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2011 NBA Playoffs |OT| Don't Compare Refs to Cigarettes

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C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
SUPREME1 said:
Luckily for us who care enough to search, there are stats, footage (sometimes), eye witness testimony from knowledgeable people, articles, etc.


For instance:

Babe Ruth, GOAT or not, you know he's at least in the mix because __________ .
Click to expand...

Apparently Willie Mays nor Hank Aaron can be in the mix for those of us who are 35 or younger.
 
C

charsace

Member
dream said:
I kind of see his point though. Highlights and statlines don't give you the proper context.
Click to expand...
I've watched games of all the guys on that tier list. Before classic sports was bought out by ESPN it was a local channel in NYC that was hosted by Clyde Frazier and they would show classic games all day.
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
LovingSteam said:
Yep. And its not like there is something called Youtube where footage of these players survives. Nope. It's not as though we have records of their play that survive today. Totally right man.
Click to expand...

Has anyone on this board actually watched a full season's worth of 70's basketball games?

Obviously stats and records and second-hand accounts and highlight reels are useful, but Gigglepoo does have a pretty good point about comparing players across eras, especially amongst a (relatively) young demographic like this board.

Now when somebody like Dean Smith says that Kareem was the greatest player he's ever seen go through college, that adds weight on top of all of the other accolades.
 
dream

dream

Member
LovingSteam said:
You do realize that full games of these players survive, right? Whether its ESPN Classics airing them, Youtube, etc. Entire series still survive.
Click to expand...

I know, but it's still historical footage at that point. You don't really get the same frame of reference because you didn't get to see the series unfold live, where you live and die on every point scored.

It's like, I dunno, kids seeing 9/11 footage 10 years from now won't be as affected by it as our generation was because we lived through the fallout.

Fuck, what a horrible analogy.
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
Sho_Nuff82 said:
Has anyone on this board actually watched a full season's worth of 70's basketball games?

Obviously stats and records and second-hand accounts and highlight reels are useful, but Gigglepoo does have a pretty good point about comparing players across eras, especially amongst a (relatively) young demographic like this board.

Now when somebody like Dean Smith says that Kareem was the greatest player he's ever seen go through college, that adds weight on top of all of the other accolades.
Click to expand...

I guarantee that non Lakers fans havent' seen an entire season of Magic Johnson having played. They have seen him in the finals, and the few times when his games were on CBS/NBC. Are they not eligible to have him on their GOAT list?
 
P

punkypine

Member
Adam Blade said:
So, do Philly fans have any interest in sending Iggy to the Clips for say, Kaman + change?
Click to expand...
depends on the new CBA, but if it means we can try to sign someone else in a few years, I would be all for it. I dont know kaman's contract and stuff, he's worthless
 
T

thekad

Banned
SUPREME1 said:
Not biting here... BUUUT, name 19 who did it better.


GO!!!!
Click to expand...

no order:
jordan, dream, kareem, wilt, dr. j, bird, magic, russell, shaq, duncan, west, oscar, the malones, frazier, havlicek, kg, baylor, d.rob, lebron
 
S

SUPREME1

Banned
Sho_Nuff82 said:
Has anyone on this board actually watched a full season's worth of 70's basketball games?

Obviously stats and records and second-hand accounts and highlight reels are useful, but Gigglepoo does have a pretty good point about comparing players across eras, especially amongst a (relatively) young demographic like this board.

Now when somebody like Dean Smith says that Kareem was the greatest player he's ever seen go through college, that adds weight on top of all of the other accolades.
Click to expand...



This is probably the method which carries most weight besides actual stats.

That's why when shitty BSPN sports "journalists" hate on a certain player for no other reason than to hate, it taints the memory/opinion/legacy of that player for future generations.


I loved watching the NFL's Top 100 Players of All Time because you saw people explain what made those players so special.

Then you see highlights and you better understand how talented they really were.
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
thekad said:
no order:
jordan, dream, kareem, wilt, dr. j, bird, magic, russell, shaq, duncan, west, oscar, the malones, frazier, havlicek, kg, baylor, d.rob, lebron
Click to expand...

Sorry, you can't include Kareem, Wilt, DRJ, Russell, West, Oscar, Frazier, Havlicek, and Baylor since you never saw them play. Therefore Kobe is in your top 10 GOAT list. Congratulations.
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
LovingSteam said:
I guarantee that non Lakers fans havent' seen an entire season of Magic Johnson having played. They have seen him in the finals, and the few times when his games were on CBS/NBC. Are they not eligible to have him on their GOAT list?
Click to expand...

I never said they weren't eligible. I was just pointing out that Giggles had a point. I've never watched 40 consecutive minutes of Wilt Chamberlain basketball in my life - my only argument for his placement on a list of any kind would be stats and trophies, two things we critique people for leaning on too much in this very thread. Ironic in a way.
 
A

Adam Blade

WWKC
punkypine said:
depends on the new CBA, but if it means we can try to sign someone else in a few years, I would be all for it. I dont know kaman's contract and stuff, he's worthless
Click to expand...

He was an All-Star just 2 years ago!
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
LovingSteam said:
Sorry, you can't include Kareem, Wilt, DRJ, Russell, West, Oscar, Frazier, Havlicek, and Baylor since you never saw them play. Therefore Kobe is in your top 10 GOAT list. Congratulations.
Click to expand...
I don't know, he's pretty senile and probably suffers from dementia. That makes him at least 60 years old.
 
T

thekad

Banned
teabag.jpg


pull_here_2.jpg


can't get enough
 
dream

dream

Member
20 years from now, someone is going to use Melo's 42 point game in the Celtics series as an example of why he is or isn't an all time great. They're going to look up the players that were on the Knicks roster in 2011 and the Hall of Famers on the Celtics team and use that to determine why it was such an amazing performance. They might even pull up videos of some shots he made in that game. But they won't have the same perspective on that game that we have because we actually watched, lived, and experienced it.
 
