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[hinch7]

Games are so much more expensive to produce these days, particularly ones making AAA games. And building one for one platform isn't viable anymore. Unless you're Nintendo of course, in which case you can do whatever the fuck you want. Which is why console exclusives make their way onto other platforms. Publishers like Sony kind of have offer some incentives to buy their hardware otherwise they'd lose a large chunk of their audience and user base.

PC gaming no longer driving those advancements as it once did is part of the reason they are slower.

Hardware power is probably not the most important restriction imposed on development by prioritising console though; having to design around a controller is.

Previously there was also an industry consensus that designing for console / console gamers first and foremost also meant the game had to be easy and 'streamlined' (dumbed down / idiot-proof / button awesome) so -other than perhaps in production value- PC gamers were just getting worse games than they were getting before. I think it's still somewhat true that the industry views console gamers as dim-witted and designs accordingly, but it's not as bad as it used to be.

Nah Nvidia still pushing the boundaries nearly every generation of GPU's (every 2 or so years) and with AMD and consoles well behind. And CPU tech moving at breakneck speeds.

Just look at what is achievable with years old architecture + node in the Tegra chipset on the Switch 2 and in that form-factor.

 

[Zathalus]

It's normal for a dying out platform.

I thought this thread was about PC and not Xbox?

 

[zeroluck]

Hmm, Half Life Alyx use to sell Steam VR, Nvidia's exclusive high end features use to sell 5090s. We know Valve is making HL3. Nvidia now being a $4 trillions company I hope they acquire some studios to make games exclusive to their upcoming GPUs.

 

[wafflecioccy]

Hmm, Half Life Alyx use to sell Steam VR, Nvidia's exclusive high end features use to sell 5090s. We know Valve is making HL3. Nvidia now being a $4 trillions company I hope they acquire some studios to make games exclusive to their upcoming GPUs.

Nvda isn't $4t yet.

 

[clarky]

Hmm, Half Life Alyx use to sell Steam VR, Nvidia's exclusive high end features use to sell 5090s. We know Valve is making HL3. Nvidia now being a $4 trillions company I hope they acquire some studios to make games exclusive to their upcoming GPUs.

Well you got a laugh out of me if nothing else.

 

[MrJangles]

Anything that plays correctly only on keyboard + mouse is automatically pc exclusive.

Exactly. I couldn't care less what anyone says, first person shooters on consoles are utter fucking abominations when it comes to playing them with controllers.

 

[Gaiff]

PC gaming no longer driving those advancements as it once did is part of the reason they are slower.

How can you even say that when NVIDIA spearheaded RT and AI upscaling, the two biggest technological changes in the past 10 years? Sony and AMD are all in now when they had half-assed it at first. They're all following NVIDIA.

 

[clarky]

Exactly. I couldn't care less what anyone says, first person shooters on consoles are utter fucking abominations when it comes to playing them with controllers.

Then you have me who plays PC FPS but with a controller.

 

[zeroluck]

Exactly. I couldn't care less what anyone says, first person shooters on consoles are utter fucking abominations when it comes to playing them with controllers.

For me everything is an abomination when played with a controller, literally every Sony first party games played way better with M/K.

 

[Crayon]

Tbf lots of lower budget and indies and most pc first releases, don't run very well on consoles, it just goes relatively unnoticed if its not very high profile, and excused as 'but PC requirements" when ppl do notice it(eg wukong).

But outright excluding consoles cuts out 90% of pc market as well, so you'd need a pretty special business model to make it work.

There's a picture in my head of being able to sell something in the traditional business model. A game that's planned to have a long tale, and getting free marketing from the drama about system requirements. Kotaku would write articles about how its problematic. Perhaps even racist.

 

[Topher]

For me everything is an abominations when played with a controller, literally every Sony first party games played way better with M/K.

Not for me. I play third person games with controller and first person with keyboard. I can play third person with keyboard and mouse, but just don't enjoy it very much.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Not for me. I play third person games with controller and first person with keyboard. I can play third person with keyboard and mouse, but just don't enjoy it very much.

Then there's me who play sim driving games with a mouse

 

[SScorpio]

Nah Nvidia still pushing the boundaries nearly every generation of GPU's (every 2 or so years) and with AMD and consoles well behind. And CPU tech moving at breakneck speeds.

