Basileus777
Member
8th Tyrion ChapterAzrael said:
The ages don't work. Penny is too old to be Tyrion's daughter.
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A Dance with Dragons |OT| - Read the rules or Melisandre casts magic missile
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
Telosfortelos
Advocate for the People
Can we get people to start labeling spoilers again? Just a little parenthetical that shows chapter, page number, kindle percentage or (full) would be fine for me, just something please. Labeling something "Tyrion spoiler" is not helpful. Most people are of course doing great, and it's a fun thread to follow, even as far behind as I am (save for that one post that discussed being spoiled in a very spoiler-ific way).
Tyrion 4
So far I'm really loving it.
Tyrion 4
This and Bran 2 are my favorite chapters thus far. I loved how atmospheric it was, and as someone discussed on the last page, all of the hints about who's-who were fun, even if the readers had all figured it out from the get go (why would Illyrio care so much for this child of about 16 - that was enough to tell us most everything. Speaking of which, I found Illyrio's farewell in Tyrion 2 really sweet and sad in an unexpected way).
So much of the series has gotten us excited for Dragons, and I feel like much of this book is already about the other, probably heavier side of that coin. I absolutely love how Tyrion 4 naturally illustrated the the devestation and horror that dragons brought on civilizations and economies with beautiful ruins (and calcified zombie people).
So much of the series has gotten us excited for Dragons, and I feel like much of this book is already about the other, probably heavier side of that coin. I absolutely love how Tyrion 4 naturally illustrated the the devestation and horror that dragons brought on civilizations and economies with beautiful ruins (and calcified zombie people).
ZephyrFate
Banned
Hyperbole is definitely the name of your game. This is totally nuts.yacobod said:
PhoenixDark
Banned
ZephyrFate said:
How far are you (in terms of page count), and what are your thoughts thus far Zeph? ASOIAF-GAF vets are making me confused/scared
ZephyrFate said:
Hop into the spoiler thread if you want an honest discussion, i'm not going to bother spoiler tagging all the reasons that potentially could send the series in a downward spiral.
Criticism is not welcome unless everyone is praising the American Tolkein I suppose.
Basileus777
Member
PhoenixDark said:How far are you (in terms of page count), and what are your thoughts thus far Zeph? ASOIAF-GAF vets are making me confused/scared
It's a decent book that unfortunately doesn't do much to move the plot along very much. Combined with AFFC and all of Martin's writing troubles, it indicates that GRRM has lost control of the plot and will not finish this series in 7 books, if it ever is completed at all.
Basileus777
Member
I'll call it being realistic. And I can like this series without fawning over it, especially given the state of it after AFFC and ADWD. I still like it and and I loved the first three books, but there's no interesting discussion to be had talking about that.Emerson said:
cubicle47b
Member
Basileus777 said:
At least you're not as annoying as bluemax.
Blue Ninja
Member
Holy shit, this book is huge. As in, physically huge: it's larger than anything on my shelf.
I'm about one tenth of the way through, now, and I like it so far.
I'm about one tenth of the way through, now, and I like it so far.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I'm about 650 pages in. While nothing has happened, really, the gamechangers and fantastic prose have kept me going. I'd put the book on the exact same level as AFFC, which I equally loved. I can see where the pieces are being placed, and all I know is that The Winds of Winter is going to be twice as epic as ASOS, presuming Martin knows what he's doing.PhoenixDark said:How far are you (in terms of page count), and what are your thoughts thus far Zeph? ASOIAF-GAF vets are making me confused/scared
And I have faith in Martin. The onset of winter has made for something incredible in the books to come.
Brian Fellows
Pete Carroll Owns Me
I just keep wishing that someone would slit Dany's throat or stab her in the heart.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
PhoenixDark said:How far are you (in terms of page count), and what are your thoughts thus far Zeph? ASOIAF-GAF vets are making me confused/scared
The more I think about the north part of the story, the more I like it. The Essos part of the story is 90% crap. I think what happens in the north could elevate this book over AFFC for me. But the rest of the book keep it firmly below the original three.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Honestly, I'll be blunt... if you didn't like AFFC, there's not much chance you'll like ADWD more.
