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[KiwiLannister]

Not sure LeBron has even been better than Curry in the series after Game 5.

LeBron is putting up volume scoring and system assists. He hasn't been making particularly outstanding passes, and his assists aren't magically pulling points out of hopeless-looking possessions like what Nash would do. He's just holding the ball so much that he puts up volume assists over the course of the game.

This is just embarrassing.

People still talking about Lebron like he was their high school bully and being completely unable to accept that he is an all time great player. You guys seriously cling on to any excuse possible to discredit him. Does he have to average 40-10-10 on 65% TS for you to respect him? smh.

 

[piratethingy]

He's had great spurts and moments when the Dubs needed it but has he been consistently the best player in the series? Even close?



The award is voted on by the media. And if anything having LeBron win MVP while his team goes down in flames gives the media more of a story to keep talking about all summer. It's a great narrative for the likes of Skip Bayless and SAS, ect...

The Finals MVP, like the regular season MVP, is very narrative driven for this reason. I could absolutely see if LeBron has another 40 point/Triple Double type game in games 6 or 7 (if it goes that far) them giving him the award, short of Steph Curry having himself a couple of 40 point games. It's very much in them (the media) to do something like that for the story.

Duh, I'm an idiot.

Although another good game from Curry and "is he the greatest shooter of all time?" is a pretty decent narrative to talk about all summer too.

But yeah media voting makes a lot more sense for a potential Lebron win, absolutely correct.

Spoiler

I apologize for admitting to being wrong about something in this thread.

 

[Siegcram]

The very thought of Igoudala hoisting a finals mvp trophy is straight up bizarre.

 

[offtopic]

Who has been everyone's next most impactful player in the series besides LeBron and Curry? I know Iggy will get a lot of votes (and rightfully so) but I think it has been Mozgov because his presence has shaped what we currently see on the floor.

Kerr is getting lauded for going small but I think he was forced to do so for a large degree because of Mozgov. Bogut has been fantastic all season and is a great rim protector but, lets face it, has been outclassed by Mozgov in this series. When Bogut plays then so can Mozgov and he just does everything better. With Bogut out he has to match up with an outside player which is a difficult task.

However, I think the Cavs should just go back to what they did some of in Game 4 (in spite of the final score of that game) and just put Mozgov out there and let Iggy shoot all game long. If Iggy beats you shooting so be it but otherwise you play on your terms. Timo is a beast.

 

[offtopic]

Iggy isn't a rising star tho.

If the Finals MVP must go to the winner, it'll go to him deservedly.

Curry has been a scoring machine, but it's Iggy's defensive stops and key plays that has helped the Warriors win those 3 games and help keep those 2 losses close.

Without Iggy they'd just have to double LeBron more and make Deli beat them from outside. That isn't a bad strategy either.

 

[piratethingy]

Without Iggy they'd just have to double LeBron more and make Deli beat them from outside. That isn't a bad strategy either.

Idk man Iggy has been the only person on that team who appears capable of guarding Lebron in any meaningful way for more than a play or two at a time.

Edit: and I'm not saying they couldn't beat the Cavs without him, more that I think it's weird to discount his awesome contributions to their series just because their roster is so much deeper that they could probably find another way if he weren't there.

 

[Kwhit10]

Yes LeBron makes his teammates better too.... Cavs offense when Bron didn't score or give assist on the shot is shooting 32%.

Through game 4.

 

[gcubed]

Only Lebron is good enough to get a trophy for 2nd place

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Who has been everyone's next most impactful player in the series besides LeBron and Curry? I know Iggy will get a lot of votes (and rightfully so) but I think it has been Mozgov because his presence has shaped what we currently see on the floor.

Kerr is getting lauded for going small but I think he was forced to do so for a large degree because of Mozgov. Bogut has been fantastic all season and is a great rim protector but, lets face it, has been outclassed by Mozgov in this series. When Bogut plays then so can Mozgov and he just does everything better. With Bogut out he has to match up with an outside player which is a difficult task.

