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2012 NBA Mar |OT2| The Manhattan Project Part II: Blow It All Up, Again

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P

Prototype-03

Member
SUPREME1 said:
Bullshit.


Without Kobe's production, the Lakers don't sniff the playoffs.
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It's a double edged sword, imo. Kobe's still amazing, but you can tell he's in a decline. He still draws a lot of double teams which tells a lot. However, going to 2/10 or whatever he went for... do not want. I'm all for shooting out of your slump, but he takes an incredible amount of bad shots. He needs to learn how to pass when he draws double teams (what Bynum has been doing lately).

He still makes some great clutch shots (see: yesterday), but I don't want him turning into a Fisher.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
So Jeffrey had to settle for buying the irrelavent Bobcats and is currently driving them to bankruptcy, meanwhile Magic buys the Dodgers for $2 billion straight cash homey. Magic won.
 
P

ph33nix

MWO
Canuck76 said:
Actually i was talking about the Lakers there but i would say the same thing a little less confidently about OKC. I don't think it'd be an easy series on either side but at the end of the day i trust Durant more than i do anyone on the Heat.
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Based off of what?
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Vahagn said:
There are games where I mind Kobe's shot selection. Detroit / Washington / Denver roadies all examples. I don't mind Kobe going to the baseline for a rise up jumper like the two shots he hit. 80-90% of Kobe's clutch made baskets are jumpers...I'm ok with that.

People here act as if "contested jumper" isn't what Kobe's made a living off of. He's a great mid range jump shooter...he's almost never open...particularly late in the game situations...that equals contested jump shots. Hitting tough contested shots over double teams and the like is what got us the championships. There are bad shots he takes...like non-heat check 3's in the final couple minutes of a close game (like the one he did today) with a lot of time on the clock.

My issue with this stat approach is basketball is not a computer simulator you can just draw up "the most efficient" play and expect it to work all the time. The most creative play design coaches in basketball often times give the ball to their superstar and clear out and ask him to go make a play...it's been like that FOREVER for a reason. I don't think Kobe's selfish and I don't think he's chucking...he's had more horrible individual chucking games like the ones I mentioned...but it's not across the board...he shot 7/15 against Memphis and people were complaining then too.

I see Kobe almost never in the post...rarely in a pick and roll with gasol and the floor spaced. Those are his best offensive sets...and Brown doesn't run them because he'd rather post up the bigs or do PnR with Ramon. Also...offensively...we've been fine overall man. Kobe, Artest, Blake, Fisher, Pau were all below their normal FG% this season but the overall offense has definitely gotten better the past month or two. It's the defense that's been slippin like crazy the past month or so...I'm not happy with Kobe's %...but I see the difference in shots he's getting versus earlier in the year and the triangle. He's shooting more long 2's because he's shooting more shots...and he's getting less post up situations.

I just feel like Kobe is becoming the new Fisher around here...and I wasn't chalking up the Lakers losses to Fisher and I'm not about to do it to Kobe either. This team isn't as talented as our championship years...our coach isn't as good Phil...OKC / SA / Chicago / Miami are all better than in recent years and legitimately better than us...and we're 5th in the league or whatever...we're overachieving compared to most early season expectations...everything is ok. No reason to go meltdown mode like Lakers-Age was doing during this game.
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You are making excuses for Kobe's chucking that make no sense. Kobe has made a living on that shot, but he's usually done it towards the end of the clock, not early. Now he's shooting it early in the clock and often without even attempting to dribble. This is not how Kobe has played most of his career.

Games where Kobe isn't shooting well, he will get a step on his man and instead of go into the lane where there is a clear path for him, he will pull up to prove he can make the outside shot. Kills me.

He's also becoming a ball stopper. Get the ball early in the clock and just hold it doing nothing. Not even go into the triple threat position. Again, something he rarely every used to do. He's supposed to put constant pressure on the D.

The Memphis game was misleading. He shot 7/15 but got hot in the 3rd. The other 3 quarters he shot poorly. But remember earlier I said in the Utah game that Kobe got good shots and he just missed them and although Kobe lost the game via shooting, I didn't mind the shots he took? The other games are a different story.

