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‘The Walking Dead’ – Season 6, Part 2 – Sundays on AMC

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Sendero

Member
It still wouldn't make up for it, but maybe one way to save a little face and make the audience feel once more like no one is truly safe is for S7 to open with Negan killing TWO major characters. Like, say it's Glenn who he's killing at the end of S6, and Daryl tries to attack Negan or whatever, violating the "if anyone moves, they die" rule, and Negan offs him too.
I thought about that too, but I feel that if you already delayed the surprise that much, you should probably develop more the situation/characters and spread further deaths in the next (let's say) 5 chapters.

As long as they very clearly hint that more people are going to kick the bucket soon, it should be enough.


I just still can't comprehend why they felt they needed to leave it as cliffhanger. It reduces the impact of the finale itself, you run the very real risk of getting your surprise leaked, and unless you kill Daryl/Glenn/Maggie or Michonne, nobody is going to care by then.

And if its Glenn, well, they already had the fake death (so people already mourned him). And if it's Daryl, well, he will host a new show. So it's even less than that.
 

CorvoSol

Member
The Savior's rapidly fluctuating power level is insane. They went from being completely unable to scratch our heroes in the first two encounters to being magic forest ninjas who can instantly set up a giant cordon of roadblocks.

Also they have a vast and unseen intelligence network capable of knowing the exact moment all of our group have left Alexandria so that they can assign their lumberjack core to silently log a forest to establish a roadblock, and Negan is literally able to read character bios as he looks at people's faces.
 

BibiMaghoo

Member
My money is on Abraham. All the odd personal moments he has had of late I'm sure is the build up. He is important enough to matter, but not important enough to really matter. It would be a good move in my opinion. Glenn is out because they already killed him once. Defo not Rick or Carl. Eugine already has a pasty face, Daryl has been shot and Maggie could die as is.
 

jett

D-Member
That's because AMC doesn't have complete ownership of Breaking Bad and Mad Men. Sony owns BB and Lionsgate owns Mad Men.

The one show that has been dicked around with horrid budgets, firing of talent has been... Walking Dead, because Walking Dead is 100% owned by AMC.

This is something I think people need to know because it explains the huge quality gap between shows. Those other shows were protected by the other owners from AMC.

I did not know this. That explains some shit.
 

dubq

Member
If he's anything like comic Negan, he wouldn't kill Maggie. I think Glenn would be too obvious, as everyone would know about that death by now. My money is on Eugene.
 

taybul

Member
If he's anything like comic Negan, he wouldn't kill Maggie. I think Glenn would be too obvious, as everyone would know about that death by now. My money is on Eugene.

Everyone was expecting Negan to show up eventually so why end on a cliffhanger
when everyone is also expecting the receiving end to be Glenn
?
 
I give a lot of credit to this show for doing it's own thing and not completely following the comic. Especially with this last one.
 

Cappa

Banned
in the Walking Dead Spoiler thread someone posted a vimeo link to a fan-edited finale video on how it "should" have ended.

Well worth it but be warned... huge spoilers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Paradicia

Member
Looks like Maggie and Negan get along just fine after the apocalypse is over.

Z6cXbEx.jpg
 

Surfinn

Member
Basic logic? Am I not part of that said audience now? Because last I checked I am, and I was impressed by Negan's presence on screen, I'm also looking forward to how he's actions evolve the group.

Negan killing one of the main crew isn't something I was anticipating, now that someone has been killed, we'll find out in due time, which is inevitable, the argument here isn't about it's relevance to the story, that is a given, the argument is how much it detracts from this particular episode if it was cut in. And I will stand by this ending because of how well it was executed. A introductory character piece about Negan demonstrating he's capabilities, resources, personality, and a standard for things to come.

I understand the importance and relevance of the killed character, but it's not going to hurt the entertainment value of an entire episode because I didn't get my answer. For me the identity of the killed character does not matter in this episode, Negan mattered.

Of course you are, but are you honestly telling me that killing one of the original characters from Atlanta or the farm has the same impact as killing literally ANYONE ELSE on the show? That's what I was referencing.

Out of curiosity.. have you read the issue from the comic (the one that was represented in the finale)? Because I find it hard to believe you cannot understand how the moment was totally ruined by not having the same level of impact. That was the entire point of introducing Negan, not for him to strut around and look cool. It was all tied into one package with the main purpose of emotionally sucker-punching the main characters and the audience through the brutality of his actions.
 

