Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen

So, why do LCD/LED TVs have such poor quality speakers? Size is not an excuse. How the fuck can these tiny ass tablets have amazing sound quality, but, these TVs not? Is it a tech issue or just a money issue?

In the eternal chase for making TVs thinner and thinner, it is no longer possible to fit a large speaker on a TV chassis anymore. They can't even make speakers small enough to point forward anymore, most of the thin LED-LCDs today have the speakers point downwards into the base because only the slightly fatter bottom of the TV even has room for a speaker and they can't even point forwards towards the viewer.

One thing I like about my VT60 is that Panasonic fitted actual speakers which actually point forward and it has pretty decent sound quality. I don't have cable anymore and pull in local stations with an antenna and it's nice to be able to listen to the TV speakers because I don't even know how I would route over-the-air TV sound to a receiver.
 
Anybody manage to get an N64 to work on a new Panasonic plasma? I have an ST60 and can't seem to get it to work.

Hmm what country are you in?

I have the VT60 and my Sega Genesis worked fine(composite). I don't see why my N64 wouldn't work either via composite. *I miss S-Video :(
 
I have had my Sony 55W905 for a few days now. So far I am quite happy with it, but I keep wondering how a plasma screen would handle certain darker images and if the screen quality is really that much better.
The screen quality of the Sony is mind-blowing at times and most bad things about the screen are only visible when the screen has black or very light backgrounds.
I have still the option to trade in my tv for a Panasonic VT60, but I really like the thin bezels of the Sony and I have my concerns about the IR of plasma tv's.
 
Anybody manage to get an N64 to work on a new Panasonic plasma? I have an ST60 and can't seem to get it to work.
I have the VT60 and my N64 runs without any problems.
WP_20140107_004_zpsf6cc986a.jpg
 
yes it is :(

I spent 2 months researching and debating TVs before finally buying one. And it was a compromise.
Yep, I actually wish I didn't care so much about making the "right" choice when it comes to buying a TV... it drives me (and my wife) mad. Every TV comes with caveats, even if budget is not a factor.

When friends/family ask me what TV they should buy for themselves I usually tell them to go to a store with the budget and size in mind and just choose the one that looks the best to them and let me know the make/model. I'll do some quick research and as long as there are no glaring issues I won't stand in the way... ignorance really is bliss when using your TV if you are happy with it.
 
I quite like the new Sharp and Sony LCDs. I am thinking of going with one of them since the 60"+ plasmas are very expensive now. Anyone know how the Sharp LCDs are regarding input lag? Any recommended websites that test for this?
 
Yep, I actually wish I didn't care so much about making the "right" choice when it comes to buying a TV... it drives me (and my wife) mad. Every TV comes with caveats, even if budget is not a factor.

When friends/family ask me what TV they should buy for themselves I usually tell them to go to a store with the budget and size in mind and just choose the one that looks the best to them and let me know the make/model. I'll do some quick research and as long as there are no glaring issues I won't stand in the way... ignorance really is bliss when using your TV if you are happy with it.

you nailed it. Exactly what the process is like. Ignorance is bliss. Every TV is a compromise - price, picture quality, size, inherent faults.

I quite like the new Sharp and Sony LCDs. I am thinking of going with one of them since the 60"+ plasmas are very expensive now. Anyone know how the Sharp LCDs are regarding input lag? Any recommended websites that test for this?

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

It's not completely by any means but it has a nice start. Also CNET is now testing for input lag for their more current reviews.

avsforum.com is a great resource. Lots of hardcore a/v guys posting in there. I usually browse the "official" thread of whatever TV I'm looking at for awhile to see what sort of issues are popping up.
 
Guys what kind of protection plans should I get? I can only buy my TV through Amazon. is it worth spending the extra money? I know Walmarts protection plan sucks (i work there), but, I really don't want something to happen.
 
you nailed it. Exactly what the process is like. Ignorance is bliss. Every TV is a compromise - price, picture quality, size, inherent faults.



http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

It's not completely by any means but it has a nice start. Also CNET is now testing for input lag for their more current reviews.

avsforum.com is a great resource. Lots of hardcore a/v guys posting in there. I usually browse the "official" thread of whatever TV I'm looking at for awhile to see what sort of issues are popping up.

