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2012 NBA Preseason |OT| The Rich Get Richer, The Poor Get Rasheed Wallace
- Thread starter Rodeo Clown
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theignoramus
Member
The Raptors and his people are still chatting and I know Bryans said often that he considers DeRozan a key part of the future but doesnt seem like a deal is imminent and the kid will become a restricted free agent next summer.
Raps could use a 2 that can score beyond 10 feet of the rim.
Reggie Jackson/Kmart for Jose Calderon and DeRozan, that's a doable trade and both sides win.
I wish James the best, but I hope he doesn't regret turning down OKC's offer in the long run.
I doubt Houston is a playoff team even now, and if things don't go well he'll get the blame for the half-empty arenas and lack of success. He never seemed like he wanted the top banana role, but I also can't blame him for wanting $78 million over 5 years.
And OKC is still one of the best squads, but it's simply unknown how the new pieces will perform (while Harden was a known quantity).
Our bench unit is now:
Maynor/Reggie Jackson
Martin
PJ3
Collison
Thabeet
Lamb will gradually be integrated into the rotation, and I assume Martin's expiring deal will be traded before the deadline.
I'm still a bit shocked, but I get why the Thunder did it and I'm still excited for the season.
I doubt Houston is a playoff team even now, and if things don't go well he'll get the blame for the half-empty arenas and lack of success. He never seemed like he wanted the top banana role, but I also can't blame him for wanting $78 million over 5 years.
And OKC is still one of the best squads, but it's simply unknown how the new pieces will perform (while Harden was a known quantity).
Our bench unit is now:
Maynor/Reggie Jackson
Martin
PJ3
Collison
Thabeet
Lamb will gradually be integrated into the rotation, and I assume Martin's expiring deal will be traded before the deadline.
I'm still a bit shocked, but I get why the Thunder did it and I'm still excited for the season.
Personally I like this deal for OKC, Martin may be able to flourish in a smaller role, even if he doesn't that's a 13 mil expiring contract. And lamb can play, he probably wont be as good as Harden but he may get close. Plus they got 2 first round draft picks? Smart move from a team that knows it's not getting past Miami or LA this year. As far as Houston I dont see how you give up three first round picks for the right to pay Harden 16 mil a year (and still miss the playoffs.)
Yeah Ray Allen for Marbury was nuts.This kinda reminds me of the Stephon Marbury trade. Maybe I'm just old, though.
lolknicks
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
Personally I like this deal for OKC, Martin may be able to flourish in a smaller role, even if he doesn't that's a 13 mil expiring contract. And lamb can play, he probably won’t be as good as Harden but he may get close. Plus they got 2 first round draft picks? Smart move from a team that knows it's not getting past Miami or LA this year. As far as Houston I don’t see how you give up three first round picks for the right to pay Harden 16 mil a year (and still miss the playoffs.)
They gave up 2 first rounders - Mavs pick is top 20 protected and the Raptors pick is protected as well. For James Harden that is not a whole lot.
And OKC was trying to chip this year and they had a good chance of doing it. Conceding now is really stupid, its closing the window while the window was wide fucking open.
Kevin Martin is a scrub. Jeremy Lamb might be great but they are done for this year. I hope it was worth it for Bennett, blowing it up because you couldn't pony up some extra cash for a championship contending team.
They gave up 2 first rounders - Mavs pick is top 20 protected and the Raptors pick is protected as well. For James Harden that is not a whole lot.
And OKC was trying to chip this year and they had a good chance of doing it. Conceding now is really stupid, its closing the window while the window was wide fucking open.
Kevin Martin is a scrub. Jeremy Lamb might be great but they are done for this year. I hope it was worth it for Bennett, blowing it up because you couldn't pony up some extra cash for a championship contending team.
I was incuding Lamb as one of the picks. And if they had good chance of chipping this year (they didn't) then they still have a pretty good chance now (they don't).
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
The dropoff from Harden to Martin/Lamb is huge, at least for this year. They are done now. I thought blowing it up was incredibly immature, the Lakers on paper could be juggernauts but who knows if it works out that way in real life and there is a long time to go from now until the playoffs where any amount of things can happen. The Thunder aren't a team built solely for the future, they were a team built for now and it honestly feels like they're wasting it. Jeremy Lamb better be something special or they're screwed.
The Stealth Fox
Junior Member
I'd have committed to Harden before Westbrook. OKC is dumb.
