because of how bad it's doing at retail. But part of it is the different path pc took in reaction to high piracy which made it less appealing to use limited shelf space for pc. Codes prevented both rental and resale long before a unified online store like Steam existed.

 

[MEsoJD]

Thank god for him.

 

[kewlmyc]

I like how he mentions that this video should be common sense and he's slightly insulted to even have to make it.

 

[Htown]

Steam wasn't universally hated when it was released.
It got A LOT of backlash when HL2 released, because a lot of people were apparently oblivious to it as a requirement, and it had A LOT of teething issues with being unable to cope with the demand of a lot of people signing up for a steam account for the first time ever, but it had a sizeable user base in beta before that.

Why?

Because it was an improvement to Pc gaming.

It's primary purpose was as an Anti-cheat and Patch delivery system.

Maybe some of you don't remember searching for game patches on fucking Fileplanet, and then sitting in a queue because who the fuck pays a subscription to patch games but that's what Pc gaming was like. And no rollup patches either, downloading 4 or 5 seperate patches for the damn game you just bought.

I was also a very early adopter of Steam because I used to play a lot of HL Mods, and was absolutely fucking sick of rebuying HL to get a fresh CD key before it got re-keygenned and I couldn't go online again due to the "Your CD Key is already in use" message or getting VAC banned because every time some fuck was wallhacking in CS and banned, they just rerolled a fresh key with a keygen.

Having my CD key tied to my email address (so I could reclaim it absolutely whenever) and having patches and mods available through one free application was absolutely the future of PC gaming.

oh god

Fileplanet

that fucking pop-up window you had to leave open forever

 

[Shai-Tan]

if the consoles digital stores had actual sales, maybe people would be more accepting of not having second hand games

the problem is that they want to sell the games digitally and keep the prices high. it doesn't work like that

With the mandated simultaneous release date it will be easier for publishers to lower prices over time. They don't want to lower prices now when there are a bunch of copies rotting at retail that were sent weeks before the game was on the digital store. A lot of the infrastructure doesn't exist on the current stores to do pre order with preload, to quickly change price, a promotional oriented store front etc. When it's easier to make digital projections and a more smooth and reliable path for the customer they will send less copies to the physical retailers and the scarcity will drive some of those people to buy instead on digital.

 

[Jake Tower]

It's true to some extent. The Vita has 60% digital already, in part because of how bad it's doing at retail. But part of it is the different path pc took in reaction to high piracy which made it less appealing to use limited shelf space for pc. Codes prevented both rental and resale long before a unified online store like Steam existed.

US copyright law prohibits rental of PC games

 

[Vaporak]

Ok good points. But IMO for large mainstream games, alternatives simply aren't there. Sure,for indies they can go DRM free, and GOG for older titles. But for the mainstream titles there is pretty much only steam

Well you are factually wrong on that point. The most popular pc games for the most part dont have steam releases at all.

 

[Shai-Tan]

US copyright law prohibits rental of PC games

Well we had rental of pc games here in Canada via Blockbuster at one point. Anyway license change (and legal protection determined by courts or legislation) goes hand in hand with those other limits (serial codes and other drm)

 

[Portugeezer]

Spot on again, what's this now, a 6 week streak of being spot on?

 

[Druz]

My copies of KOTOR and JSRF I bought a decade ago still work on my Xbox 360. My PlayStation games are just fine on my PS3. By the same token, I have some PC games that I bought back then that don't like 64 bit Windows 7. But none of that has anything at all to do with used game sales.

A limited list of backwards compatibility doesn't make a real retort. Your games live and die with your systems and the ability to spend money repurchasing them. Without that system, your games are useless. PC is one singular platform. Any PC I come across is going to be capable of playing my games.

If anything the limited activation on some games on PC will encourage piracy, but publishers are learning.

 

[Shai-Tan]

One of the reasons for GOG is some older games don't work with the new systems and OS. They simply stopped working as time passed and pc changed. So that old boxed game (our even old unsupported Steam version) might not work and if you want to play it you need to find some obscure fix or rebuy the game on GOG.

