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[CyclopsRock]

Class war: the thread.

People have the right to work for a living wage just as much as they have the right to vote.

But... how can it be a "right"? I mean, a "right" isn't something you're allowed to do - it's something that no one can stop you from doing; The right to free speech, free association, the right to vote etc. How can something like a living wage be a "right" - what if no one wants to employ you for that much money?

 

[heliosRAzi]

Huffington Post: borderline banned site

Their study appears to be here.

WalMart Study:

woosh

 

[King Cobra]

Ah yes, more bs rhetoric from anecdotal evidence that is used to make a blanket statement on everyone that is using some type of government assistance.

You might as well call out college students using Pell grants while you're at it. Afterall, they shouldn't be getting any type of financial aid and instead use the bootstrap method of having two jobs to pay for their tuition.

This guy is a perfect example of what I mean, even when presented with situations where hard work and perseverance pays off, nah seems to hard for me, I want it easy.

So how hard do you have to work to get ahead in life?

You have to be relentless, to quote a saying, I have found out that the harder I worked the luckier I became.

your post combined with your avatar lol

What is funny about that?

 

[captmorgan]

Has there been a study on other increases in expenses when the wage is increased? For example rent.

When Ft Murray boomed from the oil sands and wages sky rocketed so did rent. It basically went from 300-400 dollars for an apartment to 1000 dollars to sleep on someones couch.

If I was a landlord and min wage went up I would increase my rent accordingly.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

This guy is a perfect example of what I mean, even when presented with situations where hard work and perseverance pays off, nah seems to hard for me, I want it easy.


You have to be relentless, to quote a saying, I have found out that the harder I worked the luckier I became.

I never had it easy. I grew up in Miami in the 80s during Reagan's War on Drugs. I'm a nurse practitioner making close to six figures and yet I can still look back on my life and admit that I got lucky in certain situations while others didn't.

You on the other hand, like a previous poster stated, are the worst fucking people.

 

[Seeds]

You have to be relentless, to quote a saying, I have found out that the harder I worked the luckier I became.

Now, if everyone is relentless, unless there are infinite top working positions, that means that some people working relentlessly won't get ahead in life, right?

 

[NaughtyCalibur]

If I'm a McDonald's franchisee and I pay minimum wage, I'm employing people who tend to be white, under 25, and do not rely on the income to live. Why should I have to pay some middle class white kid $10 an hour? All raising the minimum wage will do is make it harder for young people to get employed and gain experience so they do not continue to make a minimum wage throughout their life. It's another transfer of wealth from the young to the old.

What the hell? Lol

 

[CyclopsRock]

It's pretty amazing how many people feel comfortable simultaneously taking the moral high-ground whilst personally insulting people.

 

[Kajigger]

Fuck that. All $10 an hour is going to do is get rid of my dollar menu. People on minimum wage typically aren't working full-time anyway.

 

[ronito]

I'll echo the "cost of living" thing. But also, I'm always suspicious of studies like this. Mainly because the poverty line is set so low. For a single parent with 2 kids it's 19k a year. You couldn't get someone to piss on you for 19k a year in most of California for a single person it's 11k.

I always feel that people that haven't been poor think, "Well, they're over the poverty line! Yay us!" When really people are still in dire straits.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

It's pretty amazing how many people feel comfortable simultaneously taking the moral high-ground whilst personally insulting people.

And yet him being wilfully ignorant isn't just as insulting?

 

[EMT0]

It's pretty amazing how many people feel comfortable simultaneously taking the moral high-ground whilst personally insulting people.

Considering how that specific person being insulted values the wellbeing of others and seems to completely ignore economic data...I can't say I blame em.

 

[RustyNails]

You know what else lifts people out of poverty? Bootstraps.

 

[Htown]

As a grown man, I've never met a mentally stable adult that wanted to get ahead and couldn't.

So I'm all for better community provided assistance for the mentally ill or incapable.

But if you're capable and still struggling? You're probably not really trying.

You're an idiot.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Minimum Wage Thread Checklist:

- If the poors make $10/hour for doing jobs I deem unworthy of such a lofty wage, my wage needs to be raised too! (CHECK)
- If the poors get more money, we'll have to pay more for Big Macs! (CHECK)

You're on a masterful troll roll today.

Burger King is already charging $.50 for a slice if cheese. Where do we draw the line!?!

Anyway, if you are all for "getting up by your boot straps ' muRica!" Then you should be FOR an increase in minimum wage. The current model just means the tax payer and government are subsidizing these multi billion dollar companies by way of Food stamps and welfare. How about WalMart and mcDonalds "pull themselves up by their boot straps" and stop expecting tax payer money to subsidize their employees salaries?

