Jimquisition: Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It

patapuf

Member
Well you are factually wrong on that point. The most popular pc games for the most part dont have steam releases at all.

People tend to forget that the biggest PC games are not the same games as the biggest console games. COD for example is average sales wise.

some good points in this video, however one point that might be worth considering: many PC versions of multi-plat games are gravy for the publishers who make the bulk of their revenue and profits on consoles

if console revenue ever dried up, PC game prices would sky rocket (or many would probably never be made because budgets would have to be adjusted substantially without the added benefit of console sales) - so the perceived "value" of PC gaming would change substantially

most PC-only games are heavy on DRM or are subscription or are F2P/micro gouged


ironic that consoles, which used to be devices for the average person to play games, are now essentially luxury products

The vast majority of PC games are pretty light on DRM nowadays, an online activation is enough. Blizzard and the odd experiment with always online are the exeption. Also, very few of the really big f2p games are pay2win, you get the same or even more value than out of a regular game if you have your spending under control.

It's not like the PC lacks investment either, EA's biggest game budget wise was a PC exclusive even if that didn't pan out. The same is true for Activision though it did pay off there.
 
I still don't get the point of some people.
Most of the arguments against Xbones DRM were based exclusively on the ideal/value of owning games. You don't have that on the PC (even for disc based steamworks games) and then the same people implied that they happily sold their ideals because games are so cheap on Steam and argued that Xbone won't have that kind of sales (which they actually had on the 360 multiple times now for many digital games).

So you either base that discussion on gospels or on money but you can't negate the former with the latter in a discussion.

hahahahahaha

really
 

jono51

Banned
Maybe some of you don't remember searching for game patches on fucking Fileplanet, and then sitting in a queue because who the fuck pays a subscription to patch games but that's what Pc gaming was like. And no rollup patches either, downloading 4 or 5 seperate patches for the damn game you just bought.

Fuck fileplanet, GamersHell and FileFront 4lyfe.

Was there ever a used game market for pc games? Was there ever a point when PC games could be gotten from your local rental store? Why do we have to jump through hoops justifying Steam's killing of a market that never existed in the first place?

I've bought several used PC games over the years. You can still find plenty from pre 2005-ish on ebay in my experience.
 
Let's take things even further in monetary terms.

If I buy a Steamworks-enabled game from Amazon/GMG/GG and download it from Steam, then:

- Amazon/GMG/GG gets 100% of the revenue and 0% of the bandwidth costs for downloading the game.
- Valve gets 0% of the revenue and 100% of the bandwidth costs for downloading the game.

Getting your eyes on Steam is itself valuable for Valve.
 
I still don't get the point of some people.
Most of the arguments against Xbones DRM were based exclusively on the ideal/value of owning games. You don't have that on the PC (even for disc based steamworks games) and then the same people implied that they happily sold their ideals because games are so cheap on Steam and argued that Xbone won't have that kind of sales (which they actually had on the 360 multiple times now for many digital games).

So you either base that discussion on gospels or on money but you can't negate the former with the latter in a discussion.

Xbox is a closed system while PC is an open one, that's sort of the baseline for the discussion. Used games were one of the only things that kept console game prices competitive or allowed any sort of fluidity in that market, and console games still don't degrade their prices over time as well as Steam does.

People choose to use Steam and can choose not to use it for everything except Valve-published games, and you don't get that choice on Xbox. Saying that MS will offer discounts more frequently after they've removed any opportunity to circumvent their retail price is naive, and makes about as much sense as "MS wanted to eliminate used games so users can share games with 10 people!".
 
People tend to forget that the biggest PC games are not the same games as the biggest console games. COD for example is average sales wise.



The vast majority of PC games are pretty light on DRM nowadays, an online activation is enough. Blizzard and the odd experiment with always online are the exeption. Also, very few of the really big f2p games are pay2win, you get the same or even more value than out of a regular game if you have your spending under control.

It's not like the PC lacks investment either, EA's biggest game budget wise was a PC exclusive even if that didn't pan out. The same is true for Activision though it did pay off there.


I don't want to get into a list war but I'd love to see the big PC-only games that are offline, light DRM games with only simple activation requirements? Every big game I can think of that was PC-only fell into one of the three categories I described.

