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[ClovingWestbrook]

What the heck does that even mean? Kobe went ahead to accomplish alot more how does that make him overrated???

Gaby is referring to the media having a hard on to crown another MJ even though said 'candidate' isn't worthy of the cause AT THE TIME. The same applies today. The media is begging to compare a guy who in nine seasons has yet to not only win a ring but to show up in a finals. Trying to use every category EXCEPT the most important (because he lacks in said area) to force this false notion that LeBron is in fact as good OR WILL BE as MJ. It's preposterous.

 

[Emwitus]

Do you not get that I am talking about when he came into the league? I never said Kobe is overrated now or for his entire career. Just that coming into the league at the start he was overrated, especially to me since he had the luxury of playing for the Lakers alongside Shaq while guys like AI was scrapping for a team that barely won 20 games the prior year.

So how do you classify a player, "overrated"? How do you know what would happen if kobe was plugged into a far less inferior team like AI? How does overrated come into play? I don't get it. So if we can't use his career what do we use?

 

[Gabyskra]

What the heck does that even mean? Kobe went ahead to accomplish alot more how does that make him overrated??? He came into an organization that made him play off the bench...And like you said was playing with a far better player than him. He wasn't even the number 2 option when he came in. Iverson was the number 1 pick and came in has the alpha dog, so did lebron....

He IS not, he WAS.

Motherfucking logic, how does that work? Stop bringing his later accomplishments, I'm saying he was overrated before 2002!

He stopped being the underdog a year into his career, he was overrated as fuck, he was not even Sprewell good and he started in the ASG!

 

[effzee]

This is so absolutely ridiculous. The media is begging to crown LeBron as a top 5 player ALREADY and he has yet to accomplish the single goal of any competitor: WIN. It's not as though he has shown up as the best player on the court in do or die games throughout his career. Anybody who even throws LeBron in the MJ class before he LEADS his team when it matters most is a joke. And no, LeBron leading his team by the Bulls and Celtics of last year DO.NOT.COUNT. Why? Because he didn't do shit in the finals. Dwight Howard led the Magic in 2010 and yet he has as many rings as LeBron. Barkley led his team in 1993 yet couldn't get passed MJ. Ewing led his team yet never won. Kemp and Payton led their team but never won. The list goes on and on. Talk to me when LeBron is the MVP in an NBA finals.

Media might begging to crown his top 5 all time, but in actuality they haven't. Even ESPN which has stalked Lebron since birth practically is equal parts questioning his toughness, ability to be clutch, and equal parts praise. All the talking points shows question him and his career thus far.

And I'd argue that he is on his way to a HOF career ring or no ring, must like other guys you mentioned. If he wins a ring this year (he won't) I don't think he will need to be finals MVP. The season MVP will carry over unless he has 0 contribution to the Heat winning the title.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

So how do you classify a player, "overrated"? How do you know what would happen if kobe was plugged into a far less inferior team like AI? How does overrated come into play? I don't get it. So if we can't use his career what do we use?

How is this even up for debate? Kobe WAS overrated when he came into the league. He was overrated because the media was hyping up an MJ vs Kobe storyline before Kobe was 20 years old. It's ridiculous.

Media might begging to crown his top 5 all time, but in actuality they haven't. Even ESPN which has stalked Lebron since birth practically is equal parts questioning his toughness, ability to be clutch, and equal parts praise. All the talking points shows question him and his career thus far.

And I'd argue that he is on his way to a HOF career ring or no ring, must like other guys you mentioned. If he wins a ring this year (he won't) I don't think he will need to be finals MVP. The season MVP will carry over unless he has 0 contribution to the Heat winning the title.

He is already a lock for the HOF and deservingly so. You will find that the vast majority of posters here (besides Puddles) agree that LeBron is an amazing player, they just don't believe he is worthy of the comparisons that he has been receiving SINCE he stepped onto the court. I have said many times that IMO LeBron James came into the NBA with the most potential of any player in history not named Lew Alcindor or Wilt Chamberlain to go down as the a top player. He has the best physical tools I've ever seen. He is an amazing all around player. I can't stand him but I will not deny his greatness. I'd love to see him fulfill his potential but I don't see it happening DUE to him being mentally ilprepared when it comes to the big moments.

