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2011 NBA Mar |OT| Now listening to the Stan Van Gundy mixtape
- Thread starter reilo
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TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Red Blaster said:
Do you think the Knicks will be a force????
Barrage
Member
The more I think about it, the less enthused I am about the prospect of Derrick Rose being potentially named MVP. I'm all for intangibles, but the guy is not Top 5 in the NBA in ANY STAT CATEGORY. If Rose gets the nod, that may be the first time in NBA history that's ever happened.
Black Mamba
Member
giri said:
AB is a solid man defender. Who scores on him regularly? Amar'e, for example, almost always has poor outings against him. You should know being a Suns fan and all. Career 42.5% shooter against Bynum during the season.
I've watched Drew his entire career and in the last 3 seasons I struggle to recall opposing big men continually posted their average or better against him on offense.
Timmy is 44% career against Andrew. In fact, he's 5/26 this season against Drew.
Bynum's last 3 games vs D. Jordan he's averaged 18 & 10 on over 60% shooting. Jordan is 7 & 10 on 50% shooting. I'm not sure where this argument from Jordan comes from. Lord knows I've watched too many Clipper games, but the guy is a good defensive player but nothing special yet. He still over-commits for blocks, something I'm sure Camby taught him. BTW, The Clippers defense is the same with Jordan in or out of the game at 111 DEff. They're also worse at defensive rebounding when he's in the game than off.
As far as being "out of position," that's just not close to being true. Almost always it's Pau. But anyway, Bynum's role in the defense is usually to play a type of zone (Lamar does it as well, specifically in the Gasol-Odom combo). The Lakers defense is not an actual man to man D and hasn't been for some time. The team is supposed to funnel players at certain angles into Bynum. He is almost never out of position, most scores done in his area are a result of him helping out correctly and someone else failing to rotate properly.
Lopez's D has hardly improved in 3 seasons and I say this having thought he was the steal of that draft.
You continual derision of Bynum's defense is not played out by any number whatsoever.
Bynum on floor: DEff - 101.4, SB% - 7%, EFG% against - 47.3, FTA 22, DRB% - 73.9%
Bynum off floor: Deff - 106.7, SB% - 5%, EFG% against - 48.3, FTA 24, DRB% - 69%
Now look at the 5 man units with the starting PG/wings.
Fisher-Bryant-Artest-Gasol-Bynum: DEff 1.02; 53% Rebound
Fisher-Bryant-Artest-Odom-Bynum: DEff 0.90 52% Rebound
Fisher-Bryant-Artest-Odom-Gasool: Deff 1.03 56% Rebound
Gasol is the problem on defense, not Bynum. Bynum is the only reason the Lakers can get away with starting Fisher. FTR, the 3 lineups are about the same on offense.
Also, there are less shots within 10 feet when Bynum is in the game. The Lakers with Bynum are an average defensive team. With him they are a very good defensive team.
You can't on one hand say he's not good defensively and then say he has an impact on the other hand. And then you claim it's just because he's tall. Many tall players have stunk on defense. Of course it helps as a starting point to be tall, but Bynum has good defensive instincts. He challenges a ton of shots when he's mobile. He has dominated games on defense for the past 2 weeks and has changed our defensive ability since he came back. There will always be letdown games for all players, to base anything on that is unfair.
So because a bunch of nervous fans complain it validates the criticism? come on, now. The Lakers over the past 3 seasons have been a better defensive rebounding team when Bynum is on the floor than when he's not. Bynum-Gasol and Bynum-Odom has always outrebounded the Odom-Gasol frontline. These are facts. Either we have to believe this is a fluke (which would be laughable considering the amount of data) or that there is something Bynum gives the team that translates to more rebounds for the team. Maybe his personal numbers aren't as high as people want, but rebounding should always be measured as a team activity first. This is why David Lee can go to the Warriors along with Amundson and play with Biedrens and their rebounding can still suck despite all 3 people good individual rebounders. Defensive rebounding is very much correlated with defensive ability.