Hylian7

Member
Apparently the death hasn't even been filmed yet, so who knows if they've even decided who it's going to be.

http://link.hollywoodreporter.com/c...nMtODgwNDc1/5230c802191b2a646d8c0eafB64027fab

I think it's the best way to wrap up this story. Honestly, and this is going to sound ridiculous, but I thought it would have been a little cheap to kill a major character in the last few minutes of the show.

Shane, Andrea, those people that we forgot about that died in the CDC at the end of season 1, the thing that the CDC guy whispered to Rick being held over our heads for an entire season, Hershel, Beth, none of these were "major characters" killed in the last few minutes of the show? lol
 
You know what would've been a ballsy and amazing ending to this season ?
Showing the death on screen, revealing who's the character dying... then Negan picking up another mysterious victim this time, filling both the cliffhanger AND the character death. How do you take on what people expect ? Doing what no one expect.
 
Also they have a vast and unseen intelligence network capable of knowing the exact moment all of our group have left Alexandria so that they can assign their lumberjack core to silently log a forest to establish a roadblock, and Negan is literally able to read character bios as he looks at people's faces.

The implication being that the groups they ran into and defeated before were just tendrils of a much larger beast that was otherwise occupied.

Once they put actual effort into shutting Rick's group down, it just took a few days. Remember, Abraham and/or Sasha only survived the initial encounter because Daryl had a rocket launcher.

He knows who they are because he has half of the mains in chains.
 

bidguy

Banned
You know what would've been a ballsy and amazing ending to this season ?
Showing the death on screen, revealing who's the character dying... then Negan picking up another mysterious victim this time, filling both the cliffhanger AND the character death. How do you take on what people expect ? Doing what no one expect.

yea this would have been amazing

sadly amc is run by monkeys
 

PopeReal

Member
While I feel the cliff hanger was a bit silly and not needed, the rest of the episode I really enjoyed. It was pretty tense and Andrew Lincoln was simply spectacular the whole time. That guy can flat out act. He made me feel just as freaked out as he was. While I admit I don't watch many shows on my cable subscription to compare (other than a couple things its a sports box), I was fucking impressed to see such acting on a sunday night cable show. Props.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Oh man, I didn't see that AVclub review until just now.

That last paragraph:

This is lousy, manipulative storytelling, a cliffhanger that robs a powerful moment (because good or bad, watching Negan beat someone we kind of like to death would’ve been powerful) of its effect for the mercenary purpose of dragging this nonsense out just a little bit further. When you’re telling a story, you want your audience to keep watching, so sometimes you use tricks to keep them watching, but the promise between you and your viewers is that those tricks will never get in the way of the story itself. The tricks will never become the point. But for The Walking Dead, the tricks are all that’s left. The show can only dangle poisoned treats in front of us, dropping them month by month, year by year, until we finally choke on them.
 
While I feel the cliff hanger was a bit silly and not needed, the rest of the episode I really enjoyed. It was pretty tense and Andrew Lincoln was simply spectacular the whole time. That guy can flat out act. He made me feel just as freaked out as he was. While I admit I don't watch many shows on my cable subscription to compare (other than a couple things its a sports box), I was fucking impressed to see such acting on a sunday night cable show. Props.

Yeah, he looked terrified after they were captured by Negan. The show's definitely had its ups and downs but I think Lincoln's been great as Rick.
 

Symphonia

Banned
This episode had so much goddamn potential but, in true AMC style, they completely fucking butchered it. The first forty or so minutes were brilliant. It was full of tension, everyone was on fine form and truly brought their respective characters to life, and the cinematography was beautiful. But all that went to shit after the Negan reveal. Negan himself wasn't the problem. In fact, I'd say Jeffrey Dean Morgan stole the entire show with his perfect portrayal of Negan. You could tell that this man is truly unhinged, and not to be fucked around with. I felt true terror as Negan was giving his speech about The Ricktatorship Party killing his men, and then killing his men who came to kill them for killing his men. That little speech was perfect. They nailed that part no problem.