However, I think the Cavs should just go back to what they did some of in Game 4 (in spite of the final score of that game) and just put Mozgov out there and let Iggy shoot all game long. If Iggy beats you shooting so be it but otherwise you play on your terms. Timo is a beast.

I'd give Tristan Thompson the nod for the Cavs. He's been wreaking havoc on the Warriors frontline.

 

[piratethingy]

Only Lebron is good enough to get a trophy for 2nd place

Besides the fact that it's happened before.

Spoiler

Technically.

 

[offtopic]

They started double teaming in game 4. And did constantly in game 5. His usage rate took almost a 10 percentage point dive after. What are you on about?

http://fat.gfycat.com/PointedActiveIndigowingedparrot.webm
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....e-and-the-art-of-double-teaming-lebron-james/

They bring infrequent double teams to just mix it up but it isn't a constant sustained effort to remove the ball from his hands on every play (Steph sees far more doubles as a percent of possession). His astronomical usage rate has also dropped because they need to give him a blow on some possessions so they just have Delli bring it up before handing it over to him.

I'm still perplexed as to why the warriors don't light press every time LeBron brings it up. The one time they did it last night they forced an 8 second (I do realize that he didn't get the ball at 24 seconds). Make him work physically and mentally even harder on every possession. This doesn't compromise much and you can rotate who does it so they don't get tired. If LeBron decides to try and blow by the light pressure well, now you have them playing at the pace you want them to play at and you are forcing a huge expenditure of energy from LeBron.

 

[offtopic]

I'd give Tristan Thompson the nod for the Cavs. He's been wreaking havoc on the Warriors frontline.

Tristan has been fantastic but he didn't single handedly force Bogut off the floor like Mozgov did. I do think that that Curry shouldn't ever give up the ball when he switches on to him though. Bring him away from the rim, make a play or take a 3.

 

[piratethingy]

They bring infrequent double teams to just mix it up but it isn't a constant sustained effort to remove the ball from his hands on every play (Steph sees far more doubles as a percent of possession). His astronomical usage rate has also dropped because they need to give him a blow on some possessions so they just have Delli bring it up before handing it over to him.

I'm still perplexed as to why the warriors don't light press every time LeBron brings it up. The one time they did it last night they forced an 8 second (I do realize that he didn't get the ball at 24 seconds). Make him work physically and mentally even harder on every possession. This doesn't compromise much and you can rotate who does it so they don't get tired. If LeBron decides to try and blow by the light pressure well, now you have them playing at the pace you want them to play at and you are forcing a huge expenditure of energy from LeBron.

Yeah I mean why not just have Livingston and Iggy trade off and just go total Deli style hyperactive high school hustle defense and just annoy/drain the shit out of Lebron?

Idk what the Cavs could possibly do in response. Once again, Deli is not close to a competent enough ball handler and passer to run an NBA offense in the finals.

 

[rambis]

They bring infrequent double teams to just mix it up but it isn't a constant sustained effort to remove the ball from his hands on every play (Steph sees far more doubles as a percent of possession). His astronomical usage rate has also dropped because they need to give him a blow on some possessions so they just have Delli bring it up before handing it over to him.

I'm still perplexed as to why the warriors don't light press every time LeBron brings it up. The one time they did it last night they forced an 8 second (I do realize that he didn't get the ball at 24 seconds). Make him work physically and mentally even harder on every possession. This doesn't compromise much and you can rotate who does it so they don't get tired. If LeBron decides to try and blow by the light pressure well, now you have them playing at the pace you want them to play at and you are forcing a huge expenditure of energy from LeBron.

This seems like an half assed attempt at justifying your factually wrong position. There's been a consistent, noticeable effort to double him since the game 4.

And they don't do it every possession because they are getting drained from guarding him.

[That defense on LeBron takes a toll on the Warriors defenders as well (which makes Iguodala’s good shooting night in Game 4 even more impressive.