 

[linsivvi]

Why do we have the same arguments every week? Can't we mix it up and change the topic to something else instead? Let's say, who's the biggest empty stat guy in NBA history, Karl Malone or LBJ?

 

[Emwitus]

Gaby is referring to the media having a hard on to crown another MJ even though said 'candidate' isn't worthy of the cause AT THE TIME. The same applies today. The media is begging to compare a guy who in nine seasons has yet to not only win a ring but to show up in a finals. Trying to use every category EXCEPT the most important (because he lacks in said area) to force this false notion that LeBron is in fact as good OR WILL BE as MJ. It's preposterous.

But the media crowned every player at the time as the NEXT MJ???? So by his argument, EVERYONE was overrated. Kobe was a good player at 17 and by the looks of it, should be the last person he should call overrated. Overrated is a good player who ends up a dud.

 

[Gabyskra]

And I'd argue that he is on his way to a HOF career ring or no ring, must like other guys you mentioned. If he wins a ring this year (he won't) I don't think he will need to be finals MVP. The season MVP will carry over unless he has 0 contribution to the Heat winning the title.

Sigh. That's not a discussion, everyone knows he's a hall of famer

 

[Emwitus]

He IS not, he WAS.

Motherfucking logic, how does that work? Stop bringing his later accomplishments, I'm saying he was overrated before 2002!

He stopped being the underdog a year into his career, he was overrated as fuck, he was not even Sprewell good and he started in the ASG!

Fuck your logic, unless you call everyone else that came in overrated it means shit.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Kobe was nowhere near the level of Grant Hill '97 for instance. Kobe became elite in 2002. But he was compared to Jordan in 1998, five years earlier. Get it?

Motherfucking logic, how does that work? Stop bringing his later accomplishments, I'm saying he was overrated before 2002!

2002? Haha.

Ask the 5pur5 how un-elite and overrated Kobe was in say, 2001, when he dropped

Game 1: 45/10/3
Game 2: 28/7/6
Game 3: 36/9/8
Game 4: 28/6/5

In a sweep that wasn't even close.

 

[Gabyskra]

But the media crowned every player at the time as the NEXT MJ???? So by his argument, EVERYONE was overrated. Kobe was a good player at 17 and by the looks of it, should be the last person he should call overrated. Overrated is a good player who ends up a dud.

Kobe sucked his rookie season. Very few SGs shot the ball so poorly, AI & Stackhouse only.

Kobe touched Hill's best level in 2002 only. Is that complicated?

 

[linsivvi]

2002? Haha.

Ask the 5pur5 how un-elite and overrated Kobe was in say, 2001, when he dropped

Game 1: 45/10/3
Game 2: 28/7/6
Game 3: 36/9/8
Game 4: 28/6/5

In a sweep that wasn't even close.

Because he believes this is true:

The last decade belongs to Duncan more than it does to Kobe.

 

[effzee]

What the fuck are you on about? Who says that everyone is immature? I have no issue with most people here, some are friends even, just not people like you that came with an avenger mentality. Defend the poor Heat fans all you want.

What kind of fucking discovery, indiana jones like, am I making when I say that younger crowds are attracted to given stars, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, etc.? If you're 8 in 1992, you're a Jordan fan or respect him. In 1997, you're a Kobe fan. In 2004, you're a Lechoker fan, etc. People selling products appeal to the younger crowd because they need to be won over for them to be faithful over the long run, etc.

Obviously bandwagoning is something that young people do. When you've been rooting for your favorite for 15 or 20 years, you're not jumping ship at a given time.

Many Heat fans became fans in 2010.

Is THAT news, fucking really?