I don't understand the Dany hate either (just like I don't understand the Tyrion hate), then again, I never have, other than maybe in ACOK. She & her chapters have always gotten irrational hate other than when her dragons were born or melted someone's face...Jarmel said:
(Dany-spoilers for the first ~800 pages)
Other than it being kind of annoying how she refuses to use the dragons after finding out Drogon might've eaten a child, her struggle against pretty much all of the Free Cities is an intriguing one. Unless you're impatient and want her to go to the Seven Kingdoms in the first few chapters or something, there are some really good chapters there. The whole time you're thinking how in hell is she going to get out of the shit she's gotten herself into, especially as she seems to be getting into even deeper shit in every single chapter. She's trying to be a good ruler but nothing goes how she wants it to go.
Also, the fuckawesome fighting pit chapter redeems all the things that WERE annoying in her chapters. Such an awesome way to get out of there. It's like after all the crap she's went through while trying to save Meereen, she's just all "fuck it, I'm gettin' outta here flying on my dragon 8)"
Not to even mention, while I didn't like all of that it caused in Dany's behaviour, the whole "Drogon ate a child" thing really brought the kind of... brutality into the dragons that hadn't quite been there. The dragons were always Dany's (somewhat) automatic Win-button in a lot of cases and they were mostly just nasty to her enemies and you could go all "hellz yeah, dragonz babyh!" when they roasted someone who was against Dany. Now we got to see the not-so-awesome side of them. Just like everything else in Westeros/ASOIAF, the dragons are not all happy-happy-joy-joy, but they can come with a price too (they are vile beasts that are hard to control), something that Dany isn't willing to pay, at least not at this point of the story.
Also, the fuckawesome fighting pit chapter redeems all the things that WERE annoying in her chapters. Such an awesome way to get out of there. It's like after all the crap she's went through while trying to save Meereen, she's just all "fuck it, I'm gettin' outta here flying on my dragon 8)"
Not to even mention, while I didn't like all of that it caused in Dany's behaviour, the whole "Drogon ate a child" thing really brought the kind of... brutality into the dragons that hadn't quite been there. The dragons were always Dany's (somewhat) automatic Win-button in a lot of cases and they were mostly just nasty to her enemies and you could go all "hellz yeah, dragonz babyh!" when they roasted someone who was against Dany. Now we got to see the not-so-awesome side of them. Just like everything else in Westeros/ASOIAF, the dragons are not all happy-happy-joy-joy, but they can come with a price too (they are vile beasts that are hard to control), something that Dany isn't willing to pay, at least not at this point of the story.
Also, I agree with the sentiment that this is still more of a Book 4 Part II. AGOT-ACOK-ASOS were the first trilogy and AFFC/ADWD are just the beginning of a second "trilogy" after things winding down after the Red Wedding, Dany conquering Meereen and settling down to rule it etc., so a bit more akin to AGOT in that they are just building into something much, MUCH bigger in books 6 & 7.
That's not to say it's not a great book, but like AFFC it is mostly still building the premises of the upcoming strifes, like AGOT mostly was for ACOK/ASOS.
Blue Ninja
Member
Holy shit. [Page 112]
:lol
I almost couldn't believe it when Jon decided to execute Slynt. Then I remembered, THIS IS GEORGE R.R. MARTIN! Jon's becoming a real Stark. Kill the boy, damn straight.
Eteric Rice
Member
I love that there almost seems to be two game of thrones going on. One between men, and one between the gods.
At around 300 pages in now. Good stuff so far.
At around 300 pages in now. Good stuff so far.
Basileus777
Member
Halycon said:
This is interesting, could you elaborate a bit?
Mormont's raven and Ghost. Odin had two ravens of his own and two wolves as well.Basileus777 said:
All he needs is a spear and a horse and an eyepatch.
(It's mostly a mental imagery kind of thing, obviously their backstories are nothing alike.)
Daenerys chapter 6 spoilers.
The idiot ball Dany has where Daario is concerned continues to be among the worst writing of the series. I'm reaching the point that I hope she gets herself killed. The blood that was covering Daario when he returned probably belonged to the Second Sons.