If you think ignorance is bliss, definitely don't do any research on AVS. They'll even freak out about problems that are impossible to notice.
 
If you think ignorance is bliss, definitely don't do any research on AVS. They'll even freak out about problems that are impossible to notice.

Oh I can't live in ignorance. Lol. But a family member or coworker will get minimal info from me. I don't want to pass on that stress.
 
I have had my Sony 55W905 for a few days now. So far I am quite happy with it, but I keep wondering how a plasma screen would handle certain darker images and if the screen quality is really that much better.
The screen quality of the Sony is mind-blowing at times and most bad things about the screen are only visible when the screen has black or very light backgrounds.
I have still the option to trade in my tv for a Panasonic VT60, but I really like the thin bezels of the Sony and I have my concerns about the IR of plasma tv's.

Don't worry about IR, it's pretty much gone. I would trade, only things that are better:

ZT60
OLED
 
So, why do LCD/LED TVs have such poor quality speakers? Size is not an excuse. How the fuck can these tiny ass tablets have amazing sound quality, but, these TVs not? Is it a tech issue or just a money issue?

Panasonic seems to be the only TV maker that gives a damn about sound these days. Even their LED sets have very decent speakers in them.
 
Lurking avs from the W6 series TV and i'm seriously considering not buying it. Nobody seems to be happy with it. Every model has horrible banding and DSE and dead pixels. It seems every single person has huge issues. Should I hold off on this?
 
Don't worry about IR, it's pretty much gone. I would trade, only things that are better:

ZT60
OLED

wouldn't go that far as my st50 has had IR before while playing games with static huds on them for to long. But I did have the contrast too high which may have accounted for this, also it went away pretty quickly when you watch full screen content on it so I wouldn't worry to much about it. I think you meant burn in is pretty much gone these days but IR still happens every now and then if your not careful or are using somebody's settings with the contrast to high.
 
Lurking avs from the W6 series TV and i'm seriously considering not buying it. Nobody seems to be happy with it. Every model has horrible banding and DSE and dead pixels. It seems every single person has huge issues. Should I hold off on this?

I suppose it depends on how sensitive to IQ 'issues' you are'.
I'm loving my W653 and everyone who has seen it has said how good the image is but then none of us are cinephiles and probably wouldn't even notice some of the issues that drive AVS insane. I've had no dead pixels, no noticable banding and the black levels are fine, it's a much better tv than my previous one so i'm happy. Especially when gaming, it's superb.
A couple of my friends have the same model all bought in the month or two before christmas and i've noticed no obvious defects on their units either.

Maybe i'm just old and knackered :)
 
Lurking avs from the W6 series TV and i'm seriously considering not buying it. Nobody seems to be happy with it. Every model has horrible banding and DSE and dead pixels. It seems every single person has huge issues. Should I hold off on this?

Fuck this TV. Mine is riddled with DSE and banding issues, horizontal and vertical. Everytime I move the camera around in a game, they're there. Everytime the camera pans in a movie, they're there. No sir, I don't recommend this piece of shit.
 
I suppose it depends on how sensitive to IQ 'issues' you are'.
I'm loving my W653 and everyone who has seen it has said how good the image is but then none of us are cinephiles and probably wouldn't even notice some of the issues that drive AVS insane. I've had no dead pixels, no noticable banding and the black levels are fine, it's a much better tv than my previous one so i'm happy. Especially when gaming, it's superb.
A couple of my friends have the same model all bought in the month or two before christmas and i've noticed no obvious defects on their units either.

Maybe i'm just old and knackered :)

Well I'm spending $600+ I'd hope I have something really good. I have banding problems and DSE on both my CRTs. The banding isn't noticeable while gaming, but, on regular TV watching? Very noticeable. The DSE on my other CRT is very noticeable and half the screen is missing now.
 
Fuck this TV. Mine is riddled with DSE and banding issues, horizontal and vertical. Everytime I move the camera around in a game, they're there. Everytime the camera pans in a movie, they're there. No sir, I don't recommend this piece of shit.

That sums up pretty much every LCD to be fair. They've been worse and worse since prices came down, form factors got thinner and screen sizes got bigger.
 
Fuck this TV. Mine is riddled with DSE and banding issues, horizontal and vertical. Everytime I move the camera around in a game, they're there. Everytime the camera pans in a movie, they're there. No sir, I don't recommend this piece of shit.