Also, I didn't mean to say F2P was bad - my point was that the traditional final product thing isn't a super viable model for PC-only products - consoles are the only predictable source of revenue for those types of products because piracy on the PC is such a huge problem
 

Slair

Member
I don't want to get into a list war but I'd love to see the big PC-only games that are offline, light DRM games with only simple activation requirements? Every big game I can think of that was PC-only fell into one of the three categories I described.

I'll get the list started: The Witcher 2
 
Xbox is a closed system while PC is an open one, that's sort of the baseline for the discussion. Used games were one of the only things that kept console game prices competitive or allowed any sort of fluidity in that market, and console games still don't degrade their prices over time as well as Steam does.

People choose to use Steam and can choose not to use it for everything except Valve-published games, and you don't get that choice on Xbox. Saying that MS will offer discounts more frequently after they've removed any opportunity to circumvent their retail price is naive, and makes about as much sense as "MS wanted to eliminate used games so users can share games with 10 people!".

People keep saying this, but it's not true. How do I play Dishonored on a PC?
 

patapuf

Member
I don't want to get into a list war but I'd love to see the big PC-only games that are offline, light DRM games with only simple activation requirements? Every big game I can think of that was PC-only fell into one of the three categories I described.

Also, I didn't mean to say F2P was bad - my point was that the traditional final product thing isn't a super viable model for PC-only products - consoles are the only predictable source of revenue for those types of products because piracy on the PC is such a huge problem

Pretty much all strategy games exept Starcraft for example, Total war, Civ, COH 2 ect are all perfectly playable offline. Of course a lot of big budget PC exclusives are multiplayer oriented but going by publisher very few have bad DRM schemes anymore. I mean there's blizzard and sim city? Ubisoft dropped always online, EA gave up on complicated DRM until sim city, Bethestha never tried, the smaller european publishers gave up on the starforce crap years ago and indies often have no DRM at all. And finally The asian publishers mostly make MMO's

Also, nobody is going to dispute that consoles are the main revenue stream for console type blockbuster games. I don't think thtat's linked to piracy but the taste of the main audience on the platforms.
 

ekim

Member
Xbox is a closed system while PC is an open one, that's sort of the baseline for the discussion. Used games were one of the only things that kept console game prices competitive or allowed any sort of fluidity in that market, and console games still don't degrade their prices over time as well as Steam does.

People choose to use Steam and can choose not to use it for everything except Valve-published games, and you don't get that choice on Xbox. Saying that MS will offer discounts more frequently after they've removed any opportunity to circumvent their retail price is naive, and makes about as much sense as "MS wanted to eliminate used games so users can share games with 10 people!".

Yeah - People can choose to use either Steam, Origin or some other activation/DRM tool for most AAA games. (E.g. Skyrim, all major EA games, UbiSoft... Notable exception is The Witcher 2)
So it's not only about Xbone vs. Steam.

I also didn't suggest that we would have seen more deals or lower prices. I just wanted to put some light on the double-standards that appeared from some posters here.
 

ekim

Member
Yeah, awesome! Vanilla versions of years old games for the same price you'll get the GOTY version at retail. For one day only.

Microsoft just rain those savings down on us.

Sure you checked the discounted and not the original prices?
 

teepo

Member
Was there ever a used game market for pc games? Was there ever a point when PC games could be gotten from your local rental store? Why do we have to jump through hoops justifying Steam's killing of a market that never existed in the first place?

as a child, the used game section at the local microcenter was easily my favorite place in the entire world.
 
People keep saying this, but it's not true. How do I play Dishonored on a PC?
It uses Steamworks DRM so I suppose not, and that should've been included in my post, but you can buy it from places other than Steam (though it's probably cheaper there).
Yeah - People can choose to use either Steam, Origin or some other activations tool for most AAA games. (E.g. Skyrim, all major EA games, UbiSoft... Notable exception is The Witcher 2)
So it's not only about Xbone vs. Steam.

I also didn't suggest that we would have seen more deals or lower prices. I just wanted to put some light on the double-standards that appeared from some posters here.

