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2013 NBA Playoffs |OT3| Don't believe the pipe

M

MorisUkunRasik

Member
There were years when Magic wasn't the best player in the league either and those early MJ years were rough. Bron got swept in the finals and then got Dirk'd. These are men, not gods.

Accept that your favorite player wasn't the best all the time forever.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
giri said:
I think you can justify that somewhat though.

He mightn't been the most valuable player to HIS team.

But MVP has become about being the best player in the league. So...
Click to expand...


It has always been best player on one of the better teams

No player has won flatout tho
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Vahagn said:
that's one guy. Everyone else voted for Bron. So sports journalists are stupid because one guy voted for Melo? The overwhelming majority got it right right?


Same thing in 2009 when the overwhelming majority considered it a Kobe/Lebron debate.


And you guys didn't catch the argument about breath of careers and all that. I said Kobe 2009>Wade 2009. But if Wade 2009 happened in 2010 than Wade 2009>Kobe 2010. Unfortunately it didn't, and both players had more injury concerns and missed games in 2010 than they did in 2009 so Kobe was better than Wade each individual year.


But 2009 Wade was better than 5-7 of Kobe's years in his career, just not better than 2009 Kobe.
Click to expand...
Well then what is your point?
 
V

Vahagn

Member
MorisUkunRasik said:
There were years when Magic wasn't the best player in the league either and those early MJ years were rough. Bron got swept in the finals and then got Dirk'd. These are men, not gods.

Accept that your favorite player wasn't the best all the time forever.
Click to expand...

He wasn't. His early years 96-2000 he wasn't. 2004-2005 He had a lot of injuries, didn't play that well and the team was pretty bad. But, partly due to the injuries that Wade and McGrady have dealt with throughout their careers, and partly due to the weakness of the SG position in the last decade after those two guys, Kobe getting 11 ALL NBA 1st team selections seems right. You can argue he was the best SG in the league 11 times out of 17 years.


Wade 2009 was his best season, and I used to argue I was more impressed with him than Lebron that year...but Kobe was the consensus best player in the world then. The numbers difference was classic stacked team vs. bad team comparisons. Best team in the league that year (they won the chip and beat Bos/Cle in the reg season) vs. a middle of the pack team.


Blackace said:
Well then what is your point?
Click to expand...

Exactly what I said. There was no overall year where Wade was better than Kobe. Of course he's had years that were better than other Kobe's years...it just never played out where he was better than Kobe in the same year. Just the way things played out.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Vahagn said:
He wasn't. His early years 96-2000 he wasn't. 2004-2005 He had a lot of injuries, didn't play that well and the team was pretty bad. But, partly due to the injuries that Wade and McGrady have dealt with throughout their careers, and partly due to the weakness of the SG position in the last decade after those two guys, Kobe getting 11 ALL NBA 1st team selections seems right. You can argue he was the best SG in the league 11 times out of 17 years.


Wade 2009 was his best season, and I used to argue I was more impressed with him than Lebron that year...but Kobe was the consensus best player in the world then. The numbers difference was classic stacked team vs. bad team comparisons. Best team in the league that year (they won the chip and beat Bos/Cle in the reg season) vs. a middle of the pack team.
Click to expand...

SG is a weak position but really? All NBA-team?

And the consensus was LBJ was the best player in the world
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Blackace said:
SG is a weak position but really? All NBA-team?

And the consensus was LBJ was the best player in the world
Click to expand...

No the consensus in 2010 was he was the best in the world. In 2009 it was debate-able but most NBA people thought Kobe was still the best. The Olympics gold medal game and the 2008 MVP was still fresh in people's minds. Lebron got the MVP because of better record at the end of the season, but there was still the debate going on throughout the season and most people still thought it was Kobe. But whatever, the point is, it wasn't Wade.


In 2010 it was settled Bron was the best.
 