Just get a plasma already.
 
I'm curious now. Is there a site i can go to that would show me how bad the banding and DSE are on the W6 series? I have the KDL42W653 if that makes any difference.

Alim & jett, from the sounds of it you need to get a plasma like JB said.
 
So then I can suffer image retention, dithering and worse input lag. Human beings have failed at technology. Back to living in caves for us.

I almost felt the same way as you but after going through 7 highly rated LED TV's, 3 Samsung, 3 Vizio, and a Sony, I finally realized all LED edge lit TV's are shit. The W900a is the only one I'd consider owning at this point but it still suffers from clouding and flashlighting. It also only comes in a 55", I wanted a 60".

I just got a 60" VT60 last week and it kicks every LED edge lit TV I've seen in the ass. The color depth is beyond what LED edge lit tech can produce. The Samsung F7100's I tried had an input lag of 36ms, the VT60 supposedly has about 10ms more lag, but it's not noticeable. The average eye blink takes 100-200 ms, 30-40ms isn't going to ruin your life. My K/D has not suffered at all from having an extra 10ms of lag.

As far as dithering goes, the only time I've seen it is with my face 1ft from the screen looking for dead / stuck pixels when I first turned on the set. You can't see dithering from 6-8ft away on a 60".

Also people blow IR way out of proportion. You don't need to worry about it. People will watch a show for 30min, run slides, then go hunting for IR .... Whaaaattt ? Why ? If they didn't look for it, they'd never notice it, and it would just go away by itself. Just don't leave static images up for hours and you'll be alright.
 
I almost felt the same way as you but after going through 7 highly rated LED TV's, 3 Samsung, 3 Vizio, and a Sony, I finally realized all LED edge lit TV's are shit. The W900a is the only one I'd consider owning at this point but it still suffers from clouding and flashlighting. It also only comes in a 55", I wanted a 60".

I just got a 60" VT60 last week and it kicks every LED edge lit TV I've seen in the ass. The color depth is beyond what LED edge lit tech can produce. The Samsung F7100's I tried had an input lag of 36ms, the VT60 supposedly has about 10ms more lag, but it's not noticeable. The average eye blink takes 100-200 ms, 30-40ms isn't going to ruin your life. My K/D has not suffered at all from having an extra 10ms of lag.

As far as dithering goes, the only time I've seen it is with my face 1ft from the screen looking for dead / stuck pixels when I first turned on the set. You can't see dithering from 6-8ft away on a 60".

Also people blow IR way out of proportion. You don't need to worry about it. People will watch a show for 30min, run slides, then go hunting for IR .... Whaaaattt ? Why ? If they didn't look for it, they'd never notice it, and it would just go away by itself. Just don't leave static images up for hours and you'll be alright.

Panasonic has pretty much quit selling plasmas where I live so I don't have the choice even if I wanted to go down that route.
 
I'm curious now. Is there a site i can go to that would show me how bad the banding and DSE are on the W6 series? I have the KDL42W653 if that makes any difference.

Alim & jett, from the sounds of it you need to get a plasma like JB said.

I can't. Not unless they make it 32".So basically every LCD/LED TV is shit and I have to deal with horrific banding and DSE?
 
I can't. Not unless they make it 32".So basically every LCD/LED TV is shit and I have to deal with horrific banding and DSE?

I'm sure there are some high-end 32" LCD TVs that are close to Plasma IQ levels but i wouldn't know them unfortunately. I was just commenting on the fact that LCD seems to be massively offensive to your eyes which to me means you need to look at Plasma.

Are there any IPS/OLED screens or what about Triluminos? Is there a showroom near you where you can look at the different panel types?
 
So the VT60 has better input lag than the ST60? I currently own a Panasonic plasma PZ85u and I have not noticed input lag to be an issue at all. I guess things got worse over the years?
 
Saving for a new tv now. Buying one of either Sony or Samsungs 2014 UHD models available in April. After my tax return I should have enough by April.
 
I'm sure there are some high-end 32" LCD TVs that are close to Plasma IQ levels but i wouldn't know them unfortunately. I was just commenting on the fact that LCD seems to be massively offensive to your eyes which to me means you need to look at Plasma.

