Black Mamba
Member
Different league, though.
That Philly team would struggle in today's East. This OKC team would win 67 in that '01 conference.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
2012-13 Dec NBA Season lOT2l It Wasn't Me, It Was Uncle Drew
- Thread starter reilo
- Start date
Different league, though.
That Philly team would struggle in today's East. This OKC team would win 67 in that '01 conference.
Psychological Intellect
Banned
it's the media. They'll give it to whoever has the most hype and will provide the best narrative.
Black Mamba
Member
Why did they get tired of giving it to Jordan? Karl Malone was never as close to Jordan as Durant is to Lebron.
GremlinFool
Member
Identical rebounding numbers.
Like practice would ever make Aaron McKie a better player lol
Huh?
Explain this better so I can have a hearty laugh to end 2012 on.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
If only the MVP was for the best player in the league.
Shit's real meaningless. It's Finals MVP or bust.
Psychological Intellect
Banned
It would at least allow him, as a PG who dominated the ball most of the time, know where his teammates are and pass them the ball where they can score even with their limited skills.
4.6 assists vs 3.3 TO is ridiculous.
It's voted by the media, and lots of people in the media are stupid. That's why AI, Karl Malone were MVPs and David Robinson was MVP over Hakeem.
Think of it like the Oscar where many of the voters in the academy are stupid.
I love when people say "Identical rebounding numbers" but at the same time you look at the top rebounders list and see JJ Hickson at #6
there's more to numbers than x per game
You don't need to know where Aaron McKie is on the floor to know that he's going to miss that shit lmao
Westbrook looks off KD likes its cool. This is such an amazingly flawed argument.
YNB averages more APG than Curry and Lawson right now but would you call him a better passer for it since that's your focal point right? Westbrook needs to be real with himself like AI was and just be a SG like God intended.
there's more to numbers than x per game
You don't need to know where Aaron McKie is on the floor to know that he's going to miss that shit lmao
Westbrook looks off KD likes its cool. This is such an amazingly flawed argument.
YNB averages more APG than Curry and Lawson right now but would you call him a better passer for it since that's your focal point right? Westbrook needs to be real with himself like AI was and just be a SG like God intended.
Red Blaster
Member
total rebound %
GremlinFool
Member
The numbers don't support LeBron's defensive prowess. He's always been overrated from my vantage point, and Durant's length and ability to play passing lanes and defend is perpetually underrated.
"More assists" is such an arbitrary point to make. Westbrook is as ball-dominant a point guard as you'll find in this league. Durant's demonstrated his prowess as a playmaker despite having a star player on his team delegated the responsibility to make passes. Durant's averaging a healthy amount of assists (north of four) even though one of his teammates is literally in the top 5 in assists per game in the league.
Similarly arbitrary is LeBron's superiority at "finishing at the rim" when Durant is by far the more efficient scorer.
Black Mamba
Member
In fairness, Eric Snow was the PG for most of the season after they moved AI over to SG.
AI did score 31 on 26 shots though. lol. Like I said, low TS% and efg%.
That team won on defense. McKie and Hill were always good defenders and so was Ratliff who they traded for Mutumbo still at DPOY levels.
McKie shot better than Iverson...
GremlinFool
Member
Miami's second to last in rebounds in the league lmao who else would rebound the ball on that team? (OKC is 8th in the league as a frame of reference).
You mean the same Aaron McKie who shot 47% versus AI's 42% (and 40% the very next year)?
Yeah I know who's going to miss that shit.
GremlinFool
Member
But I suppose you're right, I guess the .4 difference in the amount of rebounds the two get per game is more significant than the 20% chasm in free throw percentage which leads to Durant scoring four more points at the line every game than LeBron?
Tyson shoots 70+%
he needs more jumpshots right, Knicks-age?
Tyson Chandler made most of his baskets around the rim, not jump shots. He knows where he can score efficiently. A good ball handler would look for opportunities for him to score very close to the basket.
Even Aaron McKie had a better assist/TO ratio than AI that year. In fact, he had more assists than AI himself.
Failed argument is failed.
Black Mamba
Member
What's the argument for Iverson over Shaq in 2001?
Simply because the team won 56 games and he was their best offensive player?
Simply because the team won 56 games and he was their best offensive player?
I can't even laugh hard enough lololol
At least everyone else knows that Philly was winning on defense. You're actually trying to make it sound like AI was holding his teammates back while defending Shotcrook.
Shaq had Kobe. Same way Rose won over LBJ. (LBJ had Wade not bitchasswade at the time)
Red Blaster
Member
could you find the post I made where I said Lebron's superior rebounding and ability to not turn the ball over all the time was more worthwhile than Durant's better scoring %s
seems like it got deleted
Dominican Power
Member
Tyson shoots 70+%
he needs more jumpshots right, Knicks-age?
You're lurking too?
What? If you're going to troll at least make an argument.