No, the issue for me was AMC choosing to do the cheapest cop out I have ever seen in TV history. All season they'd been hinting at Glenn dying. Hell, they even performed a cop out mid-season with 'Glenn' dying in town. But this one really takes the fucking biscuit. Hell, from the promos at the end of the 6x15, it gave the impression that someone was definitely not going to survive the episode. But, no, for some reason AMC decided it be best to just completely fuck the ending up, all in the hope of bringing in more people next season. Do they not realise they could've shown who it was, and they'd still bring the viewers in? TV is going down a horrible road of choosing edgy, shock endings to reel the people back in, and it's really fucking pointless.

I'm really not too sure if I can be bothered with this BS anymore. They had a huge run of episode after episode that were brilliant, and then they go and do this? You done goofed, AMC.
 
While I feel the cliff hanger was a bit silly and not needed, the rest of the episode I really enjoyed. It was pretty tense and Andrew Lincoln was simply spectacular the whole time. That guy can flat out act. He made me feel just as freaked out as he was. While I admit I don't watch many shows on my cable subscription to compare (other than a couple things its a sports box), I was fucking impressed to see such acting on a sunday night cable show. Props.

Yes. I'll give it credit, it really built up to the moment well. Seeing Rick suddenly looking so small at the feet of Negan was great. His entire badass persona was completely broken.
 
One of the things that annoys me most about Carol's sudden change of character is just how unnecessary it is. Like, I get the discussion they're trying to have and where they're trying to take the show, but it didn't need to be Carol at the center of it. They have all of these new Alexandrian characters to work with but instead of building any of them up, they kill them off one after another in increasingly stupid ways while making the old vets seem more and more invincible.

If it were up to me, I think Deanna's son would have been the center of this story. He's from a group that is not well adjusted to the outside world, let alone killing other humans. Rick shows up and tells everyone they have to be able to kill if they want to live. He then witnesses this as his father died due to his mother's mercy, and then his mother dies, in part, due to damage caused by the wolves. He starts to understand and agree with Rick, with Rick and Morgan acting like the devil and angel on his shoulder (with Morgan's argument being based on civility and someday returning to the way things used to be, to raise our children to be compassionate, instead of focusing entirely on just one or two examples of bringing somebody back and ignoring all of the counter examples. This makes it more about law and order and rehabilitation than budhist type forgiveness and it makes him less extreme and more believable and likeable. I think the "anybody can come back" logic is really important for his character, but it can't be all he has to say.). Deanna's son accompanies the group to Neagan's compound and kills people, and given how defenseless they were, he realizes that he's just not cut out for this world and, despite the cost he's seen from letting threats live, he finds he's not capable of killing for the group. So now he decides to run away before he becomes too attached to the new group, instead of leaving your established loved ones, knowing you're putting them in greater danger for it, and thinking that's somehow better for anybody. Rick obviously has to chase him, because he made a dying promise to Deanna that her son was part of the group now and would be treated as such. This is a great chance for him to shine as a leader for both the new and old citizens of Alexandria. Morgan has to follow in suit because of the struggle they've had over this guy's soul. This sets up for an actual resolution after the season 5 finale where Morgan sees Rick kill, which has not yet happened. It introduces a new character and personality that's actually on par with the others for story telling, freeing up Carol to be more vulnerable since she's less immediately crucial to the story. Or Carol could at least just sick around Alexandria as a sentry so it doesn't feel like such a dumb decision everytime they leave it with only Father Gabriel to protect it. Or, hell, maybe they could do something totally different with Carol that involves that guy she was involved with, allowing another Alexandrian to shine. It also wouldn't force an established character to suddenly change after years of progress on a fan favorite. And I do think the conflict she's having is interesting and the themes are important for the show discuss, and I actually like how the Morgan chasing Carol story is finally playing out. But everything that got us here was just so contrived it hurts to watch. Similarly, I can't name any currently living Alexandrians besides Heath (as evidence by me calling him "Deanna's son" in this post and not by name), and that sucks.

See, the problem with the show playing it safe isn't just that it gets stale knowing our favorite characters are invincible (which is part of why the Neagan moment is so crucial), but it also clutters the story up so that nobody new has room to breathe and grow. Rick's group has felt OP despite all of their dumb decisions, and that sucks. I want them to rely on their settlement community and Jesus more, and they should have to. It's all too comfortable feeling.