It's not a double standard. Xbox DRM is a method of price control meant to eliminate price competition for MS and their retail partners, and they could've easily transitioned to DD by simply making the online store offers more appealing instead of enforcing account licenses on disc games. People buy games on Steam because it's often the cheapest and most convenient place to get them, which is semi-manipulative since it's meant to build people's investment in Valve's platform. Xbox offers the stick but not the carrot (or atleast nothing concrete other than people's optimistic conjectures), and has no excuses for launching a shitty platform in 2013 just because Steam was shitty when it started 9 years ago, because that was 9 years ago. There's no reason to take 5 years to figure out how to run a good online store because Valve already showed everyone how to do it, and companies like EA and Microsoft are just too obsessed with the fascist aspects of digital media to implement it properly.
 
It uses Steamworks DRM so I suppose not, and that should've been included in my post, but you can buy it from places other than Steam (though it's probably cheaper there).

Now we're going on a different tangent. Is it not having to use Steam, which isn't true, or about cheaper prices? If it's about cheaper prices, I already get that in retail stores all the time. So that argument doesn't hold water either. Steam is a closed platform on an open OS. The simple fact is, in a lot of cases you're stuck with a closed platform on the PC. We need to get away from the illusion that there are always choices on the PC when in many cases there are not.
 
No, and that's a fairly major omission. Used games was dead on PC well before Steam got into gear.

PC's have historically (before Steam) traded the used game thing for long tail support. Developers used to support their games for years with expansion packs and sometimes free updates. It used to be a bullet point on a box for a game to have a free SDK for modders.

Say you bought the original Half Life in 1998 for $50. A year later, you got Opposing Forces for $30 and it was about 3/4ths the size of the original. In between, Valve released an SDK that spawned:

Counter-Strike
Sven Co-op
They Hunger <--Widely considered to be the best singleplayer Half Life mod.
Day of Defeat
Firearms
Action HL
Team Fortress Classic
Science and Industry
The Specialists
Natural Selection

You could have bought Half Life in 1998 and theoretically have enough content to tide you over for the next four five years. Console games have never had anything resembling that type of support - not even close. On the console side, Activision releases 3 map packs for the latest COD game - each for $15 and then preps for the sequel.
 
"Consoles don't have all that...that's what made consoles such a valid buying option once: the plug and play, the not having to fuck around with any DRM, with connections, and not having to be sure your computer can even run the game. The XBOX One got rid of all that, giving us the limitations of a console with all the work and bullshit of a PC."

ULTRA COMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Jim is on goddamn fire these last few months. I'll save this for when Video Game Birthers show up (and they will).
 
Good video. The main reason I like Steam is that I have faith I will always have my games. I'm not going to have to choose between keeping my old system or losing my games every time I get a new PC.
 
Now we're going on a different tangent. Is it not having to use Steam, which isn't true, or about cheaper prices? If it's about cheaper prices, I already get that in retail stores all the time. So that argument doesn't hold water either. Steam is a closed platform on an open OS. The simple fact is, in a lot of cases you're stuck with a closed platform on the PC. We need to get away from the illusion that there are always choices on the PC when in many cases there are not.

You don't get cheaper prices at retail stores, though. Ignoring the fact that nobody sells PC games at retail anymore, when compared with retail prices (even sales) for non-used console games at retail Steam is consistently much cheaper, especially for older titles. The key part is that people choose to buy it from steam more often than not because it's the cheapest way to acquire it, which isn't true for any digital store on consoles. So yes, price is the main point for most people, and the main point for MS as well.

Steamworks is controversial, but people don't choose to use Steam and Steam isn't dominant in that market because it's closed, since it offers a bunch of advantages despite the obvious disadvantages. The implication that needs to be addressed is that any system with the same disadvantages will have the same advantages, or that these disadvantages and these advantages are inexorably connected, when neither of which is true.

If MS wanted to set up a DD store that's just as good as Steam is, they could do it without disc authentication, but that's not what MS is trying to do.
 
Was there ever a used game market for pc games? Was there ever a point when PC games could be gotten from your local rental store? Why do we have to jump through hoops justifying Steam's killing of a market that never existed in the first place?

Used market - yes. You could buy used PC games at some stores some of the time. EB was selling used PC games for several years in the late '90s to early '00s, for instance. I still see PC jewelcase games quite regularly at Goodwill, too. And of course plenty are sold on EBay and Amazon marketplace.

Rentals - No. PC games had demos or shareware versions instead.
 