Really, the writing is just as good as in the first trilogy (oftentimes even better, Martin has developed as a writer, though there are some weaker moments) and (most of) the twists & turns in the story are just as well told & developed as in the first trilogy. And the first trilogy has its problems & weaknesses as well. To me, it just seems like nostalgia has gotten in the way of your judgement ("nothing can ever beat the ORIGINAL three"). Or that you would've wanted the whole book series to be about the Starks & Tyrion & Jaime kicking ass or something...Basileus777 said:
ADWD is in the same place AFFC is in terms of its general story approach: because it does not have the stunning climaxes of ASOS, fans are like annoyed they have to read through all the totally annoying exposition in between. There's no arrival for them. (Edit: ^^ ha @ post above. point proven)
In practice, however, I see no problem but a pacing one. It's an uneven book due to how it works side by side with Feast and even feels like a bit of jogging in place, but as soon as it gets past and works its own threads it is Martin at his best.
The prose can be fierce, the writing is as demanding and tense as ever and there is a shitload that happens in this book - any opinion that claims otherwise is not merely a difference of opinion, it's straight up incorrect.
This book is like AFFC in that it's a ton of world building chapters. And like AFFC, fans reject those worldbuilding chapters as somehow 'excess' that should be 'cut.' It's like the Brienne chapters from AFFC. No doubt the "I am looking for my sister, a fair maid of three-and-ten with auburn hair. Perhaps you've seen her?" was repetitive and a little frustrating when you know she's going the wrong direction, there is a metric fuckton of world building which is, in turn, character building since Westeros is a huge part of the story. It's fascinating to see the interlocking political turmoil and the collapse of the civil structure at the hands of Cersei's paranoia and utter disregard for the needs of the people.
ADWD is the same in many chapters in that even though the major plot strands aren't always being resolved, the world building is positively bursting at the seems. This book is extremely significant, to me, in that it <general ADWD spoilers - not spoilering specific events, but an overall "book plot direction">
It cannot be understated how magnificent a job Martin does in bringing these places to life, and how vital it was for the series that he used one book or another to do it. And as much of this content was supposed to be tandem with AFFC, it makes sense this is the direction it often goes.
HOWEVER, there is still MUCH more meat here and much more stunning moments than in AFFC in general, and provided you don't just hate the worldbuilding, there is no reason why you won't find this to be an amazing book. A lot of the fussing really doesn't make sense to me in the context of what we got. Most of the complaints seem foreign; the writing is fantastic, the plot moves and we can now see with clarity where the tentacles are falling.
In practice, however, I see no problem but a pacing one. It's an uneven book due to how it works side by side with Feast and even feels like a bit of jogging in place, but as soon as it gets past and works its own threads it is Martin at his best.
The prose can be fierce, the writing is as demanding and tense as ever and there is a shitload that happens in this book - any opinion that claims otherwise is not merely a difference of opinion, it's straight up incorrect.
This book is like AFFC in that it's a ton of world building chapters. And like AFFC, fans reject those worldbuilding chapters as somehow 'excess' that should be 'cut.' It's like the Brienne chapters from AFFC. No doubt the "I am looking for my sister, a fair maid of three-and-ten with auburn hair. Perhaps you've seen her?" was repetitive and a little frustrating when you know she's going the wrong direction, there is a metric fuckton of world building which is, in turn, character building since Westeros is a huge part of the story. It's fascinating to see the interlocking political turmoil and the collapse of the civil structure at the hands of Cersei's paranoia and utter disregard for the needs of the people.
ADWD is the same in many chapters in that even though the major plot strands aren't always being resolved, the world building is positively bursting at the seems. This book is extremely significant, to me, in that it <general ADWD spoilers - not spoilering specific events, but an overall "book plot direction">
finally paints the free cities/Valyria/etc with a much smaller, detail-oriented brush. This was a big problem in previous books where it was clear Westeros was given the attention and this other land across the narrow sea was just basically foreign place where people think differently.
It cannot be understated how magnificent a job Martin does in bringing these places to life, and how vital it was for the series that he used one book or another to do it. And as much of this content was supposed to be tandem with AFFC, it makes sense this is the direction it often goes.