No its not news. And my whole point this whole time is that your assumption that people who do like the Heat or LBJ is because of their age is the dumbest shit ever. The NBA, more than other sports, is strictly individual star driven and there have always been fans who follow players more than teams. I am sure there are tons of people who became Miami fans when LBJ went to the Heat. But that # is easily dwarfed by bitter anti-Lebron fans who either don't like him for joining Wade or because he didn't come to their shitty team to rescue their franchise.

Just the assumption that many or all Heat fans are bandwagon fans is ridiculous to me. The Heat fans were just as loud and present during the Shaq Wade run. The crowd was there during the 90s Mourning era. Its as if the whole Heat fans are young or immature meme started and people ran with it into the ground.

And I don't care to defend Heat fans, I do chime in from time to time because of the stupidity of the Lebron hate which I expect from the likes of Skip Bayless, who has to make a career out of it.

 

[Gabyskra]

2002? Haha.

Ask the 5pur5 how un-elite and overrated Kobe was in say, 2001, when he dropped

Game 1: 45/10/3
Game 2: 28/7/6
Game 3: 36/9/8
Game 4: 28/6/5

In a sweep that wasn't even close.

Make that 2001 if you want, he was still all nba 2nd team that year.

Wait, are there people that don't think Duncan was the best player of the last decade? Oh boy.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

But the media crowned every player at the time as the NEXT MJ???? So by his argument, EVERYONE was overrated. Kobe was a good player at 17 and by the looks of it, should be the last person he should call overrated. Overrated is a good player who ends up a dud.

In the first few years, Kobe WAS overrated in the context of receiving comparisons to MJ. That should be indisputable. As was Harold Miner. As was Grant Hill. As was Jerry Stackhouse. Every single player that received that comparison WAS overrated in the context of said comparison. It is totally irrelevant what each player went onto accomplish.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Make that 2001 if you want, he was still all nba 2nd team that year.

Would you like me to bring up the 2000 Kobe "un-elite/overrated" playoff numbers too so you don't have to move the goalposts another separate time?

 

[Gabyskra]

In the first few years, Kobe WAS overrated in the context of receiving comparisons to MJ. That should be indisputable. As was Harold Miner. As was Grant Hill. As was Jerry Stackhouse. Every single player that received that comparison WAS overrated in the context of said comparison. It is totally irrelevant what each player went onto accomplish.

Man, I'm tired. It's not even that sophisticated an argument. It's just about remembering the time.

 

[Emwitus]

Kobe sucked his rookie season. Very few SGs shot the ball so poorly, AI & Stackhouse only.

Kobe touched Hill's best level in 2002 only. Is that complicated?

How do you not understand that in his rookie year kobe was playing off the bench and had to play limited minutes as not even a number 2 option? Wouldn't that OBVIOUSLY have an impact on his stats. Logic you say.


Like ryu posted above, kobe was already better than hill in 2001 and even earlier since shaq ain't winning those rings without kobe. Logic eh.


By your definition every freaking player was overrated coming into the league since everyone was compared to MJ and most of them failed. Kobe was freaking 17 years old coming into the league and was the 13th overall pick in the draft..............13th!!! Everyone before him was freaking overrated in my bloody book. You say kobe as if he was the only overrated player, please.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Man, I'm tired. It's not even that sophisticated an argument. It's just about remembering the time.

I don't understand what is difficult about the argument either.

How do you not understand that in his rookie year kobe was playing off the bench and had to play limited minutes as not even a number 2 option? Wouldn't that OBVIOUSLY have an impact on his stats. Logic you say.


Like ryu posted above, kobe as already better than hill in 2001 and even earlier since shaq ain't winning those rings without kobe. Logic eh.


By your definition every freaking player was overrated coming into the league since everyone was compared to MJ and most of them failed. Kobe was freaking 17 years old coming into the league and was the 13th overall pick in the draft..............13th!!! Everyone before him was freaking overrated in my bloody book.

