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[RadioHeadAche]

Yeah, I'm expecting Carol's end this season. That brief romance scene with that guy last episode...hmm.

This is speculation based on the end of the governor arc in the comic, but

Spoiler

does anyone else think that Maggie could go out like comic Laurie if she doesn't die beforehand?

 

[Deleted member 18827]

TV Carol is the best

 

[The Artisan]

QUESTION

Spoiler

someone who read the comics please tell me, did this many saviors get killed by Rick & co in the prelude to Negan? If so, it's shocking that he would Lucille and kill only one of them as an introduction.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

That's a comic book spoiler:

QUESTION

Spoiler

someone who read the comics please tell me, did this many saviors get killed by Rick & co in the prelude to Negan? If so, it's shocking that he would Lucille and kill only one of them as an introduction.

Comic book spoiler:

Spoiler

No. 7 Saviors died in two different instances before Negan intervened. So if Negan only kills one in response to Rick's massacre then he's a saint and the epitome of restraint when compared with Rick.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

QUESTION

Spoiler

someone who read the comics please tell me, did this many saviors get killed by Rick & co in the prelude to Negan? If so, it's shocking that he would Lucille and kill only one of them as an introduction.

Comic Spoilers:

Spoiler

It's been awhile since I read the lead up to Issue 100, but I don't remember Rick & CO being this brutal to The Saviors right away. They did kill a couple of them, and left one alive to give a message, but I have to say that the TV group has it coming more than the comic group did.

It's hard to even justify what Rick's group is doing right now. They really don't know anything about this group, aside from their strongarm tactics. In the comic, it came off like some kids who threw rocks at a hornet's nest and got way more than they bargained for. The show is like some kids playing football with a hornet's nest. I'm super curious what the response will be.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I've seen some people elsewhere suggest that Rick's group aren't bad guys because The Saviors attacked them first, but:

Rick’s group made the deal with Hilltop to kill Negan and his men to ensure they had enough food to survive. The “they’ll come for us anyway” was the icing on the cake so they could sell it to the rest of Alexandria. But make no mistake: Their original reason for going on a killing spree was to make sure they could eat (which is exactly what The Saviors do), not any other noble reason.

But I'm glad that woman made the point that they didn't stop after killing the first lot of Saviors.

Comic Spoilers:

Spoiler

It's been awhile since I read the lead up to Issue 100, but I don't remember Rick & CO being this brutal to The Saviors right away. They did kill a couple of them, and left one alive to give a message, but I have to say that TV group has it coming more than the comic group did.

Comic Spoilers:

Spoiler

There were more. After they killed 3 Dwight and company tracked them back and lost a few more as a result.

 

[raindoc]

I hope that TV Rick is a comic book villain at some point. He's the William Tecumseh Sherman of the Zombie apocalypse and Carol is his Batwoman.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Rick's group is definitely walking the line but lets not act like the saviours aren't assholes. They almost killed members of ricks group and are holding an entire colony hostage for no reason at all other than to take all their shit. Rick is absolutely right when he says that eventually they'll come for alexandria and then they'll do the same thing + know where they are. Pre-emptive attack was the absolute best decision and I don't see it as a grey area when the group you're doing it to are the scummiest of scumbags.

Say what you will about the lines ricks group have crossed but they wouldn't ambush total strangers on the road take all their shit and then kill them. I could see them doing the first part but not the second. They wouldn't hold a town hostage and make them do fucked up shit like kill eachother to appease the rick god.

It's actually pretty surprising that rick's group is as brutal as they are yet retain some level of humanity. Every other brutal group they've encountered have next to none or none at all.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Rick's group is definitely walking the line but lets not act like the saviours aren't assholes. They almost killed members of ricks group and are holding an entire colony hostage for no reason at all other than to take all their shit. Rick is absolutely right when he says that eventually they'll come for alexandria and then they'll do the same thing + know where they are. Pre-emptive attack was the absolute best decision and I don't see it as a grey area when the group you're doing it to are the scummiest of scumbags.