There is no excuse for some of his lines this year. 10/27. Please. If Kobe is taking more longer shots, then it's on him to get into better shots. He's the one running the offense a lot. He's also the one calling off Brown's plays and waving Pau away from the PnR. Don't believe me? watch his off hand when Pau is looking to come do it.
 
H

Herpes Reasons

Banned
the fact kobe is sniffing that scoring title is just more burden of proof he will be chucking his way to the playoffs.
playoff position be damned to him
 
P

ph33nix

MWO
Canuck76 said:
His ability to win games and make smart plays. At the 2 minute mark i trust Durant to win more than i do Wade at this point or anyone else obviously. Put the ball in his hands, let him get buckets. His D ain't too shabby either
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Yeah but he's won a grand total of one conference finals games, so until he does it then I don't trust him (OR YNB) over anyone

he probably is one of the best bucket getters now in crunch time so I give you that but like I said, we will see. lebron hasn't proven dick either so I'm not saying he's better too
 
L

linsivvi

Member
Liquidsnake said:
Because he is on the verge of winning another scoring title, regressing? Maybe compared to 5 years ago. From last year? Not as much as you all would like to think.

Im sorry, Ill go back in the hole, I just don't get you guys sometimes. All Kobe has done is prove you all wrong for almost 17 seasons, and you all still doubt him. With my life on the line and only one man to make the shot to save it. Ill take Kobe over Jordan.
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The Lakers as a team are making 45.6% of their field goals. Kobe is shooting 42.9% for the season and, if the current trend is anything to go by, it'll continue to drop further. The only reason he's on the verge of winning a scoring title is because he's taking shots away from his teammates.

The FG% of the other scoring leaders:
Durant: 50%
LeBron: 53%
Love: 46%
Westbrook: 48%

So even if Kobe ends up winning the scoring title, it is an Iverson-esque scoring title. Except that Iverson never had teammates like Pau and Bynum.

Durant is only .5 point behind Kobe. Personally, I'm hoping Durant will go on a scoring tear and get a string of 40/50 point games and make it out of reach for Kobe. Maybe it will get him to start playing team ball again. At this point Kobe not winning the scoring title could only be a good thing for the Lakers.
 
P

Puddles

Banned
I don't mind Kobe's shooting % being a bit low as long as he's getting to the line. It's the games where he has more shots than points that really bother me.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Liquidsnake said:
I love reading the Kobe hate here its amazing.

How many points did he have last night? From all I read on the last page you would have thought he had 14 points and went 7-30. I come here and I am amused by the hate. Its going on 16 years now.

Kobe has laughed through 5 rings. Yet you guys will never give validation. If he went on to win 7 you still would find excuses to not include him in the top 100 of all time.

It does get amusing.
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hate? Kobe is one of my favorite players. I'm simply bothered by how differently he's playing right now.

But I am confident he will change his game come playoff time. He almost always becomes more team-oriented in the postseason.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Black Mamba said:
hate? Kobe is one of my favorite players. I'm simply bothered by how differently he's playing right now.

But I am confident he will change his game come playoff time. He almost always becomes more team-oriented in the postseason.
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He's old as shit now. It's amazing that he's even in the conversation and being compared to the Durants and LeBrons. I guess I am not bothered by it because I had low expectations of this season and see the next 2 years as the Kobe Farewell Tour. I didn't expect titles, I'm honestly okay with watching Kobe rack up stats and records. He's earned it.
 
P

ph33nix

MWO
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7744475/lawyer-broke-ill-dennis-rodman-pay-support


Dennis Rodman is "extremely sick" and "broke," which prevents him from being current on child and spousal support payments, court documents obtained by the Chicago Tribune say.

Rodman, 51, owes more than $800,000 in back child support for two children he had with his third wife, Michelle Rodman, her attorney said in court documents. He also owes more than $51,000 in spousal support, Jack Kayajanian claims.
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I hope he doesn't off himself or anything. I used to love watching him play, especially when you didn't know what his hair color was going to be one night and you were just waiting for an ejection to happen.
 
