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[The Stealth Fox]

Don't forget the clinics he unleashed on shaq and david robinson.

MJ was better, but that's not the comparison. There was 6 years where nobody did anything, doesnt mean that every other player in the league was worthless

Well, this is a complete homer move, but I'd put Hakeem over MJ, just because of one thing and one thing only.

I think the greatest of all time should be a big man, not a guard. I just think that because basketball was always a big man's game.

I think that if you're big and you have skill, you are worth more than if you are small and have skill.

But that's just a little thing of mine. I'm not going to say it's completely rational.

Jordan/Kobe I think are the best SGs of all time though. I know some people get mad when I put the two in the same sentence, but man, they're virtually clones of each other at their best. You can bring up Kobe's 6-24, but Jordan had his 5-19 games too.

Some days I can't even tell the difference.

 

[SUPREME1]

He's also conveniently ignoring the nothing that Kareem did between 1972 and 1979 before Magic came to save his ass.

You mean the 4 MVPs he won during that time?

Oh that nothing!

 

[reilo]

You mean the 4 MVPs he won during that time?

Doesn't count according to LovingSteam.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Well, this is a complete homer move, but I'd put Hakeem over MJ, just because of one thing and one thing only.

I think the greatest of all time should be a big man, not a guard. I just think that because basketball was always a big man's game.

I think that if you're big and you have skill, you are worth more than if you are small and have skill.

But that's just a little thing of mine. I'm not going to say it's completely rational.

Jordan/Kobe I think are the best SGs of all time though. I know some people get mad when I put the two in the same sentence, but man, they're virtually clones of each other at their best.

Some days I can't even tell the difference.

Well at least you admit that you're a homer.

Doesn't count according to LovingSteam.

It counts when you're looking at the bigger picture. But had he never won another championship the 4 MVPs wouldn't mean as much for the overall legacy of the player. LeBron has won 2 MVP's in years that his team didin't win. Now if LeBron goes on to win a few rings then the MVP's will add to his legacy. If he goes ringless then those MVP's don't mean much.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Well at least you admit that you're a homer.

Only with regards to putting a big man over a guard.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I don't know about Hakeem being THE best ever but I will say this:

I have NEVER (in my lifetime) seen a center SINGLEHANDILY carry a team, not only to B2B chips but sweep another so called best of all time candidate in the same time frame.

Yeah, I know RP32 was younger but he got fucking swept.

 

[numble]

I love big men.
I love LO.

 

[diehard]

Does anyone know where to find old play-by-plays of games? I can only find box scores.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

It counts when you're looking at the bigger picture. But had he never won another championship the 4 MVPs wouldn't mean as much for the overall legacy of the player. LeBron has won 2 MVP's in years that his team didin't win. Now if LeBron goes on to win a few rings then the MVP's will add to his legacy. If he goes ringless then those MVP's don't mean much.

LeBron's rings will always have asterisks in my mind because he bitched out. I mean, it was his right to bitch out, but I really think that all those rings will be tainted because he cowered away from challenge. You bitch out, you don't deserve that much respect.

 

[SUPREME1]

I don't know about Hakeem being THE best ever but I will say this:

I have NEVER (in my lifetime) seen a center SINGLEHANDILY carry a team, not only to B2B chips but sweep another so called best of all time candidate in the same time frame.

Yeah, I know RP32 was younger but he got fucking swept.

A more seasoned Shaq got swept by the Jazz as well.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Only with regards to putting a big man over a guard.

I don't have GOATs but rather tiers.

Tier 1- Kareem, Russ, Magic, Jordan, Wilt
Tier 2- Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe
Tier 3- Big O, Dr.J, Moses, West, Baylor

Edit: Just to be clear, the tiers are in no particular order. I will say that for 1994-1995 I will take Hakeem over any of the other players in tier 2. His prime was amazing.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

I don't know about Hakeem being THE best ever but I will say this:

I have NEVER (in my lifetime) seen a center SINGLEHANDILY carry a team, not only to B2B chips but sweep another so called best of all time candidate in the same time frame.

Yeah, I know RP32 was younger but he got fucking swept.

Hakeem made me a Rockets fan as a child. Even after he left, I stuck with the Rockets just out of loyalty. I've lived in Orlando all my life but I didn't really care for the Magic.

I've never even set foot in Houston.

