Support NeoGAF

[Black Mamba]

WTF? How about some class, Grizzlies. Sure, it would mean winning the first playoff series ever, which is great, but it still means nothing in the grand scheme of things. :-|

I don't think they actually made those hats. It's just a figure of speech.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Nope. Go away. Just because someone has 7000 championships doesn't make him the best player ever.

Kareem was as good defensively and better offensively. Won a championship with an aged Big O. Won a couple more championships as the best player on the Lakers. Hakeem is top 3-5 center no doubt but #1? No. Sorry that hurts your feelings.

 

[reilo]

Kareem was as good defensively and better offensively. Won a championship with an aged Big O. Won a couple more championships as the best player on the Lakers. Hakeem is top 3-5 center no doubt but #1? No. Sorry that hurts your feelings.

Yeah, that damn Kareem had it tough. He only won with Oscar Robertson. He only won with Magic, Worthy, Byron, et al. What a tough time he had.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Kareem was as good defensively and better offensively. Won a championship with an aged Big O. Won a couple more championships as the best player on the Lakers. Hakeem is top 3-5 center no doubt but #1? No. Sorry that hurts your feelings.

Hakeem had the footwork of a guard, the size of a center, and cleaned house with MVP, DPOY, and Finals MVP all in one year, and embarrassed the next MVP on his way to another title.

And no, he wasn't as good as Hakeem defensively, and I'd say Hakeem is the more offensively versatile player.

 

[verbum]

The fact that it would take an article like this to get the majority of them heartless, gutless punks motivated is sad in itself.

I still say anything less than the ECFs should result in nuking this core.

That's why I am lukewarm, the corporate owners just want to keep the TV money rolling in and do not care about getting any further than the first or second round of the playoffs.
But it could be we the fans are holding them back. Outside of Atlanta, you run into very few residents of Georgia who know or care about the Hawks.

 

[numble]

Kareem never got to play with a 7 time champion.

 

[BatiGOOOOOOL]

I don't think they actually made those hats. It's just a figure of speech.

You're probably right. I read in SpursTalk(not to be trusted btw) that they were distributed to the people at Fedex Arena watching the game, but didn't read it through. My apologies to the Grizzlies and their fans.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Kareem never got to play with a 7 time champion.

Only argument against Hakeem. Kareem's supporting cast was never as legendary as Hip-check Horry.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Yeah, that damn Kareem had it tough. He only won with Oscar Robertson. He only won with Magic, Worthy, Byron, et al. What a tough time he had.

An Oscar who was way past his prime. Yea, ok. And in terms of supporting cast, his supporting cast sure helped Hakeem win a couple. In case you forget the key 3s that his supporting cast made against Phoenix 2 years in a row when they were down 2-0 both years. Hakeem kicked it out enough but his guards sure helped him. Just as it was their job to do.

I am a huge fan of Hakeem but I love how people argue as though his supporting cast stunk.

 

[diehard]

I love it when RR9 busts out the dream shake. Can't wait till he pulls that on Lebron.

Too bad he can't learn the Dream jumpshot and Dream freethrow.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

An Oscar who was way past his prime. Yea, ok. And in terms of supporting cast, his supporting cast sure helped Hakeem win a couple. In case you forget the key 3s that his supporting cast made against Phoenix 2 years in a row when they were down 2-0 both years. Hakeem kicked it out enough but his guards sure helped him. Just as it was their job to do.

I am a huge fan of Hakeem but I love how people argue as though his supporting cast stunk.

Oh yeah, multiple all star Kenny Smith and Mario Elie. No one's saying that they were the worst players ever, but they sure as hell weren't great. I mean, keeping that supporting cast together for one more year got them swept in the first round by the Supes in '96.

Apparently having Hakeem and six Jason Kaponos on your team is an amazing supporting cast.

And old fart Barkley got them to the WCF in '97.

