curlyfriski
Banned
This shit is blasphemous
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2013 NBA Playoffs |OT3| Don't believe the pipe
- Thread starter reilo
- Start date
This shit is blasphemous
Dwarfs? ROTY, 3 MVPs (in a row), 5 Finals appearances, 3-time NBA champion, 2 Finals MVPs vs. ROTY, 4 MVPs, 3 Finals appearances, 1 NBA Championship (on way to a 2nd), 1 Finals MVP
Not really dwarfing Lebron, and they were both on similarly stacked teams. Gap closing fast. It's a pretty reasonable opinion to suggest Lebron's better.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
You should probably read up on Russell. Shoot, listen to the comments that his contemporaries and the greats of the game of the last 30 years say about him.
Making up hypothetical situations is the best way to analyze NBA games.
One more MVP - 2 less chips, much less sustained dominance. People keep ignoring this tidbit about Lebron - when the dude gets bounced from the playoffs (every year except one) he plays poorly in that series for his/superstar standards. 09 Orlando being the only exception. The same cant be said of Larry, he was regularly great without series long lapses.
06 Detroit, 07 SA, 08 BOS, 2010 BOS 2011 Mavs - Lebron did not elevate his game in those series, he in fact played significantly worse than his regular season numbers. The dude has had two season where he played remarkably well ALL post season. If you don't believe me, go back and look at the numbers and game reviews from those series
28.1PPG, 9.2RPG, 7.6APG, 52.5%, 40 3PT%, 91FT%, 1.6SPG, 0.9BPG, 30 years old
29.9PPG, 9.3RPG, 6.1APG, 52.7%, 41.4 3PT%, 91.6FT%, 1.8SPG, 0.8BPG, 31 years old
I'll give you a few minutes to let that sink in.
Justin Timberlake
Member
We just went up 3-0 in the conference finals and this entire thread is about Kobe
And people ask why I post so much less than I used to.
And people ask why I post so much less than I used to.
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
The game is over. Onto the next. What would you like us to be discussing?
Let's skip Kobe for a second. Why would you put Hakeem ahead of Wilt? Wilt was the consensus best player of all time before Jordan came around because the folks who ranked the players then actually watched Wilt play. Most guys that watched him play thought he was the best ever. Kareem included. So if you're talking basketball skill - Wilts up there. As many chips, much crazier numbers, much more dominant than Hakeem.
Hakeem > Wilt just seems so strange to me. Almost unjustifiable.
Edit: Sorry I meant to say Hakeem ahead of Wilt. Not Kareem.
What do most sports writers do? I never said my list is factually correct or that I've seen all of them play live, just giving my opinion.
Justin Timberlake
Member
Um, any of the like 1000 potential takeaways from this game? Or other actually relevant topics?
1. How Hollins has been badly outcoached. Hes had Conley on Tony almost entirely, which is crazy considering hes their only worthwhile perimeter threat. Conley looks fucking gassed and its no wonder: he has to run through hundreds of screens chasing one of the absolute fastest players to ever play, and then is asked to run the offense on the other end. Its an impossible task.
2. How the Spurs frontline has outplayed Memphis' considerably, in part due to Memphis' terrible outside shooting, but also because despite the (deserved) hype behind the Memphis bigs, the Spurs still have the best one overall...and Tiago, Boris, and Matty are no slouches either.
3. Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green and their potential matchup with Bron and Wade.
4. Tim Duncan's ability to conform to any style and be successful. Slow, methodical, iso post play; heavy pick and roll; fast paced transition heavy ball; etc. He can win in a myriad of ways.
5. The Spurs' depth and defense compared to last year and how it can make a difference
Etc
Anything but Kobe
Anything
ffs
Black Mamba
Member
Wilt and Russell played in a completely different league than the guys who played in the 80s and later.
It's pretty much impossible to compare them at all. 8 teams in the league.
Took Pop 3 years to realize his team has to play defense again and stop hoping Euro-ball can outscore opponents. Not sure why it took him that long to figure it out.
It's pretty much impossible to compare them at all. 8 teams in the league.
Took Pop 3 years to realize his team has to play defense again and stop hoping Euro-ball can outscore opponents. Not sure why it took him that long to figure it out.
Basileus777
Member
That's why you compare players based on the context in which they played. You can do all sorts of counterfactuals and hypotheticals, but what really matters is what they accomplished in their own eras. Besides, I don't see how you can look at the modern NBA and say that Russell and Wilt wouldn't be tremendously impactful players even today.