Are there any IPS/OLED screens or what about Triluminos? Is there a showroom near you where you can look at the different panel types?

I've never owned an LCD/LED TV. I'm coming from an old CRT with huge IQ issues. I'm already dealing with horrible banding/DSE on both my CRTs. It would be disappointing to shell out so much for the same issues.
 
You won't find high end 32" TV's, theyre all for the masses with low quiality.

No low quality LCD will match a Plasma IQ, not even the high end ones, triluminos or whatever you want to call them. Only TV with VA panel can barely compete for contrast but with worse colors.

Sony had his own non organic OLED alternative, Crystal LED (CES 2012 I think) seems dead.

Sadly for us, they want to squeeze cra*p LCD tech more years with the useless 4K.

Why?
No 4K cable programming for a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long time
No physical format, blu ray is too expensive when you need a minimum of 4 layers

Streaming?
Good luck with your US ISP friends applying limits to your bandwith, they don't want to lose cable subs.
 
So then I can suffer image retention, dithering and worse input lag.

Don't forget line bleed and buzzing! Buzzing is what caused me to return 3 Panny plasmas. I wish my ears weren't so sensitive to it because otherwise that's what I'd have right now.
 
You won't find high end 32" TV's, theyre all for the masses with low quiality.

No low quality LCD will match a Plasma IQ, not even the high end ones, triluminos or whatever you want to call them. Only TV with VA panel can barely compete for contrast but with worse colors.

Sony had his own non organic OLED alternative, Crystal LED (CES 2012 I think) seems dead.

Sadly for us, they want to squeeze cra*p LCD tech more years with the useless 4K.

Why?
No 4K cable programming for a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long time
No physical format, blu ray is too expensive when you need a minimum of 4 layers

Streaming?
Good luck with your US ISP friends applying limits to your bandwith, they don't want to lose cable subs.

I love how Netflix supposedly has 4K in the works. They can't deliver anything close to BluRay quality 1080p but somehow they're going to deliver 4K ? Yeah..... OK

Without a physical format, 4K will die. Might as well wait for the next "must have" TV tech, 8K or 4D.

The thing that confuses me most about 4K is, besides BluRay there's nothing out there to max out the potential of our 1080p sets yet. Even BluRays are hit and miss, with major studios putting out half assed transfers that are barely above DVD quality. Our 1080p TV's potential is limited by the current state of HD media services, not the other way around.
 
Anyone got a recommendation for a 60" that can be found for near $1,000 at either a Best Buy or Frys? They both price match Amazon and other internet retailers...

Thanks!
 
The thing that confuses me most about 4K is, besides BluRay there's nothing out there to max out the potential of our 1080p sets yet. Even BluRays are hit and miss, with major studios putting out half assed transfers that are barely above DVD quality. Our 1080p TV's potential is limited by the current state of HD media services, not the other way around.
Well, 4K is diminishing returns. At the recommended viewing distance your eyes simply can't take all that detail in; see, the actual 1080p screens at the recommended viewing distance are already "retina". (retina being the technical term used by Apple a other competitors for high resolution screens who at the meant distance achieve 300 ppi's. TV's are not to be seen at arms length so truth to be told, HD is HD or rather it's 300 ppi's when filling the recommended 30/36 degrees of vision.

Hence the proposed 4K video standards actually reduce the quality per macroblock in comparison to regular 2K Bluray, because you sure as hell won't notice (and because bit rate is an expensive thing). And still, it's selling snake oil at this point.

If 4K misses it's target (and I don't think it will, because people are suckers for "extra detail" I mean look at photographic cameras, they value that numeric value over quality; they get closer and they're seeing detail they couldn't see before, and therefore think they could see it from the sofa) I think the next step is trying to change the ratio again, LG and Toshiba are showing a 5K tv's on CES and by 5K we mean 2.37:1. Why? because those cinema movies with bars are 2.39:1 - They might try to sell that next.

8K would be suicidal and aimless.
Don't forget line bleed and buzzing! Buzzing is what caused me to return 3 Panny plasmas. I wish my ears weren't so sensitive to it because otherwise that's what I'd have right now.
I'm trying not to sound like a douche whilst saying this but...