You just value numbers over actual basketball play. OH HE WON 85000 CHAMPIONSHIPS. That's why you worship that chump Bill Russell.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Oh yeah, multiple all star Kenny Smith and Mario Elie. No one's saying that they were the worst players ever, but they sure as hell weren't great. I mean, keeping that supporting cast together for one more year got them swept in the first round by the Supes in '96.

And old fart Barkley got them to the WCF in '97.

And lets look at the competition Hakeem faced in 1994-1995. A league without Jordan. A league whose best team in the East was a Knicks team that barely scraped by a Jordanless Bulls and a Magic team who had a 3rd year Shaq and a 2nd year Penny. Lets see the competition that Kareem and the Lakers faced in the early to mid 80s before Magic took over. Yea, much better competition. And if you want to bring out that Kareem didn't win without stars, Hakeem never won when Magic, Bird, Isaiah, and Jordan were leading their respective teams to titles. It took all of those individuals having left the game before Hakeem won his first.

 

[Darkman M]

Only on gaf you hear shit like Kareem wasn't the best to ever do it at his position.

 

[charsace]

ehhhhhhhh

hakeem was incredible, but don't be hyperbolic.

Want to knife fight? The Dream is the best center ever.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

And lets look at the competition Hakeem faced in 1994-1995. A league without Jordan. A league whose best team in the East was a Knicks team that barely scraped by a Jordanless Bulls and a Magic team who had a 3rd year Shaq and a 2nd year Penny. Lets see the competition that Kareem and the Lakers faced in the early to mid 80s before Magic took over. Yea, much better competition. And if you want to bring out that Kareem didn't win without stars, Hakeem never won when Magic, Bird, Isaiah, and Jordan were leading their respective teams to titles. It took all of those individuals having left the game before Hakeem won his first.

Yes, because his team was shitty. Injured Ralph Sampson and garbage. Get over yourself, troll.

That's not his fault. He did everything for his team. Assisted, rebounded, blocked shots, and routinely put the team on his back when they were utterly incompetent.

Nope, just because he didn't have the best players ever on his team, and only won two championships because Jordan had gambling issues.

WORST. PLAYER. EVER.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Only on gaf you hear shit like Kareem wasn't the best to ever do it at his position.

Yes, because the average basketball fan is an idiot and the Lakers got the most publicity because they had an all-star cast every year.

This is about real basketball play, not teams that lazily coasted their way to titles while half the league was filled with white people that couldn't hold a candle to the Lakers or Celtics.

At the end of the day, the average sports fans will take the great player who has 8000 championships over the one who has 2000.

But winning more than one says more than enough about your career, IMO

 

[charsace]

IMO Hakeem and Bill Walton before the serious injuries were the best centers to ever.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Only on gaf you hear shit like Kareem wasn't the best to ever do it at his position.

Russell is clearly better as is Wilt.

I was thinking that the Jazz could make the playoffs next season, but then Rodeo reminded me how terrible Al's and Harris's offseason conditioning is by saying how out of shape players were in the last lockout shortened season. I've been envisioning Harris missing all of training camp and 40% of next season with hamstring pulls and being fat and Jonny Flynn being the starting PG for next season. Now I'm less excited for next season.

 

[Darkman M]

Yes, because the average basketball fan is an idiot and the Lakers got the most publicity because they had an all-star cast every year.

This is about real basketball play, not teams that lazily coasted their way to titles while half the league was filled with white people that couldn't hold a candle to the Lakers or Celtics.

Fuck all of that, just look at the numbers,Career accomplishments, etc. Shaq vs Hakeem is a better argument and even then Shaq has accomplished more.

 

[dream]

I hope none of you ever vacuum your head after getting a haircut.