Ugh. Come on, it's not difficult. You're arguing based on assumptions of what Kobe could have done, would have done had he been starting. Shoot, if thats the case lets just argue he would have been MVP the first three years of his career. Let's argue he would have averaged 35ppg as well. Had he started, he would have played more minutes and could have been involved in a play that was career ending, then how would you feel the comparisons were with MJ? The FACTS are that he came off the bench the first couple of seasons. He was receiving MJ like comparisons his second and third year in the league. He hadn't won a scoring title. He hadn't won an MVP. He hadn't won an NBA championship. He wasn't even averaging 25ppg. He was OVERRATED in the context of MJ comparisons. It's not difficult.

 

[Gabyskra]

Would you like me to bring up the 2000 Kobe "un-elite/overrated" playoff numbers too so you don't have to move the goalposts another separate time?

Bring the numbers all you want, give Shaq to McGrady or Vince in the early 00s and they do even better. He was an all star, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? The discussion is, was Kobe worthy to be compared to MJ early in his career? He was not. He'll still be inferior when all is said & done, but now the discussion is a bit more interesting than it was back in the day.

 

[Emwitus]

Bring the numbers all you want, give Shaq to McGrady or Vince in the early 00s and they do even better. He was an all star, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? The discussion is, was Kobe worthy to be compared to MJ early in his career? He was not. He'll still be inferior when all is said & done, but now the discussion is a bit more interesting than it was back in the day.

So don't say kobe was overrated because grant hill was better buddy. Say he was overrated because he was compared to MJ. That would make much more sense and would save us the trouble.

 

[Gabyskra]

By your definition every freaking player was overrated coming into the league since everyone was compared to MJ and most of them failed. Kobe was freaking 17 years old coming into the league and was the 13th overall pick in the draft..............13th!!! Everyone before him was freaking overrated in my bloody book. You say kobe as if he was the only overrated player, please.

This is obviously a touchy subject for you, and I'm sorry it hurts you, but yes, Kobe as a teenager was not playing at a all star level in my book, much less deserving to be compared to MJ. He shot poorly, and was not a very good defender. He became a monster after.

When Grant Hill was in the talks for MVP in 1997, he did something that Kobe would not do before, what, 2003? I remember in 2003 he was a clear 3rd behind TD & KG...

I'm not sure what you're saying, that I overrate Harold Miner & Stackhouse? I really don't, I don't even talk about them.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Bring the numbers all you want, give Shaq to McGrady or Vince in the early 00s and they do even better. He was an all star, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? The discussion is, was Kobe worthy to be compared to MJ early in his career? He was not. He'll still be inferior when all is said & done, but now the discussion is a bit more interesting than it was back in the day.

But you're now arguing what ifs too. You can argue that McGrady and Vince would have won a champion with Shaq all you want but they didn't. Tracy couldn't even take his team out of the first round HIS ENTIRE CAREER. How did Vince end up doing during his career when things got difficult. This argument that Kobe wasn't a pivotal key to the Lakers winning is preposterous and needs to die. I have never seen Tracy or Vince do what Kobe did in the finals vs the Pacers. Never saw them do what Kobe did to the Spurs.

 

[Gabyskra]

But you're now arguing what ifs too. You can argue that McGrady and Vince would have won a champion with Shaq all you want but they didn't. Tracy couldn't even take his team out of the first round HIS ENTIRE CAREER. How did Vince end up doing during his career when things got difficult. This argument that Kobe wasn't a pivotal key to the Lakers winning is preposterous and needs to die. I have never seen Tracy or Vince do what Kobe did in the finals vs the Pacers. Never saw them do what Kobe did to the Spurs.

Nah, I agree there.

 

[Emwitus]

I don't understand what is difficult about the argument either.



Ugh. Come on, it's not difficult. You're arguing based on assumptions of what Kobe could have done, would have done had he been starting. Shoot, if thats the case lets just argue he would have been MVP the first three years of his career. Let's argue he would have averaged 35ppg as well. Had he started, he would have played more minutes and could have been involved in a play that was career ending, then how would you feel the comparisons were with MJ? The FACTS are that he came off the bench the first couple of seasons. He was receiving MJ like comparisons his second and third year in the league. He hadn't won a scoring title. He hadn't won an MVP. He hadn't won an NBA championship. He wasn't even averaging 25ppg. He was OVERRATED in the context of MJ comparisons. It's not difficult.

