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2011 NBA Mar |OT| Now listening to the Stan Van Gundy mixtape
- Thread starter reilo
- Start date
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Not trying to pick on you in particular but this is an example of how fallacious logic can be used to try to make something seem lopsided when it's not. Shooting, passing, and FT skill are all offensive (entirely so). End of game impact isn't necessarily offensive but you're clearly talking about offensive impact since Rose doesn't impact the endgame much defensively. Since you've put the entire defensive half of the game into a single category, let me do the same thing with offense. Then we find this:TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Offense - no
Defense - yes
Rebounds - yes
This is all assuming that what you said earlier was entirely accurate.
Does this mean Howard is more skilled? No. But it illustrates why you shouldn't try to start list wars type arguments like this.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
That was sad, Al.
I think the Hornets still get 30-35 without CP3, but I think the Suns only win like 5 without Nash. And I think that's a legitimate argument for Nash for MVP.
I think the Hornets still get 30-35 without CP3, but I think the Suns only win like 5 without Nash. And I think that's a legitimate argument for Nash for MVP.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
How can you know this? If the bulls didn't have drose they would have 5 wins. See I can throw bullshit numbers out too.ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
You can look at the cavs this year and see that lebron did deserve his MVPs but enough with the hypothetical BS.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Cloudy said:
But it's always been all hype. Kobe didn't win that year because the voters gave a shit about advanced stats. He won because it was his turn, and he had a good enough season to give it to him without seeming like it's a gift/pity win.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
cuevas said:
The Bulls have good players other than Rose, you can tell by watching the team.
The Magic have no good players other than Dwight, you can tell by watching the team.
The Bulls base their offense on Rose.
The Magic base their offense and defense on Dwight.
Cloudy said:
The Bucks are fourth in DRtg and have the second best defender in the NBA on their team.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Cloudy said:
Always qualifying everything you are.
Look up the Bulls' record against the Western teams(including the best).
They've beaten everyone and Rose has often made the difference.
Grimm Fandango
Member
TheGreatMightyPoo said:
They are a good team but their record is seriously inflated. Cavs are historically bad and the other 3 teams in their division might not scratch 35 wins even though they play in such a shit division! And that's all before the 4 games vs the Raps, Nets, Wiz etc. are factored in
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Then why did everyone have the Magic as a higher seed pre-season than the Bulls???
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Grimm Fandango said:
/discussion
for me at least
Have to get ready to pick up my 3DS!!!!
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Because people mistaken thought Rashard Lewis and Jameer Nelson didn't suck and no one really saw Asik and Gibson being so good.
It's usually not mentioned because they are injury-prone players, but I would say that does matter for MVP voting. Still, Asik would arguably be the second best player on the Magic, that is a horrible roster.
People didn't realize that Wince, Shard, and (later) Gilly were now finally, completely done and Jameer was not far behind, nor did they realize how much better Rose, and the Bulls as a whole, would be this year. And, more simply, because other than in exceptional circumstances like the formation of the Heat, preseason rankings almost always look really similar to the previous season's rankings. People just kinda assume things are going to stay about the same.TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Ninja Scooter
Member
Cloudy said:
it is because his team is surprisingly better than people thought, and the contenders on other teams all have issues:
Kobe-old and beat up, Lakers being credited more as a team than an individual
Lebron-already won it twice and people don't like him
Dwight-Magic are worse than they were the last 2 years. There could be a variety of reasons why this is the case, but you're not going to get rewarded for being worse than before.
People didn't anticipate Jennings being out or ineffective for most of the season, among other things. And of course the Bulls were way, way better than anyone had anticipated. I think people were kind of underwhelmed by the Boozer signing TBH and may have lowered their expectations unduly because of it.erlim said:
Anyone who's not a fan of Magic and saying Dwight should be MVP is simply stupid. I don't care if he improved his game this season. If it doesn't translate to wins, then it doesn't matter. The Magic have regressed this season. If Dwight wasn't good enough to get MVP last season, then there's no reason for him to get it now.
Rose is clearly the MVP favorite with Carmelo a close second.
Rose is clearly the MVP favorite with Carmelo a close second.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Sharp said:
Everyone should expect Maggette and Gooden...