 

[AlphaSnake]

Hakeem's foot movement was a by-product of his football skills. He, quite literally, applied his football movements to basketball.

As far as saying who was better him or Kareem, you guys are seriously splitting hairs here.

 

[reilo]

I don't know about Hakeem being THE best ever but I will say this:

I have NEVER (in my lifetime) seen a center SINGLEHANDILY carry a team, not only to B2B chips but sweep another so called best of all time candidate in the same time frame.

Yeah, I know RP32 was younger but he got fucking swept.

And it wasn't exactly like Hakeem was 27-28 years old. Hakeem was a fullblown 32 years of age when the Rockets swept the Magic. That's old for a big man. Shaq at 32 was the second-best player on his team at that point.

 

[SUPREME1]

Hakeem made me a Rockets fan as a child. Even after he left, I stuck with the Rockets just out of loyalty. I've lived in Orlando all my life but I didn't really care for the Magic.

A Homer AND a Triple L?


: )

 

[The Stealth Fox]

A Homer AND a Triple L.


: )

Maybe as a kid yeah, but I had to live through the Steve Francis era.

Sure, he had highlights, but the Rockets were going nowhere....

 

[Defunkled]

Can't we stop fighting and just say that Hakeem AND Kareem were two of the most gifted NBA players of all time?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I don't know about Hakeem being THE best ever but I will say this:

I have NEVER (in my lifetime) seen a center SINGLEHANDILY carry a team, not only to B2B chips but sweep another so called best of all time candidate in the same time frame.

Yeah, I know RP32 was younger but he got fucking swept.

In fairness to Snaq, he gets a bad rap for that series, but he averaged 28pts/12.5reb/6ast on 64%FG. It's not like Hakeem shut him down or embarrassed him. The guy beasted. Statistically, he actually outplayed Dream (Hakeem had a couple Westbrookian 30 points on 30 shots games in that Finals) but his team melted down around him after Nick Anderson's choke.

 

[Tom Penny]

Hakeem was good. Right up there with Ewing.

 

[diehard]

Shaq got swept by the Bulls too. Dang he got swept a lot.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Can't we stop fighting and just say that Hakeem AND Kareem were two of the most gifted NBA players of all time?

What fun would that be? This is NBA-Age, not peace, love, and friendship forums!

 

[reilo]

Shaq got swept by the Bulls too. Dang he got swept a lot.

Don't forget the 2004 5-game sweep versus the Pissons.

 

[SUPREME1]

Can't we stop fighting and just say that Hakeem AND Kareem were two of the most gifted NBA players of all time?

...and queue reilo: "Who the F..."

 

[The Stealth Fox]

In fairness to Snaq, he gets a bad rap for that series, but he averaged 28pts/12.5reb/6ast on 64%FG. It's not like Hakeem shut him down or embarrassed him. The guy beasted. Statistically, he actually outplayed Dream (Hakeem had a couple Westbrookian 30 points on 30 shots games in that Finals) but his team melted down around him after Nick Anderson's choke.

Baby Shaq was good, but man, don't ever bring up Westbrook in the same sentence as Dream.

Of course you're going to shoot poorly at times when you are relied on so much. Jordan had some horrible games against the Sonics in the Finals too.

Shaq would be up there with all the other greats... IF HE ACTUALLY FREAKING TRIED.

Also, regarding poor performances, I know I have to troll the Lakers, but putting my rational hat on, Kobe's 6-24 doesn't take away the fact that he's the best player this decade.

People who are relied on a lot will have those games on occasion.

 

[Karakand]

Well at least you admit that you're a homer.

It's not really homerism to say guards are subordinate to bigs.

 

[Black Mamba]

That Orlando-Houston series might have gone differently had Nick Anderson not performed the greatest individual choke job I'd ever seen.

People forget, he was Orlando's 3rd best offensive player and not only did he give away game 1 in spectacular fashion, but he regressed into a cocoon shell for the rest of the series because of his choke job.

I'd honestly never seen a player do that. Had he made a FT in that spot, Orlando might have seriously won.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Shaq would be up there with all the other greats... IF HE ACTUALLY FREAKING TRIED.

I've always said this.

Shaq knew that, even overweight, he was better than 90% of the centers in his Prime era (1998-2004) so he had no incentive to try and be better.

Because of his laziness, he won't be in the serious conversation for best ever.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

That Orlando-Houston series might have gone differently had Nick Anderson not performed the greatest individual choke job I'd ever seen.