1) This is still a potential championship squad, and Presti is almost certainly not done making deals.I hope it was worth it for Bennett, blowing it up because you couldn't pony up some extra cash for a championship contending team.
2) Bennett offered our third-best player about $55 million over 4 years, and James opted not to take it. I'm sure Harden knew that turning it down meant being traded, and he was OK with that.
Nobody is to blame. It just didn't work out.
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
Also not sure where this narrative on Houston being terrible is coming from. They've had 6 straight winning seasons. They aren't the Kings or the Bobcats. They haven't been terrible before and they won't be this year either. Not sure about the playoffs but its a possibility, either way they'll be fun to watch.
Future PhaZe
Member
Do people realize Martin is used to getting like 15 shots a game , is Eric Gordon bad when it comes to health and shot like 40% from the field last year? He's averaging like 42% from the field over his last 3 seasons.
There's zero shot they can beat Miami with this deal. So they basically conceded the season. There was hope that after experiencing the finals that James could match his regular season numbers with another shot, along with a healthy Maynor and PJIII maybe making up the difference, but there's zero shot that Lamb will be able to do much of anything against the Heat as a rookie in that setting, and it's hard to anticipate just how much worse Martin will be in comparison to James.
Now future wise this move could pay off, but again, this season won't end well imo.
As for the Rockets...still have no idea what their plan is. Lin, Harden, Asik...and if they have another max to give out with the free agent market looking as bad as it does...best case scenario...Aldridge?
Lin, Harden, Parsons, Aldridge, Asik.
Yea they are going to middling for like a decade. Sorry Smokey.
There's zero shot they can beat Miami with this deal. So they basically conceded the season. There was hope that after experiencing the finals that James could match his regular season numbers with another shot, along with a healthy Maynor and PJIII maybe making up the difference, but there's zero shot that Lamb will be able to do much of anything against the Heat as a rookie in that setting, and it's hard to anticipate just how much worse Martin will be in comparison to James.
Now future wise this move could pay off, but again, this season won't end well imo.
As for the Rockets...still have no idea what their plan is. Lin, Harden, Asik...and if they have another max to give out with the free agent market looking as bad as it does...best case scenario...Aldridge?
Lin, Harden, Parsons, Aldridge, Asik.
Yea they are going to middling for like a decade. Sorry Smokey.
WhoaDo people realize Martin is used to getting like 15 shots a game , is Eric Gordon bad when it comes to health and shot like 40% from the field last year? He's averaging like 42% from the field over his last 3 seasons.
There's zero shot they can beat Miami with this deal. So they basically conceded the season. There was hope that after experiencing the finals that James could match his regular season numbers with another shot, along with a healthy Maynor and PJIII maybe making up the difference, but there's zero shot that Lamb will be able to do much of anything against the Heat as a rookie in that setting, and it's hard to anticipate just how much worse Martin will be in comparison to James.
Now future wise this move could pay off, but again, this season won't end well imo.
As for the Rockets...still have no idea what their plan is. Lin, Harden, Asik...and if they have another max to give out with the free agent market looking as bad as it does...best case scenario...Aldridge?
Lin, Harden, Parsons, Aldridge, Asik.
Yea they are going to middling for like a decade. Sorry Smokey.
Harden, Parsons, Asik, and LMA is damned good.
You just named off some of the most underrated players in the league.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I don't get the "Martin will flourish in a smaller role" comments...His role has already been pretty small for Houston in the last couple years (playing the third option to Scola+Lowry/Dragic and with pretty small minutes) and that's made him worse. He got benched frequently last year and the Rockets were better with him injured than with him playing as well.
So Harden's become the key to beating the Heat now? Do yall remember the finals? (Lets just forget about the Lakers and their 4 hall of famers)
Replacing their 6th man with Martin, Lamb (and Maynor) doesn't really make them worse.
Could you imagine if the Raps send OKC the 4th pick next year? Shit would be unfair.
Replacing their 6th man with Martin, Lamb (and Maynor) doesn't really make them worse.
I don't get the "Martin will flourish in a smaller role" comments...His role has already been pretty small for Houston in the last couple years (playing the third option to Scola+Lowry/Dragic and with pretty small minutes) and that's made him worse. He got benched frequently last year and the Rockets were better with him injured than with him playing as well.
Martin may be able to flourish in a smaller role, even if he doesn't that's a 13 mil expiring contract.
Could you imagine if the Raps send OKC the 4th pick next year? Shit would be unfair.
