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A Dance with Dragons |OT| - Read the rules or Melisandre casts magic missile

Retro

Member
ZephyrFate said:
Well, she has options.

She could just up and leave her people (which they think she's done already) and fly to Westeros and burn everything to the ground... like people who hate Dany's storyline seem to want (and would be super terribly boring)... or she can try and develop a rapport that will last with the people she's currently ruling. The reason she doesn't leave, is that once she does? They'll be enslaved again. The Yunkish people or the Astapori people or the Volantenes will sweep in and fuck over everything she struggled to put together. And she STILL has knives surrounding her, waiting to open her throat.

I think she'll come back after her trip with Drogon ready to settle all this shit once and for all.

What I meant by the bored by Westeros comment isn't that you were bored, but that GRRM isn't. The chapters in the North have some of the most exquisite prose I've ever read in a fantasy series, and shows how absolutely, UNRELENTINGLY, BRUTALLY dark The Winds of Winter will be.

It just seems to me that she's gone from melting and crucifying slavemasters to bargaining with them, something she's obviously terrible with. I also don't think her 'learning to rule' is part of the equation, because the city she's trying to rule is built around the slavery she's more or less abolished. It's like watching the North and South fight in the Civil War, except this version of the South is utterly without redemption and the North has weapons that could end the fight quickly but won't use them.

I dunno. It rubs me the wrong way to see the character suddenly sitting around dealing with the very same despicable people she was keen to slaughter and make terrible examples of the last time we saw her.

But here's hoping Winds of Winter follows the direction the last few chapters of Dance set up. Honestly, it felt like things were picking up pace and getting interesting just as they wrapped up. As I said before though, the Northern stuff was certainly above the chapters in the east, in my opinion.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off said:
<Jon END OF BOOK spoilers:>

It's not so bad. I was pissed about it at first too, even though I saw it coming from the beginning. But after thinking about it some and reading what other people thought, the events at the end of that chapter are not necessarily as final as you'd think. More likely it's an important change necessary for the story.
Continued discussion:
I can't see how GRRM is going to worm his way out of this. There's going to be a war between the wildlings and the Watch. That much is certain. There's so many volatile elements there that nothing short of full on incursion by the Others will make them stop.
 

bengraven

Member
All right, back from my three day ban. Finished the book on Wednesday. ;)

(also, if I was banned because I accidently let slip a spoiler, I apologize to anyone I may have spoiled, truly)

Chapters:

Tyrion: Most Tyr chapters were fantastic, while some went into "average" zone. From his first words to Illyrio to the introduction of Penny, I was entertained. I didn't get that feeling back until the auction block scene (which felt like his confession at the Aerie and I loved every second). I worry about the next book...I wish he could have reached Dany instead of just spending half the book staring at her walls.

My favorite chapters of his (and some of my favorite in the book, hell, entire series) was him on the river. Laid back with good friends one minute, checking out Ashara Dane's naked body the next (don't tell me she isn't AD, she's totally Dane), playing cyvasse with Halfmaester, giving Young Griff or Duck shit. Then some creepy scenes like the foggy ride through ruins or the lepers scene. Great stuff.

Bran and Arya:
I TOLD you it was Bloodraven! Bran's chapters were too sparse and few...same with Arya. That said, Brans were some of the best in the book and better than Arya's. I loved the reveal of the children and I loved Bloodraven.

And that chapter where they are racing to the mountain. I was holding my breath...I had a feeling someone wasn't going to make it out alive. At one point I swore Hodor was about to die...and when he left behind the Reeds I was like "NOOOOO". Great chapter, very tense.

Arya's skin changing...holy shit. Great scene. I could feel the blood running down my face.

Also, all the crying for the last 6 years when she was only blind for ONE chapter. LMAO

Dany: I think we all agree here. It felt more like a teen girl fantasy novel most of the time with her pining over her shiny douchebag. However it was nice to see her starting to lose control, ala Cersei, and unlike Cersei she was actually trying to fight it. It was strange to see her firm and intelligent (her meetings with her advisors) one minute and irrationally kind another (saving Tyrion/Penny, the plague victims). Also, as it was said by another, most of the people around her are boring and unnecessary. I mean, Shavepate and that K-something perfumed seneschal? The Green and Blue Graces (I'm still not sure what their purpose was) Did he really need to give her more characters, she already has enough as is.