Just look at what is achievable with years old architecture + node in the Tegra chipset on the Switch 2 and in that form-factor.

People just listen to the talking head YouTube "experts". It's unknown what direction things will take. But I feel that RTX 5000 series will be like the 2000 series which rolled out raytracing. The 2000 series cards didn't have much of a performance benefit over the GTX 1000 series cards. And the games that benefited from raytracing didn't start coming out in mass until after the 3000 series cards were out. But the new tech introduced in the 5000 series will completely flip how things are rendered on its head. We've been brute forcing rasterization which can only go on for so long.

The biggest issue is if this does take off. It took AMD three GPU generations to be able to match the raytracing performance of Nvidia's previous gen cards along with mostly closing the DLSS gap. Hopefully they can start rolling out comparable features to the 5000 series cards in RDNA5/UDNA as that's what the console generation will likely have. Otherwise we'll be stuck with old brute forcing on consoles while PCs have completely different pipelines.

 

[squidilix]

always be since Crysis

"PC Gamer" now are all cuck ex-console player.

 

[zeroluck]

Not for me. I play third person games with controller and first person with keyboard. I can play third person with keyboard and mouse, but just don't enjoy it very much.

The quality of mouse and keyboard vary greatly, where controllers everyone get the same experience, an expensive mouse makes a world of difference to me, with customized configs(mouse acceleration and etc) that adjusted to my liking.

 

[hououinkyouma00]

How can you even say that when NVIDIA spearheaded RT and AI upscaling, the two biggest technological changes in the past 10 years? Sony and AMD are all in now when they had half-assed it at first. They're all following NVIDIA.

They have also been a big component in the whole PC gaming is stupid expensive and companies wring you dry with their overpriced components that barely have gains over the previous generation. Fuck Nvidia.

 

[Topher]

The quality of mouse and keyboard vary greatly, where controllers everyone get the same experience, a expensive mouse makes a world of difference to me, with customized configs(mouse acceleration and etc) that adjusted to my liking.

Not necessarily true about controllers. They vary as well and many are also customizable. My Wolverine V3 Pro has a lot more to offer than the typical Xbox controller variant.

Of course, if you are looking for high precision, mouse and keyboard are the way to go and they have a lot of options for enhancment there.

It should be pointed out, however, that the option for either as well as whatever brand and model of device we want to choose.....all that is "exclusive" to PC.

 

[Gaiff]

They have also been a big component in the whole PC gaming is stupid expensive and companies wring you dry with their overpriced components that barely have gains over the previous generation. Fuck Nvidia.

That's true, but when you're the market leader to the point of being effectively a monopoly, this is what happens.

 

[Topher]

"PC Gamer" now are all cuck ex-console player.

eh.....plenty of folks were gaming on PC before they ever owned a console my man. Might want to apply the breaks to these broad generalizations.

 

[hinch7]

People just listen to the talking head YouTube "experts". It's unknown what direction things will take. But I feel that RTX 5000 series will be like the 2000 series which rolled out raytracing. The 2000 series cards didn't have much of a performance benefit over the GTX 1000 series cards. And the games that benefited from raytracing didn't start coming out in mass until after the 3000 series cards were out. But the new tech introduced in the 5000 series will completely flip how things are rendered on its head. We've been brute forcing rasterization which can only go on for so long.

The biggest issue is if this does take off. It took AMD three GPU generations to be able to match the raytracing performance of Nvidia's previous gen cards along with mostly closing the DLSS gap. Hopefully they can start rolling out comparable features to the 5000 series cards in RDNA5/UDNA as that's what the console generation will likely have. Otherwise we'll be stuck with old brute forcing on consoles while PCs have completely different pipelines.

That's the thing. Without Nvidia's input from years ago, AMD wouldn't have tried and RT in current gen consoles just wouldn't exist. And chances are we'd still have some sort of sub-par AA solutions as well. And yeah AMD is still playing catch up, which is why their cards are just kinda bleh and in terms of forward compatibility. Looking forward to UDNA though since Kepler did throw in his take and estimations on what to expect there.

The reason why Nvidia didn't try this generation is because they don't want to sell GPU's to consumers. The Ai and enterprise market for them is booming and they make insane profits there. The next generations I can see them progressing more towards inference rendering with Ai.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

PC gets exclusive indies and AA games, which are usually better than the "big" AAA slop games. MS, Sony, and Nintendo also make you pay to play those multi platform titles online.