People forget, he was Orlando's 3rd best offensive player and not only did he give away game 1 in spectacular fashion, but he regressed into a cocoon shell for the rest of the series because of his choke job.

I'd honestly never seen a player do that. Had he made a FT in that spot, Orlando might have seriously won.

I think it proved that the Magic didn't have it in them to win. Shaq, Penny, or anyone else. You can't let one free throw destroy your entire team.

That just screams mental weakness. That means that they really were the worse team.

 

[etiolate]

The source said the Maloof family, which owns the team, held talks Wednesday with several top NBA officials, including members of the league's relocation committee.

The Kings owners expressed appreciation for local businesses that have pledged $10 million in sponsorship support for next year, but also shared concerns about whether their finances can withstand several years of waiting for a new arena to be built, and whether Sacramento will be able to come up with an arena plan that is financially feasible, given past failures. NBA officials, in turn, told the Maloofs to stay in Sacramento.



Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/04/28/3584712/sacramento-kings-owners-reportedly.html#ixzz1KrH8uXTz

"Sit your broke ass down."

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Baby Shaq was good, but man, don't ever bring up Westbrook in the same sentence as Dream.

Of course you're going to shoot poorly at times when you are relied on so much. Jordan had some horrible games against the Sonics in the Finals too.

Shaq would be up there with all the other greats... IF HE ACTUALLY FREAKING TRIED.

Also, regarding poor performances, I know I have to troll the Lakers, but putting my rational hat on, Kobe's 6-24 doesn't take away the fact that he's the best player this decade.

People who are relied on a lot will have those games on occasion.

My post wasn't meant to take anything away from Hakeem, just to dispel the notion that Shaq got destroyed in that series. He held his own and actually outplayed Hakeem, his team just couldn't get it done (and Shaq was probably too young to make them all better like he did in his later years).

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

My post wasn't meant to take anything away from Hakeem, just to dispel the notion that Shaq got destroyed in that series. He held his own and actually outplayed Hakeem, his team just couldn't get it done (and Shaq was probably too young to make them all better like he did in his later years).

Just like with Wilt and Russ. Wilt would outplay Russ many times but Russ's teams knew how to win. I know we laugh at RealGM but one of the mods has done an amazing job documenting the significance of Russ's defense to the success of the Celts.

 

[Black Mamba]

I think it really proves that he really doesn't have what it takes then. You can't let one free throw destroy your entire team.

That just screams mental weakness. That means that they really were the worse team.

I don't know how you blame Shaq for that. or Penny. I mean, I agree with you if the team fell apart, but it was only Nick Anderson. And I'm not saying Orlando would have won, but I do wonder.

I mean, if your 3rd best player is going to go from awesome 3 point threat, good scorer and decent defender, to a pile of playdough (play-doe?) in a matter of seconds and suddenly stay that way for the entire series, not much you can do. Like I said, I still have not witnessed an individual sink so quickly.

But that Houston team was built nicely. beaslty Dream, Drexler still awesome, Horry who was just awesome on defense and clutchness, Cassell/Smith, etc.

My post wasn't meant to take anything away from Hakeem, just to dispel the notion that Shaq got destroyed in that series. He held his own and actually outplayed Hakeem, his team just couldn't get it done (and Shaq was probably too young to make them all better like he did in his later years).

Oh, I'm advancing your position by saying Nick Anderson wilted like no one in NBA history ever has and it changed the series.

Who knows how the series turns out if he hits just 1 FT and retains his humanity.

 

[reilo]

"Sit your broke ass down."

Speaking briefly on radio, Stern repeated his belief that Southern California could support a third NBA franchise, alongside the Los Angeles Lakers and Clippers.

"It's a tough one," he said. "I think at the end of the day, you could probably find support for an NBA team."

ughhh

 

[The Stealth Fox]

My post wasn't meant to take anything away from Hakeem, just to dispel the notion that Shaq got destroyed in that series. He held his own and actually outplayed Hakeem, his team just couldn't get it done (and Shaq was probably too young to make them all better like he did in his later years).

I don't know if he outplayed him. Maybe he did so statistically, but it's not like Shaq had much of an outside game so of course his FG% is gonna be high.

Hakeem did demolish him on the offensive end, but it's not like Hakeem completely shut Shaq down defensively either, but then again, no one really could because he just had pure strength on his side. He did do a good job though.