I grew bored of her chapters and was very sick of Mereen in the end. However, her last chapter was her best since she was riding in her khalasar.

Barriston and Theon: The best chapters in my opinion.

I'm assuming Barriston "defeating the knot" was GRRM's way of saying he wasn't sure how to take Lizahr (sp?) out of power. Barriston took care of business like boss and that scene where he arrives to take out the king was extremely nerve-wracking: not only the scene where he has to fight an arena champion 1/3 his age, but also the parallels to Ned's betrayel. I kept waiting for Shavepate to betray him or the king to have been waiting for him to arrive so he could remove Barriston's head.

Theon...poor fucking Theon. Yeah, I said it because people are scared to say it. I hated him...from day one...even after finishing the first four books - to me he was a shitty person. But his line here when he realized that all he ever wanted to be was a Stark was tragic. Yes, most of the evil surrounding him when he took Winterfell was Reek and yes, he started it by taking the castle...but even re-reading Clash I started to feel sorry for him. He's confused about whether he wants to be accepted by his foster family or by his estranged father and he makes a ton of mistakes. I love his act of redemption by rescuing Jeyne...despite the fact that you know he'll be dying before the series is over.

Also, his treatment by Ramsay obviously...Jesus, Theon, he castrated you? :*/

Griff: I had his existance spoiled by GAF, but I was genuinely shocked about Young Griff's reveal. I had a feeling he was a Targ when Tyrion mentioned his hair, but when Tyrion said "...dead boy" and I was like "oohhfuuuuuck". The one fan theory I thought was ridiculous was actually true! And Connington's chapters were both great...declaring himself to the Gold Company and then the fantastic chapter when he took back his home castle. I'm rooting for him. Fuck Dany, take Westeros on your own.

Davos: A lot of people loved his chapters, but I found them kind of boring until the "trial" and then the last chapter when he was off to Skagos to find Osha and Rickon...which is awesome.

Jon: The spoiler I saw that made me want to leave this thread was Jon dying...I felt like I had ruined the books. But he's not dead. "Salt and smoke", blah blah. Yeah.

Jon's chapters were also kind of disappointing. The middle of his chapters was all about coordinating wildlings and Bowen Marsh and his followers disappointed with every move he made. Grew old after a while. I kind of got sick of seeing his name pop up.

I loved the first 1/3 of them with the death of Slynt finally! and the stockpiling of goods, then the last third with Tormund Fucking Giantsbane, a giant, and the death scene. And that letter! That fucking letter was awesome. (Stannis is still out in the snow, Ramsay caught Mance and is trying to goad Stannis's people to him...also fuck Mance for either turning cloak or running his mouth after being tortured - that was one guy I thought could handle Ramsay).

Cersei and Jaime: Loved these chapters, though Jaime basically walks in, signs a contract, and walks out, then goes off with Brienne...nothing major. Still was good reading...how some chapters can have action and be boring to me, but these chapters be exciting I have no clue. And Cersei's walk of shame was a great scene...her shrugging off that cloak was right alongside her character...and the fact that she only broke when people started to talk about how wrinkled and saggy she was beginning to get...fantastic.

And Gregor arriving to carry her gently to safety...it was a great contrast to him being this wild, murderous monster to suddenly being her creature...loving and devoted to her. I kind of "aw"ed at that, despite her being a murderous sociopath and him being a psychopathic rapist.

Epilogue/Kevan: NO, they killed my boy! After my re-read I actually started to LIKE Kevan. I was glad to see him being the one last Lannister in KL with a head on his shoulders and someone who could have controlled the chaos there. Why not kill Mance Tyrell? Because that wouldn't cause the chaos of Tyrell still being alive, right Varys? WELL FUCK YOU.

That said, I saw it coming a mile away. Not just because it was an epilogue, but also because it read like someone who was going to be knocked off at any moment. It read like someone who was going to be killed by something in the shadows. It read like the last half of the final season of Sopranos when you didn't know who was going to get killed and where.

Pycelle? Shocking...truly shocking. Didn't see that coming...don't care for him as a character, but he was there since the beginning so it will be strange to see him gone.