T

The Frankman

Banned
So Vogel said Miami is using a tougher scheme against Roy Hibbert than the Knicks are...

nba_a_battier_hibbert_b1_400.jpg


boy I'll say they are!
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Vahagn said:
No the consensus in 2010 was he was the best in the world. In 2009 it was debate-able but most NBA people thought Kobe was still the best. The Olympics gold medal game and the 2008 MVP was still fresh in people's minds. Lebron got the MVP because of better record at the end of the season, but there was still the debate going on throughout the season and most people still thought it was Kobe. But whatever, the point is, it wasn't Wade.


In 2010 it was settled Bron was the best.
Click to expand...
No it really wasn't... Kobe had his rings and respect but was on a stacked team and LBJ played with Mo Williams
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Blackace said:
No it really wasn't... Kobe had his rings and respect but was on a stacked team and LBJ played with Mo Williams
Click to expand...

That's cool you can have your opinion. But I'm telling you what the majority of the discussions were back then. Kobe was considered the best for most of the season and then when Lebron ended up with a better record by a few games he got the MVP and was thought to have supplanted Kobe. It see-sawed back to Kobe after Kobe won the chip though and Lebron lost in the ECF.


There was that whole Most Valuable Puppets campaign and everything and a national debate. In 2010 Lebron took another step up and became the undisputed best till he flamed out against Boston and got criticized again.


The first time that Lebron was considered the consensus best player in the league from opening day to the end of the Finals was last year. Before that there were always questions when the playoffs came around and the season ended.

It was "It's Lebron...Oh wait, it's still Kobe"..."It's Lebron!...Oh wait, no it's not it's still Kobe"..."It's Lebron!...Oh wait, holy shit maybe it's Dirk"


thekad said:
Lmao
Click to expand...


You're the guy who said Harden was super efficient while he was going through a 2 month slump of shooting 40% from the field. Not 46% which you're laughing at, but 40% So clearly, you need to up your trolling game
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Don't act like I wasn't watching basketball back then
And LBJ was given the greatest basketball player crown well before that season well before he earned it
 
D

diehard

Fleer
Vahagn said:
You're the guy who said Harden was super efficient while he was going through a 2 month slump of shooting 40% from the field. Not 46% which you're laughing at, but 40% So clearly, you need to up your trolling game
Click to expand...

I think he is laughing at you saying Harden shot way worse than Kobe.

Harden had a 60% TS%, Kobe's was 57%.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
giri said:
at this hour? i thought you were a full time DJ?

Real jobs suck.
Click to expand...

Couldn't be a full time DJ because of visa problems but just got my perm residency the other day
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Blackace said:
Don't act like I wasn't watching basketball back then
And LBJ was given the greatest basketball player crown well before that season well before he earned it
Click to expand...

The stat guys were giving him that crown back in 2006. They're irrelevant. Their opinions are fine, but they represented a small group in the basketball community and hardly represented the consensus. 2011 was the first time from October - June that Lebron was considered the consensus best player in the world by the vast majority of the stat guys, reporters, fans, coaches, basketball players, commentators, etc. Before that, people would always change their mind once the playoffs ended and someone else outplayed and beat him.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
dIEHARD said:
I think he is laughing at you saying Harden shot way worse than Kobe.

Harden had a 60% TS%, Kobe's was 57%.
Click to expand...

Harden was a 43% FG Kobe was a 46%. So yes, he did shoot way worse from the field. The discussions up to that point referenced Wade and Harden's FG%, so that's what I discussed.
 
N

Nori Chan

Member
so lets get off topic here cause vag is being vag

What are you guys currently playing? I'm trying to level up in raid mode in the new resident evil game for 3sexty
 
D

diehard

Fleer
Vahagn said:
Harden was a 43% FG Kobe was a 46%. So yes, he did shoot way worse from the field. The discussions up to that point referenced Wade and Harden's FG%, so that's what I discussed.
Click to expand...

I like how you are all about how difficult a shot is, then ignore stuff like eFG%.
 