 

[reilo]

And lets look at the competition Hakeem faced in 1994-1995. A league without Jordan. A league whose best team in the East was a Knicks team that barely scraped by a Jordanless Bulls and a Magic team who had a 3rd year Shaq and a 2nd year Penny. Lets see the competition that Kareem and the Lakers faced in the early to mid 80s before Magic took over. Yea, much better competition. And if you want to bring out that Kareem didn't win without stars, Hakeem never won when Magic, Bird, Isaiah, and Jordan were leading their respective teams to titles. It took all of those individuals having left the game before Hakeem won his first.

Hakeem took the Rockets to the finals in his sophomore year...

If my memory is correct, the Rockets beat some team called the Lakers 4-1 in the WCF.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Fuck all of that, just look at the numbers,Carter accomplishments, etc. Shaw bs Hakeem is a better argument and even then Shaq has accomplished more.

And there you have it folks.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Yes, because his team was shitty. Injured Ralph Sampson and garbage. Get over yourself, troll.

That's not his fault. He did everything for his team. Assisted, rebounded, blocked shots, and routinely put the team on his back when they were utterly incompetent.

Nope, just because he didn't have the best players ever on his team, and only won two championships because Jordan had gambling issues.

WORST. PLAYER. EVER.

Yea, totally argued he is the worst player ever. Dumbass. I suppose MJ shouldn't be in the discussion for best ever since he had the best wing defender of all time, the greatest coach of all time, and one of the best rebounders ever for 3 of his titles. Hakeem as I said is a top 3-5 center but the fact remains he didn't win until his 10th season. After MJ, Magic, Bird, Isaiah had left. He had one of the most dominating and best seasons of all time in 1994 but we're not talking about 2 seasons here, we're talking about the better PLAYER. Give me Kareem. As good as a defender as Hakeem and a better offensive player.

Kareem rebounded. Kareem blocked shots. Kareem put the team on his back repeatedly and routinely. Want to see what Kareem had throughout the 70s in LA before Magic arrived? Dude singlehandedly took that team on his back year in and year out. Let me know what Hakeem did before Michael left and after Michael returned. Oh yea. Nothing.

Hakeem took the Rockets to the finals in his sophomore year...

Hakeem did? So he didn't have help from Ralph Samson? Oh wow, wasn't aware of that.

 

[reilo]

Hakeem did? So he didn't have help from Ralph Samson? Oh wow, wasn't aware of that.

Are you saying that Ralph Sampson was the best player on that Rockets team?

What about when the Rockets beat the Lakers 4-1 in WCF (despite the Lakers winning 11 more games that year)? Was that Ralph Sampson's doing?

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Yea, totally argued he is the worst player ever. Dumbass. I suppose MJ shouldn't be in the discussion for best ever since he had the best wing defender of all time, the greatest coach of all time, and one of the best rebounders ever for 3 of his titles. Hakeem as I said is a top 3-5 center but the fact remains he didn't win until his 10th season. After MJ, Magic, Bird, Isaiah had left. He had one of the most dominating and best seasons of all time in 1994 but we're not talking about 2 seasons here, we're talking about the better PLAYER. Give me Kareem. As good as a defender as Hakeem and a better offensive player.

Kareem rebounded. Kareem blocked shots. Kareem put the team on his back repeatedly and routinely. Want to see what Kareem had throughout the 70s in LA before Magic arrived? Dude singlehandedly took that team on his back year in and year out. Let me know what Hakeem did before Michael left and after Michael returned. Oh yea. Nothing.



Hakeem did? So he didn't have help from Ralph Samson? Oh wow, wasn't aware of that.

Oh, the old "Michael left" card. How original. Yeah, well Magic couldn't win one against Michael either. Must mean he's garbage.

Face it, you're a homer. You give your team and all your players all the excuses in the world because they historically defined your childhood because, you, like the rest of America, turned on the TV to watch the Lakers play.

Winning a billion championships does not define the greatest player. Winning a few and then letting your dominance in ALL aspects of the game should speak for itself.

And Dream's versatility on both ends of the floor speaks volumes. I have never seen a big man with footwork like his. He transplanted his soccer skills into basketball.