Overall:

I said that it was better than Storm while reading it. I will agree that the first half of the book is better than Storm. The second half...up until those cliffhangers at the end and a couple of good chapters with Theon, Asha, and Barristan, was dull. The second half of the book was very "Feast" like.

This book felt more symbolic and thematic to me. The main theme of the novel feels like "conversion". People experiencing new things and opening their minds to it. Tyrion as a slave, Dany just letting go of her feelings as she becomes a stronger queen, Victarion and Theon both finding new religion. The other is disease. Whether it's the literal plague (what a great final moment in Mereen: "they're going to throw bodies"), greyscale, or losing your mind (Theon/possibly Cersei).

I don't even know where I would put this on the scale...perhaps right after Storm and then Game.
 
Tears of joy glitter my eyes. I won't name the POV, as it may be seen as a spoiler, and I'll put the page number the POV ends on in spoiler tags just so folks don't anticipate what's coming.

Page number (US Hardcover)
:
394

Spoilers for that page:
"The North remembers"

Fuck fuck fuck, oh lord. I read the brief chapter summaries at Tower Of The Hand for the first 5-6 POVs, shortly before the book came out. When I got to Davos' second chapter it seemed to suggest he died, so I felt shitty for spoiling myself and even shittier knowing what the Manderly's told Cersei (in AFFC) was correct.

And then Davos' next chapter arrived. I had felt suspicious about the Manderly allegiance in the previous Davos chapter, where it mentioned Robett Glover was rallying men in White Harbor; if the Manderlys were truly supporting the Lannisters, surely they would capture Glover. My suspicion/anticipation only heightened during Asha's chapter. With Deepwood and Lady Glover in hand, Stannis finally holds sway over a part of the North; I figured he could broker an alliance with the Glovers and perhaps demand Asha sail back to Harlow to retrieve his children. Seems like Asha is dead now though, so perhaps that is out the window.

But enough rambling. Wex. Rickon. I got chills reading that entire chapter, and actually thought Rickon was about to walk out of the shadows (before Wex did). Good lord, Davos sailing to Skagos to retrieve the boy and Osha. Knowing Martin, something horrible will probably happen but I'm still excited as fuck. I take solace in Martin's comments about giving Osha a lot of shit to do in the books, after being so impressed by the actress who plays her in GoT. Please be a sign that this plotline doesn't end in some Stark-esque bummer of death. Or at least give me some awesome moments before it does. This also makes me wonder how Martin planned for this particular plot during his 5 year gap phase.

In short, I'm baffled how anyone can say nothing happens in this book. Holy shit. The Essos chapters are not nearly as interesting as the North ones, mainly because we already know the North. Any exposition there is welcomed, whereas with Essos the worldbuilding feels foreign and boring at times. Still, I've enjoyed the chapters of characters there. This book is great, and seems to only be getting better.
 
PD:
If this book is any indicator, we're in for a lot of death in the next book. Everywhere. All sides. Pure, black darkness.
 
ZephyrFate said:
PD:
If this book is any indicator, we're in for a lot of death in the next book. Everywhere. All sides. Pure, black darkness.

Certainly, which I love. But give me something to cheer about at least once in awhile, dammit!
 
PhoenixDark said:
Tears of joy glitter my eyes. I won't name the POV, as it may be seen as a spoiler, and I'll put the page number the POV ends on in spoiler tags just so folks don't anticipate what's coming.

Page number (US Hardcover)
:
394

Spoilers for that page:
"The North remembers"

Fuck fuck fuck, oh lord. I read the brief chapter summaries at Tower Of The Hand for the first 5-6 POVs, shortly before the book came out. When I got to Davos' second chapter it seemed to suggest he died, so I felt shitty for spoiling myself and even shittier knowing what the Manderly's told Cersei (in AFFC) was correct.

And then Davos' next chapter arrived. I had felt suspicious about the Manderly allegiance in the previous Davos chapter, where it mentioned Robett Glover was rallying men in White Harbor; if the Manderlys were truly supporting the Lannisters, surely they would capture Glover. My suspicion/anticipation only heightened during Asha's chapter. With Deepwood and Lady Glover in hand, Stannis finally holds sway over a part of the North; I figured he could broker an alliance with the Glovers and perhaps demand Asha sail back to Harlow to retrieve his children. Seems like Asha is dead now though, so perhaps that is out the window.