Have you considered looking into insonorisation? There are materials to "kill" sound that is not aimed at you. Buzzing goes from the back (as does fan noise) so it could be reduced by the surface that receives it absorving it rather than reflecting it. If you mount it on the wall you won't even have to cover a big surface, and if you want to go further you could build a depression on the wall (fake wall) and therefore crate a barrier and embed the TV on it, sound from the back would be sealed that way.

I've seen some pretty solid attempts at that, with rotating supporting arms (like this, but not as flimsy and actually built on a depression), meaning the TV's can still be distanced a little and rotated.

I never had the need to consider it, but controlling the way sound bounces of the walls is a normal thing for enthusiasts to invest on personal cinema rooms. Cinemas, theathers and auditoriums also have that of course.
 
Well, 4K is diminishing returns. At the recommended viewing distance your eyes simply can't take all that detail in; see, the actual 1080p screens at the recommended viewing distance are already "retina". (retina being the technical term used by Apple a other competitors for high resolution screens who at the meant distance achieve 300 ppi's. TV's are not to be seen at arms length so truth to be told, HD is HD or rather it's 300 ppi's when filling the recommended 30/36 degrees of vision.

Hence the proposed 4K video standards actually reduce the quality per macroblock in comparison to regular 2K Bluray, because you sure as hell won't notice (and because bit rate is an expensive thing). And still, it's selling snake oil at this point.

If 4K misses it's target (and I don't think it will, because people are suckers for "extra detail" I mean look at photographic cameras, they value that numeric value over quality; they get closer and they're seeing detail they couldn't see before, and therefore think they could see it from the sofa) I think the next step is trying to change the ratio again, LG and Toshiba are showing a 5K tv's on CES and by 5K we mean 2.37:1. Why? because those cinema movies with bars are 2.39:1 - They might try to sell that next.

8K would be suicidal and aimless.

I don't think 2.37:1 TV's will sell that well ( they're not new, there have already been a couple on the market). I install cable/internet for a living, and one thing the masses hate is "black bars" on the sides of their picture. They would rather watch a stretched out picture that makes everyone look like a double wide trailer. As of right now every broadcast ( 1.73:1) would have side bars. Can you imagine watching 4x3 content on that thing ? Even worse, watching it stretched to fill the screen ? Oh god, that would look bad.
 
So I just bought a Panasonic S64 TV at Costco for $639.98. And I didn't need to buy a membership (thanks to a friend).

I'm in Canada, and the S60 (which is worse) is still $700 to $800.

I'm just now reading CES news, but I see Panasonic hasn't announced much? And there's no 4K tvs under $2000, right?
 
I don't think 2.37:1 TV's will sell that well ( they're not new, there have already been a couple on the market). I install cable/internet for a living, and one thing the masses hate is "black bars" on the sides of their picture. They would rather watch a stretched out picture that makes everyone look like a double wide trailer. As of right now every broadcast ( 1.73:1) would have side bars. Can you imagine watching 4x3 content on that thing ? Even worse, watching it stretched to fill the screen ? Oh god, that would look bad.
I agree with you, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying that they always need a "next big thing", it's 4K this soon only because 3D didn't cut it and OLED is seemingly late.

We spent what... 10 years with 4:3 tv channels on 16:9? some of us seeing them stretched over the black bars as you've said. 4:3 would obviously look very bad on 2.40:1 but for 16:9 (even if anamorphic 640x480) it would be the very same thing [as 4:3 on 16:9]]. I can imagine them actually trying and this time do marketing and create the infrastructure (films in 2.40:1 at that resolution? dunno) to sell it.

Anyway, I'm betting on that before 8K or 3D sans-glasses gets pitched solely because it means less individual pixels per panel than any of those options... But I don't think 4K is gonna flunk as much as 3D did, although I don't expect adoption to be that fast. (makes no sense for it to be tbh)
 
So I just bought a Panasonic S64 TV at Costco for $639.98. And I didn't need to buy a membership (thanks to a friend).

I'm in Canada, and the S60 (which is worse) is still $700 to $800.
Killer deal.

Congratulations.
I'm just now reading CES news, but I see Panasonic hasn't announced much? And there's no 4K tvs under $2000, right?
Panasonic has their hands tied.

They closed LCD manufacturing last year to repurpose it for OLED manufacturing and that Sony-Panasonic OLED alliance just backfired on their faces.

