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[Sixfortyfive]

Don't even start with this shit. Input lag is 2013's tech catch phrase; in 2012 no-one cared about it in the slightest, now everyone claims that 'input lag' is why their kill ratio in CoD isn't perfect anymore.

Oh wow, are you serious?

Input lag is the #1 reason why I've never purchased a flat-panel TV. It's been a known issue since their widespread adoption into the marketplace. I value responsiveness in video games above almost everything else, and if I'm playing on a flat-panel display then it's typically going to be a computer monitor that doesn't ruin the latency and drive up the price with detrimental post-processing.

That said, some of the things I hear about Sony's W6 series makes even me waver a bit on this. Things have certainly improved since the last time I entertained the idea of shopping around for a TV, and I'd probably finally pick one up now if I wasn't currently in the process of selling off a lot of my existing possessions and considering a move to a new apartment in the near future.

 

[ShipTheCheese]

Oh, I will buy one. Hopefully in a month or so. Still deciding between the 50" GT60 and the VT60. Both would be a substantial upgrade from my six years old 40" 768p Sony Bravia KDL-V2000. Great TV, but it's time to join the 1080p club.

Mate, try going 60". It's fucking spectacular.

 

[Faith]

Oh, I will buy one. Hopefully in a month or so. Still deciding between the 50" GT60 and the VT60. Both would be a substantial upgrade from my six years old 40" 768p Sony Bravia KDL-V2000. Great TV, but it's time to join the 1080p club.

GT50 has no fans (VT60 makes more noise) and a better daytime performance

 

[burnfout]

So the VT60 doesn't have the input lag problem like the ST60?

Aside from that what are the other differences, 700 euro difference is a lot.

I am currently thinking about the ST60 (1300 euro) , VT60, or Sony W900 ( both 2k euro)

 

[tronic307]

So TV sets should be set to 5778K instead of 6500K?

Only if you find it to look more natural than D65. D58 is my choice, but it's more for print and photographic work than video.

 

[Waldo Lydecker]

I found a really great source on the V10 and rising blacks. This DRIVES me crazy.

Source:http://panasonic.mironto.sk/

This is scaring the shit out of me.
Is this issue of rising black levels limited to some models or do I have to fear for this to happen to a 42ST60 I am seriously considering buying?

 

[Prophet Steve]

So the VT60 doesn't have the input lag problem like the ST60?

Aside from that what are the other differences, 700 euro difference is a lot.

I am currently thinking about the ST60 (1300 euro) , VT60, or Sony W900 ( both 2k euro)

No, there is not the input lag problem on the VT60.

The other differences are a better panel, better THX profiles, better performance for the Smart TV features and some other stuff. The price difference seems high at your place though.

 

[demosthenes]

This is scaring the shit out of me.
Is this issue of rising black levels limited to some models or do I have to fear for this to happen to a 42ST60 I am seriously considering buying?

Is a dead issue. It doesn't happen anymore. My TV is 4 years old.

 

[demosthenes]

If ever? OLEDs will be common place and MUCH cheaper within a couple of years.

Sony and Panasonic just killed their joint venture on OLED and are concentrating on LCD 4 instead of OLED.

 

[Zabojnik]

Mate, try going 60". It's fucking spectacular.

Heh, I wish. For one thing, it would look ridiculous in my small living room. I'm also pretty sure you can only get the ZT60 in that size here in Europe and it costs a small fortune, about 4400€ ~ 6000$.

Please understand.

Spoiler

I haven't completely ruled out the The 55" VT60 yet.

GT50 has no fans (VT60 makes more noise) and a better daytime performance

Oh? How so? I was under the impression the better filters and whatnots on the VT60 helped with that? It's not a big problem for me anyway, since I can control the lighting.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

This is scaring the shit out of me.
Is this issue of rising black levels limited to some models or do I have to fear for this to happen to a 42ST60 I am seriously considering buying?

This hasn't been an issue with panasonic for 4 or 5 years. Don't worry about it.

 

[Rainy Dog]

That said, some of the things I hear about Sony's W6 series makes even me waver a bit on this. Things have certainly improved since the last time I entertained the idea of shopping around for a TV, and I'd probably finally pick one up now if I wasn't currently in the process of selling off a lot of my existing possessions and considering a move to a new apartment in the near future.

That's a terrific review, thanks for the link. Easily the best TV review from a gamers perspective I've come across.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Anyone with a VT60 care to comment on the fan noise? Anything you can compare it to?

 

[WonkyPanda]

Anyone with a VT60 care to comment on the fan noise? Anything you can compare it to?