Gannd

Banned
Used market - yes. You could buy used PC games at some stores some of the time. EB was selling used PC games for several years in the late '90s to early '00s, for instance. I still see PC jewelcase games quite regularly at Goodwill, too. And of course plenty are sold on EBay and Amazon marketplace.

Rentals - No. PC games had demos or shareware versions instead.

EB Games stopped selling used PC games in 1998.
 
Pretty much all strategy games exept Starcraft for example, Total war, Civ, COH 2 ect are all perfectly playable offline. Of course a lot of big budget PC exclusives are multiplayer oriented but going by publisher very few have bad DRM schemes anymore. I mean there's blizzard and sim city? Ubisoft dropped always online, EA gave up on complicated DRM until sim city, Bethestha never tried, the smaller european publishers gave up on the starforce crap years ago and indies often have no DRM at all. And finally The asian publishers mostly make MMO's

Also, nobody is going to dispute that consoles are the main revenue stream for console type blockbuster games. I don't think thtat's linked to piracy but the taste of the main audience on the platforms.

My point is, without the consoles, those games don't get created or the budget for the game goes significantly down - meaning the cheap PC $20 sales people see aren't a function of Steam, but more a function of the fact that their primary platform is console...

People are giving credit to Steam for low prices - when they should be crediting the hordes of console buyers that end up making those games break-even, and piracy on the PC in general for multiplats that forces publishers to be happy with $5

Remove consoles, remove piracy from the PC, etc. I guarantee you publishers aren't going to have a soft heart and let you play their games for $5 :)
 
You don't get cheaper prices at retail stores, though.

But you do and that applies to both PC and console. I bought Sim City at launch cheaper at retail than I could have bought it digitally. It's especially more true with console games. Console is typically always cheaper at retail than digital.

Ignoring the fact that nobody sells PC games at retail anymore,

If by nobody you mean ignoring Toys R Us, Fry's, Target, Best Buy, WalMart and K-Mart, GameStop, Amazon, NewEgg, etc, then sure nobody sells PC games at retail anymore.

when compared with retail prices (even sales) for non-used console games at retail Steam is consistently much cheaper, especially for older titles.

Steam is only cheaper when you factor in the huge mega sales. That is what draws people to Steam and has the last few years. It's done wonders for the platform, but then you get a ton of people who simply wait for the Steam sale. It's happening right now as people wait for the Summer one to take place. DD is definitely great for older titles though since they don't take up shelf space.

The key part is that people choose to buy it from steam more often than not because it's the cheapest way to acquire it, which isn't true for any digital store on consoles. So yes, price is the main point for most people, and the main point for MS as well.

But the thing here with price though is people cite GMG on Day 1 releases of examples of how Steam is cheaper, but they completely ignore you can get similar sales from various retailers for physical console games too. Had the Xbox One went through with its terrible policies, you could have seen similar sales from competition among retailers for the physical unlockable digital games. It would have been similar. I guarantee you when the Xbox One launches, there will be sales on all the games on Day 1.

Steamworks is controversial, but people don't choose to use Steam and Steam isn't dominant in that market because it's closed, since it offers a bunch of advantages despite the obvious disadvantages. The implication that needs to be addressed is that any system with the same disadvantages will have the same advantages, or that these disadvantages and these advantages are inexorably connected, when neither of which is true.

I didn't say they chose it because it is closed. I'm saying people keep throwing around how open the PC but fail to acknowledge the fact that Steam is in fact a closed platform. With that closed platform comes restrictions. For a good chunk of PC gaming, you're stuck with Steam despite how open some people are trying to make it sound.

If MS wanted to set up a DD store that's just as good as Steam is, they could do it without disc authentication, but that's not what MS is trying to do.

Disc authentication is just like a PC physical copy being authenticated. It's the same thing. In fact it did one thing better. The ability to deregister your copy and resell it. Where MS really screwed up was the check in policy and the messaging on how this all was supposed to work among other things. I'm not saying Steam isn't better, I'm just saying Steam isn't the open freedom that people imply that it is.

My point is, without the consoles, those games don't get created or the budget for the game goes significantly down - meaning the cheap PC $20 sales people see aren't a function of Steam, but more a function of the fact that their primary platform is console...