“(LeBron’s physicality) definitely takes your legs out, that’s when your shots come up a little short,” Harrison Barnes said. “That’s why I’ve focused this series to make sure I’ve got a wide base and get the shot up.”

The warriors are starting to look just as worn as the Cavs by the end of games. We see what happened to Steph with his dehydration. Its not as simple as doing something more that significantly drains your body.

 

[gcubed]

This seems like an half assed attempt at justifying your factually wrong position. There's been a consistent, noticeable effort to double him since the game 4.

And they don't do it every possession because they are getting drained from guarding him.

Agreed. Every time Lebron is anywhere near the basket he gets an extra guy rotated on to him since game 4. It's stayed longer that because the Cavs have no one to make the warriors pay for leaving someone open

The warriors are starting to look just as worn as the Cavs by the end of games. We see what happened to Steph with his dehydration. Its not as simple as doing something more that significantly drains your body.

Sure, I mean, besides outscoring them by 12+ every single game in the fourth, just as tired

 

[offtopic]

This seems like an half assed attempt at justifying your factually wrong position. There's been a consistent, noticeable effort to double him since the game 4.

And they don't do it every possession because they are getting drained from guarding him.

Uh, LeBron is consistently backing down mismatches off of switches (like Thompson) and they still aren't bringing help. it is actually confusing to me because I'd just leave Delli and JR open every time LeBron gets position near the rim. Misses from those guys generate fast breaks especially since JR typically stands around watching after he shoots.

 

[rambis]

Uh, LeBron is consistently backing down mismatches off of switches (like Thompson) and they still aren't bringing help. it is actually confusing to me because I'd just leave Delli and JR open every time LeBron gets position near the rim. Misses from those guys generate fast breaks especially since JR typically stands around watching after he shoots.

I guess I am just imagining shit. Oh wait...

Agreed. Every time Lebron is anywhere near the basket he gets an extra guy rotated on to him since game 4. It's stayed longer that because the Cavs have no one to make the warriors pay for leaving someone open

Sure, I mean, besides outscoring them by 12+ every single game in the fourth, just as tired

Good offensive players can still somewhat score on dead legs. Outscoring the 7 deep Cabs isn't really saying much.

 

[Kieli]

Lebron would be 0-0 if he played in the west.

Lebron would be 5-0 in the West.

He'd start an unstoppable dynasty with the SAS. Or maybe he would be on Clippers/Rockets and be insta-contenders.

Or maybe he goes to NOH and mentors Anthony Davis to become the next Basketball God.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Yes LeBron makes his teammates better too.... Cavs offense when Bron didn't score or give assist on the shot is shooting 32%.

Through game 4.

At least YNB made it look entertaining.

 

[offtopic]

I guess I am just imagining shit. Oh wait...

Yes, the opinion of some other random GAFr is definitely proof that you are right. The Warriors simply aren't rotating doubles on to him in any situation with any regularity.

 

[Fjordson]

Imagine Lebron on Golden State. Kicking out to the two best shooters on the planet

Small ball lineup with Draymond at the 5 and Lebron at the 4

 

[Kieli]

Imagine Lebron on Golden State. Kicking out to the two best shooters on the planet

Small ball lineup with Draymond at the 5 and Lebron at the 4

You're goddamit right.

*thumbs up*

 

[gcubed]

Yes, the opinion of some other random GAFr is definitely proof that you are right. The Warriors simply aren't rotating doubles on to him in any situation with any regularity.

I'm no random gaffer, I'm gcubed

 

[rambis]

Yes, the opinion of some other random GAFr is definitely proof that you are right. The Warriors simply aren't rotating doubles on to him in any situation with any regularity.

Not sure if serious. I mean, do you think you aren't some random GAFr? What proof have you even begun to show??

I just posted an article that had players explaining how they are doubling him and how much of a toll its taking. Along with gifs. I can probably find more examples if you are really pressed.