On console it's not so simple because if the big architecture change but going forward you would think pc would ensure backwards compatibility unless pc architecture is somehow retired.

 

[CTLance]

Oh sorry, I misunderstood your post then. You meant people who defended the Xbone DRM using Steam as an argument, right? Looks like we were actually talking about the same thing. My mistake!

Exactly. It's OK, I worded it badly. I changed the wording a bit so it should be less confusing now.

So, uh... what now. Internet High Five? Awkward hug? Attempted-brofist-handshake-hybrid?

 

[FunkyPajamas]

So, uh... what now. Internet High Five? Awkward hug? Attempted-brofist-handshake-hybrid?

qfs.

 

[nubbe]

It is as if he is reading my mind

Thank god for Jim Sterling

 

[EmiPrime]

Spot on yet again.

 

[TheExodu5]

Maybe some of you don't remember searching for game patches on fucking Fileplanet, and then sitting in a queue because who the fuck pays a subscription to patch games but that's what Pc gaming was like. And no rollup patches either, downloading 4 or 5 seperate patches for the damn game you just bought.

Man, I almost forgot about this. PC gaming was such a pain compared to what it is today.

 

[Odrion]

Jim's absolutely right, it's obvious why there's a difference when the information is presented to you.

 

[Sober]

wait you're saying gamersgate sells a steam key and valve doesn't get a cut?

that's pretty weird

Pretty sure it costs publishers and devs NOTHING to generate CD keys from valve. So I assume resellers ask to buy keys from pubs at a price then they can sell them for however little they want. Steam isn't getting a cut from the sale but you do engage people into their ecosystem. It's mostly the reason why sites that previously had so few Steam key offerings are the ones offering even better deals than Steam has in a few years past. On the Steam store side of things pubs/devs decide at how much they want to discount a game for.

oh god

Fileplanet

that fucking pop-up window you had to leave open forever

I remember waiting the entire goddamn evening in line to download the C&C Renegade Demo. Sorta sad FP no longer is continued but yeah it was a goddamn hassle back in the day.

 

[SneakyStephan]

I don't agree with your conclusion and where you are going with this Jim.

No proper ownership on steam isn't right either, it's a loophole right now against consumer rights that needs patching with new laws.

But you were right pointing out that freely trading and selling games is the single one last advantage in a sea of disadvantages , restrictions and closed platform bullshit that the consoles had left.
So taking that away , well ...

 

[thepotatoman]

Was there ever a used game market for pc games? Was there ever a point when PC games could be gotten from your local rental store? Why do we have to jump through hoops justifying Steam's killing of a market that never existed in the first place?

 

[Sober]

I don't agree with your conclusion and where you are going with this Jim.

No proper ownership on steam isn't right either, it's a loophole right now against consumer rights that needs patching with new laws.

But you were right pointing out that freely trading and selling games is the single one last advantage in a sea of disadvantages , restrictions and closed platform bullshit that the consoles had left.
So taking that away , well ...

I could see maybe 30 minute grace period to return a game. Any longer than that and I dunno.

 

[CambriaRising]

This thread made me remember the past horrors of searching for a patch and waiting days for it to download because I was not a premium member.

Oh my how things have changed.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Was there ever a used game market for pc games? Was there ever a point when PC games could be gotten from your local rental store? Why do we have to jump through hoops justifying Steam's killing of a market that never existed in the first place?

Yes there was...

I could see maybe 30 minute grace period to return a game. Any longer than that and I dunno.

No, not just returns (and definitely not 30 minutes)
Just because you don't get a disc doesn't mean you didn't pay good money for the game just the same, you should be able to trade and sell it just the same as with a disc.

DD isn't special, same rights and laws should apply. Unless they want to classify dd content as a rental, in which case that should be publicly advertised as such and value would be adjusted down accordingly.

 

[TheChocolateWar]

The used PC game market is not dead.....its a bit smaller than the console market but it is still there. You can still call a publisher and have the license reset. There are specialty shops in some states that sell used PC games. Prime example being McKays.