Mentally he's there. It's all about staying healthy. Those good stretches were undermined by an injury, not a mental issue.
That's also unfair. T-Mac's problem was his work ethic, which is why his back often failed him. Bynum works hard but has been unfortunate. Not the same. And of course, Bynum never had a 2-3 season stretch like T-Mac has.
I know he gets shit on because of the injuries and laker fans hyping him up every season. I'm well aware. But defensively, Bynum is one of the best centers in the league. I don't even see how this is a question. Every statisitical analysis you'd come up with bears this out. Every time watching it's obvious to see how many shots he changes and how other centers struggle to score against him.
What else do you think drives the Laker defense? I'm curious. Artest can still be an excellent wing defender and Odom is also an underrated defender (except against big bodied dudes who push him around). But Gasol is just average and Fisher is just terrible. Kobe used to be good but this season his lateral quickness seems to have been sapped by the knee injury to the point that he's actually a liability against athletic guys now (yes, I'm saying it. Kobe's defense has sucked a lot this season and I swear he better not be on an all-defensive team). So if Fisher, Kobe, and Gasol are at the very best average combined (and I'm being very generous considering Fisher), either you believe Artest is super amazing on defense or you have to realize that Bynum is a huge chunk of why the Lakers defense is as good as it is (I believe as a team it's now 101.4 DEff, down from about 103 before Bynum's return).
Ninja Scooter
Member
The 3 point line is for pussies anyway.giri said:
Brewer isn't a great shooter, but he's a superb defender, which Korver isn't. Poo is right, though, and Brewer can hit open jump shots from certain spots. What he brings to the game, however, isn't his shooting ability, but rather, his stealing ability and his tough defensive nature.
BTW, Boozer HAS NOT been a bad teammate this season. I've watched every Bulls game this year, with the exception of a few, and he's always jumping up and down supporting guys on the bench, and talking and helping guys when he's on the floor. This team has great chemistry, and he adds to it.
BTW, Boozer HAS NOT been a bad teammate this season. I've watched every Bulls game this year, with the exception of a few, and he's always jumping up and down supporting guys on the bench, and talking and helping guys when he's on the floor. This team has great chemistry, and he adds to it.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
Is he still leading the league in combined pts/ast/reb?Barrage said:
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Last time I checked, Rose was the only player top 10 in points and assists and breaking ankles.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Pretty sure he leads the league in blank stares.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Fuck it. hahahaha
Black Mamba
Member
giri said:
I just want to address this. Advanced stats and metrics do have flaws. The problem with analyzing basketball players individually is that their is too much of the team dynamic that affects the action. It's not like baseball where we can isolate situations and say something positively about it.
But at the same time we cannot ignore stats and metrics just because they have flaws.
Humans have flaws too. We all view things through our own lenses. Perhaps my argument about Bynum is somehwat biased being a Laker fan. I understand this and I try my best to be as objective as possible, but being human my mind will always add a sub-conscious texture to what I see.
The argument that "I watch the games, bro" is a bad one because it opens yourself up to confirmation bias.
So while you should start off based on what you see, arguments can and should be supplemented with as much data as possible when needed. Are there issues with PER? Of course as the metric is beneficial to you if you're inefficient at scoring (IMO) so long as you shoot a lot. Adjusted plus-minus is very wonky, especially at the 1 year level and the 2 or 3 year levels still have major issues. Win Shares doesn't really attribute for defense properly (nor does PER for that matter). But that doesn't mean it should be thrown out, either. There are still fairly reliable aspects about them.
And the biggest issue is we don't have all the data we need recorded. Some teams might have a lot more, but we as fans don't. Synergy is a nice starting point, but it's expensive.
Edit: it should be noted that some stats are generally useless too. Efg% should be used for more players (or TS%) and not just straight FG% (bigs where efg% and FG% are the same don't matter). Rebounds should be replaced by Rebound %. Same with turnovers.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
dIEHARD said:
People love stats so I provided them.
If they use "top" stats against Rose, it's only fair that they can be used for him.
This isn't a one way street.