The Rockets really had no shot without Hakeem in that series. The Magic on paper were better, IMO. I thought they were a more balanced team.

And there were times during the playoffs where Drexler was absolutely worthless. Drexler was definitely on his way down when he joined the Rockets.

 

[SamuraiX-]

If I ever met Stern in real life I would shake his hand, look him right in the eye, and politely ask him if I could use my dick as a cork to stop the flood of bull shit that continues to come out of his mouth.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

If I ever met Stern in real life I would shake his hand, look him right in the eye, and politely ask him if I could use my dick as a cork to stop the flood of bull shit that comes out of his mouth.

He really is a crummy man. A 3rd NBA team CANNOT flourish in So Cali unless it were San Diego and even then I have my doubts.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

And there were times during the playoffs where Drexler was absolutely worthless. Drexler was definitely on his way down when he joined the Rockets.

Sorry but I disagree. No way would the third best SG of all time play that badly.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

I don't know how you blame Shaq for that. or Penny. I mean, I agree with you if the team fell apart, but it was only Nick Anderson. And I'm not saying Orlando would have won, but I do wonder.

I mean, if your 3rd best player is going to go from awesome 3 point threat, good scorer and decent defender, to a pile of playdough (play-doe?) in a matter of seconds and suddenly stay that way for the entire series, not much you can do. Like I said, I still have not witnessed an individual sink so quickly.

But that Houston team was built nicely. beaslty Dream, Drexler still awesome, Horry who was just awesome on defense and clutchness, Cassell/Smith, etc.

Dude, there's something I don't understand. How the hell do you get SWEPT?

A sweep is a big deal. That's more than just your third option falling apart.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Dude, there's something I don't understand. How the hell do you get SWEPT?

A sweep is a big deal. That's more than just your third option falling apart.

Knicks-Age could help ya there.

 

[bluemax]

ughhh

I was talking to my friend about this. He's a life long Lakers fan etc etc and he currently works in Orange County. He says that a lot of the people he works around, who grew up in and around Orange County would actually prefer to have their own team over the Lakers.

I always just assumed people would prefer to remain Lakers fans, but I guess there are enough people out there who want to be separate from Los Angeles, that they'd be okay with it.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Dude, there's something I don't understand. How the hell do you get SWEPT?

A sweep is a big deal. That's more than just your third option falling apart.

A young team can fall apart quick when facing any little adversity. I saw it with the Del Harris Laker teams. One day you're looking like world beaters and destroying a 60 win Sonic team in the semis, and then all of a sudden you are getting swept by the Jazz.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Knicks-Age could help ya there.

KNICKS TIME actually won 3 games against the 1994 NBA champions.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

KNICKS TIME actually won 3 games against the 1994 NBA champions.

Lets be honest, that Knicks time is long dead.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

A young team can fall apart quick when facing any little adversity. I saw it with the Del Harris Laker teams. One day you're looking like world beaters and destroying a 60 win Sonic team in the semis, and then all of a sudden you are getting swept by the Jazz.

Well, that's the point I was making. They WERE a worse team. Had it not been Nick Anderson, a slip up somewhere else would have screwed them.

 

[lawlohwhat]

You're obsession with Hakeem has nothing to do with you being a Rockets homer, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And who is having the hissy fit with someone disagreeing that their idol being the best center of all time. What are you, 5 years old?

Hakeem was my favorite player when I was a kid. Had his shoes, even though they sucked, had a lifesized poster in my room, went to see the rockets when they were in town in '96, followed the rockets, etc. It was fucking great seeing clyde go from the blazers to the rockets to win a championship.

Yes, nobody ever won it with less of a supporting cast, and if you aren't a post player in rec games, you'll never have an appreciation for how difficult it is to develop good footwork. I'm 6'5 and it's hard enough to pull off a jab step and spin to the baseline and basically shoot it from behind the backboard. In the rare cases that I'm able to pull it off, I'll get a guaranteed "OH SHIT SON", and Hakeem did that multiple times per night. Obviously, he puts all modern centers to shame, shit on shaq, shit on david robinson, took the rockets to the finals in his second year, was a defensive beast and all of that. Fuck, the man even had a crossover that he'd bust out every now and then.