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Sick of saying Dwight is the MVP and I came up a better candidate. Raja Bell. No one helps 29 teams more than Raja Bell per minute with his "I'm a spotup shooter who will literally pass up every single wide-open three I get" and his "I'm a lockdown defender who happens to be the worst defender in the league" and it feels like he leads the league in minutes played. Raja Bell is your National Basketball Association Most Valuable Player beating out Travis Outlaw thanks to minutes played.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Ninja Scooter said:
This. I never understood this. Why wasn't Williams pursued by the Knicks? Statistically, him and Melo are on a similar page (though DWill's the better 3-shot), but then you look at the consistent double-digit average of assists per game...and clearly Williams is a player with scope and field vision far better than Melo. Carmelo doesn't help the Knicks at all because he can't create a play for others. DWill actually fits D'Antoni's system.
13 assists vs. 3 per game.
epicfacepalm.gif
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Reporter: "Why do the Jazz suck at closing games?"
Corbin: "It's dem rookies, ruining everything!"
Reporter: "The rookies don't play in crunch time..."
Corbin: "Yeah, you're right :crying"
Yeah.
Deron has gotten out of the first round three times as many times as Melo despite being in the league two years less. And Deron is a great basketball player whereas Melo isn't. Melo is T-Mac without the talent (Different games, but similar result)
Corbin: "It's dem rookies, ruining everything!"
Reporter: "The rookies don't play in crunch time..."
Corbin: "Yeah, you're right :crying"
Yeah.
Deron has gotten out of the first round three times as many times as Melo despite being in the league two years less. And Deron is a great basketball player whereas Melo isn't. Melo is T-Mac without the talent (Different games, but similar result)
Ninja Scooter
Member
Cloudy said:
He is younger, actually plays some defense, plays a more premium and important position and would fit in better with D'Antoni and especially Amare. They would feast with the pick and roll. The rule changes have made this a point guard/creator league. A PG who can score, create and attack is far more important than a scoring SF who does little else. I'm pretty sure most every GM in the league would take Deron over Melo.
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
SephCast said:
Because Luol Deng and Boozer with a peg leg could take the entire Magic roster sans Dwight by themselves.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Cloudy said:
if you were a GM, in what scenario would you take Melo over Deron?
open_mouth_
insert_foot_
D'antoni's system broken down for those who find it too complicated (like Billups):
-it's a seven seconds or less system, which means if you have a deep contested shot with no floor balance for offensive rebounds or transition defense, you absolutely take it. That is, you take it so long as you don't have Amare running down the court so you can hit him in stride and watch him run over his defender.
-then once you get into the half-court set, it becomes a set with virtually limitless options:
1) you have the PG on the floor run a psych out pick and roll with Amare or Jeffries that achieves absolutely nothing except to shuffle guys around to different spots. Then from there, you pass it to Fields or Williams in the corner so they could pump fake to give the defender a chance to close out on them. From there, with a few seconds left on the clock, you hit Amare or 'Melo on a high post near the three point line so they can take a turnaround jumper or drive into four ready defenders for a wild heave. once they miss, and this is beautiful part, they have to give the closest ref an earful as they walk back up the floor to get a perfect view a 5 on 4 fastbreak layup on the other side.
2) the other play, which is just as good, has 'Melo or Amare post their man up in an attack position near the three-point line. From here, they can pump fake a few times and launch a jumper or they could hold the ball a few seconds as they watch Fields run from one baseline to the next before they put the ball on the floor as the four other defenders shift to cut them off. If they can avoid the offensive foul here or don't get the ball swiped away as the side of their face is pushing against their opponents chest, they have the option of giving the ball back to Billups or Douglas so they can break down their defender and make it all the way to the three-point line for a heave, chuck and duck style. Everyone knows three is better than two, after all.
-you may be thinking "that's not a complicated system at all" but you'd be wrong. Most coaches call a time-out when the other team scores a dozen unanswered, but in this system, you let the five out there figure it out on the fly. They'll work the ball around the perimeter for a good 20 seconds while they contemplate their next plan of attack. It's genius.
-It's all about keeping the opponent guessing. That's why you have to keep changing who starts at center every other game. If they expect Jeffries, give them Shawne. Once they are ready for that, give them Turiaf. If he's playing well, don't let them gameplan for that. Bring out Jeffries again to throw them off the scent. Even coming out of the half-time break, come out with a different line-up. Tell Fields he's not small enough to play small ball effectively. Dwight expects to get bodied up and fouled hard by Turiaf and Shelden, but put Shawne on him instead because he's never had a guy that short trying to guard him. He won't know what to do. Plus on the other end, he won't know how to defend Shawne's corner three's. It's like taking candy from a 7-foot baby.
-And seven seconds or less is not just for the offensive end. On the defensive end, just get after it for the first seven seconds before revving it down. It's like rocky. Use your face to absorb the punches and wear your opponent down while you conserve energy to hit back later on the other end. And that "or" should really be an "and" so you can also literally give "less" of everything--effort, hustle, rebounding, contesting.