 

[Fjordson]

GS is definitely bringing more doubles on Lebron. Not every time, they're trying to be at least a little unpredictable on D I'm guessing, but they're there. More so than the first two games for sure.

 

[gcubed]

GS is definitely bringing more doubles on Lebron. Not every time, they're trying to be at least a little unpredictable on D I'm guessing, but they're there. More so than the first two games for sure.

Two random gaffers is a quorum. Reality smashed

 

[offtopic]

Two random gaffers is a quorum. Reality smashed

Yes, more double is more than none. I agree that he is seeing more. The article linked initially doesn't quantify it (unless I just missed it).

 

[offtopic]

Not sure if serious. I mean, do you think you aren't some random GAFr? What proof have you even begun to show??

I just posted an article that had players explaining how they are doubling him and how much of a toll its taking. Along with gifs. I can probably find more examples if you are really pressed.

Never said I wasn't some random gaf'r.

Your article offers nothing to substantiate your point. The most a player said was (Iggy about Klay) - "So it was more surprises. Klay had a few random double teams that we didn’t even talk about as a scheme"

I do think they are doubling "more" but still infrequent. I would double him every time he started backing someone within 8 feet of the rim. JR and Delli are free to try and win the game.

 

[Fjordson]

I don't think they want to throw the same look at Lebron every time down the floor. He'll start to figure it out and you give the Cleveland role players enough shots and they're bound to hit some.

Lebron is shooting 39% in the last 5 games, GS just needs to stay the course imo.

 

[offtopic]

I don't think they want to throw the same look at Lebron every time down the floor. He'll start to figure it out and you give the Cleveland role players enough shots and they're bound to hit some.

Lebron is shooting 39% in the last 5 games, GS just needs to stay the course imo.

I mostly agree with that but I would throw bodies at him and harass him if he brings the ball up and I would double once he gets to the post. Otherwise, his numbers are inefficient enough to not be that meaningful as long as the Warriors are knocking down their shots.

 

[Kwhit10]

At least YNB made it look entertaining.

But he only impacted his team by 4% while Bron is at 17%

 

[rambis]

Never said I wasn't some random gaf'r.

Your article offers nothing to substantiate your point. The most a player said was (Iggy about Klay) - "So it was more surprises. Klay had a few random double teams that we didn’t even talk about as a scheme"

I do think they are doubling "more" but still infrequent. I would double him every time he started backing someone within 8 feet of the rim. JR and Delli are free to try and win the game.

Ask and you shall receive.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...avs-can-make-to-win-game-5-of-the-nba-finals/

http://www.vantagesports.com/story/...o-golden-state-as-they-take-a-3-2-series-lead

Adapt to the Warriors’ strategy change
The Warriors made a big adjustment in the way they guarded James. In the previous three games, they had double teamed him a total of seven times, including twice on isolations. But in Game 4, the Warriors double teamed him ten times, including five times on isolations. This kept the ball out of James’s hand.

Expect the Warriors to also continue their double-teaming strategy. In the first three games, the Warriors averaged only 1.78 Double-Teams per 100 Chances. In Game 4, this rate skyrocketed to 12.5.

This doesn't even go into the help situations that he saw every other postups.

The Warriors had a tremendous Effective Help Rate of 75 percent, compared to Cleveland's 45 percent.

Game 5

Double-Teams per 100 Chances: Golden State, 9.77 - Cleveland, 3.36.

Strange, wasn't it you that said curry was getting doubled more?

I will wait till you post anything to substantiate your argument, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Fjordson]

Curry is getting two guys thrown at him on basically every pick & roll, but I don't know what the criteria is in these stats for an official double team. A lot of times he's passing away quickly and that second defender drops off.

 

[rambis]

Curry is getting two guys thrown at him on basically every pick & roll, but I don't know what the criteria is in these stats for an official double team. A lot of times he's passing away quickly and that second defender drops off.