I'm just saying that it's kind of a stretch to proclaim him as the goat center without being hyperbolic. When you get to that level of greatness, it's more of a gradient than a strict #1-#5 list at that position. You can certainly make an argument for it, but stating it as fact and not being open to the kareems, wilts, russels, and maybe even shaqs is kind of stupid.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Well, that's the point I was making. They WERE a worse team. Had it not been Nick Anderson, a slip up somewhere else would have screwed them.

True. Jeffrey retiring and ending the Bulls dynasty early thrust them into the top spot probably before they were ready.

 

[Black Mamba]

Dude, there's something I don't understand. How the hell do you get SWEPT?

A sweep is a big deal. That's more than just your third option falling apart.

Problem is that Orlando team had no depth outside the PG/SG spot with Shaw. They were a pure 6 man team. When Nick Anderson fell apart, the team was destroyed. it had no one to replace him. Anthonie fucking Bowie was his backup.

Shaq, Penny, and grant played like 43-44 mpg in that series. Anderson was up there til game 4.

Meanwhile, Cassell was coming off the bench and dropping 30 on em.


PS: Shaq never got into real foul trouble. Good thing too, anyone remember his backup? Jeff Turner (I didn't remember this either, looked it up).

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Hakeem was my favorite player when I was a kid. Had his shoes, even though they sucked, had a lifesized poster in my room, went to see the rockets when they were in town in '96, followed the rockets, etc. It was fucking great seeing clyde go from the blazers to the rockets to win a championship.

Yes, nobody ever won it with less of a supporting cast, and if you aren't a post player in rec games, you'll never have an appreciation for how difficult it is to develop good footwork. I'm 6'5 and it's hard enough to pull off a jab step and spin to the baseline and basically shoot it from behind the backboard. In the rare cases that I'm able to pull it off, I'll get a guaranteed "OH SHIT SON", and Hakeem did that multiple times per night. Obviously, he puts all modern centers to shame, shit on shaq, shit on david robinson, took the rockets to the finals in his second year, was a defensive beast and all of that. Fuck, the man even had a crossover that he'd bust out every now and then.

I'm just saying that it's kind of a stretch to proclaim him as the goat center without being hyperbolic. When you get to that level of greatness, it's more of a gradient than a strict #1-#5 list at that position. You can certainly make an argument for it, but stating it as fact and not being open to the kareems, wilts, russels, and maybe even shaqs is kind of stupid.

My point exactly. Its the same thing with MJ homers who act as though its a simple fact that he is the GOAT.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Hakeem was my favorite player when I was a kid. Had his shoes, even though they sucked, had a lifesized poster in my room, went to see the rockets when they were in town in '96, followed the rockets, etc. It was fucking great seeing clyde go from the blazers to the rockets to win a championship.

Yes, nobody ever won it with less of a supporting cast, and if you aren't a post player in rec games, you'll never have an appreciation for how difficult it is to develop good footwork. I'm 6'5 and it's hard enough to pull off a jab step and spin to the baseline and basically shoot it from behind the backboard. In the rare cases that I'm able to pull it off, I'll get a guaranteed "OH SHIT SON", and Hakeem did that multiple times per night. Obviously, he puts all modern centers to shame, shit on shaq, shit on david robinson, took the rockets to the finals in his second year, was a defensive beast and all of that. Fuck, the man even had a crossover that he'd bust out every now and then.

I'm just saying that it's kind of a stretch to proclaim him as the goat center without being hyperbolic. When you get to that level of greatness, it's more of a gradient than a strict #1-#5 list at that position. You can certainly make an argument for it, but stating it as fact and not being open to the kareems, wilts, russels, and maybe even shaqs is kind of stupid.

You were mad at my "Best. Center. Ever" comment? Oh, well he is for me. I just get furious when someone tries to think that kind of argument is somehow irrational and all the double standards in play when people knock him down a tier.

If someone brings up the "Jordan left" argument, that's just so.... ugh...

Honestly, you can make a case for Kareem too. But I hate it when people put him a tier below.

That's just my schtick.

 

[Black Mamba]

A young team can fall apart quick when facing any little adversity. I saw it with the Del Harris Laker teams. One day you're looking like world beaters and destroying a 60 win Sonic team in the semis, and then all of a sudden you are getting swept by the Jazz.

Why bring this up? I was so crushed after that series. the way they disposed of the Sonics, then to get creamed by the Jazz...

Game 1 vs Jazz was the first game I ever watched on a big screen TV, too. Painful memory...