 

[freenudemacusers]

only $5 for the entire decade

And walked 10 miles to work uphill both ways

he definitely had to pinch pennies

Burger King is already charging $.50 for a slice if cheese. Where do we draw the line!?!

well, that's burger king's premium quality cheese. not exactly a general market substitutable item.

 

[heliosRAzi]

he definitely had to pinch pennies

How many bootstraps did he pull?

 

[shadowsdarknes]

As a grown man, I've never met a mentally stable adult that wanted to get ahead and couldn't.

So I'm all for better community provided assistance for the mentally ill or incapable.

But if you're capable and still struggling? You're probably not really trying.

And to those that point to unmarried mothers with 3 kids struggling to get by - why do you think she felt comfortable enough to get in that situation? Becaus she knew shed get bailed out.

And between food stamps (which provide more food a month than I can afford) and unemployment and every other social service, you can get by pretty well without doing much of shit. I know several people that live this lifestyle. I work hard all day so they don't have to. You'd never guess that they're "poor". And you can't tell me it's not true because I KNOW these people.

Your anecdotes are irrelevant.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'll echo the "cost of living" thing. But also, I'm always suspicious of studies like this. Mainly because the poverty line is set so low. For a single parent with 2 kids it's 19k a year. You couldn't get someone to piss on you for 19k a year in most of California for a single person it's 11k.

I always feel that people that haven't been poor think, "Well, they're over the poverty line! Yay us!" When really people are still in dire straits.

A related problem is that of the people way, way below it - often times, the people that need the most help are those that, realistically, aren't going to get above the poverty line. So often public policy is aimed at helping those that exist just below the poverty line move to just above it. Oftentimes, these people won't even know they were in poverty, or that they got "lifted" out of it. It discourages governments from working to help those that are the most poor, because it costs 5x as much money to lift them out of poverty, using the strict definition. One example of this is working tax credits in the UK - they were invented basically as a political tool to boast about poverty figures.

And yet him being wilfully ignorant isn't just as insulting?

What's that got to do with the seeming hypocrisy I mentioned? It's not a competition about who can be the smaller wanker.

 

[Meaning Of Karma]

Fuck that. All $10 an hour is going to do is get rid of my dollar menu. People on minimum wage typically aren't working full-time anyway.

Are you for fucking real, guy?

 

[freenudemacusers]

How many bootstraps did he pull?

his generation didn't have straps, just speedlaces

 

[King Cobra]

I never had it easy. I grew up in Miami in the 80s during Reagan's War on Drugs. I'm a nurse practitioner making close to six figures and yet I can still look back on my life and admit that I got lucky in certain situations while others didn't.

You on the other hand, like a previous poster stated, are the worst fucking people.

Just because I refuse to entertain the idea that luck is the deciding factor on your circumstances? Yeah I have a feeling your parents probably did most of the pulling if you think like that.

Now, if everyone is relentless, unless there are infinite top working positions, that means that some people working relentlessly won't get ahead in life, right?

Don’t you worry about that scenario, truth is even if it was made out clear and simple what you needed to succeed in your endeavors you would still have people who wouldn’t put in that effort. So don’t worry about a bottleneck with a sudden surge of motivated people.

 

[heliosRAzi]

his generation didn't have straps, just speedlaces

Which generation does the air pumps?

 

[soul creator]

I'm surprised by how many people here think that the minimum wage shouldn't be regionally altered.

It already is. Federal minimum wage is just the baseline, but states can (and do) go above it if they want.

The problem is that the states which often need it most, don't actually raise it for their citizens, so the federal government ideally should make sure some minimum standard is met. Similar concept with how health insurance, credit card laws, etc. works in this country.

Don’t you worry about that scenario, truth is even if it was made out clear and simple what you needed to succeed in your endeavors you would still have people who wouldn’t put in that effort. So don’t worry about a bottleneck with a sudden surge of motivated people.

"You poked a giant hole in my argument, so let's just not think about it too hard, and let me maintain my irrational belief, thanks."

 

[Freshmaker]

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.htm#2


By and large, that woman doesn't exists.

I've actually known that woman several times over. One of them her and her husband both worked two jobs while supporting three kids.

 

[bananas]

People in here saying we shouldn't raise the minimum wage because the cost of fast food might go up?

Seriously?

How big of a piece of shit do you have to be?

 

[CyclopsRock]

It already is. Federal minimum wage is just the baseline, but states can (and do) go above it if they want.

The problem is that the states which often need it most, don't actually raise it for their citizens, so the federal government ideally should make sure some minimum standard is met. Similar concept with how health insurance, credit card laws, etc. works in this country.

Right - but it's pretty well accepted that minimum wage's over a certain amount of the median income (somewhere around 50%) for a given demographic is harmful. So doesn't a national one basically mean that it's either increasingly useless away from the poorest demographic in the counter, or otherwise harmful to those under it (if it's not placed at the lowest area's 50% median)?