But enough rambling. Wex. Rickon. I got chills reading that entire chapter, and actually thought Rickon was about to walk out of the shadows (before Wex did). Good lord, Davos sailing to Skagos to retrieve the boy and Osha. Knowing Martin, something horrible will probably happen but I'm still excited as fuck. I take solace in Martin's comments about giving Osha a lot of shit to do in the books, after being so impressed by the actress who plays her in GoT. Please be a sign that this plotline doesn't end in some Stark-esque bummer of death. Or at least give me some awesome moments before it does. This also makes me wonder how Martin planned for this particular plot during his 5 year gap phase.

In short, I'm baffled how anyone can say nothing happens in this book. Holy shit. The Essos chapters are not nearly as interesting as the North ones, mainly because we already know the North. Any exposition there is welcomed, whereas with Essos the worldbuilding feels foreign and boring at times. Still, I've enjoyed the chapters of characters there. This book is great, and seems to only be getting better.

That remains one of my biggest 'punch the air' moments of the book (not to say there haven't been some other really awesome moments, too).

I had predicted prior to the book that Manderly would have Rickon and that the 'execution' of Davos was just a ploy, so I was glad to find out that I was at least on the right line, and that whole moment was great. It was awesome really seeing everything play out (after the mummer's farce they put on for the Freys), and revealing that Manderly was actually a pretty good player in the game.

I have to say that I'm really enjoying the world building in Essos, though. We've known so little about the area for so long, so getting more information on the history, culture and politics in that region is pretty interesting.
 

Ænima

Member
pg.647

Goddamnit that Jaime chapter was such a cocktease. I just flipped through the rest of the book to see if there was another one but no. GRRM truly trolls like no other.
 

Jarmel

Banned
3CX2


That is all.
 

Thai

Bane was better.
Basileus777 said:
Words are wind. Words are wind. Words are wind. Words are wind. Words are wind. Words are wind. Words are wind.

My god, Martin uses this phrase so many times. I cringe everytime I see it.


For me, it's "much and more". I feel like he uses it at least once a chapter, and some of the characters actually say it in their dialogue. Wouldn't hurt to throw in a few "a lot"s in there sometimes.

"much and more""much and more""much and more""much and more""much and more""much and more""much and more""much and more"
 
Thai said:
For me, it's "much and more". I feel like he uses it at least once a chapter, and some of the characters actually say it in their dialogue. Wouldn't hurt to throw in a few "a lot"s in there sometimes.

"much and more""much and more""much and more""much and more""much and more""much and more""much and more""much and more"
Where do whores go?
 
I actually said "just so" to someone at work the other day. I will have to try to work "words are wind" and "where do whores go" , and maybe "you know nothing jon snow" or "HAR" just to see what people say.
 

bengraven

Member
Ever since Sam's chapters in Feast, I couldn't wait to see (Davos III)
Skagos...now I can't wait for the next book
.
 
elrechazao said:
I actually said "just so" to someone at work the other day. I will have to try to work "words are wind" and "where do whores go" , and maybe "you know nothing jon snow" or "HAR" just to see what people say.

Must needs

Post-Davos III
Ending hyped me up. Sad we have to wait.
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
90%

So, I'm not totally done so I don't want to go into the unmarked thread, but I wanted to see if this point has been raised. Jon's wounds smoked as he was stabbed. My reading of this was confirmation that he is indeed a true Targaryen. Drogon's wounds smoked in the fighting pits.
 
Emerson said:
90%

So, I'm not totally done so I don't want to go into the unmarked thread, but I wanted to see if this point has been raised. Jon's wounds smoked as he was stabbed. My reading of this was confirmation that he is indeed a true Targaryen. Drogon's wounds smoked in the fighting pits.
Yeah we were just discussing this in the other thread. I thought the same as you.
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
Cool, I need to get some work done but then I'll bang out the rest of the book this afternoon and rejoin that thread.
 
elrechazao said:
I actually said "just so" to someone at work the other day. I will have to try to work "words are wind" and "where do whores go" , and maybe "you know nothing jon snow" or "HAR" just to see what people say.
I was thinking about incorporating "I am just a young girl who is not..." into my day-to-day conversations even though I am not a young girl (or a girl, for that matter)
 
PhoenixDark said:
Tears of joy glitter my eyes. I won't name the POV, as it may be seen as a spoiler, and I'll put the page number the POV ends on in spoiler tags just so folks don't anticipate what's coming.