So, I have a 2013 June model which is supposedly before the fix. Now, I tend to have sensitive hearing, especially higher frequency noises.

With that said, with any type of volume, I cannot hear any fan noise. Having volume and actually going behind the tv, all I can make as audible is a slight buzzing noise. With volume off and 3' from tv, I cannot hear the fan and can barely make out a buzz noise. If I put my ear about 3" from the fan, it sounds like a silent PC fan with a sort of "whir" to it. It's actually not even a distracting or intolerable sound.

I thought this video did a good job: http://youtu.be/bydAIed7BbE

 

[lostinblue]

GT50 has no fans (VT60 makes more noise) and a better daytime performance

No, not at all.

GT50's and VT50 were very and I mean VERY dim (usually hitting 90 cd/m^2). GT50 dimness being why most reviewer liked ST50 more (120 cd/m^2), not a good enough improvement seeing that caveat.

So of course it's not better than any Panasonic plasma this year well lit rooms, bar perhaps the S60 (never seen one live, so can't really say)

Anyone with a VT60 care to comment on the fan noise? Anything you can compare it to?

Mine is very silent.

You can hear the plasma buzz on whites over it; and the cable network recording box fans too.

That's a terrific review, thanks for the link. Easily the best TV review from a gamers perspective I've come across.

Of course, that forum is where twitch hardcore types lurk.

 

[H_Prestige]

I hope so too, but from all I've heard it's going to go the complete other way; but who knows? Also, if you're thinking about picking one up, I'd get moving as I believe they're getting hard to find these days.
I wholeheartedly agree though, my PS64F8500 is a stunner

What have you heard?

 

[Faith]

It was a typo, I meant GT60 and VT60.

 

[OriginalThinking]

Oh wow, are you serious?

Input lag is the #1 reason why I've never purchased a flat-panel TV. It's been a known issue since their widespread adoption into the marketplace. I value responsiveness in video games above almost everything else, and if I'm playing on a flat-panel display then it's typically going to be a computer monitor that doesn't ruin the latency and drive up the price with detrimental post-processing.

That said, some of the things I hear about Sony's W6 series makes even me waver a bit on this. Things have certainly improved since the last time I entertained the idea of shopping around for a TV, and I'd probably finally pick one up now if I wasn't currently in the process of selling off a lot of my existing possessions and considering a move to a new apartment in the near future.

Unless you're a pro gamer I think you might need to relax re the flat panel thing. I've owned 3 different flat panel TV's and I've never felt input lag was a reason for my performance good or bad in online gaming and I've never felt that it's been a problem in single player. Given that the vast majority of players (ie the competition) also play on flat panels you aren't really giving away anything.

That said, I've recently bought the Sony KDLW653 42" variant. Input lag has never been a thing for me, I just bought it because it reviews insanely well and it's a great TV. I disagree with the build quality mentioned in the review. It's solidly built and unlike a phone you aren't going to be holding or touching your TV and it looks very sleek. Black levels are very impressive coming from a 5 year old Sammy 46" LCD.

 

[lostinblue]

Thanks all and i will try the pixel jogger

Let us know how it goes, that TV should be well broken in already, so it shouldn't be too bad, it should be almost impossible to get permanent burn-in with a GT50 with more than 1000 operation hours (or any plasma).

But GT50 were the perhaps the most retention prone that year.

This is what I am getting with the PS2 hooked up to the TV with component cables.

I actually have that game in NTSC (I live in PAL-lands), popped it in and it has those bars, it's part of the source.

You need a geometry processor; google VSC-500 or 700. :x

It was a typo, I meant GT60 and VT60.

GT60 is not better than a VT60 in a well lit room.

If anything else, because the filter is inferior; it has the ST60 contrast and antiglare filters.

It's diminishing returns if you ask me (and doesn't really hurt the GT60 at all, seeing it's supposed to be cheaper), but it's not better, no.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

So, I have a 2013 June model which is supposedly before the fix. Now, I tend to have sensitive hearing, especially higher frequency noises.

With that said, with any type of volume, I cannot hear any fan noise. Having volume and actually going behind the tv, all I can make as audible is a slight buzzing noise. With volume off and 3' from tv, I cannot hear the fan and can barely make out a buzz noise. If I put my ear about 3" from the fan, it sounds like a silent PC fan with a sort of "whir" to it. It's actually not even a distracting or intolerable sound.

I thought this video did a good job: http://youtu.be/bydAIed7BbE

You can hear the plasma buzz on whites over it; and the cable network recording box fans tof course, that forum is here twitch hardcore types lurk.