And look, I'm sure someone will read my idea and point out a bunch of flaws or whatever, but the point is that I came up with that in 10 minutes. On the show, this is their full time job and they don't even seem to understand or respect some of their own characters, or that half of the point of the show is the feeling of vulnerability and that doesn't work when most of your kills are red shirts and nobody new has the chance to grow before being offed. Which is a shame after how well seasons 4 and 5 did with these very tenants. I just have so many nitpicks with Season 6 and feels like most of these issues come from laziness or something, this is just one (large) example. It makes me worry for the future of the show, after I finally really liked where it was.

Edit: Because I typed this during class I'm sure some if it is incoherent, so I just want to clarify that one of my main points is that the main group not dying isn't just bad because it makes them feel invincible, but it's bad because it a) keeps the show from growing in more organic ways with new characters, often forcing dumb decisions or sudden changes in established characters to forward their plot, and b) it honestly just makes the show too cluttered as there are too many characters to give them all proper attention. Case in point, Jesus and Carl disappearing for multiple episodes at a time despite being key characters for the story. This is part of why this Neagan scene is so important and people are upset about it being poorly done.
 

Surfinn

Member
One of the things that annoys me most about Carol's sudden change of character is just how unnecessary it is. Like, I get the discussion they're trying to have and where they're trying to take the show, but it didn't need to be Carol at the center of it. They have all of these new Alexandrian characters to work with but instead of building any of them up, they kill them off one after another in increasingly stupid ways while making the old vets seem more and more invincible.

If it were up to me, I think Deanna's son would have been the center of this story. He's from a group that is not well adjusted to the outside world, let alone killing other humans. Rick shows up and tells everyone they have to be able to kill if they want to live. He then witnesses this as his father died due to his mother's mercy, and then his mother dies, in part, due to damage caused by the wolves. He starts to understand and agree with Rick, with Rick and Morgan acting like the devil and Angel on his shoulder (with Morgan's argument being based on civility and someday returning to the way things used to be, to raise our children to be compassionate, instead of focusing entirely on just one or two examples of bringing somebody back and ignoring all of the counter examples. This makes it more about law and order and rehabilitation than budhist type forgiveness and it makes him less extreme and more believable and likeable. I think the "anybody can come back" logic is really important for his character, but it can't be all he has to say.). Deanna's son accompanies the group to Neagan's compound and kills people, and given how defenseless they were, he realizes that he's just not cut out for this world and, despite the cost he's seen from letting threats live, he finds he's not capable of killing for the group. So now he decides to run away before he becomes too attached to the new group, instead of leaving your established loved ones, knowing you're putting them in greater danger for it, and thinking that's somehow better for anybody. Rick obviously has to chase him, because he made a dying promise to Deanna that her son was part of the group now and would be treated as such. This isnangreat chance for him to shine as a leader for both the new and old citizens of Alexandria. Morgan has to follow in suit because of the struggle they've had over this guy's soul. This sets up for an actual resolution after the season 5 finale where Morgan sees Rick kill, which has not yet happened. It introduces a new character and personality that's actually on par with the others for story tellling, freeing up Carol to be more vulnerable since she's less immediately crucial to the story. Or Carol could at least just sick around Alexandria as a sentry so it doesn't feel like such a dumb decision everytime they leave it with only Father Gabriel to protect it. Or, hell, maybe they could do something totally different with Carol that involves that guy she was involved with, allowing another Alexandrian to shine. It also wouldn't force an established character to suddenly change after years of progress on a fan favorite. And I do think the conflict she's having is interesting and the themes are important for the show discuss, and I actually like how the Morgan chasing Carol story is finally playing out. But everything that got us here was just so contrived it hurts to watch. Similarly, I can't name any currently living Alexandrians besides Heath (as evidence by me calling him "Deanna's son in this post and not by name), and that sucks.

See, the problem with the show playing it safe isn't just that it gets stale knowing our favorite characters are invincible (which is part of why the Neagan moment is so crucial), but it also clutters the story up so that nobody new has room to breathe and grow. Rock's group has felt OP despite all of their dumb decisions, and that sucks. I want them to rely on their settlement community and Jesus more, and they should have to. It's all too comfortable feeling.