That's why everyone wants to train with him. That's why players look up to him. You wanna learn footwork? You go to Dream.

 

[reilo]

I love that we can't bring up Magic, Worthy, Byron, Lucas, Cooper, et al., but the moment I mention "what about 1986 WCF?", Lakers fans drop "but he had Ralph Sampson!"

Yeah, thanks. That evens it out.

EDIT: Not to mention that "Hakeem never did it against top flight competition", but 1986 don't count cause Hakeem had Ralph fucking Sampson.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Are you saying that Ralph Sampson was the best player on that Rockets team?

What about when the Rockets beat the Lakers 4-1 in WCF (despite the Lakers winning 11 more games that year)? Was that Ralph Sampson's doing?

That year Ralph avg 22ppg and 11rpg. Hakeem avg 21ppg and 11rpg. Yep, Ralph wasn't vital to their success at all. Not like it was Ralph's last second shot that carried them past the Lakers. And btw, it wasn't Hakeem's rookie year, it was his second year in the league. His rookie year was 85, they went to the finals in 86.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Oh, the old "Michael left" card. How original. Yeah, well Magic couldn't win one against Michael either. Must mean he's garbage.

Face it, you're a homer. You give your team and all your players all the excuses in the world because they historically defined your childhood because, you, like the rest of America, turned on the TV to watch the Lakers play.

Winning a billion championships does not define the greatest player. Winning a few and then letting your dominance in ALL aspects of the game should speak for itself.

And Dream's versatility on both ends of the floor speaks volumes. I have never seen a big man with footwork like his. He transplanted his soccer skills into basketball.

That's why everyone wants to train with him. That's why players look up to him. You wanna learn footwork? You go to Dream.

You're obsession with Hakeem has nothing to do with you being a Rockets homer, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And who is having the hissy fit with someone disagreeing that their idol being the best center of all time. What are you, 5 years old?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

You have to admit that the Lakers team the Rockets beat was pretty damned stacked. Virtually the same team won the championship the following season.

That year Ralph avg 22ppg and 11rpg. Hakeem avg 21ppg and 11rpg. Yep, Ralph wasn't vital to their success at all. Not like it was Ralph's last second shot that carried them past the Lakers. And btw, it wasn't Hakeem's rookie year, it was his second year in the league. His rookie year was 85, they went to the finals in 86.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1986.html

Hakeem: 23.5pts/11.5reb/2.0ast/2.0stl/3.5 bpg 24.2 PER

Ralph: 18.9/11.1/3.6/1.3/1.6 16.9 PER

Hakeem playoffs: 26.9pts 11.8reb 2.0ast 25.6 PER

Ralph playoffs: 20.0pts 10.8reb 4.0ast 18.9 PER

 

[The Stealth Fox]

That year Ralph avg 22ppg and 11rpg. Hakeem avg 21ppg and 11rpg. Yep, Ralph wasn't vital to their success at all. Not like it was Ralph's last second shot that carried them past the Lakers. And btw, it wasn't Hakeem's rookie year, it was his second year in the league. His rookie year was 85, they went to the finals in 86.

So, basically, you lied. You said he never did it against top flight competition. He did. They beat the Lakers 4-1 in the WCF. And it was just him and Ralph. No third or fourth cog. Just them two.

 

[reilo]

That year Ralph avg 22ppg and 11rpg. Hakeem avg 21ppg and 11rpg. Yep, Ralph wasn't vital to their success at all. Not like it was Ralph's last second shot that carried them past the Lakers.

Eh? When the Rockets went to the finals in 1986, Hakeem was the leading scorer and rebounder that year for the Rockets. Wtf are you looking at?

And btw, it wasn't Hakeem's rookie year, it was his second year in the league. His rookie year was 85, they went to the finals in 86.

That's what I said?

Hakeem took the Rockets to the finals in his sophomore year...

 

[The Stealth Fox]

You're obsession with Hakeem has nothing to do with you being a Rockets homer, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And who is having the hissy fit with someone disagreeing that their idol being the best center of all time. What are you, 5 years old?