Sounds acceptable enough. I plan on swinging by Best Buy this weekend. Thanks fellas.

 

[Faith]

GT60 is not better than a VT60 in a well lit room.

It is, I know it. Because of the daytime filter.

 

[OverHeat]

Had my TV recalibrated today but this time in HDMI PC mode on my Pioneer 5020fd

4:4:4 chroma work in this mode and my god it look GOOD. Everything is crystal clear now!!!

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Unless you're a pro gamer I think you might need to relax re the flat panel thing. I've owned 3 different flat panel TV's and I've never felt input lag was a reason for my performance good or bad in online gaming and I've never felt that it's been a problem in single player. Given that the vast majority of players (ie the competition) also play on flat panels you aren't really giving away anything.

Well, I'm not so full of myself to say that I'm a "pro," but I do attend, compete in, and sometimes help run fighting game tournaments, some of which were run exclusively on CRTs all the way until 2011, so.....

In any case, I generally just don't understand gamers who don't value responsiveness in their games. Interactivity is pretty much the whole point of the medium. While enough TVs these days are capable of performing within a 2-frame delay that's likely good enough for most types of games and players, I restrict my display candidates to those that are 1 frame or less. For the most part, only computer monitors have reliably met that criteria, but it's encouraging to see occasional progress in the HDTV space.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Just picked up a 50" Panasonic ST60. Fantastic TV for the price. Really good picture quality with really inky blacks and plenty of potential for further calibration. I found it to be a little green out of the box so I've calibrated mine and the colours look much more natural now.

Looks absolutely fantastic for games and pretty much any sort of visual media. Also I found all the talk about input lag to be a bit exaggerated. Either I haven't noticed it, or I've adjusted to it so quickly it hasn't been a problem.

So far the most impressive thing I've seen was the BBC's Planet Earth running on Blu-Ray. Just perfection.

 

[iMax]

The Xbox logo IR on my VT60 still hasn't faded as much as I'd like (it's only lightly visible on white, so I don't think it's permanent but it's enough to irritate me), so I think it's time for a few hours of pixel joggering. Any ideas what picture settings to use? Calibrated or Contrast/Brightness=100?

 

[pushBAK]

Don't even start with this shit. Input lag is 2013's tech catch phrase; in 2012 no-one cared about it in the slightest, now everyone claims that 'input lag' is why their kill ratio in CoD isn't perfect anymore.

If you have to ask if input lag is going to be a problem, you'll have nothing to worry about with your TV of choice; if you CAN tell the difference between 10ms input lag, then you've obviously already gone and sifted through the 100's of reviews to find out which TV will be better suited for you.

What a load of bullshit. Why in the world then are CRTs still used at EVO? Try playing a rhythm game from the PSX era on a TV from today and tell me input lag isn't a problem.

Considering we played with wired controllers, on zero-lag CRTs; vs wireless controllers on LCDs from today, it's important to try and shave off every bit of latency as possible when gaming.

You don't understand the problem. Games alrdy have an inputlag of 66ms (60fps) and 133ms (30fps) and you should prevent to add much more.

This information is completely inaccurate. There is no 'input lag due to frame rate', and the notion is idiotic. At 60fps each frame is ~16ms long, and ~32ms at 30fps. The TV refreshes 60 times a second regardless of what the frame rate is.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Why in the world then are CRTs still used at EVO?

EVO has used the Asus VH326H for the entirety of the Street Fighter 4 era, if I'm not mistaken. It has approximately 8ms of lag, and at the time they made the switch, it was one of the better values you could get for a low-latency LCD. (There are probably considerably better options out now, but they're probably not in any rush to spend a bunch on an equipment upgrade.)

Smash gets run on CRTs because Gamecubes and Wiis don't have VGA/HDMI connections. BYOC gets run on whatever equipment the players bring.

Rest of your post is on-point. I have no idea where the idea of an inherent "base lag" for video games comes from. That's almost entirely game-specific.

 

[lostinblue]

It is, I know it. Because of the daytime filter.

The daytime filter in there is the same as the one in ST60's, the more advanced filter on the VT60 being also designed for being better in light. (plasmas need no filters for contrast and antiglare providing they're on a dim room)

ST60/GT60 - Infinite Black Pro/High Contrast Filter
VT60 - Infinite Black Ultra/High Contrast Filter Pro
ZT60 - Ultimate Black/Studio Master Panel

It's 5% or so, inferior. (I've also heard measured 7%, I dunno where)


But if you're gonna go down that path, nothing personal, but I'll agree to disagree here and now.