Page number (US Hardcover)
:
394

Spoilers for that page:
"The North remembers"

Fuck fuck fuck, oh lord. I read the brief chapter summaries at Tower Of The Hand for the first 5-6 POVs, shortly before the book came out. When I got to Davos' second chapter it seemed to suggest he died, so I felt shitty for spoiling myself and even shittier knowing what the Manderly's told Cersei (in AFFC) was correct.

And then Davos' next chapter arrived. I had felt suspicious about the Manderly allegiance in the previous Davos chapter, where it mentioned Robett Glover was rallying men in White Harbor; if the Manderlys were truly supporting the Lannisters, surely they would capture Glover. My suspicion/anticipation only heightened during Asha's chapter. With Deepwood and Lady Glover in hand, Stannis finally holds sway over a part of the North; I figured he could broker an alliance with the Glovers and perhaps demand Asha sail back to Harlow to retrieve his children. Seems like Asha is dead now though, so perhaps that is out the window.

But enough rambling. Wex. Rickon. I got chills reading that entire chapter, and actually thought Rickon was about to walk out of the shadows (before Wex did). Good lord, Davos sailing to Skagos to retrieve the boy and Osha. Knowing Martin, something horrible will probably happen but I'm still excited as fuck. I take solace in Martin's comments about giving Osha a lot of shit to do in the books, after being so impressed by the actress who plays her in GoT. Please be a sign that this plotline doesn't end in some Stark-esque bummer of death. Or at least give me some awesome moments before it does. This also makes me wonder how Martin planned for this particular plot during his 5 year gap phase.

In short, I'm baffled how anyone can say nothing happens in this book. Holy shit. The Essos chapters are not nearly as interesting as the North ones, mainly because we already know the North. Any exposition there is welcomed, whereas with Essos the worldbuilding feels foreign and boring at times. Still, I've enjoyed the chapters of characters there. This book is great, and seems to only be getting better.

Even the people who thought the book a disappointment loved that chapter. They problem is that for many that was the highpoint of the book.
 

Jarmel

Banned
ZephyrFate said:
Which I completely and totally disagree with. There's so much more awesome in the book than people say there is.

There's alot of awesome but alot of fluff too that should have been cut out.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Jarmel said:
There's alot of awesome but alot of fluff too that should have been cut out.
Like how GRRM spends half his chapters on little tidbits of Westeros history/lore no one cares about or remembers.
 
ZephyrFate said:
Which I completely and totally disagree with. There's so much more awesome in the book than people say there is.

There are plenty of awesome moments in the book. It's more the pacing and stalling of the Essos plotlines that is the problem.

Halycon said:
Like how GRRM spends half his chapters on little tidbits of Westeros history/lore no one cares about or remembers.

The lore isn't really the issue, well unless naming all the turtles in the Rhoyne counts as lore.
 
Basileus777 said:
There are plenty of awesome moments in the book. It's more the pacing and stalling of the Essos plotlines that is the problem.

This is my thoughts on the book. The parts that take place in the North are awesome. And get better the more I think about them. Most of the parts in Essos are the exact opposite. There are moments here and there, but when I re-read this book the Essos chapters are going to be immensely skimmed.
 

sazabirules

Unconfirmed Member
Here are some of my random and incomplete thoughts on the book.

End of book spoilers:

I have to say I'm disappointed by the book. I liked the book but there was too little of the characters I did enjoy and it was such a cock tease when these characters did appear. The events in the East were moving at the pace of a snail.

There were way too many Daenerys chapters with little going on. Her chapters were really boring for the most part and she never listened to someone like Barristan when she should have. It took GRRM this long to "solve the Knot" and he gave us these boring chapters? Daenerys flying away was great and so was Quentyn's attempt at subduing the other two.