D

Duki

Banned
is liquid snakes return to this tread the worst in living memory or what

maybe dancing judas' i guess

smh @ "hes scoring a lot of points hes still da best better than mj"

terrible
 
P

Prototype-03

Member
Duki said:
is liquid snakes return to this tread the worst in living memory or what

maybe dancing judas' i guess

smh @ "hes scoring a lot of points hes still da best better than mj"

terrible
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And then disappeared without a trace. I guess in his mind, he won the argument, because he never replied back.

It's Cartman's defense - "Screw you guys, I'm going home"
 
L

Liquidsnake

Banned
Oh and one more thing............Mike Brown is the only problem with the Lakers. No one respects him. He has already lost the locker room. I think He will be a one and done.

If Bynum had one ounce of respect for him he would not have shot the three last night. He would not have said what he said after the game about taking more threes. If Phil were the coach, Bynum would shit in his pants after taking that three.

I am not going to argue about Kobe. I just disagree with the majority of you. I have been hearing the same thing for 17 years. It gets old. I am not trying to change your minds. I just disagree.
 
P

ph33nix

MWO
to be fair maybe he had to go do something. it happens

doesn't make his kobe>jordan argument any less shitty though


Liquidsnake said:
Oh and one more thing............Mike Brown is the only problem with the Lakers. No one respects him. He has already lost the locker room. I think He will be a one and done.

If Bynum had one ounce of respect for him he would not have shot the three last night. He would not have said what he said after the game about taking more threes.
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players being so dismissive of him is a pretty big problem in itself. if that's really bynum's attitude..."i took one before and I'll do it again" that's not a coach issue, that's a player being selfish and immature and giving no fucks about it

and I'm not blaming mike brown for that at all.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Mamba

No one has ever dominated the game for more than a decade in terms of rings. Russell did 11 years...and that's about it. Kobe got 5 rings throughout the last decade..we expect him to carry a team with one potential other hall of famer to a 6th or 7th ring in his 16th season with a mid level coach?


Lakers aren't winning this year...and it's got nothing to do with Kobe's shot selection. They have no shot...none. They're contenders and they might make the WCF...but they're not winning a ring.


As for the Kobe doesn't utilize Bynum/Pau nonsense. Kobe is one of maybe 3 people on this team that knows how to do an entry pass...and prior to Sessions being here...the only guy that can run a PnR with either Big. Kobe gets the ball to the bigs in scoring position more than any other player on the team. Bigs get doubled...and when they do...they aren't assertive or skilled enough to score regularly. They pass the ball out and it doesn't come back to them because both Pau and Bynum have shown that when they get doubled in the post...they can't score regularly and the open shot they generate is the shot that should be taken.


The ONLY guy on this team that cuts regularly is Barnes...everyone else stands around. You're confusing this offense with the triangle where everyone would move around consistently and kobe didn't have to hold the ball for 6 seconds while people stood around figuring out what to do.


You don't understand why Kobe's playing this way...I'm explaining it to you. I would love for him to shoot 47% instead of 43%. Watching his regular 10-27 games blowwwwws. But I wouldn't go as far to call him selfish or act like he's the reason we're losing games...


Those times kobe catches the ball and holds for 6 seconds...watch the off ball movement..there is none. And he waives Pau away half the time because a lot of the time it just creates traps and congestion because the floor spacing is not nearly as effective as what the triangle had so people just trap kobe every time and know they could recover.



I'm not making excuses...I'm watching the game and paying attention to subtleties...there's a difference.



You're LITERALLY wondering why THIS is happening...acting shocked...then criticizing Kobe for it. The whole world knew this was what would happen in a Mike Brown offense.

Mike-Brown-Playbook-300x216.jpg
 
Dominican Power

Dominican Power

Member
linsivvi said:
The Lakers as a team are making 45.6% of their field goals. Kobe is shooting 42.9% for the season and, if the current trend is anything to go by, it'll continue to drop further. The only reason he's on the verge of winning a scoring title is because he's taking shots away from his teammates.