Say what you will about the lines ricks group have crossed but they wouldn't ambush total strangers on the road take all their shit and then kill them. I could see them doing the first part but not the second. They wouldn't hold a town hostage and make them do fucked up shit like kill eachother to appease the rick god.

It's actually pretty surprising that rick's group is as brutal as they are yet retain some level of humanity. Every other brutal group they've encountered have next to none or none at all.

As I mentioned going after the Saviors first because they would've come for them anyway was not their initial reason for doing what they're doing. That was said to sell it to the Alexandrians. As for their humanity: If not for Morgan (who influenced Carol, who then influenced Maggie) then it would've likely slid all the way into oblivion.

Let's also not forget the insinuation that Rick's group were willing to take the food from Hilltop if they couldn't come to an agreement. This is also similar to what Rick said about Alexandria. In both cases the situation was prevented from deteriorating by others and not Rick himself.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

As I mentioned going after the Saviors first because they would've come for them anyway was not their initial reason for doing what they're doing. That was said to sell it to the Alexandrians. As for their humanity: If not for Morgan (who influenced Carol, who then influenced Maggie) then it would've likely slid all the way into oblivion.

Let's also not forget the insinuation that Rick's group were willing to take the food from Hilltop if they couldn't come to an agreement. This is also similar to what Rick said about Alexandria. In both cases the situation was prevented from deteriorating by others and not Rick himself.

but that deal wouldn't even exist if the saviours weren't savagely holding the hilltop hostage. They wouldn't even know of the saviours if they were just some normal group so it's hard to separate the two.

 

[SteveWD40]

The sheer numbers of Survivors seems off the charts, well organised, well armed and with big numbers.

Surprised they haven't rolled over Alexandria already.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

but that deal wouldn't even exist if the saviours weren't savagely holding the hilltop hostage. They wouldn't even know of the saviours if they were just some normal group so it's hard to separate the two.

No, it wouldn't exist. Instead they'd have taken the food by force.

The existence of The Saviors means their behaviour is justified to the audience watching (if not to the characters themselves). But they're not that far behind the bad guys IMHO.

The sheer numbers of Survivors seems off the charts, well organised, well armed and with big numbers.

Surprised they haven't rolled over Alexandria already.

Well they don't know where it is yet. However, they radioed ahead and those people could've made others aware of what happened to the outpost, which in turns kicks up an entire hornet's nest.

I also wouldn't put it past Rick to underestimate The Saviors yet again.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

No, it wouldn't exist. Instead they'd have taken the food by force.

The existence of The Saviors means their behaviour is justified to the audience watching (if not to the characters themselves). But they're not that far behind the bad guys IMHO.

that's speculation. I personally don't think they would have taken it by force. They were just flexing nuts in town when they were acting like they could.

 

[timetokill]

I definitely think Carol is next up to die of the major characters. She got a love interest suddenly (and it's not Daryl... ), tons of screen time to herself, a big moral conflict and thanks to Morgan her badass armor is gone. There are just way too many signs.

Comic spoilers:

Spoiler

I think she's due for a date with Lucille. Considering how much they've ramped up the shit Rick and Co. are doing leading up to it, I'm expecting BOTH Carol and Glenn to bite it.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

that's speculation. I personally don't think they would have taken it by force. They were just flexing nuts in town.

Rick has insinuated that exact thing on two occasions (in Hilltop and in Alexandria when he said they'd take it for themselves if they needed to).

And now they've killed upwards of 30 people, just so they can eat. I don't doubt for a second that they would've taken Alexandria by force and then taken Hilltop's resources by force.

Incidentally, Morgan's idea of talking to them was based off the assertion by Rick that they could absolutely kill Negan and The Saviors. So a supposedly superior force warning a supposedly inferior force to back down, but yet Rick was willing to kill them all anyway.