And look, I'm sure someone will read my idea and point out a bunch of flaws or whatever, but the point is that I came up with that in 10 minutes, while on the show, this is their full time job and they don't even seem to understand or respect some of their own characters, or that half of the point of the show is the feeling of vulnerability and that doesn't work when most of your kills are red shirts and nobody new has the chance to grow before being offed. Which is a shame after how well seasons 4 and 5 did with these very tenants. I just have so many nitpicks with Season 6 and feels like most of the issues are from laziness or something, this is just one (large) example. It makes me worry for the future of the show, after I finally really liked where it was.

Excellent post, and this summarizes much of what I've been saying on these forums for the last few weeks or so.

So much time wasted on shitty characters from Alexandria. Almost ALL of season 6 has simply been stalling with people we don't care about and cannot relate to.

How many Alexandrians have we grown to like? Aside from Aaron, I can't think of a single person.

So much time wasted on what could have turned out to be fantastic new additions to the cast.

And it is ABSOLUTELY unnecessary to use Carol as the driving point for the moral dilemma they tried to create. So many characters to use and they uproot the one who has spent six seasons developing in the opposite direction? Why?
 

anaron

Member
You know what would've been a ballsy and amazing ending to this season ?
Showing the death on screen, revealing who's the character dying... then Negan picking up another mysterious victim this time, filling both the cliffhanger AND the character death. How do you take on what people expect ? Doing what no one expect.
see, THAT would've justified a cliffhanger.

Am I the only one who wishes Rick would just die already? =[
Nope. I fucking hate him.
 

PopeReal

Member
One of the things that annoys me most about Carol's sudden change of character is just how unnecessary it is. Like, I get the discussion they're trying to have and where they're trying to take the show, but it didn't need to be Carol at the center of it. They have all of these new Alexandrian characters to work with but instead of building any of them up, they kill them off one after another in increasingly stupid ways while making the old vets seem more and more invincible.

If it were up to me, I think Deanna's son would have been the center of this story. He's from a group that is not well adjusted to the outside world, let alone killing other humans. Rick shows up and tells everyone they have to be able to kill if they want to live. He then witnesses this as his father died due to his mother's mercy, and then his mother dies, in part, due to damage caused by the wolves. He starts to understand and agree with Rick, with Rick and Morgan acting like the devil and Angel on his shoulder (with Morgan's argument being based on civility and someday returning to the way things used to be, to raise our children to be compassionate, instead of focusing entirely on just one or two examples of bringing somebody back and ignoring all of the counter examples. This makes it more about law and order and rehabilitation than budhist type forgiveness and it makes him less extreme and more believable and likeable. I think the "anybody can come back" logic is really important for his character, but it can't be all he has to say.). Deanna's son accompanies the group to Neagan's compound and kills people, and given how defenseless they were, he realizes that he's just not cut out for this world and, despite the cost he's seen from letting threats live, he finds he's not capable of killing for the group. So now he decides to run away before he becomes too attached to the new group, instead of leaving your established loved ones, knowing you're putting them in greater danger for it, and thinking that's somehow better for anybody. Rick obviously has to chase him, because he made a dying promise to Deanna that her son was part of the group now and would be treated as such. This isnangreat chance for him to shine as a leader for both the new and old citizens of Alexandria. Morgan has to follow in suit because of the struggle they've had over this guy's soul. This sets up for an actual resolution after the season 5 finale where Morgan sees Rick kill, which has not yet happened. It introduces a new character and personality that's actually on par with the others for story tellling, freeing up Carol to be more vulnerable since she's less immediately crucial to the story. Or Carol could at least just sick around Alexandria as a sentry so it doesn't feel like such a dumb decision everytime they leave it with only Father Gabriel to protect it. Or, hell, maybe they could do something totally different with Carol that involves that guy she was involved with, allowing another Alexandrian to shine. It also wouldn't force an established character to suddenly change after years of progress on a fan favorite. And I do think the conflict she's having is interesting and the themes are important for the show discuss, and I actually like how the Morgan chasing Carol story is finally playing out. But everything that got us here was just so contrived it hurts to watch. Similarly, I can't name any currently living Alexandrians besides Heath (as evidence by me calling him "Deanna's son in this post and not by name), and that sucks.