T

thekad

Banned
dream said:
20 years from now, someone is going to use Melo's 42 point game in the Celtics series as an example of why he is or isn't an all time great. They're going to look up the players that were on the Knicks roster in 2011 and the Hall of Famers on the Celtics team and use that to determine why it was such an amazing performance. They might even pull up videos of some shots he made in that game. But they won't have the same perspective on that game that we have because we actually watched, lived, and experienced it.
Click to expand...

They'll know he played for the D'antoni Knicks. And that will tell the whole story.
 
G

giri

Member
Adam Blade said:
So, do Philly fans have any interest in sending Iggy to the Clips for say, Kaman + change?
Click to expand...
That would be a good trade for the clips. Would make the play offs you'd think with that roster.
 
S

SUPREME1

Banned
Sanjuro Tsubaki said:
We are still doing ranking players game?

The fact I see Tier 1: Magic and Tier 2: Bird makes it already invalid.
Click to expand...


Magic has the edge over Bird in head to head Finals victories on two levels.

: )
 
S

Sanjuro

Member
SUPREME1 said:
Magic has the edge over Bird in head to head Finals victories on two levels.

: )
Click to expand...
Rings don't equal better by default. I know Laker fans have their priorities, but I always saw them as equals.
 
T

The Stealth Fox

Junior Member
IC, I missed your post listing all of Kareem's accolades. Here's Hakeems:

Career highlights and awards
2× NBA Champion (1994–1995)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1994)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1994–1995)
12× NBA All-Star (1985–1990, 1992–1997)
2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993–1994)
6× All-NBA First Team (1987–1989, 1993–1994, 1997)
3× All-NBA Second Team (1986, 1990, 1996)
3× All-NBA Third Team (1991, 1995, 1999)
5× All-Defensive First Team (1987–1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
4× All-Defensive Second Team (1985, 1991, 1996–1997)
NBA All-Rookie Team (1985)

Yeah, sure Kareem won 6 MVPs, but honestly he was on the best teams in basketball year in and year out, AND he had a longer career.

Yes, he was more durable, but that's not really a factor if you've played longer than 10 seasons. If you play awhile, you're durable. Some people hold together longer than others. Now if someone can play a billion vs a million seasons, well, does it really matter? Durability isn't really the player's fault.

I just don't understand that given his play and what he's done, you can't at least consider him on the same level, and at least allow a rational argument to be made that he is the best.

I'm not trying to knock down Kareem at all here. He has every right to be in the conversation, but both Hakeem or Kareem.... there will never be players like them ever again.

Kareem had his skyhook but Hakeem destroyed people with soccer skills on a basketball court.

I'll just make this my last post on the subject because I don't want to derail the topic anymore.
 
N

numble

Member
The Stealth Fox said:
I'm sure you were saying this when he was winning you championships.
Click to expand...
People were complaining about fat and lazy Shaq all the time. The reason why fans took different sides in the Kobe/Shaq rift.
 
G

giri

Member
Sanjuro Tsubaki said:
Rings don't equal better by default. I know Laker fans have their priorities, but I always saw them as equals.
Click to expand...
Yes rings do mean better. Robert Horry, greatest douche to ever live.
 
S

SUPREME1

Banned
Sanjuro Tsubaki said:
Rings don't equal better by default. I know Laker fans have their priorities, but I always saw them as equals.
Click to expand...


I was kidding. One was the ying to the other's yang.

They made each other legendary.
 
S

SUPREME1

Banned
numble said:
People were complaining about fat and lazy Shaq all the time. The reason why fans took different sides in the Kobe/Shaq rift.
Click to expand...


This.

I recall one season where he missed a ton of games due to an abdominal strain. I couldn't believe that shit.

If Shaq had stayed in better shape, he'd have had a better motor (energy/endurance etc) due to not carrying so much weight, and he'd have stayed at his peak a lot longer.

Same with Kobe even now. When he does some shit that pisses me off, I call him names I wouldn't even call LeBastard.
Because I care. <3

I love Shaq for all he did in L.A., and for being a big dumb goofy jackass.

I also hated him for a bunch other reasons.
 
T

The Stealth Fox

Junior Member
SUPREME1 said:
This.

I recall one season where he missed a ton of games due to an abdominal strain. I couldn't believe that shit.

If Shaq had stayed in better shape, he'd have had a better motor (energy/endurance etc) due to not carrying so much weight, and he'd have stayed at his peak a lot longer.

Same with Kobe even now. When he does some shit that pisses me off, I call him names I wouldn't even call LeBastard.
Because I care. <3

I love Shaq for all he did in L.A., and for being a big dumb goofy jackass.

I also hated him for a bunch other reasons.
Click to expand...

I know we go at each other a lot, but you know, I kind of respect you as a fan for rooting for the TEAM, not the players.

Like, if you had Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones on your team, you'd still stick around.
 
B

Boombloxer

Member
Sanjuro Tsubaki said:
We are still doing ranking players game?

The fact I see Tier 1: Magic and Tier 2: Bird makes it already invalid.
Click to expand...

Incorrect.

I saw the Dream footage earlier, and he's still got it. I think that people forget how versatile he was defensively, he's like 8th all-time in steals.

The reason why fans took different sides in the Kobe/Shaq rift.
Click to expand...

Yea, my main gripe with Shaq was always the summers of Good Livin', he earned them, but eventually that shit cost us.

Yes rings do mean better. Robert Horry, greatest douche to ever live.
Click to expand...

1272069741077.jpg
 
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