Rodeo Clown
All aboard! The Love train!
Martin doesn't really draw fouls anymore, though, since the rule changes to stop rip throughs and such.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
So Harden's become the key to beating the Heat now? Do yall remember the finals? (Lets just forget about the Lakers and their 4 hall of famers)
Replacing their 6th man with Martin, Lamb (and Maynor) doesn't really make them worse.
They lose to the Lakers or Spurs without Harden last year. Martin is garbage and has made no impact on the lottery teams he's played on (nearly impossible for NBA players), the Thunder were a terrible offensive team without Harden in the game last year.
Could you imagine if the Raps send OKC the 4th pick next year? Shit would be unfair.
The Raptors have an alright team this year and this draft looks pretty shitty though.
Future PhaZe
Member
Whoa
Harden, Parsons, Asik, and LMA is damned good.
You just named off some of the most underrated players in the league.
Yea they'll be playoff bound but doubt they chip with that roster. The Atlanta Hawks of the West.
Martin is a bandaid to try and reduce the impact of Harden's loss, and then he's trade-bait at the deadline. Nothing more.
As long as Maynor and Jackson play well, all we really need Martin to do is shoot well and draw fouls.
Martin hasn't really shot well for like 4 years now. He has drawn fouls though.
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
Do people realize Martin is used to getting like 15 shots a game , is Eric Gordon bad when it comes to health and shot like 40% from the field last year? He's averaging like 42% from the field over his last 3 seasons.
There's zero shot they can beat Miami with this deal. So they basically conceded the season. There was hope that after experiencing the finals that James could match his regular season numbers with another shot, along with a healthy Maynor and PJIII maybe making up the difference, but there's zero shot that Lamb will be able to do much of anything against the Heat as a rookie in that setting, and it's hard to anticipate just how much worse Martin will be in comparison to James.
Now future wise this move could pay off, but again, this season won't end well imo.
As for the Rockets...still have no idea what their plan is. Lin, Harden, Asik...and if they have another max to give out with the free agent market looking as bad as it does...best case scenario...Aldridge?
Lin, Harden, Parsons, Aldridge, Asik.
Yea they are going to middling for like a decade. Sorry Smokey.
That team would compete for a chip.
The one thing I've learned from last night is that James Harden is apparently massively underrated. He was the 7th best player in the league on iso plays, 9th best player on PnR, and the best player in the league overall when he got the ball off screens. He made his team better on both ends of the court when he played. He was a max player, regardless if he was a "sixth man" or not.
Yeah he shit the bed against the Heat, but they don't make it that far without him to begin with. Dumping a guy because he struggled in one playoff series is moronic. Thats like saying the Heat should have blown it up after their big 3 struggled in the finals against the Mavs.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Personally I like this deal for OKC, Martin may be able to flourish in a smaller role, even if he doesn't that's a 13 mil expiring contract. And lamb can play, he probably wont be as good as Harden but he may get close. Plus they got 2 first round draft picks? Smart move from a team that knows it's not getting past Miami or LA this year. As far as Houston I dont see how you give up three first round picks for the right to pay Harden 16 mil a year (and still miss the playoffs.)
What?
OKC had the perfect recipe to beat LA. That series last year with the Heat could have been alot different if Harden showed up.
This issue came down soley to the fact that OKC either couldn't afford or simply didn't want to pay the tax penalties. All this scared off the lakers/heat talk is for clowns..
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
I'd rather be a terrible team who will compete for a top 3 pick over the next few years than Houston. Houston has been a consistent winning squad without a shot in hell of being an elite team. This move isnt changing that. In the NBA the worst thing is to be a consistently mediocre team and thats what the Rockets have been and will continue to be even with Harden.
Future PhaZe
Member
That team would compete for a chip.
The one thing I've learned from last night is that James Harden is apparently massively underrated. He was the 7th best player in the league on iso plays, 9th best player on PnR, and the best player in the league overall when he got the ball off screens. He made his team better on both ends of the court when he played. He was a max player, regardless if he was a "sixth man" or not.
Couple of things.
1. Harden has only shot this well THIS season, for what was essentially a contract year for him. Keeping up that level of efficiency is going to be very close to impossible. But I'm projecting he comes close.