-it's a seven seconds or less system, which means if you have a deep contested shot with no floor balance for offensive rebounds or transition defense, you absolutely take it. That is, you take it so long as you don't have Amare running down the court so you can hit him in stride and watch him run over his defender.
-then once you get into the half-court set, it becomes a set with virtually limitless options:
1) you have the PG on the floor run a psych out pick and roll with Amare or Jeffries that achieves absolutely nothing except to shuffle guys around to different spots. Then from there, you pass it to Fields or Williams in the corner so they could pump fake to give the defender a chance to close out on them. From there, with a few seconds left on the clock, you hit Amare or 'Melo on a high post near the three point line so they can take a turnaround jumper or drive into four ready defenders for a wild heave. once they miss, and this is beautiful part, they have to give the closest ref an earful as they walk back up the floor to get a perfect view a 5 on 4 fastbreak layup on the other side.
2) the other play, which is just as good, has 'Melo or Amare post their man up in an attack position near the three-point line. From here, they can pump fake a few times and launch a jumper or they could hold the ball a few seconds as they watch Fields run from one baseline to the next before they put the ball on the floor as the four other defenders shift to cut them off. If they can avoid the offensive foul here or don't get the ball swiped away as the side of their face is pushing against their opponents chest, they have the option of giving the ball back to Billups or Douglas so they can break down their defender and make it all the way to the three-point line for a heave, chuck and duck style. Everyone knows three is better than two, after all.
-you may be thinking "that's not a complicated system at all" but you'd be wrong. Most coaches call a time-out when the other team scores a dozen unanswered, but in this system, you let the five out there figure it out on the fly. They'll work the ball around the perimeter for a good 20 seconds while they contemplate their next plan of attack. It's genius.
-It's all about keeping the opponent guessing. That's why you have to keep changing who starts at center every other game. If they expect Jeffries, give them Shawne. Once they are ready for that, give them Turiaf. If he's playing well, don't let them gameplan for that. Bring out Jeffries again to throw them off the scent. Even coming out of the half-time break, come out with a different line-up. Tell Fields he's not small enough to play small ball effectively. Dwight expects to get bodied up and fouled hard by Turiaf and Shelden, but put Shawne on him instead because he's never had a guy that short trying to guard him. He won't know what to do. Plus on the other end, he won't know how to defend Shawne's corner three's. It's like taking candy from a 7-foot baby.
-And seven seconds or less is not just for the offensive end. On the defensive end, just get after it for the first seven seconds before revving it down. It's like rocky. Use your face to absorb the punches and wear your opponent down while you conserve energy to hit back later on the other end. And that "or" should really be an "and" so you can also literally give "less" of everything--effort, hustle, rebounding, contesting.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Derwind said:
How is he better all around? He is a better scorer, and has the most advanced/polished offensive game outside of Kobe and maybe Durant, but he plays zero defense and can't create for anyone else on his team. Deron is no slouch scoring either he's not going to attack you in as many ways as Melo, but he has a decent jumper and can attack the rim.
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
Derwind said:
Melo is the better player on offense. You know there's a second part to the game, right? Like, generally speaking, half the time you're in the game you'll be on offense. The other half of the time you're on defense. Which means defense is just as important as offense, and Melo actively takes away from his team on that side of the ball. Dude is a negative contributor during half of the game. He cannot possibly be a better "all around player" than anyone with even the smallest bit of defensive contribution that is close to him on offense.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Deron is a much better scorer when healthy and has an even more diverse scoring attack to go along with his passing, but he has been injured a lot recently so ehh. Deron sucks badly at defense, one of the worst in the league.
Ninja Scooter said:
Pretty much every one. I value elite-level scoring over every other skill and it's rare to find a guy who can give you that from anywhere on the court. Melo also has the size to score inside and doesn't need to pound the ball as much as other scorers cos he has a good jumpshot. He also helps you on the glass and is one of the few top-scorers who can even dream of guarding LeBron.
Also, I don't really like teams with the PG as the best player. You don't want your PG dominating your scoring but you don't want your best player passing up shots either!
I guess I would only take Deron if I had many rotation players who couldn't create their own shot or I already had a guy better than him on the team.
ps: Deron is my 2nd favorite player (Melo 3rd)
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Deron can score on
Isos
Postups
Curls
Cuts
Which are pretty much all the ways you can score. And he does it far more efficiently.
Isos
Postups
Curls
Cuts
Which are pretty much all the ways you can score. And he does it far more efficiently.
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