Yes, I am obviously 5 years old. That means I was born in 2006. Herp Derp. You got me bro.

My point is that you definitely don't apply your standards consistently when it comes to other players.

Unless you only want to consider NUMBER of championships. Then you do apply your standards consistently. It's just a stupid standard then.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Eh? When the Rockets went to the finals in 1986, Hakeem was the leading scorer and rebounder that year for the Rockets. Wtf are you looking at?

That's what I said?

You said rookie year. That edit button surely is a nice thing to have, isn't it.

Yes, I am obviously 5 years old. That means I was born in 2006. Herp Derp. You got me bro.

My point is that you definitely don't apply your standards consistently when it comes to other players.

LOL!! I find it hilarious that you call me a homer when you have been behaving as such more than anybody in this particular conversation. You're behaving as though I called your mom a whore or something. Boo freaking hoo, someone disagrees with me that Hakeem is the best center. You're acting as though I labeled him as a mid tier player when I did no such thing. I routinely have posted videos of Hakeem doing his thing here, mentioning how amazing he was. I happen to think that Kareem was a better center and my reasons are perfectly valid. You happen to disagree, boo freaking hoo.

 

[Darkman M]

Drexler>>>>>Kobe

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Drexler>>>>>Kobe

LOL, I hated Drexler's shot. That guy who was saying that he was better than Kobe was lulz.

 

[reilo]

You said rookie year. That edit button surely is a nice thing to have, isn't it.

I obviously misspoke and quickly corrected my mistake, but the overall point stands, don't it?

And you're the one that confused 1985 with 1986. I simply misspoke (miswrote?). You're the one thinking that Sampson lead the Rockets in points and rebounds in 1986 when they went to the finals.

But of course, 1986 doesn't count because Hakeem had Ralph Fucking Sampson everybody!

 

[Darkman M]

LOL, I hated Drexler's shot. That guy who was saying that he was better than Kobe was lulz.

I'm just lighten the mood, Hakeem was one of my favorite players to watch, I won't degrade the guy.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Here's how I use the championship statistic:

I think it says a lot of you never won one in your career, especially if you're a star player. Teams get older and players retire and stuff, you have to get at least ONE as the main guy.

Once you go past two though, it's kind of irrelevant, because that often has to do with management and purely situational factors.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I obviously misspoke and quickly corrected my mistake, but the overall point stands, don't it?

And you're the one that confused 1985 with 1986. I simply misspoke (miswrote?). You're the one thinking that Sampson lead the Rockets in points and rebounds in 1986 when they went to the finals.

But of course, 1986 doesn't count because Hakeem had Ralph Fucking Sampson everybody!

And you wouldn't have admitted that you edited had I not called you out, would you. Instead you would have just continued acting as though I misread what you wrote. I mentioned 1985 stats because that is the year you first mentioned. I suppose that we should agree then that LeBron James taking the Cavs to the finals and being swept proves something as well? Hakeem AND Ralph took their team to the finals where they lost. From 1987 to 1993 what did he do? Nothing.

 

[SUPREME1]

Nope. Go away. Just because someone has 7000 championships doesn't make him the best player ever.

Once you get past two, IMO, any additional ones you win are purely due to situation and management.

Yeah, all Kareem ever did was win a few rings. No other reasons to consider him the greatest center of all time. None.


Kareem Abdul Jabbar

6x Champion
6x MVP
19x All-Star
2x Finals MVPs
RotY
10x All NBA First Team
5x All NBA Second Team
5x NBA All-Defensive First Team
6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team
Points - 38,387
Rebounds - 17,440
Blocks - 3,189


"But he played a bazillion years etc"

Oh that's right, I forgot to add GOD-tier longevity to the list.

Also, Skyhook > Dream Shuffle




Yeah, I guess he did just won a couple of rings. Kareem = Meh.