The FG% of the other scoring leaders:
Durant: 50%
LeBron: 53%
Love: 46%
Westbrook: 48%

So even if Kobe ends up winning the scoring title, it is an Iverson-esque scoring title. Except that Iverson never had teammates like Pau and Bynum.

Durant is only .5 point behind Kobe. Personally, I'm hoping Durant will go on a scoring tear and get a string of 40/50 point games and make it out of reach for Kobe. Maybe it will get him to start playing team ball again. At this point Kobe not winning the scoring title could only be a good thing for the Lakers.
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All these dudes benefit from having someone to run the floor with or being set up for easy baskets. Kobe doesn't have the luxury of scoring easy baskets. Something that Durant/Westbrook/LeBron all benefit from. Ricky Rubio made it easier for K Love to get easy baskets or wide open jumpers.
 
L

Liquidsnake

Banned
Vahagn said:
Mamba

No one has ever dominated the game for more than a decade in terms of rings. Russell did 11 years...and that's about it. Kobe got 5 rings throughout the last decade..we expect him to carry a team with one potential other hall of famer to a 6th or 7th ring in his 16th season with a mid level coach?


Lakers aren't winning this year...and it's got nothing to do with Kobe's shot selection. They have no shot...none. They're contenders and they might make the WCF...but they're not winning a ring.


As for the Kobe doesn't utilize Bynum/Pau nonsense. Kobe is one of maybe 3 people on this team that knows how to do an entry pass...and prior to Sessions being here...the only guy that can run a PnR with either Big. Kobe gets the ball to the bigs in scoring position more than any other player on the team. Bigs get doubled...and when they do...they aren't assertive or skilled enough to score regularly. They pass the ball out and it doesn't come back to them because both Pau and Bynum have shown that when they get doubled in the post...they can't score regularly and the open shot they generate is the shot that should be taken.


The ONLY guy on this team that cuts regularly is Barnes...everyone else stands around. You're confusing this offense with the triangle where everyone would move around consistently and kobe didn't have to hold the ball for 6 seconds while people stood around figuring out what to do.


You don't understand why Kobe's playing this way...I'm explaining it to you. I would love for him to shoot 47% instead of 43%. Watching his regular 10-27 games blowwwwws. But I wouldn't go as far to call him selfish or act like he's the reason we're losing games...


Those times kobe catches the ball and holds for 6 seconds...watch the off ball movement..there is none. And he waives Pau away half the time because a lot of the time it just creates traps and congestion because the floor spacing is not nearly as effective as what the triangle had so people just trap kobe every time and know they could recover.



I'm not making excuses...I'm watching the game and paying attention to subtleties...there's a difference.
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I can at least work with this.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Full Metal Jacket said:
All these dudes benefit from someone running the floor with or being set up for easy baskets. Kobe doesn't have the luxury of scoring easy baskets. Something that Durant/Westbrook/LeBron all benefit from. Ricky Rubio made it easier for K Love to get easy baskets or wide open jumpers.
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Love's scoring has gone up a good bit with his efficiency not taking much of a hit at all since Rubio's injury. Kobe shouldn't be taking five threes and eight long twos every game with his current level of play. He should be closer to 20-22 points, 7 assists, and 5 rebounds at this point in his career because that would help his team win more.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Vahagn said:
Mamba

No one has ever dominated the game for more than a decade in terms of rings. Russell did 11 years...and that's about it. Kobe got 5 rings throughout the last decade..we expect him to carry a team with one potential other hall of famer to a 6th or 7th ring in his 16th season with a mid level coach?


Lakers aren't winning this year...and it's got nothing to do with Kobe's shot selection. They have no shot...none. They're contenders and they might make the WCF...but they're not winning a ring.


As for the Kobe doesn't utilize Bynum/Pau nonsense. Kobe is one of maybe 3 people on this team that knows how to do an entry pass...and prior to Sessions being here...the only guy that can run a PnR with either Big. Kobe gets the ball to the bigs in scoring position more than any other player on the team. Bigs get doubled...and when they do...they aren't assertive or skilled enough to score regularly. They pass the ball out and it doesn't come back to them because both Pau and Bynum have shown that when they get doubled in the post...they can't score regularly and the open shot they generate is the shot that should be taken.