Tyrion's chapters were good about half the time. His chapters on the boat with Connington & Co. were good.

I really felt bad for Theon in this book and his POV was one of my favorites. I was hoping he would kill Ramsay when he had the chance early on but his Reek personality took hold of him.

Jon continued to be one of my favorite characters but I predicted something would befall upon him in this book since all of his closet friends had been sent away. (Sam, Tollett, Pyp, Grenn) I believe Ramsay is bluffing. Hopefully Jon makes it out alive past this apparent coup d'état or whatever transpired.

The chapters of Davos, Jaime, and Arya were all good but there wasn't enough of them in the book. Did Davos actually say that it was Skagos he was going to? I thought they had pointed at the map and had not actually named his destination.

I have to applaud GRRM for making the Cersei and Bran chapters some of the best chapters in the book.

I wasn't surprised at Kevan's death in the epilogue. Now we'll how to wait a long time to see what happens. I just hope we find out if The Hound is the Elder Brother.
 
Halycon said:
Like how GRRM spends half his chapters on little tidbits of Westeros history/lore no one cares about or remembers.
Fuck worldbuilding, am I right? No. It's necessary. Westeros is a character just like any other. If you don't care about the lore of the world then you should jump ship right now.
 

ezrarh

Member
ZephyrFate said:
Fuck worldbuilding, am I right? No. It's necessary. Westeros is a character just like any other. If you don't care about the lore of the world then you should jump ship right now.

It shouldn't come at the expense of plot progression. There was easily enough material to cut out which would have allowed room for the supposed big event(s)? that were left out at the end of the book.
 

Jarmel

Banned
ZephyrFate said:
Fuck worldbuilding, am I right? No. It's necessary. Westeros is a character just like any other. If you don't care about the lore of the world then you should jump ship right now.

No novel should feel like a history book and sometimes this came awfully close.
 
Jarmel said:
No novel should feel like a history book and sometimes this came awfully close.
I never felt like I was reading a history book. I was, instead, learning about the character of both Westeros and Essos. Worldbuilding is exactly what the series needed and with it out of the way the real stuff can happen, and is supported by the fact that we know so much about the world.

I never felt like it came at the expense of progression. I wasn't expecting much to happen right now anyway. The world is in pieces after ASOS. We need downtime.
 
The problem is not the world building of Westeros. Heck I wish this entire book was made of chapters that takes place in Westeros, that would have made it awesome.

The problem is that I just don't really care about Essos. I am not interested in what happens to Slaver's Bay, and the Essos chapters while I wouldn't call them boring, just never engaged me.
 
Last Hearth said:
The problem is not the world building of Westeros. Heck I wish this entire book was made of chapters that takes place in Westeros, that would have made it awesome.

The problem is that I just don't really care about Essos. I am not interested in what happens to Slaver's Bay, and the Essos chapters while I wouldn't call them boring, just never engaged me.
Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I enjoyed the HELL out of learning more about the people of Essos and where they live. Heretofore they had just been described as... foreign. And now they're understandable.
 
ZephyrFate said:
Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I enjoyed the HELL out of learning more about the people of Essos and where they live. Heretofore they had just been described as... foreign. And now they're understandable.

To me, the central story of ASOIAF is concerning 2 things, who will claim the the Iron Throne, and how do we win the War for the Dawn.

That's it. Everything that drives toward the resolutions of those 2 things, I'm invested in, everything that doesn't, I'm not.

I'm sure GRRM can write a lot of interesting cultures and stories in his world, he can probably write about interesting people and cultures and histories in the Basilisk Isles, in the Summer Isles, in Ye Ti and the Jade Sea.

While they would all be interesting in their own right, I am not interested in those tales being part of ASOIAF.
 

Fjordson

Member
ZephyrFate said:
Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I enjoyed the HELL out of learning more about the people of Essos and where they live. Heretofore they had just been described as... foreign. And now they're understandable.
Seriously. I'm fucking eating up all of the history and backstory on Essos and the various cities. Love it.
 

Dartastic

Member
150 pages into A Storm of Swords. I cannot wait to finish this book so I can read the summary of FfC (I'm doing a re-read of the series) and then jump into DwD. UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ.
 