And i agree with that. If Gabs would have mentioned that in the first place this argument would be over. But he refuses to acknowledge that every other player that came in was overrated at the time.

 

[Gabyskra]

Say he was overrated because he was compared to MJ.

... that's what I did from the beginning, man. First point. Second point I brought up is the whole buzz around ASG 1998.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38219143&postcount=2886

 

[charsace]

Why did ninja scooter get banned?

And Grant Hill in his prime was a fucking beast. Injuries robbed us of a top 10 all time player.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Bring the numbers all you want, give Shaq to McGrady or Vince in the early 00s and they do even better. He was an all star, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove?

I'm responding directly to your claim (and calling you out on talking outta your ass) that Kobe wasn't elite prior to your arbitrary year of 2002.

Who gives a fuck what NBA Team he was selected to?

Dude had a huge hand in running off chips, starting in his 4th year. And before you mention the bu-bu-but Shaq carried him bullshit, go back and look at say, 2001 (when they went 15-1 in the playoffs). Shaq was averaging like 30.7 PPG and Kobe was averaging like 30.5 I think.

The Big 2 was averaging almost 62 PPG.

But the guy was clearly not elite until 2002.

Clearly.

 

[Emwitus]

This is obviously a touchy subject for you, and I'm sorry it hurts you, but yes, Kobe as a teenager was not playing at a all star level in my book, much less deserving to be compared to MJ. He shot poorly, and was not a very good defender. He became a monster after.

When Grant Hill was in the talks for MVP in 1997, he did something that Kobe would not do before, what, 2003? I remember in 2003 he was a clear 3rd behind TD & KG...

I'm not sure what you're saying, that I overrate Harold Miner & Stackhouse? I really don't, I don't even talk about them.

You actually did overrate the other players...and that's why we were having the argument. Why else would i ask you to call all the others overrated too?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

And i agree with that. If Gabs would have mentioned that in the first place this argument would be over. But he refuses to acknowledge that every other player that came in was overrated at the time.

Well to be fair, I don't remember another of those players receiving the full MJ vs Kobe treatment that was given during the 98 all star game. That was just embarrassing looking back. Can you imagine the outrage on this board (had BestGAF been around) if it was LeBron vs MJ in his 3rd season, waiving Kah Maloan off? LeBron in his third year was killing Kobe in his third. We would've gone NUTS. So in THAT context, the Kobe vs MJ comparison was a bit more extreme than Harold Miner, Stackhouse, and Hill.

Don't get me wrong, I was loving it back then too as I was a Kobe geek and Lakers geek and it was incredibly exciting. Nevertheless, I can see just how lolworthy it was.

 

[Gabyskra]

I'm responding directly to your claim (and calling you out on talking outta your ass) that Kobe wasn't elite prior to your arbitrary year of 2002.

Who gives a fuck what NBA Team he was selected to?

Dude had a huge hand in running off chips, starting in his 4th year. And before you mention the bu-bu-but Shaq carried him bullshit, go back and look at say, 2001 (when they went 15-1 in the playoffs). Shaq was averaging like 30.7 PPG and Kobe was averaging like 30.5 I think.

The Big 2 was averaging almost 62 PPG.

But the guy was clearly not elite until 2002.

Clearly.

Dude. You're completely missing the point. 2001 is four years after his STARTING all star selection. That's a long time.