I'd rather watch how he impacts the game but like The Black Mamba stated, sometimes better to use both.
The guy didn't mention Dwight Howard at all.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
dIEHARD said:
Give him the MVP then, I could care less, I want playoff success.
I just argue for the fuck of it and when people unbelievably try to discredit Rose.
Ask Doc Rivers about it all.
Black Mamba
Member
I still think Dirk and Dwight are top 2 in MVP. That's my opinion. No knock on Rose. Rose has played without Boozer or Noah for a lot of the season which bolsters his resume.
I just keep seeing how Dallas fell apart without Dirk and I just don't trust Dwight's supporting cast at all.
I don't think anyone has pulled away from the pack this season which is why it's a bit confusing. There isn't even anyone being overrated by a team's record or some individual stat to trick us.
I wouldn't be upset if any of those 3 got it.
I just keep seeing how Dallas fell apart without Dirk and I just don't trust Dwight's supporting cast at all.
I don't think anyone has pulled away from the pack this season which is why it's a bit confusing. There isn't even anyone being overrated by a team's record or some individual stat to trick us.
I wouldn't be upset if any of those 3 got it.
Boombloxer
Member
To me, its Rose.
MidnightCowboy
Member
MVP is Rose. Not easily, because of Dwight and Dirk, but he's still the MVP. Dwight's team is stacked.
i'd give it to dwight just because at this point, orlando's strategy is lets see how bad we can make the perimeter defensive players and see if dwight can keep the teams D together.
Rose has a better supporting cast than dwight at this point (maybe not with injuries, but with a healthy team)MidnightCowboy said:
MidnightCowboy
Member
In a way, that's true. But I think it has more to do with the team not playing to its potential, rather than being downright worse. The Magic are a really deep team, they just don't play hard enough (besides Dwight). They're like the Nuggets (Pre Melo trade) of the East.punkypine said:
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
Ballers : what shorts are you guys rocking on the court? Im gonna grab some new shorts to hit the gym with. Recommendations?
Red Blaster
Member
Can someone firmly backup why Rose should be MVP? There's plenty of evidence why he shouldn't be (Not the best player at his position, scores at mediocre efficiency, Bulls win primarily due to their excellent defense and rebounding). Basically the only defense I've seen is that the Bulls are overachieving expectations and because he's the leading scorer he should get all the credit for it.
who had spurs 7 games up on anyone else in the west? duncan MVP?ph33nix said:
i'm not a fan of choose the best player on the best or most overachieving team, pick the player who has played best that year. I'm with Red Blaster on this one, Rose is having an excellent year but he's getting over credited for a defensively solid team.
I wouldn't be offended if Rose one, but if I had a vote, I wouldn't vote for him
Black Mamba
Member
Red Blaster said:
Rose on the court: OEff: 110.5
Rose off the court: OEff: 99.6
That's pretty ridiculous statistically in basketball. Bigger than Dwight. Of course, the defense sees the opposite in a strange way. With Rose, 103.3 (which is still good) but without Rose 92.9 (which is obscenely good). It's actually Asik that is doing it. His defensive efficiency units are off the charts good. Like, all-time good. Something weird has to be going on.
But overall it's their defense that is the key. Rose deserves credit, but I think Noah, Asik, Deng, and Gibson are the backbone of it.
Rose is interesting in the advanced metric community. He seems to be more all over the map than most players (some metrics have him great, others good but nothing special).
I don't think the season he's having would normally even merit top 3 consideration, but this season is strange like that. With Miami players having no chance, no one on the Spurs really having a superb individual season, Hornets fizzling, Kobe slowing down, Durant underwhelming compared to expectations, we have this situation.
I really think if Dirk didn't get hurt, he'd be running away with it. If that team had just 13 losses and was fighting with Spurs for the 1 seed, I don't see how it isn't his.
MidnightCowboy
Member
I shake my head at any mention of an advanced metric community.Blackace said:
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Dwight is the MVP.
Nothing weird is going on, Asik is close to being a top 10 defender in the NBA and only plays with Chicago's bench mob usually which is filled with exceptional defenders.