Last Hearth said:
To me, the central story of ASOIAF is concerning 2 things, who will claim the the Iron Throne, and how do we win the War for the Dawn.

That's it. Everything that drives toward the resolutions of those 2 things, I'm invested in, everything that doesn't, I'm not.

I'm sure GRRM can write a lot of interesting cultures and stories in his world, he can probably write about interesting people and cultures and histories in the Basilisk Isles, in the Summer Isles, in Ye Ti and the Jade Sea.

While they would all be interesting in their own right, I am not interested in those tales being part of ASOIAF.
And I do not see ASOIAF as these two things. In fact, to simply put the series into just two main thematics undercuts a lot of just how fragmented the series has become.

The Iron Throne is an instigator of war, not an end goal. No one has been able to rest easy on that throne for any discernible period of time and no one will. It's a symbol that has consistently driven Westeros apart from itself, and from the world around it.

It is, also, a Song of both *Ice* and *Fire*, of the North (the winter coming), and the South/Essos (the hotter, drier, exotic lands). But they are being interwoven because everyone, like it or not, is affected by what goes on as men battle over an iron symbol.

ASOIAF used to be about that. And then the Clash of the Five Kings happened, and everything went into disarray. People were thrown astray, people were broken, lives ruined and lives lost. It is, however, a tale about a whole world that is succumbing to the perils of things beyond themselves... the seasons, disease, the greed and corruption of men that swallows everyone, without discrimination. I do not foresee any ending of ASOIAF having anything to do with anyone sitting on the Iron Throne. If anything, I see it being fucking demolished in fire and blood.

Like it or not, the series is not catering to a dichotomy between the impending war with the Others or the Iron Throne. It is so much more than that, and I do not see that changing any time soon.
 
ZephyrFate said:
And I do not see ASOIAF as these two things. In fact, to simply put the series into just two main thematics undercuts a lot of just how fragmented the series has become.

The Iron Throne is an instigator of war, not an end goal. No one has been able to rest easy on that throne for any discernible period of time and no one will. It's a symbol that has consistently driven Westeros apart from itself, and from the world around it.

It is, also, a Song of both *Ice* and *Fire*, of the North (the winter coming), and the South/Essos (the hotter, drier, exotic lands). But they are being interwoven because everyone, like it or not, is affected by what goes on as men battle over an iron symbol.

ASOIAF used to be about that. And then the Clash of the Five Kings happened, and everything went into disarray. People were thrown astray, people were broken, lives ruined and lives lost. It is, however, a tale about a whole world that is succumbing to the perils of things beyond themselves... the seasons, disease, the greed and corruption of men that swallows everyone, without discrimination. I do not foresee any ending of ASOIAF having anything to do with anyone sitting on the Iron Throne. If anything, I see it being fucking demolished in fire and blood.

Like it or not, the series is not catering to a dichotomy between the impending war with the Others or the Iron Throne. It is so much more than that, and I do not see that changing any time soon.

I disagree, all stories have to have a central plot, not a jumbled set of unconnected subplots.

The Iron Throne and the War for the Dawn is the center of the web that everything else connects to in this story. Westeros is the heart of that struggle and everything that happens is connected to it. Even Dany's entire story up to this point, is only important in so far as she has a future role to play in both of those struggles, otherwise her entire arc is pointless and unnecessary.

End of book spoilers
So when Dany decides that she cares more about Meereen than going to Westeros, her character and story ceases to be of any interest to me. Dany's story in ADWD only got interesting for me in the last chapter, when she finally realizes "what the fuck was I doing in Meereen, my home is Westeros!"
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
So it seems that those who have a problem with the book is the fact that the majority of the subject matter isn't to their liking. Is it then the fault of GRRM?
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
ZephyrFate said:
And I do not see ASOIAF as these two things. In fact, to simply put the series into just two main thematics undercuts a lot of just how fragmented the series has become.

The Iron Throne is an instigator of war, not an end goal. No one has been able to rest easy on that throne for any discernible period of time and no one will. It's a symbol that has consistently driven Westeros apart from itself, and from the world around it.

It is, also, a Song of both *Ice* and *Fire*, of the North (the winter coming), and the South/Essos (the hotter, drier, exotic lands). But they are being interwoven because everyone, like it or not, is affected by what goes on as men battle over an iron symbol.