HOWEVER, there is still MUCH more meat here and much more stunning moments than in AFFC in general, and provided you don't just hate the worldbuilding, there is no reason why you won't find this to be an amazing book. A lot of the fussing really doesn't make sense to me in the context of what we got. Most of the complaints seem foreign; the writing is fantastic, the plot moves and we can now see with clarity where the tentacles are falling.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Eteric Rice
Member
So has George started the next book, or is he going to troll fans again?
LegendofJoe
Member
Emerson said:
While I'm sure many people shake their head and grimace at this decision I think it is a wise one. It took the man a decade to complete the bridging section of the series, he needs to go into the final stretch with a fresh start. If he is anything like me he will work at a much more efficient pace after taking time to step back from his work for a while and come back to it with a fresh outlook. While I'm sure he did this often while writing Feast and Dragons, an extended break where he isn't feeling pressure to continue working on the series will undoubtedly be good for his psyche.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
LegendofJoe said:
I'm hoping that over the last decade and writing AFFC/ADWD he has a much better idea of where he's going and the last two books will be out in a more timely fashion.
LegendofJoe
Member
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
Only time will tell, but with all the pieces he has lain down in the last 2 books I can't imagine that writing the next 2 will be anywhere near as difficult.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
After thinking some more and reading about a few things I missed. I think the stuff that takes place in the north is some of the best material in the series (an upgrade from the last time I wrote an incredibly similar post). Still not a fan of most of the Essos storyline though.
I haven't finished the book yet, but it seems to me the biggest problem he's having lies in the number of characters and plots going. He just keeps piling more and more viewpoints, and stories in the series, to the point where we needed two books just to tell the events of one timespan from all the needed perspectives. Obviously, Dance might conclude a few of these povs by its end, but it still looks like he has an awful lot of ground to cover. Hopefully, he won't need the eighth book he's been hinting at; at this point, however, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens.
Reance- I do agree with the general sentiment regarding Dany's chapters- it really feels like some editing would have done some good here, but I have to disagree when it comes to Tyrion's. (Minor spoilers- I've read half the book)
Obviously, my perspective on the chapters could change as I continue, but I'm still enjoying them. I will, once again, agree with the consensus when it comes to the best material in the book, though- Bran's chapters are universally entertaining, and Jon and
have been great as well.
Re
ance- I do agree with the general sentiment regarding Dany's chapters- it really feels like some editing would have done some good here, but I have to disagree when it comes to Tyrion's. (Minor spoilers- I've read half the book)
So much happens in them and, even when there isn't a major event, there's a great deal of fleshing out Essos, something we haven't seen in previous books. I will say I'm hoping for more about Valyria, though- I just passed the point where Tyrion discusses it on the ship and it honestly seems a bit like Martin just threw every natural disaster together and called it a day. Really hope there's some insight into WHY and HOW the earth just decided to rain hell on them.
Reek's
Personally, Danny's chapters are just as boring as ever. What a snoozefest.jett said:I'm at page 300-something, and I gotta say that the Daenerys and Tyrion chapters so far are disappointingly boring. I'd be pissed if I had been waiting 11 years for this. Fortunately, that's not the case for me.
At least Tyrion brings a smile to my face now and then.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
Gonna start it now. Just wanna say, the very pale violet color is absolutely gorgeous on the hardcover. I really need to get the rest of the former books in Hardcover.
I must admit that there is a certain romanticism involved with having those papers in your hands. Don't regret getting a Kindle, nor the excitement of buying ADWD it as soon as it went up, but nothing can ever replace that comforting warmth smell that only happens with books.
The Wife and I both finished earlier today. There's nothing too plot-specific, but if anyone feels there's unmarked spoilers, let me know and I'll change it. I read over it twice and didn't see anything that leapt out as being especially spoilery. Spoilers from previous books though, that goes without saying as per the rules.
I halfway agree with Amirox's assessment; world-building is important and I found large parts of it to be fairly interesting. However, it feels like it comes at the expense of actually moving the plot forward far too often. I wouldn't mind the elaborate set descriptions if the actors actually did more than stand in them for long periods of time.
The oft-maligned 'travelogue' Brianne chapters of Feast were at least about Brianne trying to find someone. Moving towards some goal. With Dance, it feels like all the characters are stuck in some sort of literary mud. There needs to be some semblance of movement.