Doesn't change how great they were. You can knock them a bit for it, but acting like they can't be compared to 80's or later players just cuz they were born in the 40's is unfair
I know, I've done my research on Larry Bird. I just don't think it's a moot comparison, you can make an argument Lebron's better. It's a damn shame Larry's back went on him, and the health problems of the later Celtics teams in general. His late prime is really amazing to me, like he saw the clock ticking. I think Lebron will catch him soon in accomplishments but Larry could have won more.
I really dislike Lebron generally, but if I'm being real, we have to get used to talking about him as one of the best ever. I think the media is too ready to claim his greatness, but fans like myself too hesitant. I think his legacy is going to be decided by how he performs in his reign, if we continue to see lapses like he's had in the past (which he did have, no doubt). I would never argue him the better competitor than Larry. Bird was just about as cutthroat as anyone ever. That's one of the biggest hangups I have with Lebron, he's never shown Bird or MJ (or Magic or Kobe) level killer instinct.
Black Mamba
Member
No one will ever have the chance to dominate statistically like Wilt or team wise like Russel.
it's simply not possible in a 30 team league (and in Wilt's case where he isn't the only athletic player 95% of the time).
This isn't a knock on them. I just don't know how we can really compare that era to this one in any way.
I mean, with Bird vs LBJ obviously LBJ would destroy him if you could transplant him to that era but we can at least do what you say and keep it in the context of that era. But have you seen games where Wilt and Russell played? Seen how they dribbled? With 8 teams, to boot. It's barely comparable to basketball today.
It would be hard to argue Mikan isn't top 20 player but he became extinct the moment people realized they were allowed to run...
I don't even know how to compare them. It's so different to me. Not arguing one is better than the other, it's not a knock. I'm just saying they should be left alone and not compared, really.
Basileus777
Member
Bird was more of a 4 that played SF because he happened to be on the same team as McHale. Even in his own era he couldn't defend athletic wings. In the today's league he'd be a version of Dirk with elite passing and playmaking skills, something teams would have still having trouble with.
I can get behind this. Dude wins 4-5 chips he's clearly best SF ever. But we get too hyped up about the recent thing and freakish athleticism too often. I haven't been impressed with Lebron's postseason through 10 years. In 2003 if someone told you Lebron would have one ring in his first 10 years I doubt anyone would believe them.
He was the chosen one, the next all time great, the possible heir to Jordan. In 2007 what he did to Detroit everyone felt like his time was at hand. It took him 5 more years to win. If he somehow magically doesn't win this season, he's out of the all time great top 10 discussions until otherwise noted.
Going 1/4 in the Finals puts you in Jerry West conversations, not Jordan/Bird conversations.
Black Mamba
Member
How are you not impressed with Lebron's post season so far?
Or last year's?
Or 2009?
the fuck?
Or last year's?
Or 2009?
the fuck?
Bird routinely played worse in the playoffs as did many all-time greats. As always, you have no idea what you're talking about.
In context of Bird/Jordan conversations I'm not. One ring in 10 years for a 4 time MVP Chosen One Lebron isn't impressive.
I've compared Birds numbers from his lost series' to Lebron's. As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about
Basileus777
Member
Bird had numerous playoff failures, It's his biggest flaw when it comes to ranking the top 10 ten all-time. Bird had a nice 4 year run with 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that he had a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, he had 7 losses with home court advantage.
Lebron's first couple years he didn't even make the playoffs. So 80-83 is more excusable. Plus, 81 was a chip, no? So calling that a playoff failure is a little silly. 88-92 - he was failing due to injury. That's an entirely different issue altogether.
If your response is predicated on a faulty assumption of my research, just don't post. Your post consists of a totally unproven claim and then a conclusion based on that. That's worthless, even for you
It's hard to rank Wilt based on his crazy numbers against mostly poor competition. I know he would still be great today just based off of his physical abilities alone, but I had to take his lack of championship success into account for my ranking. I understand rings are a team accomplishment, I just think the most dominate big of his era, the consensus best player of all time before Jordan, should have won more than two championships.
You can't really compare Wilt and Hakeem's numbers when Dream played in a much more athletic and talented era.
Do you think Hakeem wouldn't dominate Wilt's era of basketball with at least similar numbers?