ASOIAF used to be about that. And then the Clash of the Five Kings happened, and everything went into disarray. People were thrown astray, people were broken, lives ruined and lives lost. It is, however, a tale about a whole world that is succumbing to the perils of things beyond themselves... the seasons, disease, the greed and corruption of men that swallows everyone, without discrimination. I do not foresee any ending of ASOIAF having anything to do with anyone sitting on the Iron Throne. If anything, I see it being fucking demolished in fire and blood.

Like it or not, the series is not catering to a dichotomy between the impending war with the Others or the Iron Throne. It is so much more than that, and I do not see that changing any time soon.

I totally agree man... I really don't understand why ASOIAF fans feel like they get to decide what the story is about. Yes, from the beginning it seems that the Others and Dany are invading. Since when does anything in this series happen as it seems it will?

Last Hearth said:
I disagree, all stories have to have a central plot, not a jumbled set of unconnected subplots.

The Iron Throne and the War for the Dawn is the center of the web that everything else connects to in this story. Westeros is the heart of that struggle and everything that happens is connected to it. Even Dany's entire story up to this point, is only important in so far as she has a future role to play in both of those struggles, otherwise her entire arc is pointless and unnecessary.

End of book spoilers
So when Dany decides that she cares more about Meereen than going to Westeros, her character and story ceases to be of any interest to me. Dany's story in ADWD only got interesting for me in the last chapter, when she finally realizes "what the fuck was I doing in Meereen, my home is Westeros!"

I agree only to the extent that Dany's storyline has to be meaningful to some degree. She'll decide she needs to go to Westeros, but that is not the same as Dany invades Westeros and fights off the Others, like everyone seems to think. Her storyline could do anywhere and as long as it's meaningful I'm fine with that. Leave it to GRRM to decide.
 
Last Hearth said:
I disagree, all stories have to have a central plot, not a jumbled set of unconnected subplots.

The Iron Throne and the War for the Dawn is the center of the web that everything else connects to in this story. Westeros is the heart of that struggle and everything that happens is connected to it. Even Dany's entire story up to this point, is only important in so far as she has a future role to play in both of those struggles, otherwise her entire arc is pointless and unnecessary.

End of book spoilers
So when Dany decides that she cares more about Meereen than going to Westeros, her character and story ceases to be of any interest to me. Dany's story in ADWD only got interesting for me in the last chapter, when she finally realizes "what the fuck was I doing in Meereen, my home is Westeros!"
I never, ever once said that the perspectives are a jumbled set of unconnected subplots. I said that while there are main thematics, to reduce ASOIAF to these two is to completely ignore all the worldbuilding, lore, characters big and small, and all the multitudinous fragments that have been created thanks to what happened in ASOS. They are all interwoven, all playing off each other in small and intricate ways. Essos, for example, has a big part to play because the whole Targaryen line came from there, the reason the Iron Throne even exists in the first place.

I do not think that either of these two things will be the big conclusion at all.
 
speedpop said:
So it seems that those who have a problem with the book is the fact that the majority of the subject matter isn't to their liking. Is it then the fault of GRRM?
No? Worldbuilding is necessary for any big fantasy series. I blame the readers.
 
The world building, the lore, and everything, exists to serve the narrative. The story is the story, the background just serves to enhance the story. It's mistake from a writing perspective to make the background more important than the story.
 
Last Hearth said:
The world building, the lore, and everything, exists to serve the narrative. The story is the story, the background just serves to enhance the story. It's mistake from a writing perspective to make the background more important than the story.
Okay? But he hasn't made that mistake. He's included worldbuilding as part of the narrative to help support what is to come later, as you said, background enhances the story. AFFC/ADWD are fleshing out the narrative by giving us a metric fuckton of backstory we didn't have before.

And to expect big things to happen so soon after ASOS is to neglect the fact that readers need/want catharsis, it's a natural element of writing a narrative.
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
Last Hearth said:
The world building, the lore, and everything, exists to serve the narrative. The story is the story, the background just serves to enhance the story. It's mistake from a writing perspective to make the background more important than the story.

I don't think the narrative and the backstory are as discrete as that. They overlap and flow into each other.
 
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