2. I'm projecting around 25-26 PPG, 5, and 5 as a 1st option. So I'm not underrating him.
3. Depends on your definition of "competing for a chip." A core of Kobe, Pau, Bynum was a better core than Harden, Aldridge, Asik offensively, and it's debatable defensively but I'll give the advantage to the Rockets. Even so, the Lakers had no shot at doing much in the finals and didn't make the WCF. I think those hypothetical Rockets aren't as good as that Lakers team, so that's my logic.
And I actually think Morey should be fired. They shouldn't have even gotten Lin or Asik. They should have tried to tanked for Bazz this year and any of the studs in 2014, then paid whatever maxes they wanted for guys like Love.
Teams should tank when possible. Look at the Vikings. Could have guaranteed themselves Griffin III.
Red Blaster
Member
When people talk about Harden it's like they're talking about some 29 year old
Guy is only 23 and is already a pretty good player; he'll only get better.
Guy is only 23 and is already a pretty good player; he'll only get better.
Rodeo Clown
All aboard! The Love train!
Yea they'll be playoff bound but doubt they chip with that roster. The Atlanta Hawks of the West.
You say that like it's a bad thing. Realistically, only a handful of teams have a chance at the title every year. It shouldn't stop the rest of the league from trying to put a decent product on the floor.
The long road back to respectability has taught me this valuable lesson: I'd rather win 50 every year and get bounced in the playoffs than not go at all.
darkside31337
Tomodachi wa Mahou
Couple of things.
1. Harden has only shot this well THIS season, for what was essentially a contract year for him. Keeping up that level of efficiency is going to be very close to impossible. But I'm projecting he comes close.
2. I'm projecting around 25-26 PPG, 5, and 5 as a 1st option. So I'm not underrating him.
3. Depends on your definition of "competing for a chip." A core of Kobe, Pau, Bynum was a better core than Harden, Aldridge, Asik offensively, and it's debatable defensively but I'll give the advantage to the Rockets. Even so, the Lakers had no shot at doing much in the finals and didn't make the WCF. I think those hypothetical Rockets aren't as good as that Lakers team, so that's my logic.
And I actually think Morey should be fired. They shouldn't have even gotten Lin or Asik. They should have tried to tanked for Bazz this year and any of the studs in 2014, then paid whatever maxes they wanted for guys like Love.
Teams should tank when possible. Look at the Vikings. Could have guaranteed themselves Griffin III.
I agree that Lakers team right now is better but how much longer is it going to last? Kobe is old as shit, Pau is 32 himself. Getting a guy like Harden makes your team better now but also sets your team up for success and something to build on for the future.
Everybody talks about what the Thunder got to build for the future in a couple of picks and Lamb, but honestly I think the Rockets themselves got the better piece to work with for the future.
Rodeo Clown
All aboard! The Love train!
I'd rather be a terrible team who will compete for a top 3 pick over the next few years than Houston. Houston has been a consistent winning squad without a shot in hell of being an elite team. This move isnt changing that. In the NBA the worst thing is to be a consistently mediocre team and thats what the Rockets have been and will continue to be even with Harden.
Spoken like a man that's never gone through a 15 win season.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
I agree that Lakers team right now is better but how much longer is it going to last? Kobe is old as shit, Pau is 32 himself. Getting a guy like Harden makes your team better now but also sets your team up for success and something to build on for the future.
Everybody talks about what the Thunder got to build for the future in a couple of picks and Lamb, but honestly I think the Rockets themselves got the better piece to work with for the future.
LMA isnt making them championship level for one. The only way to become a true champ in this league is with an MVP player (ignoring the one time it wasnt needed recently in 2004). Harden is good but not that good. The Rockets have locked themselves out from drafting said player and they wont be signing said player either. That is why this isnt going to be a game changer.
So as a starter likely to get big minutes were does harden now rank at SG. I have a Fantasy draft today? Right behind Kobe / Wade?
Definitely.
They lose to the Lakers or Spurs without Harden last year. Martin is garbage and has made no impact on the lottery teams he's played on (nearly impossible for NBA players), the Thunder were a terrible offensive team without Harden in the game last year.
The Raptors have an alright team this year and this draft looks pretty shitty though.
I agree about the Spurs, but that doesn't matter. The Heat were going to widen the gap and the Lakers were going to move ahead of OKC with or without Harden. They made a smart move here. Lets not forget that Martins contract can get them something good this year. Also, I think the Raptors pick is after next season, hows that draft?
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
With all of the avoidance of the luxury tax, I think Rudy Gay might be on the move soon. Gay for Monta would be interesting...
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Spoken like a man that's never gone through a 15 win season.