 

[Sober]

No, not just returns (and definitely not 30 minutes)
Just because you don't get a disc doesn't mean you didn't pay good money for the game just the same, you should be able to trade and sell it just the same as with a disc.

Oh I agree. I'm more of a hoarder/collector but what I meant is maybe a grace period for a full refund. After that trade in for credit or being able to trade with friends definitely sounds like a good idea.

Steam definitely knows when you've just plugged in a key versus buying from them but either way it seems confusing if they do or don't allow their store purchases only to be affected or whether to just let everything in the ecosystem go freely as long as it stays there.

 

[d31m0s]

Source (The Escapist)

Even before looking at the link offhand almost every PC needs internet to be taken advantage of and the higher entry cost makes no sense if you dont have internet

 

[Sentenza]

wait you're saying gamersgate sells a steam key and valve doesn't get a cut?

that's pretty weird

That's exactly how it works. And not just for Gamersgate or other stores, it works that way even for developers.
If you buy -say- Legend of Grimrock directly from the developer's website, they give you both a DRM-free download and a Steam key, and Valve doesn't charge a single cent for the latter.

Of course, as Htown pointed, that's not just out of genuine and disinterested generosity. They simply realized that even without monetizing on the short term, more users on their services are going to turn in long term profits.

 

[Rickenslacker]

Good video, it's a great reference link instead of having to actually write something out on the obvious reasons why Steam isn't equatable to the Xbone DRM situation.

With DD in general, it's expected that you wouldn't lend your games or trade them in -- they're digital. People didn't have a stink about it with XBLA or Games on Demand either for that reason. When you expect all physical media to abide by that is where it gets scummy, and on the PC front we've had patches and CD keys for ages before DD; it sucked. You had to go to Fileplanet or something and maybe stumble upon the latest update then queue up a download for it. With Steam, everything becomes centralized and automatic; you gain as much as you take away, but with PC you're not even taking away much because the physical packaging was often a burden. Installations were a necessity and even swapping discs for the authenticity check felt pointless. Not to mention if I never put my PC online ever again, all the stuff I have already installed on my machine through Steam is mine for all eternity forever with no strings attached.

Even things like storage upgrade is more difficult to justify on consoles for me. I never upgraded my PS3 hard drive because it was solely dedicated to my PS3 and solely for PS3 game installations. On the other hand it's easier to upgrade my PC's hard drive because, well, it's on my PC and I could do so much more with it than install games on it.

All this and more just makes sense on the PC front where on consoles it takes away more than it gives. If you want a strong DD storefront on consoles, then do actual DD and not an offensive half-step where I'm shackled online with an otherwise regular console experience.

 

[ekim]

I still don't get the point of some people.
Most of the arguments against Xbones DRM were based exclusively on the ideal/value of owning games. You don't have that on the PC (even for disc based steamworks games) and then the same people implied that they happily sold their ideals because games are so cheap on Steam and argued that Xbone won't have that kind of sales (which they actually had on the 360 multiple times now for many digital games).

So you either base that discussion on gospels or on money but you can't negate the former with the latter in a discussion.

 

[sflufan]

wait you're saying gamersgate sells a steam key and valve doesn't get a cut?

that's pretty weird

Let's take things even further in monetary terms.

If I buy a Steamworks-enabled game from Amazon/GMG/GG and download it from Steam, then:

- Amazon/GMG/GG gets 100% of the revenue and 0% of the bandwidth costs for downloading the game.
- Valve gets 0% of the revenue and 100% of the bandwidth costs for downloading the game.

 

[tehrik-e-insaaf]

some good points in this video, however one point that might be worth considering: many PC versions of multi-plat games are gravy for the publishers who make the bulk of their revenue and profits on consoles

if console revenue ever dried up, PC game prices would sky rocket (or many would probably never be made because budgets would have to be adjusted substantially without the added benefit of console sales) - so the perceived "value" of PC gaming would change substantially

most PC-only games are heavy on DRM or are subscription or are F2P/micro gouged

ironic that consoles, which used to be devices for the average person to play games, are now essentially luxury products