 

[garath]

So I'm helping a friend look for a TV given that I did a boat load of research last year on the subject before buying my own and it was going to be a no brainer 50" S60 for him. Except thanks to Panasonic's exodus from the plasma world, it's become very difficult to find one. Those places that have them are charging shipping or have jacked the price up $300+.

So I fell back on some LCDs I knew were good and I'm having trouble even finding those models. I've never looked for a TV around this time of year. I'm guessing they've stopped resupplying most 2013 models? Awkward time to look I guess.

 

[U2NUMB]

I have been gaming on a 42 inch plasma the last couple years and I have been very happy with how it looks but tonight I plan on buying a 60 inch TV. I would rather not spend more than 1000 and looking at reviews this Vizio looks to be a good deal.

So hoping this tv Vizio 60"

My biggest worry is going to LED after Plasma the darks but the size of the TV is the main draw.

 

[WonkyPanda]

The Xbox logo IR on my VT60 still hasn't faded as much as I'd like (it's only lightly visible on white, so I don't think it's permanent but it's enough to irritate me), so I think it's time for a few hours of pixel joggering. Any ideas what picture settings to use? Calibrated or Contrast/Brightness=100?

How long did you let the logo cook on there? Also, how many hours do you have on your panel? Seems odd to have such a nasty case of IR.

 

[burnfout]

So I'm helping a friend look for a TV given that I did a boat load of research last year on the subject before buying my own and it was going to be a no brainer 50" S60 for him. Except thanks to Panasonic's exodus from the plasma world, it's become very difficult to find one. Those places that have them are charging shipping or have jacked the price up $300+.

So I fell back on some LCDs I knew were good and I'm having trouble even finding those models. I've never looked for a TV around this time of year. I'm guessing they've stopped resupplying most 2013 models? Awkward time to look I guess.

Sony w900 then!

 

[Wolfgang Jr]

Oh wow, are you serious?

Input lag is the #1 reason why I've never purchased a flat-panel TV. It's been a known issue since their widespread adoption into the marketplace. I value responsiveness in video games above almost everything else, and if I'm playing on a flat-panel display then it's typically going to be a computer monitor that doesn't ruin the latency and drive up the price with detrimental post-processing.

That said, some of the things I hear about Sony's W6 series makes even me waver a bit on this. Things have certainly improved since the last time I entertained the idea of shopping around for a TV, and I'd probably finally pick one up now if I wasn't currently in the process of selling off a lot of my existing possessions and considering a move to a new apartment in the near future.

What a load of bullshit. Why in the world then are CRTs still used at EVO? Try playing a rhythm game from the PSX era on a TV from today and tell me input lag isn't a problem.

Considering we played with wired controllers, on zero-lag CRTs; vs wireless controllers on LCDs from today, it's important to try and shave off every bit of latency as possible when gaming.



This information is completely inaccurate. There is no 'input lag due to frame rate', and the notion is idiotic. At 60fps each frame is ~16ms long, and ~32ms at 30fps. The TV refreshes 60 times a second regardless of what the frame rate is.

Oh my God; this is what you get for only quoting part of a post.

I said; to most Joe Blow GAFington's, input lag won't be even remotely noticeable, but to PROFESSIONAL GAMERS IT WILL BE. If you're a one who won't ever vs 'Pete from next door' on Street Fighter unless you use a CRT and wired controllers then so be it; but unless you're getting paid for it, I think you may have more problems than just being EXTREMELY sensitive to latency.

Also, please tell me: Out of all the people in this thread, asking about which LCD/OLED/Plasma television to buy; how many do you really think are worried about how dance games on the PSOne will play or if it will affect their result on the upcoming EVO championship?

 

[crashnburn]

Anyone with a Sony W802a care to comment on there experience? Want a good 55" but not sure I want to payout for the W900 series.

 

[mrklaw]

Anyone with a Sony W802a care to comment on there experience? Want a good 55" but not sure I want to payout for the W900 series.

w800 has worse blacks than the w600 due to the panel, but it has superior motion resolution. I think input lag is still very good on all the w6/8/9 sets

 

[puzl]

Sorry for being a lazy git, but I have a simple question for a purchase I intend to make:

What is objectively the best 50" TV currently available? Doesn't matter if it's plasma or LCD. Money isn't an object. It has to be 50" though, as that's all I have the space for. Thanks.

 

[i-Jest]

Anyone have a Toshiba 32L4300U? Care to share your experience?