Just because your team is run by a yahoo doesnt mean thats how it is for other terrible teams. Ask Presti if he'd prefer to be a mediocre team that consistently wins (Portland) or the terrible team that drafted Durant, Westbrook, etc.
iamshadowlark
Banned
I've been through one and I agree. No way in hell am I going out of my way to give harden a 80million dollar contract. Especially not as my number one option.Spoken like a man that's never gone through a 15 win season.
I agree about the Spurs, but that doesn't matter. The Heat were going to widen the gap and the Lakers were going to move ahead of OKC with or without Harden. They made a smart move here. Lets not forget that Martins contract can get them something good this year. I think the Raptors pick is after next season, hows that draft?
Oh please.
The Stealth Fox
Junior Member
Rockets are on the right track again if Harden pans out.
Next step: fire McHale and get SVG. Then acquire another star through FA/trade.
Next step: fire McHale and get SVG. Then acquire another star through FA/trade.
I'd rather be a terrible team who will compete for a top 3 pick over the next few years than Houston. Houston has been a consistent winning squad without a shot in hell of being an elite team. This move isnt changing that. In the NBA the worst thing is to be a consistently mediocre team and thats what the Rockets have been and will continue to be even with Harden.
Morey's gamble is that Lin and Harden will be dynamic enough to attract another max contract guy next summer. Everyone should be happy. The Wizard made his move. He's hitched his career to the Harden trade and we'll all know soon enough whether it was worth it. He has always said getting the first star is the hardest part, and he is at least paying Harden like a star. So they better sign another one next offseason
Oh please.
What are you even objecting to? Larkin' son.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Morey's gamble is that Lin and Harden will be dynamic enough to attract another max contract guy next summer. Everyone should be happy. The Wizard made his move. He's hitched his career to the Harden trade and we'll all know soon enough whether it was worth it. He has always said getting the first star is the hardest part, and he is at least paying Harden like a star. So they better sign another one next offseason
That he is paying Lin what he is is proof enough that he's clueless and shouldnt be allowed to run an NBA team.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Lakers add two MVPs and OKC did nothing at all.
That isn't some massive assumption.
Also, Ibaka better be fucking worth it.
They also have alot of the same weaknesses they had before.
You still beat them pretty much the same way. A team with the athleticism and shooting of OKC still matches up great with them.
The Stealth Fox
Junior Member
Lin's deal isn't that bad considering its backloaded so it'd be a great expiring after 2 years of being paid 5 mil (which is at most what he's worth).
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Its bad. Dont try to justify it. Morey is an idiot for giving it to him.Lin's deal isn't that bad considering his third year is frontloaded so it'd be a great expiring after 2 years of being paid 5 mil (which is at most what he's worth).
The Stealth Fox
Junior Member
Its bad. Dont try to justify it. Morey is an idiot for giving it to him.
Have you looked at it? There's no way Houston won't move him by the end of his second year on that deal.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Good luck with that.Have you looked at it? There's no way Houston won't move him by the end of his second year on that deal.
The Stealth Fox
Junior Member
Good luck with that.
A garbage team in cap hell will take a 14 million expiring.
For those writing off OKC:
We still have Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka.
Our role players like Thabo, Perkins, and Collison are excellent.
Maynor is back, and Reggie Jackson is progressing. PJ3 and Lamb have top-5 talent.
And we still have cap flexibility and the ability to make more moves to improve.
We still have Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka.
Our role players like Thabo, Perkins, and Collison are excellent.
Maynor is back, and Reggie Jackson is progressing. PJ3 and Lamb have top-5 talent.
And we still have cap flexibility and the ability to make more moves to improve.
The Stealth Fox
Junior Member
News flash: Ibaka is awful and not worth that money. Should have given it to Harden.
He's not trading Lin. He was always flipping players and picks to get ammunition for a monster trade. He just made it. He believes in a Lin and Harden backcourt.
Have you looked at it? There's no way Houston won't move him by the end of his second year on that deal.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Sure, at what price. Thats the question. Dont try to justify your GM making a dumb move.A garbage team in cap hell will take a 14 million expiring.
For those writing off OKC:
We still have Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka.
Our role players like Thabo, Perkins, and Collison are excellent.
Maynor is back, and Reggie Jackson is progressing. PJ3 and Lamb have top-5 talent.
And we still have cap flexibility and the ability to make more moves to improve.
They are still good but Martin and Westbrook is scary...and not in a good way.
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