TheKaeptain
Banned
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2013 NBA Playoffs |OT3| Don't believe the pipe
- Thread starter reilo
- Start date
Trends and copycat leagues, how does it work.
But keep reinforcing the notion that you know more about basketball than Phil Jackson. This is fun.
Edit: Also. I don't know what you were watching, but the Indiana Pacers weren't camping guys at the corner. They were using Phil's principles of "pound it inside, and balance the floor defensively to prevent fast break leakouts"
Consequently, a good portion of their 3's were shot on the wing or the top of the key, with the corner only used when it was completely wide open
You do realize that the 50-win argument is a SUPPLEMENT to the "oh by the way, he also has FOUR FUCKING RINGS in that timespan" argument, right?
Don't be daft. Nobody would talk about Pop being the greatest coach of all time if he wasn't in a position to have a fist full of rings.
And please, quit acting offended. Talking about Pop doesn't diminish Phil Jackson's accomplishments.
PS: The other additional argument can be made is that Pop never adheres to a singular scheme, ie the triangle, like Jax did. Quite remarkable considering that the core of his team hasn't changed in a decade, but the Spurs in 2013 are vastly different from the 2007 and 2005 team in play style and execution.
Riley never adheres to a single scheme either. As for Phil, he used tons of PnR's with Kobe and Gasol and almost scrapped the Triangle all together when the LA second unit was on the floor during the championship runs.
Just because Phil is synonymous with the Triangle, doesn't mean he doesn't adjust. Dude is famous for making adjustments in the post-season during a series. That should tell you what you need to know about his ability to adapt.
Phil adjusted his rotations? Well I'll be fucking damned. Greatest coach of ALL TIME.
He adjusted lots of shit. He kept his rotations pretty clear actually. The same 5 guys finished out every single Lakers game from 2008-2011 provided they were healthy for example. With the Artest/Ariza swap being the only difference.
But, keep pounding this horn like everything you know about Phil came on a fortune cookie. "Phil uses Triangle"
Done.
Actually, his fortune cookies read "play Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Scottie Pippen, and Kobe Bryant" and not "draft Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili".
Justin Timberlake
Member
On one hand, you think Timmy is better than Kobe and Shaq. He's the greatest defender ever. On the other, you forget he exists.
And use GM duties as examples of who's a better coach. lulz.
It's not about getting through. We have a difference of opinion and lots of people takes different sides on the Phil/Pop question. I'm just rebuffing inaccuracies in his arguments.
When discussing Timmy vs Kobe vs Shaq we are discussing minutiae. Don't misrepresent my arguments.
But you do know there's a difference between having your second best player being Kobe and Scottie versus Manu and Tony (and old and busted Robinson I guess), right?
The fuck have you rebuffed? You've completely strawman'd everything I've argued.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Comparing coaches in general is pretty stupid and blind anyway though since the most important aspect of coaching might be helping to develop young players and we have little idea if players turning out how they are is because of coaching or because the GM found a really talented guy who would have succeed otherwise. There's a decent chance that Frank Vogel is a defensive wizard and close to the best motivator in the NBA. Or maybe Paul George would have developed into the player he is today with any coach.
I am kind of partial to Alex Hannum as one of the top coaches ever though because of him having the balls to dramatically reduce Wilt's role in the offense despite Wilt generally considered to be the best scorer ever at that point. Pretty forward thinking that he was against pure volume scoring over everything else in an era that was mostly based around volume scoring.
Pretty poor record mostly in the ABA though.
I am kind of partial to Alex Hannum as one of the top coaches ever though because of him having the balls to dramatically reduce Wilt's role in the offense despite Wilt generally considered to be the best scorer ever at that point. Pretty forward thinking that he was against pure volume scoring over everything else in an era that was mostly based around volume scoring.
Pretty poor record mostly in the ABA though.
Your first argument was about regular season 50 wins as the harbinger of success. It wasn't until I challenged it that you even mentioned rings, or ability to adjust in a series. Ignoring that Riley has all 3 of these, so does Phil.
Then you went on about Phil doesn't adjust to....wait he does adjust, but his rotations not his schemes...to...he had better players.
You constantly changing your arguments means you're being rebuffed. Stop throwing out "straw man" nonsense.
You: "Phil adjusted rotations not schemes"
Me: "Actually, Phil kept his rotations pretty consistent. Same 5 guys finished every game when they were healthy and schemes were changed...more PnR, more open tempo game with the second unit etc."
And yes Phil had better players, he also won almost 3 times as many rings. Don't act like this is 4 vs. 4. It's 4 vs. 11.
So, like I said:
reilo said:
Fuck man, the first post you even quoted you didn't read it correctly because you thought I was talking about .500 winning percentage. Go fly a kite.
did he have an epic rant?
MiamiWesker
Member
Lebatard RANT!!!!
"Way to name your team after something that starts a race but doesn't finish!"
"Way to name your team after something that starts a race but doesn't finish!"
I'm not even gonna argue this with you. It's your standard response when you have nothing to say.
Yes I misread the .500/50 win thing. I admitted to it, and then challenged your new assertion that somehow a 50 win season is the best measure of greatness.
If you believe Pop is the best coach. Fine. But saying he's the best coach because Phil doesn't adjust, or because he drafted Manu and Tony, or because as you're trying to imply: he had worse players but the level of success is comparable...none of those things are true...or in the case of drafting...valid arguments for being a better coach.
It's comparable. The difference is that my respect and admiration for Lebron is greater now than it prior to them winning it last season. But if the current Celtics were in the Finals against the current Spurs...and I had to root for one of them...it would probably be Boston.