Blackace

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Vahagn said:
The stat guys were giving him that crown back in 2006. They're irrelevant. Their opinions are fine, but they represented a small group in the basketball community and hardly represented the consensus. 2011 was the first time from October - June that Lebron was considered the consensus best player in the world by the vast majority of the stat guys, reporters, fans, coaches, basketball players, commentators, etc. Before that, people would always change their mind once the playoffs ended and someone else outplayed and beat him.
Click to expand...

It's not like ESPN has been selling LBJ since 2006 so in short you are wrong
 
V

Vahagn

Member
dIEHARD said:
I like how you are all about how difficult a shot is, then ignore stuff like eFG%.
Click to expand...

I was just trying to stay consistent with the arguments being presented. But yes, Harden did shoot a higher TS% and a higher eFG%. And yes I am more a fan of eFG% and TS% but only when the difference is because of a substantial difference in 3pt% or FT% and not attempts.
 
G

giri

Member
Nori Chan said:
so lets get off topic here cause vag is being vag

What are you guys currently playing? I'm trying to level up in raid mode in the new resident evil game for 3sexty
Click to expand...

I'm playing the sleeping game.

And star craft 2.

Cause i'm a pro-gamer Maens.
 
D

dalVlatko

Member
Bill Simmons sounded mad about NBA Countdown on the BS Report

"We don't have time to talk about anything because its 90% commercials"

I wonder if he'll back on it next year
 
D

diehard

Fleer
Vahagn said:
I was just trying to stay consistent with the arguments being presented. But yes, Harden did shoot a higher TS% and a higher eFG%. And yes I am more a fan of eFG% and TS% but only when the difference is because of a substantial difference in 3pt% or FT% and not attempts.
Click to expand...

32.4% vs 36.8% is substantial.
 
T

Tragicomedy

Member
Vahagn said:
But 2009 Wade was better than 5-7 of Kobe's years in his career, just not better than 2009 Kobe.
Click to expand...

Except that he was, statistically and otherwise. The fact that you refuse to admit it despite me having posted cold, hard facts is a different issue altogether.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that Wade wasn't better that year, it doesn't harm me one way or the other. Just realize that everyone else on here is disagreeing with you not from a personal vendetta, but because you're dead wrong.

Your argument so far: "KOBEKOBEKOBEKOBEKOBE!"
 
I

I am Michael Bolton

Banned
Vahagn said:
He wasn't. His early years 96-2000 he wasn't. 2004-2005 He had a lot of injuries, didn't play that well and the team was pretty bad. But, partly due to the injuries that Wade and McGrady have dealt with throughout their careers, and partly due to the weakness of the SG position in the last decade after those two guys, Kobe getting 11 ALL NBA 1st team selections seems right. You can argue he was the best SG in the league 11 times out of 17 years.


Wade 2009 was his best season, and I used to argue I was more impressed with him than Lebron that year...but Kobe was the consensus best player in the world then. The numbers difference was classic stacked team vs. bad team comparisons. Best team in the league that year (they won the chip and beat Bos/Cle in the reg season) vs. a middle of the pack team.


Exactly what I said. There was no overall year where Wade was better than Kobe. Of course he's had years that were better than other Kobe's years...it just never played out where he was better than Kobe in the same year. Just the way things played out.
Click to expand...

Going by all NBA first team isn't the greatest benchmark to measure who is a greater player. So often these awards are popularity contests. Kobe getting all defensive team year in year out proves that.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Tragicomedy said:
Except that he was, statistically and otherwise. The fact that you refuse to admit it despite me having posted cold, hard facts is a different issue altogether.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that Wade wasn't better that year, it doesn't harm me one way or the other. Just realize that everyone else on here is disagreeing with you not from a personal vendetta, but because you're dead wrong.

Your argument so far: "KOBEKOBEKOBEKOBEKOBE!"
Click to expand...