 

[effzee]

He is already a lock for the HOF and deservingly so. You will find that the vast majority of posters here (besides Puddles) agree that LeBron is an amazing player, they just don't believe he is worthy of the comparisons that he has been receiving SINCE he stepped onto the court. I have said many times that IMO LeBron James came into the NBA with the most potential of any player in history not named Lew Alcindor or Wilt Chamberlain to go down as the a top player. He has the best physical tools I've ever seen. He is an amazing all around player. I can't stand him but I will not deny his greatness. I'd love to see him fulfill his potential but I don't see it happening DUE to him being mentally ilprepared when it comes to the big moments.

I agree in parts. I don't think you can always assume that if an all time great player fails to win a ring for his entire career, its because it was all their fault and they individually failed to live up to the hype. Keep also in mind that while he had the most hype of any player coming into the league, because of it he also had the most pressure of any player ever coming into the league. And what he accomplished on some of those Cavaliers squads should be commended.

I look it more as while Lebron didn't overcome his own team or his own weaknesses, his Cavs finals team was outmatched. The better TEAM won. Last year the Heat I thought were the better team and didn't play up to their own level and lost to the Mavs.

I agree completely that no player, Lebron included, should be in any conversation or comparison to MJ when they first come into the league and to be fair even while they are playing. Only when a player's career is final and they have won a ring or two can they or should they be. I remember when LBJ first started off I actively rooted against the Cavs because I couldn't stand the coverage he and his team received. I think I changed somewhat during the last few years because it went from over the top praise to over the top hate. Now I want to see him win a ring simply to see guys like Skip Bayless and other noted Lebron haters squirm.

So how do you classify a player, "overrated"? How do you know what would happen if kobe was plugged into a far less inferior team like AI? How does overrated come into play? I don't get it. So if we can't use his career what do we use?

I don't get why you are getting so worked up. Kobe is not overrated now. He has accomplished more than I ever thought he would. I would put him right up there as one of the all time greats and he deserves the praise he gets. The point was coming into the league he was over-hyped and overrated until he developed his skill sets to the point that he matched that ranking. Credit to him for doing that and working on his game to the point he is still playing at a top 5 level.

I don't think you can measure two players directly apples to apples but you can't also claim Lebron and AI were or are overrated when they had a completely different situation.

You can throw hypothetical around but say Lebron demanded on draft night that he be traded and he would never play for Cleveland. What if he was traded to a franchise with a better overall team and won by now a ring or two? How does that change his legacy? What if Iverson refused to play for Philly and demanded a trade to LA to play alongside Shaq?

 

[Gabyskra]

You actually did overrate the other players...and that's why we were having the argument. Why else would i ask you to call all the others overrated too?

Why would we even fucking talk about Baby Jordan? It's not only old news, there's no way anyone would disagree

 

[jman2050]

The biggest thing to remember is that media comparisons to MJ is a marketing gimmick. What better way to turn a young promising superstar into a highly marketable product than to invoke the name of the most popular basketball player of all time? It was never about talent or legacy or history, it's about money.

 

[Emwitus]

... that's what I did from the beginning, man. First point. Second point I brought up is the whole buzz around ASG 1998.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38219143&postcount=2886

hahahaha. You started by just calling kobe overrated. Clearly in a trolololo kobe moment.Then you said he is overrated because grant hill and spriwell were better and he did not deserve to be at ASG. Then i mention just two years later he helped shaq win a championship...Then you said his rookie numbers were horrible....Then you said his a top 20 player at best. I've lost track of your point. But atleast you admitted all other players were overrated at the time including kobe.....

 

[Gabyskra]

hahahaha. You started by calling kobe overrated. Then you said he is overrated because grant hill and spriwell were better and he did not deserve to by at ASG. Then you said his rookie numbers were horrible....Then you said his a top 20 player at best. I've lost track of your point. But atleast you admitted all other players were overrated at the time including kobe.....

You would do anything to downplay any slight criticism of Kobe, even if it applies more concretely to the media & some extreme fans fifteen years ago, wouldn't you? Man, you're dense. First sentence of the msg I copied in the link: Jordan. Black on white. Just fucking read it.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Dude. You're completely missing the point. 2001 is four years after his STARTING all star selection. That's a long time.