People are giving credit to Steam for low prices - when they should be crediting the hordes of console buyers that end up making those games break-even, and piracy on the PC in general for multiplats that forces publishers to be happy with $5

Remove consoles, remove piracy from the PC, etc. I guarantee you publishers aren't going to have a soft heart and let you play their games for $5 :)

And this is a contributing factor on the low prices.
 
One point I wish Jim had touched on, is that the emergence and flourishing of digital markets for pc games was a response to the systematic destruction of the retail market for them by retailers. Retail cut themselves out of the equation, and developers and consumers responded in kind.

Microsoft are trying to drag consumers kicking and screaming into digital when it's largely unneeded. To make matters worse, they are doing it with the express purpose of helping their bottom line, rather than making content delivery possible in the first place (due to retailers not stocking anything). This is intensely undesirable.
 

of course people know there are sales on XBL, but the number of games for such sales and the magnitude for the discount just don't compare to Steam, not even close. These "sale prices" on your links are at least double the Steam sale prices.

has Tomb Raider ever been on sale for $14 on XBL? Sleeping Dogs for $6? GTA collection (3,Vice CIty,San Andreas,4,4:Episodes) for $12?
 
My point is, without the consoles, those games don't get created or the budget for the game goes significantly down - meaning the cheap PC $20 sales people see aren't a function of Steam, but more a function of the fact that their primary platform is console...

People are giving credit to Steam for low prices - when they should be crediting the hordes of console buyers that end up making those games break-even, and piracy on the PC in general for multiplats that forces publishers to be happy with $5

Remove consoles, remove piracy from the PC, etc. I guarantee you publishers aren't going to have a soft heart and let you play their games for $5 :)

Don't just make random things up to try n form an argument...
Most pc exclusive games are done by studios or publishers that don't even touch console gaming, most of those same games release for 40 euros or less and most of those games have sales within a year.

What you are saying is nothing but made up nonsense.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Now we're going on a different tangent. Is it not having to use Steam, which isn't true, or about cheaper prices? If it's about cheaper prices, I already get that in retail stores all the time. So that argument doesn't hold water either. Steam is a closed platform on an open OS. The simple fact is, in a lot of cases you're stuck with a closed platform on the PC. We need to get away from the illusion that there are always choices on the PC when in many cases there are not.

There's always a choice about where to buy the game, and the fact that Steam doesn't get a cent from purchases made outside of the Steam store puts Steam into competition even with storefronts that sell Steamworks games.
 

Jabba

Banned
So why did MS not get the chance to push their DD option as the future option? Who's to say that they could not have made their own Steam platform and bring those benefits across to console gamers? Cheap games and multiple outlets for content should not be a PC only thing right?

As long as MS would allow Steam, Gog, GMG, D2D etc....
to sell digital Xbox One content within the xbox one eco sytem, you would have a much stronger point.

Even if you could buy X1 content on Origin, etc.... then activate it, download it to your console, that might work for competition also.
 
Thing is, its taken the PC years and years to get to this point where people don't care about the Steam DRM. From cardboard discs, the certain lines on certain pages, to CD-Keys and beyond. At launch Steam was an awful pile of crap but they kept on updating it and now its pretty much the savior of PC gaming. Gamers gave them the benefit of the doubt and Valve ran with that.

Why has console gaming not been given ample enough time to prove if the DRM could work in a similar fashion? MS tried to start something and the backlash was massive.

I would say that they actually have had time and have had several models to learn from. PSN store and XBLA existed throughout this generation and this one has been really long.

And I'm not really going to be nice about this. But they don't need to be as old as Steam to get it. The model exists to replicate. They just have to do it. Complaining about us not giving MS or Sony a chance is kind of a lame excuse. If they're planning on providing us with Steam-like convenience and prices. Then they need to tell consumers, not leave people to assume it'll happen.
 

idolminds

Neo Member
There's always a choice about where to buy the game, and the fact that Steam doesn't get a cent from purchases made outside of the Steam store puts Steam into competition even with storefronts that sell Steamworks games.

That's good for competition between sellers. But as far as consumer choice goes there is an increasing number of games that no matter where you bought it from, you must use Steam to play it. Sure you can buy Skyrim from Amazon or GMG or retail, but ultimately Steam is where you will end up. You aren't given a choice there.

Reminds me of what Henry Ford said. "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black".
 
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