 

[Wolfgang Jr]

Sorry for being a lazy git, but I have a simple question for a purchase I intend to make:

What is objectively the best 50" TV currently available? Doesn't matter if it's plasma or LCD. Money isn't an object. It has to be 50" though, as that's all I have the space for. Thanks.

P50ST60 would be my go to TV for a 50".

 

[Faith]

P50ST60 would be my go to TV for a 50".

And I'm still recommending the GT60 because of much lower input lag and it's overall the better TV.

 

[RoboPlato]

w800 has worse blacks than the w600 due to the panel, but it has superior motion resolution. I think input lag is still very good on all the w6/8/9 sets

Do we have hard numbers on motion resolution and black level for these sets? Motion res is HUGE for me but I do appreciate good blacks too.

 

[Faith]

Do we have hard numbers on motion resolution and black level for these sets? Motion res is HUGE for me but I do appreciate good blacks too.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/category/reviews -> best webpage for TV reviews.

 

[crashnburn]

w800 has worse blacks than the w600 due to the panel, but it has superior motion resolution. I think input lag is still very good on all the w6/8/9 sets

Speaking subjectively, If I wanted a good picture but am not an obsessive videophile (no offense to those that are), would the w802 be much of a noticeable compromise?

 

[Wolfgang Jr]

And I'm still recommending the GT60 because of much lower input lag and it's overall the better TV.

Oops, yes, GT60 indeed - forgot you guys had access to that model.

 

[James Chilton]

Speaking subjectively, If I wanted a good picture but am not an obsessive videophile (no offense to those that are), would the w802 be much of a noticeable compromise?

I have a W800 and it has a really really good picture and it feels so good to game on compared to my LG LW5600. Get it!

 

[RoboPlato]

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/category/reviews -> best webpage for TV reviews.

I'm in the US. Models tend to differ by region.

 

[iMax]

How long did you let the logo cook on there? Also, how many hours do you have on your panel? Seems odd to have such a nasty case of IR.

It's always on the dashboard, so it comes up a lot. I haven't left it on there for more than 20 minutes, but it won't seem to go. TV's around 200 hours old now but it was set to Dynamic for the first 100 or so.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

So I broke down and got a 60" VT60.

I went to or called 5 different stores near me and nobody had any VTs in stock and weren't going to be getting any more, so I went ahead and bought at Amazon.

Does anybody have any experience with delivery from Amazon? How exactly does it work, and who is going to be delivering it? I scheduled a time for it to be delivered so I'm assuming it's some kind of service? They didn't have that "white glove guarantee" or whatever that they used to have pasted all over their tv product pages so I don't know what to expect. Should I have these dudes set it up and make sure everything is working properly?

I've never had a TV delivered because I was afraid it would just get smashed or fucked up. I have horrible luck with these kinds of things so I'm full on expecting this thing to have something wrong with it when it gets here.

 

[CoG]

I've had my last three TVs delivered by Amazon. They are great. They'll come in and set it up for you if you want. Even take away the box. I usually tip them $10 but not sure if they are looking for a tip.

 

[Wolfgang Jr]

So I broke down and got a 60" VT60.

I went to or called 5 different stores near me and nobody had any VTs in stock and weren't going to be getting any more, so I went ahead and bought at Amazon.

Does anybody have any experience with delivery from Amazon? How exactly does it work, and who is going to be delivering it? I scheduled a time for it to be delivered so I'm assuming it's some kind of service? They didn't have that "white glove guarantee" or whatever that they used to have pasted all over their tv product pages so I don't know what to expect. Should I have these dudes set it up and make sure everything is working properly?

I've never had a TV delivered because I was afraid it would just get smashed or fucked up. I have horrible luck with these kinds of things so I'm full on expecting this thing to have something wrong with it when it gets here.

Holy shit; I would never let a delivery dude touch any of my electrical gear! I'd let them drop it off where you want it (living room), making sure they don't bump any walls (60" box is pretty big!) and demand them to get the fuck out; I love opening that big brown box myself

If anything bad happens, complain to Amazon to sort it out; don't get too upset if it all doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world - Amazon will have your back.

 

[garath]

Holy shit; I would never let a delivery dude touch any of my electrical gear! I'd let them drop it off where you want it (living room), making sure they don't bump any walls (60" box is pretty big!) and demand them to get the fuck out; I love opening that big brown box myself

If anything bad happens, complain to Amazon to sort it out; don't get too upset if it all doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world - Amazon will have your back.

I let the delivery guys open it up and let me plug it in and turn it on before they go. I want to see it working properly before they get to leave. I'm not going to be responsible for shipping back a broken TV.

That said, they don't leave my sight