Chandler can't score at the rim? What? 69% at 7FGA is not real then?
You sounded like I was saying he has some kind of post game or jump shots. I said if you are the ball handler you look for ways where your teammates can score efficiently, and Chandler can only do that at the rim, so you find ways for him to score there, and that's what the Knicks do.
You sounded like as if practice didn't matter, wouldn't allow the coaches and your teammates to get a better feel of the team.
Yes, AI was arguably holding his team back when he should've dominated the ball less. The guys you kept laughing at, objectively scored more efficiently than AI, passed the ball more efficiently than AI, and practiced harder than AI. His team won on defense.
AI is one of the most selfish "elite" players in the league, on and off the court.
Black Mamba
Member
MJ had Pippen, therefore he should have never won.
Stupid argument. Having good teammates shouldn't hurt someone.
Rose won over LBJ because the media got caught up in the hype from their record. The guys who should have won over LBJ that year were Dirk (had my vote) and Dwight who I argued for at the time. Not Rose.
I know WHY Rose and AI won their years from the media's perspective. But they were wrong.
You've actually argued that Iverson deserved it in your eyes. But that lunacy. Iverson was never one of the 5 best players in the NBA. He was always overrated because he was small played hard, and spoke his mind.
It was nice to see it, but it didn't vault him to the top. His MVP was much more of a fraud than any other. You even admitted they won with defense and that wasn't his specialty. There was never a season Iverson was an MVP over Shaq or Duncan.
Psychological Intellect
Banned
How is durant the more efficient when lebron's FG% is higher. I don't know how much purer you can get than FG%. It's literally shots that go in vs shots that don't. Lebron is a better play maker though. Either he finds his shots or gets himself in a postion where he finds the cutting man or the open man because people have to pay that much attention. KD will often pass back to westbrook to let him take a horrible shot. regardless of assists, you cannot compare KD's passing to Lebrons. It's on another planet. You talk about Durant's length and ability to play the passing lanes yet he comes away with less steals.]
TS%, offensive rating, etc.
FG% doesn't tell the whole picture, neither does any single stat.
Black Mamba
Member
FG% isn't a good measure of efficiency.
eFG% incorporates 3 point shooting (33% from 3 = 50% from 2)
TS% incorporates Free-Throws. 54% TS% is roughly average.
You can't compare Lebron and Durant's FG% straight up because Durant takes and makes more 3s and shooting them at 44% which is like shooting 64% from 2.
Durant scores 26 points on 16 shots. Lebron scores 26 on 18.5 shots. Durant is more efficient at scoring this season.
that said, Bron has to be way more ball dominant so there are arguments why this is. But Durant's scoring numbers are better.
Not trying to enter into the argument, just clarifying what TS% and stuff is (true shooting percentage).
Psychological Intellect
Banned
I don't see how it doesn't when it tells how many shots ade vs missed? isn't that's what's most important?
Idk man just looking at the most basic stats, that tell you exactly what happened in the game. my point stands, lebron outclasses KD in everything except scoring. He's also a MUCH better passer,defender and play maker.
Slow the fuck down and read what I write.
I said jumpshots right? Chandler is doing what he does best and NOT doing it. Knicks fans collectively shit themselves in unison because he took two jumpshots in the last two games. Shot selection, etc. Aaron McKie WAS scoring efficiently because he and the rest of that team knew to get the fuck out the way and wait for AI to expose where an opposing team's defenses were weak. Their shots were easy because AI was literally the only person worth guarding. That Philly team was basically the prototype to every single LBJ team. The difference is that AI knew how to play offball and that allowed guys like Eric Snow and McKie to "run" an offense to an extent.
Ball dominate guy, shooters (or people who try), and a great defense - its the typical Larry Brown system and that's why Mike Brown copied it. It just kills people who aren't built like Gundams.
The only person holding that team back was Billy King. You never see a Philly fan making this argument or anyone who followed the NBA back then.
But you know that's the case. And Pippen wasn't as good as Stockton.
And this is headed down the road of a truly retarded argument because you're butthurt that Shaq had Kobe and didn't get an MVP - which is weird because most of the time Lakers-age is busy trying to pretend that Shaq didn't exist.
GremlinFool
Member
Efficiency is about a lot more than "shots that go in vs shots that don't." It's a measure of the sort of shots a player takes as well as the ability to score in a given possession. Durant makes more 3s at a higher rate than LeBron, which is a sign of scoring efficacy. Durant shoots 20% better than LeBron from the field while netting four more points from the free throw line each game, an even better sign of scoring efficacy. Durant scores 28.4 points a game on 17.8 field goal attempts, while LeBron scores 25.9 points a game on 18.6 field goal attempts. Let me know at what point you become interminably confused.
Durant averages .1 less steals than LeBron but more than 50% more blocks than your defensive stalwart.
Black Mamba
Member
A pair of MJ's acid washed jeans.