Sigh. Not otherwise, because otherwise the consensus was Kobe was better league wide. As for the statistics, how does inflated stats on a bad team mean nothing to you? Wade hasn't been able to put up those kind of stats on any other regular season campaign besides 09 and 10. When he had a bad team.


He was statistically slightly better due to being on a bad team. He wasn't a better player. You can choose to ignore that basic argument that the vast majority of people in 2009 agreed with and considered Kobe/Lebron to be the debate. Or you can bury your head in the sand and refuse to look at any and all evidence other than a stat-line ignoring the difference in team play.

Here's something to consider:

Player A: 31.4 ppg 7.0 rbg 6.6 apg 1.6 spg 0.8 bpg
Player B: 26.7 ppg 7.5 rbg 7.0 apg 1.6 spg 0.6 bpg

Is player B better? And if so, how much better
 
P

ph33nix

MWO
I like how Wade's FG was high this year cause he got to cherry pick and take easy shots

but yet when it was just him and everyone knew the offense was going through him, his percentage would fall below kobe's....oh wait no it didn't
 
I

I am Michael Bolton

Banned
ph33nix said:
I like how Wade's FG was high this year cause he got to cherry pick and take easy shots

but yet when it was just him and everyone knew the offense was going through him, his percentage would fall below kobe's....oh wait no it didn't
Click to expand...

To be fair to Kobe, dude takes some ridiculous shots but much of the time it's due to his team simply not showing up. Also, Kobe's FG% is right up there with some of the best SG's in history. Just so happens that MJ was such a freak of nature that the rest of the great SG's pale in comparison in regards to accuracy.
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
dalVlatko said:
Bill Simmons sounded mad about NBA Countdown on the BS Report

"We don't have time to talk about anything because its 90% commercials"

I wonder if he'll back on it next year
Click to expand...
Why the fuck would we want to hear them anyway? Magic is an idiot and Wilbon is just there to suck him off and call him Earvin like they're friends.
 
B

Barack Lesnar

Banned
Vahagn said:
So were the statistics. Again, not a single person can find me one even somewhat legitimate article where any respectable person said Wade was better back then.


That was his best season, by far, but Kobe-Lebron was the debate. Wade was a distant 3rd that year.
Click to expand...

He's right. People aren't looking at it in the context of that season, they're looking back at it in retrospect from the future while ignoring how it really went down at that time. Nobody was talking about Wade > Kobe that year, no one. It was Kobe/LeBron all day.
 
P

ph33nix

MWO
I am Michael Bolton said:
To be fair to Kobe, dude takes some ridiculous shots but much of the time it's due to his team simply not showing up. Also, Kobe's FG% is right up there with some of the best SG's in history. Just so happens that MJ was such a freak of nature that the rest of the great SG's pale in comparison in regards to accuracy.
Click to expand...

Wade played on a team 2 years in a row where the 2nd option was Michael Beasley

Teammates not showing up isn't an excuse
 
V

Vahagn

Member
ph33nix said:
I like how Wade's FG was high this year cause he got to cherry pick and take easy shots

but yet when it was just him and everyone knew the offense was going through him, his percentage would fall below kobe's....oh wait no it didn't
Click to expand...

FG efficiency is a relatively new obsession. There was a time that scoring 30 a game was the definition of a good scorer. So players tried to score 30. That's how you got good contracts. Now teams aren't looking for 30 ppg scorers, they're looking for higher efficiency scorers. So players play this way.


Kobe was regularly hitting 45-46% per game when the other great scorers like AI and TMac were shooting below 45% regularly. Congrats to Wade for shooting a higher FG%, but he's a worse 3 pt shooter and a worse free throw shooter than Kobe. So great way to cherry pick some stats.


ph33nix said:
Wade played on a team 2 years in a row where the 2nd option was Michael Beasley

Teammates not showing up isn't an excuse
Click to expand...

Much worse FT shooter and 3 pt shooter than Ball-Hog Kobe. So yes, Higher FG%, Lower everything else %
 
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