See, the problem with the show playing it safe isn't just that it gets stale knowing our favorite characters are invincible (which is part of why the Neagan moment is so crucial), but it also clutters the story up so that nobody new has room to breathe and grow. Rock's group has felt OP despite all of their dumb decisions, and that sucks. I want them to rely on their settlement community and Jesus more, and they should have to. It's all too comfortable feeling.

And look, I'm sure someone will read my idea and point out a bunch of flaws or whatever, but the point is that I came up with that in 10 minutes, while on the show, this is their full time job and they don't even seem to understand or respect some of their own characters, or that half of the point of the show is the feeling of vulnerability and that doesn't work when most of your kills are red shirts and nobody new has the chance to grow before being offed. Which is a shame after how well seasons 4 and 5 did with these very tenants. I just have so many nitpicks with Season 6 and feels like most of the issues are from laziness or something, this is just one (large) example. It makes me worry for the future of the show, after I finally really liked where it was.

Edit: Because I typed this during class I'm sure some if it is incoherent, so I just want to clarify that one of my main points is that the main group not dying isn't just bad because it makes them feel invincible, but it's bad because it a) keeps the show from growing in more organic ways with new characters, often forcing dumb decisions or sudden changes in established characters to forward their plot, and b) it honestly just makes the show too cluttered as there are too many characters to give them all proper attention. Case in point, Jesus and Carl disappearing for multiple episodes at a time despite being key characters for the story. This is part of why this Meagan scene is so important and people are upset about it being poorly done.

I agree about Carol. Hopefully she becomes cool again.
 

near

Gold Member
Of course you are, but are you honestly telling me that killing one of the original characters from Atlanta or the farm has the same impact as killing literally ANYONE ELSE on the show? That's what I was referencing.

Out of curiosity.. have you read the issue from the comic (the one that was represented in the finale)? Because I find it hard to believe you cannot understand how the moment was totally ruined by not having the same level of impact. That was the entire point of introducing Negan, not for him to strut around and look cool. It was all tied into one package with the main purpose of emotionally sucker-punching the main characters and the audience through the brutality of his actions.

Oh I see, think there has been some confusion, I understand where you're coming from on that subject and do not disagree with you there.

I actually don't read the comics, which is why I can understand why there would be disappointment with the cliffhanger, as this would be handled differently in the source material. But I do not understand how anyone can dislike an entire episode that was well executed because of the ending alone, but I guess they go hand in hand to some degree.
 

border

Member
I'm with Sepinwall -- I don't think the rest of the episode is all that great either.

The road blockades were an interesting idea, but I don't think they escalated in a really interesting way, and they escalated way too slowly. Half the episode is them pulling up to a blockade and then putting the RV into reverse. The other half of the episode is boring Carol/Morgan nonsense that also felt needlessly stretched and teased out.

As a sidenote, would any RV have a chance in hell at turning around on those narrow country roads?
 

Baron Aloha

A Shining Example
Just watched it again, and if they follow the POV then it 100% eliminates Daryl as a candidate for Lucille. The final van POV clearly shows the top of his head in the shot. Also the POV person is seated dead center in the van.

That leaves Michonne, Glenn, and Rosita.

In the next shot we see that Michonne is behind Daryl but sitting against the passenger side wall. That eliminates her since it doesn't line up with the POV.

It's not 100% clear, but it seems like Rosita was sitting across from Michonne. You can't eliminate her because she was getting up out of the van when they showed her but her posture tends to lean toward her sitting on the driver side. At the same time they never give you any clue as to where Glenn was sitting other than the fact that since he was the last one out he was probably the furthest in the back. He could have easily been seated directly in the center between the two sides but we never see it.

So really, it can only be Rosita or Glenn (but like I said I have doubts about it being Rosita) and since "taking it like a champ" isn't really something you'd say to a lady I'm going to go with it being Glenn. Final answer.

Which makes the decision to end it on a cliffhanger even more questionable...IMO since everyone is expecting him already and those who don't read the comic will definitely be spoiled over the next few weeks.
 

iPaul93

Member
I'm with Sepinwall -- I don't think the rest of the episode is all that great either.

The road blockades were an interesting idea, but I don't think they escalated in a really interesting way, and they escalated way too slowly. Half the episode is them pulling up to a blockade and then putting the RV into reverse. The other half of the episode is boring Carol/Morgan nonsense that also felt needlessly stretched and teased out.