What's the quotation from Friedrich Nietzsche again?

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

I suspect Morgan's influence has made the likes of Carol and Maggie realise that's where they may be headed. And Maggie being a new mother (and Carol being a mother to the group) doesn't want that. But they'll still kill if necessary, just not as the first response to hostility.

 

[Mangoverboard]

Do you want them to starve to death?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Do you want them to starve to death?

Do you want The Saviors to starve to death, because terrorising others is how they feed themselves.

Morgan's idea of talking to them was based on Rick's assertion that they (as in his force) could defeat The Saviors. But instead of giving a supposedly inferior force a chance Rick went down the "kill them all" route.

There absolutely is a reason why they had a close up of Tara after that. It was to reinforce how similiar Rick is becoming to the governor and the people he's gone up against. If you can't see that then you're missing out on the subtleties of the show.

 

[Solo]

I'm seeing a lot of people posting that the latter seasons are the best or that the show has kept getting better. Are you guys for real? My girlfriend and I watched the first 4 seasons on DVD and now S5 and S6 live, and while I appreciate that being able to binge watch likely made the earlier seasons more palatable, S5 was an absolute fucking slog to get through, as was the first half of this season, to the point where it all but killed my interest in the show. The second half of this season has been much better so far, I will say that, as it feels like for the first time in ages the show is actually headed somewhere.

But it feels still like there's no real stakes anymore, certain characters have so much plot armor its ridiculous, the walkers have been neutered (also, I seem to recall a time when their blood could infect you if you even got it in your mouth......now characters just bathe in that shit) and put in the rear view as the conflict almost always arises from annual, predictable threats from a new group. They discovered the farm house. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered the prison. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered Woodbury. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered the Terminus. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered Alexandria. Things were good for a while then it went tits up.

Also, I feel like the budget of show has to have yo-yoed a lot during the run of it. Sometimes theres lots of location shooting, zombies and elaborate sets, and sometimes entire episodes seem to take place in nondescript rooms.

I'd almost be inclined to say that each season has gotten worse. I keep watching because my girlfriend loves it so much, but I have found it an infuriating show to watch since S4.

 

[SteveWD40]

But it feels still like there's no real stakes anymore, certain characters have so much plot armor its ridiculous, the walkers have been neutered.

The walkers are as dangerous as the script demands, 5-10 can tear people apart in seconds (Noah) but Rick / Tyrese can wade into 100's and come out alive.

You could argue it depends on the aggression of the person, it seems trying to run is what gets you killed / grabbed and eaten, attacking should be the best course. Glenn and co had tackled bigger groups than the one that got to Noah for example.

 

[Exploratory]

The people in this thread (and outside of it) who thought this episode was boring or filler pretty much.

 

[Diablos]

The show has its problems but I think it's pretty good right now. Seasons 3-4 in my opinion were a LOT worse; a low point for the most part.

I'm reading all of these comic spoilers but who even knows if things will go a certain way just based on comic book logic? The writers could have something else planned.

By the way I'm assuming

Spoiler

the guy Rick iced at the end was definitely NOT Negan, right?

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

I'm seeing a lot of people posting that the latter seasons are the best or that the show has kept getting better. Are you guys for real? My girlfriend and I watched the first 4 seasons on DVD and now S5 and S6 live, and while I appreciate that being able to binge watch likely made the earlier seasons more palatable, S5 was an absolute fucking slog to get through, as was the first half of this season, to the point where it all but killed my interest in the show. The second half of this season has been much better so far, I will say that, as it feels like for the first time in ages the show is actually headed somewhere.

But it feels still like there's no real stakes anymore, certain characters have so much plot armor its ridiculous, the walkers have been neutered (also, I seem to recall a time when their blood could infect you if you even got it in your mouth......now characters just bathe in that shit) and put in the rear view as the conflict almost always arises from annual, predictable threats from a new group. They discovered the farm house. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered the prison. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered Woodbury. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered the Terminus. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered Alexandria. Things were good for a while then it went tits up.