Serge Ibaka gets tons of blocks. He must be the best defensive player in the league.
Because TS% takes into account 3 pointers and free throw %. Free throws don't show up as shot attempts.
I am not arguing KD vs LeBron. Just telling you that don't get so hung up on one stat because it seldom tells you the whole picture.
GremlinFool
Member
I never asserted that Durant's stats decisively prove he's a competent defender, but he insisted on getting into a cockwaving contest about LeBron's .1 more steals a game.
Psychological Intellect
Banned
thanks for claryfing that. I just don't see it as being more important than FG%. I mean, yeah 3s are worth more than a regular shot. but I think the most you can take away from those is that KD is a better shooter and scorer, I just don't see him as being more efficient. Idk man maybe it's too late for me to be thinking so much. Gremlin, if you're still here, I might finish this in the morning.
edt: on Basketbal reference, KD's steals per game for the season is 1.2 while lebron's is 1.6. nobody's waving cocks bro.
edit2:lol aybe i should have put a disclaimer that I'm semi new to watching bball and new to these advanced stats.
LBJ is probably the best defensive player in the league right now. His man defense in the post is on another level and he only does it back Miami has no interior to speak of. If he were back on the perimeter, he'd be lighting it up. Also, he just got done giving KD work in the Finals.
Durant gets his chase caved in everytime he gets within 10ft of the basket on defense.
Black Mamba
Member
It is, but it shouldn't. And if Pippen wasn't as good as Stockton, why did Karl win over MJ?
I don't pretend Shaq didn't exist. I still keep his defunct cell phone number on all my cell phones
I'd have been okay with Duncan winning. It's just Iverson should never have sniffed the conversation. Even Ray Allen and Carter were better players (as was TMac).
Iverson was just steve francis but unconstrained by the loss of his butt buddy.
More efficient scorer, yes. That's kind of what it means.
Lebron is better but Durant doesn't just score. He's not Melo.
Black Mamba
Member
He's a decent facilitator when they let him do it. Again, nothing close to Bron's level, but he's really improved his PnR when they run it for him (more often in the 4th). He constantly finds guys like Ibaka and Collison open on these plays (the high PnR). Just checked his assists right now and he's up to 4.
I think Durant's man defense is pretty good. He's also one of the best rebounding SFs in the game. Also good in transition D and can make the occasional help block. Not a world-beater, but solid.
Melo is a scorer. It's all he does. Durant is a much more well-rounded game (the handling and passing picked up late last season) in comparison. He's a great scorer that can do other things. not on the level of Lebron or even Harden and Kobe, but he can do it.
I didn't say he just scored, but he doesn't do anything else better than Lebron but score.
Black Mamba
Member
I used him and Harden as a reference for scoring wings who also do other things. I could have said Pierce instead but Kobe, obviously, pops into my mind quickly. Of course you only focus on that...
Ah okay, I agree with you.
theignoramus
Member
no it wouldnt, the east is garbage as usual. 8 teams under .500, couple more hovering at or around it. losing basketball is played in the EC
I don't pretend Shaq didn't exist. I still keep his defunct cell phone number on all my cell phones
I'd have been okay with Duncan winning. It's just Iverson should never have sniffed the conversation. Even Ray Allen and Carter were better players (as was TMac).
Iverson was just steve francis but unconstrained by the loss of his butt buddy.
Exactly. Steve Franchise on steroid with a shitty attitude. Got lucky playing in a historically weak, post Chicago Jordan Eastern conference, for a great coach who still hasn't lost his mind.
Knux-Future
Banned
Iverson got MVP because real talk the second best player on that team was Eric Snow.
Plus Larry didn't hate him. That's worth an award in itself.
I always hate how people try to prop up the rest of that bunch to take away from what he did that year.
Bu-but he shot a lot and his % was low.
He was the only guy capable of getting his own shot.
Also dude was like 5"8 and maybe 150. He wasn't the mini tank Westbrook is. Was constantly fucked up ( his injury chart was Jackie Chan levels) and still played.
I get sick whenever someone tries to put down what he did because they seemingly only go by stats rather than actually watch him.
I ask you this how many games would that team have won without him? Iverson's best sidekick in Philly was Keith Van Horn.
So please stop taking away from the last good season we had
Plus Larry didn't hate him. That's worth an award in itself.
I always hate how people try to prop up the rest of that bunch to take away from what he did that year.
Bu-but he shot a lot and his % was low.
He was the only guy capable of getting his own shot.
Also dude was like 5"8 and maybe 150. He wasn't the mini tank Westbrook is. Was constantly fucked up ( his injury chart was Jackie Chan levels) and still played.
I get sick whenever someone tries to put down what he did because they seemingly only go by stats rather than actually watch him.
I ask you this how many games would that team have won without him? Iverson's best sidekick in Philly was Keith Van Horn.
So please stop taking away from the last good season we had
Id argue that being able to do what he does next to YNB makes him pretty good.