The previous books were boiling away towards things; shit was happening all over the place and all at once. It feels like Feast and Dance have turned the soup down to a simmer and now there's just a layer of fat congealing on the surface. It's still cooking, but it's taking forever. At some point the unending slew of unpronounceable names, strange customs and fanciful dress gets a tad stale, not because they're dull, but because the characters moving through them aren't really... moving through them.
GRRM has said quite a bit that he had trouble getting Dany out of Meereen (the "Meereenese knot" he called it) and it shows. This stands in stark (lol) contrast to the Dany who crawled meekly into Astapor to trade her pet dragon to a bunch of fat, greedy masters for an army of slaves, only to free the slaves, free the dragon, melt the masters and tear the city apart. Where's the Daenerys that did that? The one who crucified people? This entire book felt like a complete 180 from a takes-no-prisoners slave-freeing dragon-mother to kind of a whiny waif. She let people walk all over her and her inaction was a startling contrast from her decisions in the past. And in truth, a lot of it led to more suffering than if she had just set the whole god damned thing to the torch.
Yeah, she needed to feed her children, she needed money to pay her sellswords... but those things were there for the taking. Burn Astapor, Burn Meereen, Burn Yunkai, keep marching. She had no reason to stay in or spare Meereen and it brought her nothing but trouble. She's a dragon; scorched earth goes without saying. Keep marching. All of the Meereen drama was completely out of character.
Otherwise, very few complaints. All of the other characters have their low points, but at least they were moving around a bit. Quite a few shake ups, but they were buried quite a bit. In all honesty the Reek chapters were the most interesting to me because it's from a very unusual point of view and has some pretty screwed up characters.
I viewed the Dorne chapters from Feast to be the least interesting, so, I'm glad that the Dorne-related chapters were kept to a minimum and there was only a single chapter actually in Dorne.
I guess it just feels like GRRM is bored with Westeros and so he's introducing all of these new places and different characters to run parallel with the stories he's established to keep himself interested.
I'm still letting it soak in, and having recently re-read the series earlier this year, I'm not sure where I'd place it. Some great bomb-shells in there that remind me of that old ASoIaF feel, but everything felt sluggish and slowed down; whether because GRRM just didn't know how to move things forward or was too busy describing things, I'm not sure yet... Winter is coming, but at times it feels like nobody is in any kind of rush.
I halfway agree with Amirox's assessment; world-building is important and I found large parts of it to be fairly interesting. However, it feels like it comes at the expense of actually moving the plot forward far too often. I wouldn't mind the elaborate set descriptions if the actors actually did more than stand in them for long periods of time.
The oft-maligned 'travelogue' Brianne chapters of Feast were at least about Brianne trying to find someone. Moving towards some goal. With Dance, it feels like all the characters are stuck in some sort of literary mud. There needs to be some semblance of movement.
The previous books were boiling away towards things; shit was happening all over the place and all at once. It feels like Feast and Dance have turned the soup down to a simmer and now there's just a layer of fat congealing on the surface. It's still cooking, but it's taking forever. At some point the unending slew of unpronounceable names, strange customs and fanciful dress gets a tad stale, not because they're dull, but because the characters moving through them aren't really... moving through them.
GRRM has said quite a bit that he had trouble getting Dany out of Meereen (the "Meereenese knot" he called it) and it shows. This stands in stark (lol) contrast to the Dany who crawled meekly into Astapor to trade her pet dragon to a bunch of fat, greedy masters for an army of slaves, only to free the slaves, free the dragon, melt the masters and tear the city apart. Where's the Daenerys that did that? The one who crucified people? This entire book felt like a complete 180 from a takes-no-prisoners slave-freeing dragon-mother to kind of a whiny waif. She let people walk all over her and her inaction was a startling contrast from her decisions in the past. And in truth, a lot of it led to more suffering than if she had just set the whole god damned thing to the torch.
Yeah, she needed to feed her children, she needed money to pay her sellswords... but those things were there for the taking. Burn Astapor, Burn Meereen, Burn Yunkai, keep marching. She had no reason to stay in or spare Meereen and it brought her nothing but trouble. She's a dragon; scorched earth goes without saying. Keep marching. All of the Meereen drama was completely out of character.