As a sidenote, would any RV have a chance in hell at turning around on those narrow country roads?

Agreed

Just watched it again, and if they follow the POV then it 100% eliminates Daryl as a candidate for Lucille. The final van POV clearly shows the top of his head in the shot. Also the POV person is seated dead center in the van.

That leaves Michonne, Glenn, and Rosita.

In the next shot we see that Michonne is behind Daryl but sitting against the passenger side wall. That eliminates her since it doesn't line up with the POV.

It's not 100% clear, but it seems like Rosita was sitting across from Michonne. You can't eliminate her because she was getting up out of the van when they showed her but her posture tends to lean toward her sitting on the driver side. At the same time they never give you any clue as to where Glenn was sitting other than the fact that since he was the last one out he was probably the furthest in the back. He could have easily been seated directly in the center between the two sides but we never see it.

So really, it can only be Rosita or Glenn (but like I said I have doubts about it being Rosita) and since "taking it like a champ" isn't really something you'd say to a lady I'm going to go with it being Glenn. Final answer.

Which makes the decision to end it on a cliffhanger even more questionable...IMO since everyone is expecting him already and those who don't read the comic will definitely be spoiled over the next few weeks.
I'm 99% it's not Glenn,although I want him to be.
 

border

Member
No offense to Rosita, but I don't think she would be able to get back up again after taking the first whack to the head.

At the same time, I think she seems the most likely person for the writers to kill -- someone whose death will have a profound effect on the group, but not one of the Atlanta group that fans consider untouchable. Not to mention that beating a defenseless woman to death helps cement Neegan's villainy in a way that you can't accomplish by having him kill of some B-tier or C-tier male cast member.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oh I see, think there has been some confusion, I understand where you're coming from on that subject and do not disagree with you there.

I actually don't read the comics, which is why I can understand why there would be disappointment with the cliffhanger, as this would be handled differently in the source material. But I do not understand how anyone can dislike an entire episode that was well executed because of the ending alone, but I guess they go hand in hand to some degree.

No worries. I didn't think the whole episode was bad; I actually thought most of it was very good, one of the best they've ever done in many respects. It's just the ending really subdues so much of the dread/tension/thrill built carefully over the course of the 90 minutes. Everything was set up so well from the increasing fear/uncertainty from a position of perceived control/power all the way into Negan's reveal. It's so hard not to judge the episode entirely based on its end, because as you've already said, its entirety and finale scene are intertwined. EVERYTHING leads up to that moment; almost all of this season shifted pieces around in order to bring us to Negan and his decision to beat the group into submission (quite literally).

I'm with Sepinwall -- I don't think the rest of the episode is all that great either.

The road blockades were an interesting idea, but I don't think they escalated in a really interesting way, and they escalated way too slowly. Half the episode is them pulling up to a blockade and then putting the RV into reverse. The other half of the episode is boring Carol/Morgan nonsense that also felt needlessly stretched and teased out.

As a sidenote, would any RV have a chance in hell at turning around on those narrow country roads?

I actually loved the slow build and everyone's reaction in the RV (Rick's in particular). Seeing Rick/co. slowlyyyyy forced into a corner was absolutely thrilling to watch. The Carol/Morgan shit was atrocious though, although his decision to kill the guy in order to save her was a pretty cool moment.

The Abraham/Eugene scene was absolutely fantastic and one of the best scenes they've ever shot.
That needs more love.
 
You don't think a man shooting a woman in the leg and arm in an attempt to make her suffer until death has a different emotional impact than if it were a man, in terms of television violence? You don't think people are more sensitive to violence against women in this context (especially when she's cowering and essentially begging to be killed). I'll have to watch it again, but I remember her trying to get the guy to finish the job instead of leaving her there to die. Yes, yes, she's been through a tremendous amount but her sudden switch from level headed veteran survivor to "I can't be around people I care about anymore and there's no reason to go on so I'll cower in the corner alone for someone to come along and kill me" is complete bullshit and totally forced. Seeing her transform into a S1/2 state and backtrack on literally ALL of her character development prior to this felt completely out of left field. They ruined her character by changing her philosophy with no driving force to get her there.