The ONLY guy on this team that cuts regularly is Barnes...everyone else stands around. You're confusing this offense with the triangle where everyone would move around consistently and kobe didn't have to hold the ball for 6 seconds while people stood around figuring out what to do.


You don't understand why Kobe's playing this way...I'm explaining it to you. I would love for him to shoot 47% instead of 43%. Watching his regular 10-27 games blowwwwws. But I wouldn't go as far to call him selfish or act like he's the reason we're losing games...


Those times kobe catches the ball and holds for 6 seconds...watch the off ball movement..there is none. And he waives Pau away half the time because a lot of the time it just creates traps and congestion because the floor spacing is not nearly as effective as what the triangle had so people just trap kobe every time and know they could recover.



I'm not making excuses...I'm watching the game and paying attention to subtleties...there's a difference.
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Even if they're not contenders, I watch the Lakers with the expectation of being entertained. And watching Kobe these past 6 weeks or so has not been entertaining.

If you think he's playing the same now as to start the year, I don't know what to tell you. I've watched most every game he's every played and I simply don't like his style of play right now. Looks like a taller Monte Ellis all of a sudden.

And everyone stands around because of him. It's fairly evident. Nothing pissed me off more than when Ramon was rolling a few days ago, Kobe came in and he waved off Ramon's PnR so he could post up. And Ramon acquiesced and they lost. The next game, Ramon waved Kobe off and ran a play for Pau and they won.

Kobe is constantly calling his own number, especially in the 2nd half. How do you justify a contested 20 footer with 12 on the clock? I don't give a fuck if they're a contender or not. Play basketball the right way. If I want to see that shit, I'd watch the Knicks.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Black Mamba said:
Even if they're not contenders, I watch the Lakers with the expectation of being entertained. And watching Kobe these past 6 weeks or so has not been entertaining.

If you think he's playing the same now as to start the year, I don't know what to tell you. I've watched most every game he's every played and I simply don't like his style of play right now. Looks like a taller Monte Ellis all of a sudden.

And everyone stands around because of him. It's fairly evident. Nothing pissed me off more than when Ramon was rolling a few days ago, Kobe came in and he waved off Ramon's PnR so he could post up. And Ramon acquiesced and they lost. The next game, Ramon waved Kobe off and ran a play for Pau and they won.

Kobe is constantly calling his own number, especially in the 2nd half. How do you justify a contested 20 footer with 12 on the clock? I don't give a fuck if they're a contender or not. Play basketball the right way. If I want to see that shit, I'd watch the Knicks.
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Point taken. But...look at the GIF...I'm just surprised you're shocked that it's coming to fruition. Kobe isn't shooting a lot more shots the past couple months...he's just missing more. I explained that...earlier in the year we were using elements of the triangle with Kobe in the post. Time as gone on...we've inserted Mike Brown's offense...we now have this crappy offense. As I've said...all the perimeter players, wings, and even Pau are having their worst offensive scoring and efficiency seasons in forever...this isn't an isolated Kobe issue.


And "play the right way" seems to me like you want Kobe to turn into Lebron James. I don't want him to "make the right basketball play" and pass out everytime he doesn't have a wide open shot...I want our team to get back to defense...and for him to take over ball games by having the ball in places he likes to get it and making the shots he's done his whole career
 
T

Triple U

Banned
Full Metal Jacket said:
All these dudes benefit from having someone to run the floor with or being set up for easy baskets. Kobe doesn't have the luxury of scoring easy baskets. Something that Durant/Westbrook/LeBron all benefit from. Ricky Rubio made it easier for K Love to get easy baskets or wide open jumpers.
Click to expand...

I hardly ever see WB/KD get easy baskets. They score alot more points on ISOs and at the line.
 
T

thekad

Banned
Even I was surprised by how bad and selfish Kobe was when I watched the Rockets-Lakers game. He never passed the ball in the 2nd half.
 
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