PC is doing just fine.

 

[zeroluck]

Not necessarily true about controllers. They vary as well and many are also customizable. My Wolverine V3 Pro has a lot more to offer than the typical Xbox controller variant.

Of course, if you are looking for high precision, mouse and keyboard are the way to go and they have a lot of options for enhancment there.

DualSense still feels the best to me after trying many different controllers, I think Sony knows what they are doing so I am very skeptical toward new controller.

 

[bender]

Then there's me who play sim driving games with a mouse

 

[SupaComputa]

Game boxes used to be so cool, even the cover art is boring now.

 

[Thebonehead]

Then you have me who plays PC FPS but with a controller.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Then you have me who plays PC FPS but with a controller.

tbf, the biggest issue with console FPS's is less the controller and more low fov and frame rate.

 

[Crayon]

Only console players have meltdowns about exclusives. I have never seen one person whine about BG3 getting a console release, and have seen dozens of 10,000 word essays about Sony PC ports.

Yeah but I've never heard console players gloating over getting the game ported and using it as reasoning to not get a pc. Let alone droning on about it. That's the point of the op. The other side of the coin is so obvious.

 

[hououinkyouma00]

The quality of mouse and keyboard vary greatly, where controllers everyone get the same experience, an expensive mouse makes a world of difference to me, with customized configs(mouse acceleration and etc) that adjusted to my liking.

While there is definitely some "you get what you pay for" I disagree.

The big PC peripheral companies. It's also made worse by the fact that all these streamer retards are out here pushing their discount codes and shilling for these companies. PC Gaming peripherals are just a rip off in general. There are a ton of cheap Chinese mice out there that perform the same as shit like the G pro Superlight which is 4-8x as expensive. I got my current mouse on a deep discount (Pulsar X2A Size 2 Medium @$45) but it feels much better then the aforementioned Superlight which I bought and returned because it was in no way worth the entry price.

People are just conditioned to think that expensive is always better, and that expensive peripherals will make them better but 99.99% of people aren't good enough at games to bother whether it's mice, keyboards, controllers, or headsets (I will include regular headphones in here as well because most people won't even notice the difference between studio headphones).

Not necessarily true about controllers. They vary as well and many are also customizable. My Wolverine V3 Pro has a lot more to offer than the typical Xbox controller variant.

Of course, if you are looking for high precision, mouse and keyboard are the way to go and they have a lot of options for enhancment there.

Yeah, I agree. Controllers have a huge amount of difference just like other peripherals. There are some dogshit cheap controllers out there, some dogshit expensive controllers out there, some amazing cheap controllers (8bitdo Ultimate 2C for example punches way above it's weight), and some amazing expensive controllers.

That's true, but when you're the market leader to the point of being effectively a monopoly, this is what happens.

Unfortunately, I don't blame anybody for falling out of PC or not getting into PC when you see this shit.

Yeah but I've never heard console players gloating over getting the game ported and using it as reasoning to not get a pc. Let alone drinking on about it. That's the point of the op. The other side of the coin is so obvious.

Exactly. I've been gaming on pc since I was a little kid in the late 90s but it always makes me laugh when somebody is like BUT YEAH WE HAVE "___" or go on about how they emulate console titles while shitting on consoles (I'm not talking about shitting on console performance but consoles in general).

 

[BennyBlanco]

Yeah but I've never heard console players gloating over getting the game ported and using it as reasoning to not get a pc. Let alone droning on about it. That's the point of the op. The other side of the coin is so obvious.

The OP as interpret it is saying exactly that. Why would I buy a PC when it has no exclusives (which is clearly not true). I think the death of exclusives is a good thing and couldn't give less of a shit if something is multiplat or not. Why would I want a bunch of redundant hardware cluttering up my house? Consoles and PCs both have inherent advantages and disadvantages and are so structurally similar now that it makes sense to put your game everywhere it will run.

 

[clarky]

Over 50 and my wrist are shot. Plus I'm not sitting at a desk all night playing games these days.

You'll understand one day.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Yeah but I've never heard console players gloating over getting the game ported and using it as reasoning to not get a pc. Let alone droning on about it. That's the point of the op. The other side of the coin is so obvious.