Also, I feel like the budget of show has to have yo-yoed a lot during the run of it. Sometimes theres lots of location shooting, zombies and elaborate sets, and sometimes entire episodes seem to take place in nondescript rooms.

I'd almost be inclined to say that each season has gotten worse. I keep watching because my girlfriend loves it so much, but I have found it an infuriating show to watch since S4.

Walkers should be neutered, they have gotten used to them. I think s6 is looking to be the best. I don't know how people rate 2 as the best or one of the best. 75% of the episodes were all pure farm simulator bullshit. If there wasn't any Shane aspect, that might have been one of the worst seasons that I ever watched in any show.

 

[Exploratory]

I've seen some people elsewhere suggest that Rick's group aren't bad guys because The Saviors attacked them first, but:

Rick’s group made the deal with Hilltop to kill Negan and his men to ensure they had enough food to survive. The “they’ll come for us anyway” was the icing on the cake so they could sell it to the rest of Alexandria. But make no mistake: Their original reason for going on a killing spree was to make sure they could eat (which is exactly what The Saviors do), not any other noble reason.

But I'm glad that woman made the point that they didn't stop after killing the first lot of Saviors.

Uh nah. I know it's all about the moral struggle right now but I don't buy it. They attacked Rick's group and their savage as fuck. It's obvious they're oppressing the hilltop and will eventually kill them too. Ricks group is just taking the fight to them before they do. It's complete self defense.

If someone attacks you in this situation they aren't just going to leave you alone. It'd be totally different if Ricks group just heard of these people and decided to just murder them but that's not the case at all.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Uh nah. I know it's all about the moral struggle right now but I don't buy it. They attacked Rick's group and their savage as fuck. It's obvious they're oppressing the hilltop and will eventually kill them too. Ricks group is just taking the fight to them before they do. It's complete self defense.

If someone attacks you in this situation they aren't just going to leave you alone. It'd be totally different if Ricks group just heard of these people and decided to just murder them but that's not the case at all.

It is quite astonishing how people are missing out on the themes going on in this season.

It was even brought up in this episode with Carol facing off against a similar woman to herself (a mother who even lost her children and had to kill a domineering and weak man - her boss). Only that woman had stopped caring about how many people she killed, something which clearly bothers Carol (look at her face after Rick shoots the guy at the end, she even tightly grasps the rosary until her hand bleeds).

It is pretty much the main reason why Morgan is there in the first place. He's the first person Rick met post-Zombie outbreak and back then he had a son (like Rick), before he lost him (Rick lost Lori), went mad through grief and isolation (like Rick... in a way), then had a complete psychotic break (time will tell if this happens to Rick) before being rescued and saved by another who knew the pointlessness of revenge and murder.

Morgan can see that happening to Rick and the others. All he wanted to do was to get Rick to offer the saviors a chance to surrender before killing them all. But even that seems too much for the gungho fans of the show, and as a result we get "morgan is so stupid" responses.

So he knows the path they're all going down and wants to help them avoid it. Now were his actions irresponsible in some way? Sure. But the guy is still learning and doesn't fully know how to balance his desire for peace with the need for a greater good of group survival.

However there could be a balance between Rick and Morgan's differing approaches.

 

[neoism]

Yea, I thought this was completely out of character. She's changing too drastically.

not really her being pregnant a women will do anything to protect her child.. not born yet or not...

 

[Booker.DeWitt]

I stopped reading the comics when the group reached alexandria. Can somebody explain what is this " we are all Negan" mean? thanks

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I stopped reading the comics when the group reached alexandria. Can somebody explain what is this " we are all Negan" mean? thanks

They all embody Negan and represent him.

 

[Booker.DeWitt]

They all embody Negan and represent him.

what BS is that? really? I thought it mean something else. that sounds like religious thing. is that how he is? maniac, religious guy?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

what BS is that? really? I thought it mean something else. that sounds like religious thing. is that how he is? maniac, religious guy?