Lakers fans' hate for Spurs possibly runs even deeper than their hate for Celtics.
"None of these things are true". You don't need that Kobe avatar, you need to be wearing sad Lakers clown.
You completely misread, misinterpreted, and misrepresented everything I've said, and countered with some vague bullshit about playoff adjustments and tried arguing that I thought Duncan > Kobe & Shaq or that I thought 50-wins was the only criteria to great coaching success.
Hey, you know why nobody brought up Phil's rings? Because they don't need to be brought up. Ditto for Pop's rings.
Go away. Nobody likes you.
I think it has more to do with their innate desire to root for Goliath against David.
purvispisgah
Member
My 2 cents that is totally meaningless:
If I were starting a random team and wanted to get the most out of them I'd choose Popovich. He has great schemes, his teams are always prepared, and he isn't stubborn.
If I had one of the best 2 players in the league and 2 of the best 10-15 I'd choose Jackson. For what he lacks in scheme (which isn't much) he makes up for in motivation and an ability to massage egos.
Ultimately I think it's kinda silly to compare coaches at the high end since there are about a billion different factors that go into all these things, but whatever. I'm sure these opinions have been echoed hundreds of times before on this very board.
If I were starting a random team and wanted to get the most out of them I'd choose Popovich. He has great schemes, his teams are always prepared, and he isn't stubborn.
If I had one of the best 2 players in the league and 2 of the best 10-15 I'd choose Jackson. For what he lacks in scheme (which isn't much) he makes up for in motivation and an ability to massage egos.
Ultimately I think it's kinda silly to compare coaches at the high end since there are about a billion different factors that go into all these things, but whatever. I'm sure these opinions have been echoed hundreds of times before on this very board.
No, you said all the things I said you did. Maybe you have a disconnect between what you mean to say, and what you actually say. That sounds like a personal problem.
The next time you want to tell someone that Pop is the best coach of all time on a response to a comment about Red, Riley, and Phil...don't respond with just "When's the last time Pop had a sub-50 win team" and then act shocked when someone wonders whether that's how you measure greatness.
Seriously dude. And yea, they do. Phil 11 vs. Pop 4 wasn't brought up by you because it's a losing argument. Not "they don't need to be brought up".
You wouldn't for a second, refuse to bring those up if the numbers were reversed.
Laughable though it may be, it's entirely plausible.
Duncan is going to get offended by Birdman's tattoos... and Tony Parker won't want Cole getting all up in his shit when the screens aren't coming fast enough without being moving screens.
Man, what I wouldn't give for some PEACE.
CherryWoodFuton
Member
Let's not underrate Duncan on the defensive end giuys. He's gonna give the Heat a lot of problems.
Popovich wasn't even a coach until '96, a full-blown 7 years after Jackson started coaching.
But since '96? Pop: 4 rings (chance to get 5), Phil: 7 rings.
How dare we compare those two? They only coached 11 of the past 22 championship teams.
Sad Lakers Clowns reporting in!
But since '96? Pop: 4 rings (chance to get 5), Phil: 7 rings.
How dare we compare those two? They only coached 11 of the past 22 championship teams.
Sad Lakers Clowns reporting in!
That is not true. I like Vahagn.
Don't go away, Vahagn. You do make good points, and your contributions to the overall discussion would be sorely missed.
Dude. When you're going to make an argument about Lesser quality players. Which you did. That argument works when you have comparable success.
So Phil's second best player was Scottie, Kobe, and Pau? Pop's were Manu and Tony? That's a huge dropoff? Sure. But the difference is, that Phil has 7 more rings to show for that added talent.
Phil had more talent, he also has almost 3 times as many rings. The "more talent" argument only helps Pop, if he did AS MUCH with less. or More with less. He didn't, he did LESS WITH LESS.
Unless we measure it by 50 win seasons...than we go back full circle...and you're still wrong. Because 50 win seasons < Chips.
Justin Timberlake
Member
lol does Jon Barry ever pick the Spurs?
wtf Abbott
<3 Stein <3 Legs
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
To be fair TP was fucking his brothers wife......
Justin Timberlake
Member
We've got the people tho!
Psychological Intellect
Banned
Haven't you said yourself you think the spurs have no chancce/fighting for silver?
all I know is that we're in for some really nice basketball
heat in 4
purvispisgah
Member
If Tony Parker fucked my Sister-In-Law, I'd never pick the Spurs either.
Edit: Beaten
Diprosalic
Banned
the last time one team swept in the CF while the others played 7, the team that swept won the finals 4-1.
funnily enough it was the lakers who swept the spurs in 2001.
funnily enough it was the lakers who swept the spurs in 2001.
Future PhaZe
Member
Really shit lines. No incentive to bet either way.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Heat are the best perimeter defense in the league. By quite a bit too I think. Everybody not named Parker will be in for a rude ass awakening.
And again, Duncan is a great defender but he ain't 7'2. He doesn't have a 7'4 reach. He ain't 280lbs. What he is, is 6'11 and 37 years old. To say that lebron would fear Duncan more than hibbert is fucking stupid.
If you and anybody else who is praising this Great Wall of spurs rim protection can agree in a stat tracker, I will bet whatever that we have alot better series FG percentage wise than versus Indy.
Vire
Member
lol does Jon Barry ever pick the Spurs?
wtf Abbott
<3 Stein <3 Legs
Trust the experts!
Psychological Intellect
Banned
LeBatard's rant kinda sucked
obijkenobi
Member
All this talk about the Big 3's and I'm actually more concerned with our bench and role players showing up. Esp after they disappeared last year against the Thunder