The gloat exists because of the meltdowns. How can people not find hilarious and poke fun at seeing someone breaking down because some game will now be accessible to more people.

"b-but the brand! The pirates! How dare those damn PC gamers not buy 10 million copies of ratchet and clank! They don't appreciate mama Sony like we do! They don't deserve our games!!!"

 

[zeroluck]

While there is definitely some "you get what you pay for" I disagree.

The big PC peripheral companies. It's also made worse by the fact that all these streamer retards are out here pushing their discount codes and shilling for these companies. PC Gaming peripherals are just a rip off in general. There are a ton of cheap Chinese mice out there that perform the same as shit like the G pro Superlight which is 4-8x as expensive. I got my current mouse on a deep discount (Pulsar X2A Size 2 Medium @$45) but it feels much better then the aforementioned Superlight which I bought and returned because it was in no way worth the entry price.

People are just conditioned to think that expensive is always better, and that expensive peripherals will make them better but 99.99% of people aren't good enough at games to bother whether it's mice, keyboards, controllers, or headsets (I will include regular headphones in here as well because most people won't even notice the difference between studio headphones).

Maybe cheaper mouses can be good, I am currently on Razor Viper V3 Pro, smoothest mouse I have used and little on the expensive side, I recommend everyone on PC to buy dozen mouses and return the ones they don't like.

 

[Topher]

Yeah but I've never heard console players gloating over getting the game ported and using it as reasoning to not get a pc. Let alone droning on about it. That's the point of the op. The other side of the coin is so obvious.

That gloating is in reponse to gloating over the game previously being exclusive though, isn't it? Both sides of that coin is obvious.

 

[Thebonehead]

Over 50 and my wrist are shot. Plus I'm not sitting at a desk all night playing games these days.

You'll understand one day.

Mid 50's here. Mouse pad with gel wrist support to the rescue for me.

mind you depends how shit they are I guess. Mate if mine used to be a lumberjack in the UK and ended up with rsi and white thumb.

He then became a tattoo artist and he'll have to give that up soon as his wrists are shot.

 

[hououinkyouma00]

Maybe cheaper mouses can be good, I am currently on Razor Viper V3 Pro, smoothest mouse I have used and little on the expensive side, I recommend everyone on PC to buy dozen mouses and return the ones they don't like.

I hate to use Linus as an example but it's a video I remember seeing where he compares them. A lot of these cheap Chinese mic use the same exact internals and the same exact exterior molds as expensive counterparts.

 

[MarV0]

Over 50 and my wrist are shot. Plus I'm not sitting at a desk all night playing games these days.

You'll understand one day.

Controller is way worse for arthritis.

 

[Unknown?]

Why would anyone here care about convincing the average person? I can see differences in many games on PC and console without any zoom. Not all games, but in plenty. Certainly in RT heavy games. But even if frame rate was the only difference then that is probably going to mean 30fps mode and that alone is enough to favor PC for me.



Absolutely. That's the beauty of open platforms. I think about games like Balatro and Stardew Valley and the roadblocks they would have to deal with consoles. PC makes a lot of games possible that wouldn't be otherwise. And I think the chart I posted reflects that and has allowed "indies" to become a much bigger part of gaming to the point that some can stand toe to toe with the big publishers.

So can I, the point is it's not a big difference with very few exceptions like full path tracing.

 

[calico]

They have also been a big component in the whole PC gaming is stupid expensive and companies wring you dry with their overpriced components that barely have gains over the previous generation. Fuck Nvidia.

True. If we hadn't lost most of the incentive and impetus created by increasingly demanding PC games perpetually driving the industry forward, this space may have been more meaningfully competitive.

 

[clarky]

Controller is way worse for arthritis.

Luckly I do not have that (yet).

 

[Crayon]

The OP as interpret it is saying exactly that. Why would I buy a PC when it has no exclusives (which is clearly not true). I think the death of exclusives is a good thing and couldn't give less of a shit if something is multiplat or not. Why would I want a bunch of redundant hardware cluttering up my house? Consoles and PCs both have inherent advantages and disadvantages and are so structurally similar now that it makes sense to put your game everywhere it will run.

Ok is doing exactly that and look at the response to his heresy.

That gloating is in reponse to gloating over the game previously being exclusive though, isn't it? Both sides of that coin is obvious.