We all know a man called Negan is coming so "Negan" is not going to be some cooperative kind of deal. As for the religious overtones: His group is called The Saviors.

Any other details get put in comic book spoiler tags.

 

[Bigfoot]

what BS is that? really? I thought it mean something else. that sounds like religious thing. is that how he is? maniac, religious guy?

We don't know yet

 

[Booker.DeWitt]

We don't know yet

comic book people should know.

I am excited for Negan, I love Dean's and Sam's father

 

[Sendero]

Some thoughts:

*The initial scene (when Daryl tackles the guy) was pretty bad staged.
Hadn't notice before that Father Gab had already joined them at that point.

*That "honey, you are not the good ones." moment.

* That "We are Negan" was sure convenient. With Carol's little roast, they still have no way to know if the Saviors are done or not. Although with all the info they have now, it's really easy to deduct that there are more of them (group "T", antenna compound being small, the radio chat showing how well organized they were, etc).

*When the female leader said: "he only kept my bed warm at nights" or something, I though the show was about to tie it to that little Carol-Tobin moment. Wonder if there is more to that.

*The rosary saved her. And in the last scene, she was holding it so tight during the execution, that she started bleeding. That reference was nice, since it can be read as "it" being a symbolism for her current belief system (surviving at any cost) making her bleed/suffer, or her starting to adhere to a new one (faith).

*Maggie is probably also done with that (killing) life. I thought that she would lose her baby, but guess she will just take a step back and focus on her pregnancy.


So, what's next? Are they heading back to Hilltop?

 

[Future PhaZe]

I think it was the right move but killing everyone was dumb. They clearly needed to interrogate people to find out how many were left, how they contact each other, bases, hierarchy, etc. Otherwise they are still vulnerable to a counter attack.

 

[Dunedain_Ranger]

Rick untouchable attitude right now is just pure arrogance . At this point I question if he's worse then the governor and Shane ?

 

[More_Badass]

I think it was the right move but killing everyone was dumb. They clearly needed to interrogate people to find out how many were left, how they contact each other, bases, hierarchy, etc. Otherwise they are still vulnerable to a counter attack.

Considering that guy Primo was willing to pull an "I am Spartacus" on Rick, I don't think interrogating these people would net them much or any info

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

I think it was the right move but killing everyone was dumb. They clearly needed to interrogate people to find out how many were left, how they contact each other, bases, hierarchy, etc. Otherwise they are still vulnerable to a counter attack.

That was my only issue. It seemed like a plot device to kill him and frankly stupid as hell. They should have interrogated him.

 

[Dunedain_Ranger]

I think it was the right move but killing everyone was dumb. They clearly needed to interrogate people to find out how many were left, how they contact each other, bases, hierarchy, etc. Otherwise they are still vulnerable to a counter attack.

I'm not sure there was no need to in their eyes. Hilltop gave them what they thought was solid info. The location the structure and that they've seen negan before in it . I don't think they needed to question anyone other then hey guys what does negan look like ?

 

[jett]

These women are too hardcore.

 

[Zaph]

Another damn good episode.

Was torn on Carol - on one hand it's great they're adding dimension to the character in a is-she/isn't-she faking it kind of way, but on the other hand Cold Blooded Carol is great as is. The Killing Floor scene was so good.

As for the Saviors, I wonder if Maggie or Carol will tell the group how prepared and organised the radio communication was when calling for back-up? It could imply they're part of a larger group (comic comparison/question)

Spoiler

Any comic readers remember if the Saviors were that militaristic in the book? I always thought their strength came from their numbers and fear of disobeying Negan, and were otherwise very brutish.

 

[SteveWD40]

Another damn good episode.

Was torn on Carol - on one hand it's great they're adding dimension to the character in a is-she/isn't-she faking it kind of way, but on the other hand Cold Blooded Carol is great as is. The Killing Floor scene was so good.