Difference is, Lebron holds the ball and tries to make a play; Curry actually has one or even two options with Iggy to let handle the ball and he gives it up more often.

 

[MetalFearSolid]

Well this gif will be useful when Curry hits future 3s.

 

[Godslay]

Well this gif will be useful when Curry hits future 3s.

That lady looks like that female gremlin.

 

[Stat Flow]

So Klay needs to hit 3 more 3s so Reggie will go from 1 to 3 in one playoffs. Splash Bros keep splashin.

 

[Fjordson]

That lady looks like that female gremlin.

Hating on Sonya Curry...

 

[offtopic]

Curry is getting two guys thrown at him on basically every pick & roll, but I don't know what the criteria is in these stats for an official double team. A lot of times he's passing away quickly and that second defender drops off.

Exactly. Somehow those don't count in the stats rambis listed above which is dumb. The entire point is to force the ball out of his hands and the Warrior philosophy is to move the ball anyways but those are all real double teams. This year teams frequently double teamed Curry as he crossed half court because it is a really bad idea to let him have the ball.

 

[offtopic]

Ask and you shall receive.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...avs-can-make-to-win-game-5-of-the-nba-finals/

http://www.vantagesports.com/story/...o-golden-state-as-they-take-a-3-2-series-lead





This doesn't even go into the help situations that he saw every other postups.



Game 5


Strange, wasn't it you that said curry was getting doubled more?

I will wait till you post anything to substantiate your argument, but I won't hold my breath.

IDK but when LeBron has the ball ISO'd on every possession 5-10 double teams doesn't sound like much. In fact that sort of speaks to my point...they are doubling more but not much. It is more in line with what Iggy had to say about Thompson helping in the first article you linked.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I bet Lebron wishes he never got Jones, Marion and Mike Miller to sign with the cavs. He could've used some live bodies right now.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Yes LeBron makes his teammates better too.... Cavs offense when Bron didn't score or give assist on the shot is shooting 32%.

Through game 4.

Like I said. If Russel Westbrook and the Thunder made it to the finals they'd be the Cavs.

 

[BadAss2961]

Part of me wants to see LeBron get MVP after an L. It would exemplify everything people hate about the guy. All the credit in not only victory, but defeat. Nothing but excuses when he loses. It's everyone elses fault, not his. Let's all feel sorry for our chosen one, the king.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Part of me wants to see LeBron get MVP after an L. It would exemplify everything people hate about the guy. All the credit in not only victory, but defeat. Nothing but excuses when he loses. It's everyone elses fault, not his. Let's all feel sorry for our chosen one, the king.

If he got it, he'd pull some publicity stunt and give it to Tristan Thompson and the naive would say "WHAT A GUY".

 

[rambis]

IDK but when LeBron has the ball ISO'd on every possession 5-10 double teams doesn't sound like much. In fact that sort of speaks to my point...they are doubling more but not much. It is more in line with what Iggy had to say about Thompson helping in the first article you linked.

They aren't calling help scenarios double teams but there were two, sometimes three bodies sliding into position on lebrons post ups. Versus them letting him go completely one v one in the previous games.

Like I said, there's been an marked increase in the number of double teams and I substantiated this with numbers

 

[Cheebo]

edit: oops

 

[offtopic]

Yes LeBron makes his teammates better too.... Cavs offense when Bron didn't score or give assist on the shot is shooting 32%.

Through game 4.

So...LeBron is an inefficient volume shooter with teammates who can't create and Westbrook is a slightly less inefficient volume shooter with better teammates? Yup.

edit: would be fun to see Curry thrown into this comparison as well

 

[Kwhit10]

Like I said. If Russel Westbrook and the Thunder made it to the finals they'd be the Cavs.

But the thunder without russ's involvement had an eFG of 48%, while the Cavs offense without a Bron involvement shoots 32%. Big big difference.

 

[DoktorEvil]

You know who would save LBJ right now? This Guy.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Thunder with only Russ in the East would have gotten to the finals.