 

[subrock]

Also remember that people in lower brackets earning more means people in lower brackets spending more, which means businesses earning more, and so on.

Trickle up?! How dare you suggest that!

 

[Kajigger]

Are you for fucking real, guy?

Are you real?

 

[Carnby]

woosh

Welp I guess I can't compete with a condescending person like you who thinks that increasing my cost of living when I already live pay check to pay check will not have any effect on my life style or the family I'm raising. Because Walmart study.

 

[Zhengi]

Their study appears to be here.

I've only had a chance to get a preliminary look at the document. I noticed that these were the organizations who conducted/funded?/endorsed the study.

The Food Labor Research Center at the
University of California, Berkeley

and

The Food Chain Workers Alliance
& The Restaurant Opportunities Centers
(ROC-United)

Who exactly are these organizations? Looking at their webpages, this is the information on these organizations:

The Food Labor Research Center at the
University of California, Berkeley

The Food Labor Research Center was launched in fall 2012 by Saru Jayaraman as a project of the Labor Center at the University of California, Berkeley. As a leader in the movement for food worker justice, Saru saw a gap in the study of the intersection of food and labor. While there are several University centers that focus on labor studies, and others that focus on food studies, the Food Labor Research Center at the University of California, Berkeley is the first academic institution anywhere in the country to focus on the intersection between food and labor issues in the U.S. and abroad.

The Food Chain Workers Alliance

The Food Chain Workers Alliance is a coalition of worker-based organizations whose members plant, harvest, process, pack, transport, prepare, serve, and sell food, organizing to improve wages and working conditions for all workers along the food chain. The Alliance works together to build a more sustainable food system that respects workers’ rights, based on the principles of social, environmental and racial justice, in which everyone has access to healthy and affordable food.

The Restaurant Opportunities Centers

The mission of the Restaurant Opportunities Centers (ROC) United is to improve wages and working conditions for the nation’s restaurant workforce. We are 10,000 restaurant workers, 100 high-road employers, thousands of engaged consumers united for raising restaurant industry standards. - See more at: http://rocunited.org/about-us/#sthash.oJYol5mW.dpuf

These are the authors of the study:

Chris Benner is an Associate Professor of Community and Regional Development
at the University of California, Davis.

Saru Jayaraman is the Director of the Food Labor Research Center at the
University of California, Berkeley and the Co-Founder and Co-Director of the
Restaurant Opportunities Centers United.

I'll still go through the rest of the document, but already, this study seems to be overly biased just like how cigarette companies sponsor cigarette studies back in the old days.

 

[King Cobra]

I've actually known that woman several times over. One of them her and her husband both worked two jobs while supporting three kids.

Sigh, even with my salary I would not feel responsible having a child at this time. You reap what you sow.

 

[ronito]

Sigh, even with my salary I would not feel responsible having a child at this time. You reap what you sow.

Because financial situations never change.

 

[Meaning Of Karma]

Are you real?

Realer than the piss chugger who wants to fuck the poors in the ass just so that he can buy from a fucking dollar menu.

 

[Seeds]

Don’t you worry about that scenario, truth is even if it was made out clear and simple what you needed to succeed in your endeavors you would still have people who wouldn’t put in that effort. So don’t worry about a bottleneck with a sudden surge of motivated people.

Seeing as there aren't enough jobs for everyone, that bottleneck already exists.

 

[Pryce]

But fox news said this would destroy the economy and hurt the middle class!

 

[DY_nasty]

People in here saying we shouldn't raise the minimum wage because the cost of fast food might go up?

Seriously?

How big of a piece of shit do you have to be?

First fastfood

then bootstraps

i don't want to live in a world with 50 cent bootstraps

 

[hidys]

I am astonished by the apathy of people in this thread. Especially since i live in a country with a minimum wage of $16.37.

That being said the only really compelling argument I've heard against having a minimum wage is having a negative income tax instead, but that has all sorts of other problems associated with it.

In practice raising the mi minimum wage would make very little difference to the unemployment rate.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Here's an interesting (I think) question: In a market where the government, up to a certain point, defines wages based effectively on need rather than productive capacity, how does one define the "value" of labour in that area? In other words, if no one is willing to pay you $10.10 an hour to do something, to what extent can your labour be said to be "worth" $10.10?

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Just because I refuse to entertain the idea that luck is the deciding factor on your circumstances? Yeah I have a feeling your parents probably did most of the pulling if you think like that.
.

More bullshit assumptions. My parents got a divorce at age 5 and it was all up to my mother raising my sister and myself. I joined the military so I can use the GI Bill for free education and the rest is history.

Keep on digging that hole and being wilfully ignorant. Now it's becoming comical.

 

[jsip]

So a single mother with a kid who has to work 2-3 minimum wage jobs with irregular hours and no health insurance isn't "persevering" or "working hard"?