One side of a coin is not a response to the other side, though. Op is actually just following logic but it's running up against a fanboy narrative. We know that dynamic happens, even if you don't think this particular argument is a good example of it. I happen to think it is.

 

[Topher]

So can I, the point is it's not a big difference with very few exceptions like full path tracing.

What PC are you using as your basis here?

 

[Topher]

One side of a coin is not a response to the other side, though. Op is actually just following logic but it's running up against a fanboy narrative. We know that dynamic happens, even if you don't think this particular argument is a good example of it. I happen to think it is.

What "fanboy narrative" are you referring to?

 

[SoloCamo]

Well the only real advantage hardware wise a PC has is higher framerates, bit higher resolution, and more complex ray tracing.

I mean you left out the fact that consoles usually end up using medium settings, textures often being one of them and it makes a huge fidelity difference

 

[Crayon]

Controller is way worse for arthritis.

All that stuff depends a lot, and there's other problems than arthry. Playing with a mouse blows up my rsi. Just working with one does...

Action games with lots of button bashing on a controller are not good for me so I have to be careful when playing them. If thet have a heavily used button on either of the right shoulders,. I have to remap it. On a fight stick though, I'm fine. Just found an action game I really like and luckily it doesn't need analog so I can use my stick because it's got tons of outright mashing.

 

[Crayon]

What "fanboy narrative" are you referring to?

What the op is (politely) pointing out. That there's no reason to buy a console because all the games they want are on PC. Console fan ous could have picked up almost the same line and ran with it and it would be very similar, but it didn't shake out that way. Having almost all notable releases on both is clearly a two way street.

If you don't think it's more prevalently stated in one way than the other, idk what to tell you.

 

[Three]

Rockstar puts a lot of effort into the PC version though; it always ends up as the definitive version of the game.

You don't remember GTA4 very well. Definitive version maybe but a lot of effort? no. It required beefy PCs to run similar to console at the time and it was unstable.

 

[Zathalus]

Over 50 and my wrist are shot. Plus I'm not sitting at a desk all night playing games these days.

You'll understand one day.

Hence why I swapped over to a vertical mouse. No pressure on the carpal tunnel.

 

[Gaiff]

You don't remember GTA4 very well. Definitive version maybe but a lot of effort? no. It required beefy PCs to run similar to console at the time and it was unstable.

No, it didn't require a beefy PC to run similar to consoles. The game was 720p30 on consoles with massive dips and worse graphics. It required a beefy PC to run at 60fps because the piece of shit game is heavily single-threaded, so your best bet was to OC the hell out of your CPU.

 

[SScorpio]

That's the thing. Without Nvidia's input from years ago, AMD wouldn't have tried and RT in current gen consoles just wouldn't exist. And chances are we'd still have some sort of sub-par AA solutions as well. And yeah AMD is still playing catch up, which is why their cards are just kinda bleh and in terms of forward compatibility. Looking forward to UDNA though since Kepler did throw in his take and estimations on what to expect there.

The reason why Nvidia didn't try this generation is because they don't want to sell GPU's to consumers. The Ai and enterprise market for them is booming and they make insane profits there. The next generations I can see them progressing more towards inference rendering with Ai.

Nvidia screwed themselves a little with the 4000 series by dropping the Super cards. Those were a decent bump from the stock cards, while the 5000 cards are only a small increase from the 4000 Supers. If it was stock 4000 versus 5000 people won't be complaining as much.

Nvidia has been trying to change things while AMD hasn't for quite a while. Their Gameworks libraries that allowed more complex features only on Nvidia cards were never matched by AMD. And AMD has had terrible pricing where in raster they match Nvidia but are missing the feature, so they price the cards ~5% below the Nvidia card. So why would you buy the AMD card without those features? There's a reason Nvidia was almost 90% of the gaming GPU market, AMD for all the YouTubers praise just didn't make sense.

I have no confidence AMD will compete with what the RTX 5000 is hoping to bring to the table. But I'm hopeful that Intel is hungry enough to fight. The first Arc card while not as good at raytracing as Nvidia cards, did smoke AMD's offerings. It will be fun if the non-Nvidia premium PC builds get flipped to an AMD CPU with Intel GPU.

 

[Guilty_AI]

You don't remember GTA4 very well. Definitive version maybe but a lot of effort? no. It required beefy PCs to run similar to console at the time and it was unstable.

and this is how it ran on consoles