Again, I want to express that this is my opinion before any more people are offended by my rankings. I agree that you can't really rank players who played in wildly different eras for multiple reasons, but you can't tell me that you all haven't thought of your own.
Top 10 lists are supposed to be fun :'(
It would make sense than a Kobe slobberer would put Wilt over guys who consistently gave a shit about more than stats and how he looked to the media.
Al fucking Jefferson would average 35-40 ppg if you stuck him in wilt's place and let him jack shots anytime he wanted. The 50 ppg season and the assists season if anything are marks against wilt because they just prove haters right that all he cared is how he looked.
That said comparing players across eras is insane.
In the 60s there was so much less talent but the talent was concentrated on just a few teams. Not to mention lack of 3pt line.
In the 70's and 80's almost NOONE played defense. People act as if the 80's was "tough" fundamental bball. Most teams back then didn't even have consistent rules to defending pick and rolls I mean fuck!
Sure if you teleported prime era Duncan/Shaq/Lebron/Kobe to the 1960s they would have crushed the rest of the league. That still doesn't mean shit because if they grew up to play in the 60s they wouldn't have modern training/diet/travel/Medical treatment. Yeah you can say they would have had the talent to play and be great but the actual execution of day to day life leading to games is just too different.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Lebron is better than Bird. I would also say that Garnett and Dirk have both surpassed Bird as well, as far as rankings go.
First one I can get, but the rest.. SMFH
theignoramus
Member
Coach Nick points out that Miami's strategy of trapping the ball handler on Indiana's high p&r with Hibbert is killing them, cause they have no one big enough stop Hibbert when he rolls and catches the ball in the paint.
So lets see if Coach Spo adjusts that strategy tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHXfc3UlNfY
I was wrong about Indiana last series and I wanted MIA to stomp 'em out this series, but Im coming around on them. I think I can stomache fuckball in the Finals more than I can a team with Dwayne Wade and Shane Battier.
So lets see if Coach Spo adjusts that strategy tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHXfc3UlNfY
I was wrong about Indiana last series and I wanted MIA to stomp 'em out this series, but Im coming around on them. I think I can stomache fuckball in the Finals more than I can a team with Dwayne Wade and Shane Battier.
Starphoenix
Member
I went to bed thinking the Spurs were done, how wrong I was. So excited they are up 3-0, always said if they could manage to win one in Memphis they'd wrap this series up. The Spurs are playing like their old selves again. If they continue to get better, than they have a small window to win it all. Either way I'm excited for the Finals! Let's go Spurs!
Smh @ that Wade flop. But yeah, Miami needs to stop doubling so hard on the PnR ball handler. Hibbert and West are doing a lot of damage when they catch it inside.
Also, bballbreakdown is such a great channel. Love Coach Nick's live postgame shows.
theignoramus
Member
I have a feeling there will be no adjustment on that end, cause Coach Spo will want to continue to pounce on Indy's weak guard play and try to force turnovers. he isnt a good enough coach to see that that strategy is fool's gold.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
He's right. Memphis should be winning this series. Fluke free throw % tanking
Barack Lesnar
Banned
1. MJ
2. Kobe (If he can 2 more rings he'd be #1, debatable with 1 more ring as well)
3. Dream
4. Magic
5. Timmy
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
You're trolling, right?
tekumseh
a mass of phermones, hormones and adrenaline just waiting to explode
The numbers don't really bear that out. Jordan was 50-33-85% for his career, while James is 48-33-75% for his career so far. Bryant is 45-33-83% for his career as well. The key difference, and it is an enormous one, is that both Bryant and, particularly, Jordan are easily superior defenders to James.
I FEEL LIKE IM TAKING CRAZY PILLS
I am Michael Bolton
Banned
Is list wars normal here? Also, what's this cowsrd wagon?
tekumseh
a mass of phermones, hormones and adrenaline just waiting to explode
Not a chance. Bird had 3 season of what I would describe as perfect numbers for a shooter, and by that I mean, 50-40-90%. James also has only had 600+ rebounds in 2 seasons. Bird only had FEWER than 600 rebounds in 2 seasons, and in those years, he played 45 and 60 games. James is a fantastic player, but he's not Bird yet...
tekumseh
a mass of phermones, hormones and adrenaline just waiting to explode
You can argue that it's a popularity contest, but Bryant has 12 1st or 2nd all defensive team selections, while James has 5. Bryant's defensive win shares number is also higher than James.