If you're not able to make a livable wage (have your bills and expenses covered with a bit left over) in that situation, society has failed, not you.

I'll do you one better. My mother worked 3 jobs to support her three children (not just "a kid"). Why? Because she didnt have the skills necessary to find a single job that did the same. What did she do? She kept working and got the skills necessary and found that single job.

I love my mom but having to work 3 jobs was not society's failure and never will be. In the absence of "good jobs" when you are forced to work jobs outside of your skill set just to pay bills it is also not society's fault and not your own (partly), rather, the policies of our leaders which led to that situstion of forced hands. Even then, the ability to prepare and adapt to change is not something that is ever taught (sadly) and by consequence part of the blame still falls on the individual.

There is only so far an individual can pass the buck. This isnt some "bootstraps" mentality, it's common sense. Being proactive isnt something today's reactive society is good at.

You are free to pretend that the individual is never at fault, if you wish: Woe is me, woe is me.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Some of these characters really make me laugh. Thank goodness for problem-solvers and critical thinkers rather than the mere idealists.

 

[King Cobra]

Because financial situations never change.

Because we are still primitive beings who are only driven on impulse and lack common sense and forethought right? Because it is right to put yourself into a situation where one change can send you into a downward spiral, that totally isn't irresponsible as all hell.

 

[The Technomancer]

Here's an interesting (I think) question: In a market where the government, up to a certain point, defines wages based effectively on need rather than productive capacity, how does one define the "value" of labour in that area? In other words, if no one is willing to pay you $10.10 an hour to do something, to what extent can your labour be said to be "worth" $10.10?

Well that's kind of the thing, isn't it? I'm absolutely positive that there is labor currently making minimum wage that, if there was no mandated minimum wage, employers would be only offering even less then $7 an hour. The question is: how socially responsible is that?

It can be said to be "worth" $10.10 because we are saying that we have decided that all labor is worth at least $10.10

 

[Opiate]

People in here saying we shouldn't raise the minimum wage because the cost of fast food might go up?

Seriously?

How big of a piece of shit do you have to be?

It's more complicated than this. Here is the chain of economics that makes this a complicated discussion:

1) We raise minimum wage
2) Because we raise minimum wage, more money enters the economy as more people spend. Inflation occurs over time.
3) As this inflation occurs, the value of the minimum wage increase decreases until (possibly) it is completely nullified. Poor people end up with the same total purchasing power, just making 15 dollars an hour to buy a 15 dollar T-shirt instead of making 8 dollars an hour to buy the same T-shirt for an uninflated 8 dollars.

Now, that possibly in italics in step 3 is the real discussion here. Virtually all economists agree that an increase in minimum wage causes an increase in inflation; the question is how large it is, and what portion of the increase in wages is nullified by it.

 

[DY_nasty]

Because we are still primitive beings who are only driven on impulse and lack common sense and forethought right? Because it is right to put yourself into a situation where one change can send you into a downward spiral, that totally isn't irresponsible as all hell.

everyone should definitely have a savings account

good tip

 

[Joeki11a]

Their has to be a catch to this, is probably microchip or scan bars behind your necks

 

[Freshmaker]

Sigh, even with my salary I would not feel responsible having a child at this time. You reap what you sow.

The fact is they had access to minimum wage jobs, and that's how they managed to make ends meet. They were good honest hard working people. Sucks to be them right?

I have also encountered several people that had to live out of their cars (one of them a vetran) while working full time. They had to play can and mouse with the cops just to get a decent night's sleep in their cars. (When it wasn't below zero etc.)

 

[Opiate]

Here's an interesting (I think) question: In a market where the government, up to a certain point, defines wages based effectively on need rather than productive capacity, how does one define the "value" of labour in that area? In other words, if no one is willing to pay you $10.10 an hour to do something, to what extent can your labour be said to be "worth" $10.10?

I would argue that, at least in America, productivity and wages have long been decoupled, and much less commonly in favor of employees. If you want to recouple wages and productivity, that's fine, but I don't think that's actually a position corporations would want to take.

 

[ronito]

Because we are still primitive beings who are only driven on impulse and lack common sense and forethought right? Because it is right to put yourself into a situation where one change can send you into a downward spiral, that totally isn't irresponsible as all hell.

Hey, since we're talking about annecdotes let me give you mine.

I have a friend who worked for Perot Systems doing work within their IT org. Very successful at what he did. Made six figures was financially stable and had four kids. Why not? He could support them. Then the bottom fell out of the market, and outsourcing happened dude got laid off. Further his wife had some real serious health issues which sapped their savings. Took years and years for the guy to find a job and when he did it wasn't nearly as much as he used to make because he couldn't move because his wife's condition. But hey, fuck him right? That irresponsible fuck.