I'm responding directly to your claim (and calling you out on talking outta your ass) that Kobe wasn't elite prior to your arbitrary year of 2002.

I'm responding directly to your claim (and calling you out on talking outta your ass).

I'm responding directly to your claim

.

 

[Gabyskra]

The biggest thing to remember is that media comparisons to MJ is a marketing gimmick. What better way to turn a young promising superstar into a highly marketable product than to invoke the name of the most popular basketball player of all time? It was never about talent or legacy or history, it's about money.

Yup. What I've been saying all along, about LBJ & Kobe. It tends to be less true of Kobe now, but it still is 100% with LeBron today.

 

[Emwitus]

You would do anything to downplay any slight criticism of Kobe, even if it applies more concretely to the media & some extreme fans fifteen years ago, wouldn't you? Man, you're dense. First sentence of the msg I copied in the link: Jordan. Black on white. Just fucking read it.

Thank you Einstein. Everyone is overrated compared to MJ, that's all i needed to hear.

 

[Gabyskra]

.

Yes, playoffs 2001 were impressive. I'm not sure you realize I was saying it took Kobe years to be elite, years after being compared to Jordan (which is the main discussion here, if you can call it that), and you argue that it happened one year earlier than what i was saying? Relax.

 

[Zep]

But you're now arguing what ifs too. You can argue that McGrady and Vince would have won a champion with Shaq all you want but they didn't. Tracy couldn't even take his team out of the first round HIS ENTIRE CAREER. How did Vince end up doing during his career when things got difficult. This argument that Kobe wasn't a pivotal key to the Lakers winning is preposterous and needs to die. I have never seen Tracy or Vince do what Kobe did in the finals vs the Pacers. Never saw them do what Kobe did to the Spurs.

To be fair, Kobe couldn't do this in his 'prime' with a terrible supporting cast like Tmac had for a good bit of his career. But I'm sure I'll hear about how tough the west was at that time(not saying this will be your excuse).

That doesn't excuse T-mac. The fact that he couldn't get out of the first round with Yao and a pretty damn good roster is bad.

 

[PBY]

Man all this Lebron/kobe/mike talk is so tired. The same arguments over and over

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Yes, playoffs 2001 were impressive. I'm not sure you realize I was saying it took Kobe years to be elite, and you argue that it happened one year earlier than what i was saying? Relax.

It wasn't just a year though.

2000 Kobe was no slouch either and the Lakers don't chip without him.

 

[DY_nasty]

To be fair, Kobe couldn't do this in his 'prime' with a terrible supporting cast like Tmac had for a good bit of his career. But I'm sure I'll hear about how tough the west was at that time(not saying this will be your excuse).

That doesn't excuse T-mac. The fact that he couldn't get out of the first round with Yao and a pretty damn good roster is bad.

Tmac's playoff performances were never bad. Dude is just unlucky as hell.

True curse.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Man all this Lebron/kobe/mike talk is so tired. The same arguments over and over

0/5/6

The only numbers that matter, peterb0y.

 

[protonion]

Being in Europe I don't follow NBA but Sara Jay will offer bjs to all her tweeter followers if Miami Heat wins.
Go Heat!

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Man all this Lebron/kobe/mike talk is so tired. The same arguments over and over

Not 1, not 2, not 3...

 

[Emwitus]

Yes, playoffs 2001 were impressive. I'm not sure you realize I was saying it took Kobe years to be elite, years after being compared to Jordan (which is the main discussion here, if you can call it that), and you argue that it happened one year earlier than what i was saying? Relax.

So kobe was overrated for 4 freaking years of his career one of which he was coming of the bench and the other a lockout year? Nice.

 

[iamshadowlark]

If Kobe showed in his career that he was as good and as skilled as MJ, how the fuck was he overrated by people calling him the next MJ?

 

[PBY]

0/5/6

The only numbers that matter, peterb0y.

I'm not saying your wrong, just that it's boring to hear the same stuff over and over again, be it pro or con Lebron. Just rehashed arguments