No I don't, when the woman is cold-stone killer Carol. But more generally, to shy away from shooting a woman would be giving into sexist tropes that women are fragile and need to be protected. Is it more powerful, yes but for those same sexist reasons.

As far as Carol's character change, I've agreed that the last few episodes of her having a breakdown haven't been told well by the writers. But I thought this episode had some nice moments, even if she had to spell out her thought process to Morgan because I guess the writers thought we were too stupid to figure it out ourselves. Regardless of how her character transition has been handled or if it should have been done at all, Carol's actor sold me in this episode.
 
Excellent post, and this summarizes much of what I've been saying on these forums for the last few weeks or so.

So much time wasted on shitty characters from Alexandria. Almost ALL of season 6 has simply been stalling with people we don't care about and cannot relate to.

How many Alexandrians have we grown to like? Aside from Aaron, I can't think of a single person.

So much time wasted on what could have turned out to be fantastic new additions to the cast.

And it is ABSOLUTELY unnecessary to use Carol as the driving point for the moral dilemma they tried to create. So many characters to use and they uproot the one who has spent six seasons developing in the opposite direction? Why?

I personally liked Deanna and Denise as well, but they basically built them up just to kill them as soon as they got interesting. I really wish they'd let at least one become a staple for the cast. They can replace Rosita or something, I don't really think anyone would be sad to see her go.

And, just thinking about it on the bus ride home, my head flooded with ideas for what could have been done with Deanna's son in this situation instead of Carol. He would be the defacto leader of the Alexandrians when his mom died, a sort of represenative for them to Rick. He has the burden of the legacy of Alexandria's founders on his shoulders, and that's a lot to live up to in a world that doesn't seem to archive anything anymore. His actions alone have to pass down what his parents represented. There could even be theming there as people come back to life in this new world, but their legacy dies more quickly than ever as ideals have to be pushed aside in desperation. There's foundation there for a lot to be discussed and the character is in a unique position. It's a shame they'd prefer to use (and ruin) Carol just because she's familiar. There's potential in these other characters.
 

Kickz

Member
If it's still Glenn after this cliffhanger bullshit then they can fuck off.

No offense to Glenn, but I'd rather him than Michonne or Abe/Eugene

Imagine if its Maggie... Negan would go down as the greatest villain in television history.. The hate for him would be so strong...
 

Surfinn

Member
No I don't, when the woman is cold-stone killer Carol. But more generally, to shy away from shooting a woman would be giving into sexist tropes that women are fragile and need to be protected. Is it more powerful, yes but for those same sexist reasons.

As far as Carol's character change, I've agreed that the last few episodes of her having a breakdown haven't been told well by the writers. But I thought this episode had some nice moments, even if she had to spell out her thought process to Morgan because I guess the writers thought we were too stupid to figure it out ourselves. Regardless of how her character transition has been handled or if it should have been done at all, Carol's actor sold me in this episode.

On the contrary, I think the reason why I hated that scene is because she was the fragile woman that needed saving from a man who was going to kill her.. by another man intervening.

I hate this "I'm too fragile and weak to go on so I'll just lay down and die" bullshit they created in the finale with Carol. Yeah, she's had issues but in no way shape or form has she been incapable of taking care of herself. She just looked like the typical weak woman (who needs saving) overcome by fears/weaknesses/fragility she spent six seasons overcoming to simply end up right back where she started. That infuriates me more than the cliffhanger, honestly.

And I think the way it was shot was tasteless because it helped reinforce this stereotype and used an unusual amount of violence to drive that point home.

I mean.. you wanna talk about usual sexist tropes? This is it. Carol loses her mind and can't cope so she makes a totally out of character and moronic decision to leave everyone and everything, in turn causing everyone to come out and "rescue" her. She single handedly initiated everyone leaving in separate directions and getting caught by the saviors.
 

DavidDesu

Member
God damn. There's cliffhangers and then there's THAT ending. That's brutal. Bad enough if the next episode was in a weeks time. October... Fuuuuuck
 

Kickz

Member
They should've built that RV into a tank;

-Turrets mounted on sides and roof
-Way to fill gas tank without leaving said vehicle
-Tires covered up/reinforced
-reserve gasoline tanks
-front bumper with spikes/barricade smashing shovel
 
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