As for the Saviors, I wonder if Maggie or Carol will tell the group how prepared and organised the radio communication was when calling for back-up? It could imply they're part of a larger group (comic comparison/question)

Spoiler

Any comic readers remember if the Saviors were that militaristic in the book? I always thought their strength came from their numbers and fear of disobeying Negan, and were otherwise very brutish.

Spoiler

Jesus made mincemeat out of a bunch of them, saying they "sucked", they were not as organised

 

[zer0das]

I'm gonna assume Maggie miscarries because she got knifed in the stomach, and she also got kicked I think. If not... well, everyone is pretty much unkillable if they're core group members at this point.

 

[Host Samurai]

I wonder if current Rick would get along with Shane now if he were still alive

 

[Don Draper's Hat]

I'm gonna assume Maggie miscarries because she got knifed in the stomach, and she also got kicked I think. If not... well, everyone is pretty much unkillable if they're core group members at this point.

Her T-shirt got knifed. She was never touched.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Considering that guy Primo was willing to pull an "I am Spartacus" on Rick, I don't think interrogating these people would net them much or any info

None of them seemed like they had the stones to handle any kind of torture.

There was way too much on the line not to be completely sure with the whole thing. They've now justified any kind of retribution that comes back at them.

 

[zer0das]

I'm calling shenanigans if it was just her shirt, look at me dramatically pause and look at my mid section while some maniac is trying to stab me because my plot armor is that thick. The sound was more like hitting flesh than just cloth to my ears too. Eh, anyways, she was still probably took a knee in the stomach although that was off screen so it may have landed lower.

Also for supposedly killing 20+ people, the red head sure was amateur hour with her aim. She missed 3 shots within about 30 feet with the element of surprise. Must have killed most of them with melee weapons or something.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I'm not sure there was no need to in their eyes. Hilltop gave them what they thought was solid info. The location the structure and that they've seen negan before in it . I don't think they needed to question anyone other then hey guys what does negan look like ?

Who they thought was Negan. But that doesn't mean much when they're all Negan.

 

[-griffy-]

I'm calling shenanigans if it was just her shirt, look at me dramatically pause and look at my mid section while some maniac is trying to stab me because my plot armor is that thick. The sound was more like hitting flesh than just cloth to my ears too. Eh, anyways, she was still probably kicked in the stomach although that was off screen so it may have been the knee or something.

If she actually got cut they would have shown blood and Maggie would have acted hurt. They paused because everyone, including the knife wielder, was kind of in disbelief that she would slice at the stomach. Then Carol was like fuck that shit, you go after the baby you get got.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

I wonder if current Rick would get along with Shane now if he were still alive

With his wife gone? They would be best friends.

 

[Future PhaZe]

I wonder if current Rick would get along with Shane now if he were still alive

Shane would have been far beyond Governor tier if he was still alive. In S2 he was basically current Rick that would sacrifice his allies to save himself.

 

[Sendero]

Was torn on Carol - on one hand it's great they're adding dimension to the character in a is-she/isn't-she faking it kind of way, but on the other hand Cold Blooded Carol is great as is. The Killing Floor scene was so good.

Carol has consistently being among my favorite characters, but I think there is not that much development room for her left.

More importantly, she should die because the group is pretty powerful as it is. It feels that any confrontation with a human enemy, can be eventually be turned around thanks to her. The whole weakling act/predator is just that good.

A reason of why the last chapters have been entertaining; there is the perception that people are going to start dying any moment. I want more of that. A lot more.


*Regarding the murdered guy: I agree, it was pretty damn stupid not to at least interrogate him. He was saying something like "..there is so much to talk, so let's ta.." when Rick pulled the trigger. It's very hard to believe that between all of them, they couldn't have made him give away more info (even if unintentionally). If they so feared an ambush, they could have changed places and put scouts in the perimeter. Now, they have nothing.