Nothing weird is going on, Asik is close to being a top 10 defender in the NBA and only plays with Chicago's bench mob usually which is filled with exceptional defenders.
TylerD Perk watch status: super antsy.
He denied Durant when candy was offered to him after Westbrook and Durant sat for the 4th yesterday and pulled out the box of candy to have a treat. He don't need no stinking candy! Badass confirmed.
I would love to see him for 10-15 minutes tonight just to get some game time before the Heat on Wednesday.
The Thunder look a lot better offensively and defensively since the trade. Who knew getting rid of one of the most inefficient offensive players in the league who played little to no defense and was playing so much of the game would help so much?
He denied Durant when candy was offered to him after Westbrook and Durant sat for the 4th yesterday and pulled out the box of candy to have a treat. He don't need no stinking candy! Badass confirmed.
I would love to see him for 10-15 minutes tonight just to get some game time before the Heat on Wednesday.
The Thunder look a lot better offensively and defensively since the trade. Who knew getting rid of one of the most inefficient offensive players in the league who played little to no defense and was playing so much of the game would help so much?
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
K.Jack said:
I'm hoping that the NBA will do avoid a lockout like it did the last time the CBA expired.
captmcblack
Member
When the NBA locks out, I'll be watching baseball.
When there's no baseball, I'll probably be drinking myself into a stupor without any sports to watch. :x
When there's no baseball, I'll probably be drinking myself into a stupor without any sports to watch. :x
Isn't the league asking for a 1/3 pay cut, or something crazy?LovingSteam said:
I gotta roll with my fellow Cleveland fanatic, Drew Carey's Seattle Sounders.reilo said:
Let's be rivals.
I just saw a game end @ 36-33, finished by a last second three.giga said:
no thanks I'll watch the WNBA instead.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Kentucky's going to be amazing to watch next year with Gilchrist, AD, and Teague. Too bad they have Calipari coaching though.
For me college bball is like college football: I will watch the biggest games but besides that I can't stand the sport itself. But I am fascinated by the recruiting (or cheating) and building of programs, stuff like that.
I used to get shit for liking pro sports, I guess part of that is because I went to UT where no one gives a shit about pro sports and its all about college..."How can you like pro sports where athletes are greedy and only play for money! College kids try harder and have heart!"
I used to get shit for liking pro sports, I guess part of that is because I went to UT where no one gives a shit about pro sports and its all about college..."How can you like pro sports where athletes are greedy and only play for money! College kids try harder and have heart!"
Wizards Aim To Build Around John Wall As Presti Did With Durant
For fuck's sake, man. This is getting annoying.
RealGM said:
For fuck's sake, man. This is getting annoying.
Yeah, that too, damn it sucks. Close games are so bad in the end, because of it. Look at how early they have to start fouling, in a one point game.TylerD said:
Also:
- high school three point line is ugh. Move that shit back to NBA limits. Grown men have no business, being awarded 3 for shots that close to the basket.
- 4 quarters PLEASE. Two looong periods is freaking lame.
NBA SNOBS UNITE
*sips coffee with pinkie in air*
I got dibs on the Cleveland Cavaliers. Oh shi-....ToxicAdam said:
But the NBDL is owned and run by the NBA, so I'm pretty sure they shut down too.
Kahn Denies Report Rambis Will Be Fired And Replaced By Sampson
Sorry, Rodeo.
Hopefully the "report" came from the owner and they'll both be gone soon.
RealGM said:
Sorry, Rodeo.
Hopefully the "report" came from the owner and they'll both be gone soon.
Last time I checked, the last bunch of MVPS were on teams that were either on the #1 team in the conference, or absolutely destroying teams with stats(Nash for example). Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Nash. Considering Rose is basically like an Isiah Thomas or a Magic Johnson with way more scoring, and Lebron won it back to back without even being the best player in the league(Kobe both of those years, even with broken fingers), he just helped a team have a great record and was having a stellar season on the #1 team on the conference.dIEHARD said:
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