Otherwise, very few complaints. All of the other characters have their low points, but at least they were moving around a bit. Quite a few shake ups, but they were buried quite a bit. In all honesty the Reek chapters were the most interesting to me because it's from a very unusual point of view and has some pretty screwed up characters.
I viewed the Dorne chapters from Feast to be the least interesting, so, I'm glad that the Dorne-related chapters were kept to a minimum and there was only a single chapter actually in Dorne.
I guess it just feels like GRRM is bored with Westeros and so he's introducing all of these new places and different characters to run parallel with the stories he's established to keep himself interested.
I'm still letting it soak in, and having recently re-read the series earlier this year, I'm not sure where I'd place it. Some great bomb-shells in there that remind me of that old ASoIaF feel, but everything felt sluggish and slowed down; whether because GRRM just didn't know how to move things forward or was too busy describing things, I'm not sure yet... Winter is coming, but at times it feels like nobody is in any kind of rush.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I totally disagree that it was out of character. She
As far as being bored with Westeros... lol did you ignore all the chapters in the North? They're some of the most fascinating in the series.
stays in Meereen because it is in her character to help her people, not burn them all to the ground. She's struggling with sticking to the her crazed Targaryen roots (fire and blood) while simultaneously being a mother to her people. I found that to be a fascinating struggle and it made her chapters all the more worthwhile.
As far as being bored with Westeros... lol did you ignore all the chapters in the North? They're some of the most fascinating in the series.
Jon, about 90% through the book, near the end:
Fucking GRRM. Gives us an awesome scene and setup for the next book and then undoes all of it with BACKSTABBING AND BETRAYAL and now there's going to be drama for a hundred more pages before the plot gets back on track.
I swear it's like there is a part of him that will never let this story end.
I swear it's like there is a part of him that will never let this story end.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Halycon said:
<Jon END OF BOOK spoilers:>
It's not so bad. I was pissed about it at first too, even though I saw it coming from the beginning. But after thinking about it some and reading what other people thought, the events at the end of that chapter are not necessarily as final as you'd think. More likely it's an important change necessary for the story.
ZephyrFate said:
I wasn't bored with Westeros at all, and the Northern chapters were fantastic (Bran and Reek especially, Jon as well). I was referring to GRRM needing to shift focus to places like the Iron Islands and Dorne when the things that are actually happening there aren't amounting to much.
As to the first stuff; Her people needed food and currency to survive. I got the general impression that the area around Meereen is mostly hot, scrubby and harsh, with only a few resources. What did grow there was burned by her enemies ahead of her advance. We knew all of this before we even opened the book, honestly.
Hanging out in a town surrounded by and inhabited by her enemies with no supplies struck me as the opposite of helping her people. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seemed to be she picked some shithole in the desert and suddenly couldn't bring herself to lead her people to greener pastures. Maybe there aren't any and I just missed that.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
Kill the Boy... literally.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Well, she has options.
What I meant by the bored by Westeros comment isn't that you were bored, but that GRRM isn't. The chapters in the North have some of the most exquisite prose I've ever read in a fantasy series, and shows how absolutely, UNRELENTINGLY, BRUTALLY dark The Winds of Winter will be.
She could just up and leave her people (which they think she's done already) and fly to Westeros and burn everything to the ground... like people who hate Dany's storyline seem to want (and would be super terribly boring)... or she can try and develop a rapport that will last with the people she's currently ruling. The reason she doesn't leave, is that once she does? They'll be enslaved again. The Yunkish people or the Astapori people or the Volantenes will sweep in and fuck over everything she struggled to put together. And she STILL has knives surrounding her, waiting to open her throat.
I think she'll come back after her trip with Drogon ready to settle all this shit once and for all.
I think she'll come back after her trip with Drogon ready to settle all this shit once and for all.
What I meant by the bored by Westeros comment isn't that you were bored, but that GRRM isn't. The chapters in the North have some of the most exquisite prose I've ever read in a fantasy series, and shows how absolutely, UNRELENTINGLY, BRUTALLY dark The Winds of Winter will be.
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