 

[SamuraiX-]

I'd take The Dream over Snaq (if both were in their prime) any day of the week if I was gonna build my team around one of them.

 

[reilo]

And you wouldn't have admitted that you edited had I not called you out, would you. Instead you would have just continued acting as though I misread what you wrote.

Eh? I clearly talked about the finals year in every post. Me originally saying "rookie" instead of "sophomore" is irrelevant. Why you're having a hard-on over that, I don't know.

I mentioned 1985 stats because that is the year you first mentioned. I suppose that we should agree then that LeBron James taking the Cavs to the finals and being swept proves something as well? Hakeem AND Ralph took their team to the finals where they lost. From 1987 to 1993 what did he do? Nothing.

Love the double standard:

Kareem rebounded. Kareem blocked shots. Kareem put the team on his back repeatedly and routinely. Want to see what Kareem had throughout the 70s in LA before Magic arrived? Dude singlehandedly took that team on his back year in and year out.

But when Hakeem did win it all in 1994 it was because there was no MJ, right? What a joke you are.

Let me know what Hakeem did before Michael left and after Michael returned. Oh yea. Nothing.

Just beat the 62-win defending champions in the conference finals in a 5-game route. But that doesn't count because, sorry, he had Ralph Fucking Sampson.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

And you wouldn't have admitted that you edited had I not called you out, would you. Instead you would have just continued acting as though I misread what you wrote. I mentioned 1985 stats because that is the year you first mentioned. I suppose that we should agree then that LeBron James taking the Cavs to the finals and being swept proves something as well? Hakeem AND Ralph took their team to the finals where they lost. From 1987 to 1993 what did he do? Nothing.

SMH. It's like I'm going in circles with you. It's like you wanted him to win championships every year with a supporting cast of Otis Thorpe, Rookie Robert Horry, Rookie Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith, Mario Elie, and Carl Herrera.

Keep moving those goalposts.

 

[punkypine]

Don't forget the clinics he unleashed on shaq and david robinson.

MJ was better, but that's not the comparison. There was 6 years where nobody did anything, doesnt mean that every other player in the league was worthless

 

[The Stealth Fox]

It's okay, Reilo. He'll probably bring up the fact that he had all-star piggybacker Clyde Drexler back in '95.

Or was it that Hakeem rode Clyde Drexler on the way to the 1995 NBA championship? My memory fails me.

 

[reilo]

SMH. It's like I'm going in circles with you. It's like you wanted him to win championships every year with a supporting cast of Otis Thorpe, Rookie Robert Horry, Rookie Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith, Mario Elie, and Carl Herrera.

Keep moving those goalposts.

He's also conveniently ignoring the nothing that Kareem did between 1972 and 1979 before Magic came to save his ass.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

lol I like how the few of you are arguing as though I said Hakeem is worthless. Too funny.

He's also conveniently ignoring the nothing that Kareem did between 1972 and 1979 before Magic came to save his ass.

Really? I ignored that? News to me. I even said that he did everything he could those years. Had he never won another ring do you honestly think he'd be on most peoples GOAT list? No. Do you honestly think that had Hakeem not won in 1994-1995 people would have Hakeem on the GOAT center list? No. Kareem's teams those years didn't do anything just as Hakeems teams those years didn't do anything. Kareem started to win when Magic arrived. Hakeem started to win when Michael left. Congrats.

 

[Black Mamba]

I think it can be argued that Hakeem's peak was as good as anyone's. But Kareem was overall better for a longer time.

 

[SUPREME1]

I'd take The Dream over Snaq (if both were in their prime) any day of the week if I was gonna build my team around one of them.

I would too.

 

[reilo]

lol I like how the few of you are arguing as though I said Hakeem is worthless. Too funny.

Nah, we are just countering your idiotic hypocritical arguments that you are throwing at Hakeem, but conveniently ignoring them when it comes to Kareem. You're just being a hypocrite, that's all.