And they closed the Plasma plants now, so... It's VA-panel Edge Lit LCD's this year. If they manage to be nowhere as good as the Sony ones (seeing sony is also not manufacturing panels) then they could be pretty good.

But as it is, Samsung and Sony have quite a bit more experience with flagship LCD's than they do, Sony's Motionflow/strobbing and Samsung's LCD motion compensation being hard to beat, judging from their 4K TV impressions.

Still seems solid, but they are obviously playing catch up now after many years of putting their eggs on another basket.

I hope they regain their footing.


On the other hand... Sharp lineup seemed pretty solid, which was surprising, they were losing steam lately.
 
Fuck this TV. Mine is riddled with DSE and banding issues, horizontal and vertical. Everytime I move the camera around in a game, they're there. Everytime the camera pans in a movie, they're there. No sir, I don't recommend this piece of shit.

I know exactly how you feel, as I went through a half dozens sets a few years back trying to figure out if anyone in the industry knew how to make an LCD set that didn't suffer from all that bullshit.

In my experience Panasonic is the only manufacturer who gets close, and yes, I'm talking their LCD lineup. No, their sets won't win black level awards, but the key things they do better than anyone else are a lack of banding and DSE. I've got a D30 models from years ago and I can tell you I've got absolutely none of either. It's pretty wonderful. Only thing that sucks is that it's a 42 inch set, and I want much bigger now.

So I would sincerely suggest anyone who wants a LCD/LED tv for gaming take a hands on look at a Panasonic. Currently the D60 is the best option they offer. Input lag is 33ms or so. I'd give it a shot.

So the VT60 has better input lag than the ST60? I currently own a Panasonic plasma PZ85u and I have not noticed input lag to be an issue at all. I guess things got worse over the years?

Yes, it seems that is the case.

The thing that confuses me most about 4K is, besides BluRay there's nothing out there to max out the potential of our 1080p sets yet. Even BluRays are hit and miss, with major studios putting out half assed transfers that are barely above DVD quality. Our 1080p TV's potential is limited by the current state of HD media services, not the other way around.

This is exactly why I feel 4K tvs are a laughable idea right now. We aren't even seeing real 1080p signals from a cable/dish providers right now. The only genuine 1080p content we have is Blurays and just recently videogame consoles. 4K is coming 5-7 years too early, because TV manufacturers are desperate to try and put out something "new".
 
So I just bought a Panasonic S64 TV at Costco for $639.98. And I didn't need to buy a membership (thanks to a friend).

I'm in Canada, and the S60 (which is worse) is still $700 to $800.

I'm just now reading CES news, but I see Panasonic hasn't announced much? And there's no 4K tvs under $2000, right?

Panasonic only has some LCDs. Vizio just announced a slew of 4k LCDs under $2k

VIZIO P-Series Ultra HD Full-Array LED backlit LCD Smart TVs
(P502ui-B1) $999.99 (MSRP)
(P552ui-B2) $1,399.99 (MSRP)
(P602ui-B3) $1,799.99 (MSRP)
(P652ui-B2) $2,199.99 (MSRP)
(P702ui-B3) $2,599.99 (MSRP)
 
Anyone got a recommendation for a 60" that can be found for near $1,000 at either a Best Buy or Frys? They both price match Amazon and other internet retailers...

Thanks!

There is a very slight chance you can track down a Panasonic 60" U50 at Walmart for $630-$800. It's the 2012 S60 precursor, so they have pulled them from the sales floor and a handful of locations have forgotten units in the stock room. You can check inventory only on the mobile site. If you find a store that says Limited Stock, go in person and make them check the back--they may or may not have some. Officially they don't match their website prices, but take a print out of the $628 anyways and try. Performance is comparable if not identical to the S60 and it has the lowest measured lag of any contemporary PDP.
 
Okay, so I just saw that through my company's EPP with Sony, the 55" W900a is priced at $1599.99. The Panasonic 55VT60 is $1595 on Amazon right now.

I've read through this thread for many months. I started looking at the S60, but my bright viewing space scared me, then missed the boat on the Costco S64, was afraid of input lag on the ST60 line (and now they're unavailable in my area), and now here I am...not sure if I'm enough of a PQ nut to commit to either of these. But I know its nearly the cream of the crop for LED and Plasma this past year, respectively.

I....am....torn....
 
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