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[Puddles]

speaking of qyburn, I love how he's totally mild mannered, polite, courteous, intelligent, described as someone's favorite grandpa, and is one of the sickest evil freaks in the books. It makes my skin crawl that you don't really see what he's doing, he just says "ummm, she's a bit...used up" and stuff like that.

One of my favorite passages from AFFC:

Then she sent for Qyburn. “Is Lady Falyse still alive?”
“Alive, yes. Perhaps not entirely... comfortable.”
“I see.” Cersei considered a moment. “This man Bronn... I cannot say I like the notion of an enemy so close. His power all derives from Lollys. If we were to produce her elder sister...”
“Alas,” said Qyburn. “I fear that Lady Falyse is no longer capable of ruling Stokeworth. Or, indeed, of feeding herself. I have learned a great deal from her, I am pleased to say, but the lessons have not been entirely without cost. I hope I have not exceeded Your Grace’s instructions.”

I hope we get to see his dungeon at some point in an upcoming book.

 

[bengraven]

Confirmed. Qyburn isn't building zombie Gregor. He's building The Human Centipede out of women, with headless Gregor in the middle.

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkckhrIG731qazkdco1_500.gif

 

[Ikael]

why - where are you people getting this "arya will kill her family" thing from?

As far as I remember, there was some kind of foreshadowing. I remember Ayra talking with Ned when he discovered her daughter's sword, beggin him so she can keep Needle and promising ned that "she won't kill Sansa with it" or something along these lines. Also, because that would prove to be a quite dramatic event yet coherent and meaningful with his character raison d'etre between surviving at all cost (her identity included) VS holding on to the remmants of her past, even if that makes her "weaker". I am pretty much convinced that at some point of the story she will have to draw her sword against one of her family members.

 

[bengraven]

As far as I remember, there was some kind of foreshadowing. I remember Ayra talking with Ned when he discovered her daughter's sword, beggin him so she can keep Needle and promising ned that "she won't kill Sansa with it" or something along these lines. Also, because that would prove to be a quite dramatic event yet coherent and meaningful with his character raison d'etre between surviving at all cost (her identity included) VS holding on to the remmants of her past, even if that makes her "weaker". I am pretty much convinced that at some point of the story she will have to draw her sword against one of her family members.

You know, this and the Jon Snow thing I never took as foreshadowing, but seeing some of the other, less obvious, moments of foreshadowing that came true it wouldn't surprise me.

Mostly my feelings on Arya's turning on the family would be that she's being asked to wipe her existance from memory. She's no longer to be a Stark. At this point she's a blank slate and can kill anyone. Irony would state she would be asked to kill a Stark. Though honestly who would hire her to kill a Stark when most of them are powerless or insignificant to anyone who can afford one?

 

[f0rk]

Though honestly who would hire her to kill a Stark when most of them are powerless or insignificant to anyone who can afford one?

All the remaining Starks could end up important. Jon as Lord Commander, Bran as some crazy magic prophet or something, Sansa getting some power through Littlefinger and Rickon could end up anywhere

Spoiler

Rickon won't do anything

 

[bengraven]

All the remaining Starks could end up important. Jon as Lord Commander, Bran as some crazy magic prophet or something, Sansa getting some power through Littlefinger and Rickon could end up anywhere

Spoiler

Rickon won't do anything

Oh I know, but as I'm reading Feast I realize just how insignificant they've become. It's their inner strength that will keep the Stark line going.




Also, in case the series is actually finished in the next ten years and GAF is still around, we should go back in the past and laugh at ourselves and how wrong we were.

 

[FStop7]

I'm surprised at the Damphair hate. Dude's a boss.

 

[Pollux]

Oh I know, but as I'm reading Feast I realize just how insignificant they've become. It's their inner strength that will keep the Stark line going.




Also, in case the series is actually finished in the next ten years and GAF is still around, we should go back in the past and laugh at ourselves and how wrong we were.

GAF will probably still be around, so if we haven't got ourselves banned by then, sure haha.

I just can't see Arya killing one of her family members, someone close to them, yes. Thus revealing herself as a Faceless Man, but not the actual family member. I could see her killing Littlefinger (Although I think Sansa does that), and then seeing Sansa and revealing herself. Something along those lines.

 

[LegendofJoe]

I hope so. There are no adult Starks left - the oldest is 13 unless Benjen is alive or you count Jon. Still, the people the Starks cared about and who were there for guidance are dead (Luwin, Cassel, Mordane) and their castle has fallen. The kingdom has abandoned them and look at them as a family of traitors.

Their only allies are people they don't know and who are so busy with their own issues they hardly care about them, such as Edmure and Blackfish and Greatjon Umber and Howland Reed.

They're alone and young and while yes, very strong, without the proposed "5 year gap..."

Well, at this point I have a hard time believing a few kids are going to be able to return the house to it's former glory.

You make some good points here, however I think you are discounting the amount of potential allies Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran have available to them. Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. While this is not the same as being the head of a great House it is still a powerful position of leadership, with the possible advantage of having the wildlings at his side. He also has a budding friendship with Stannis who, while subdued and defeated, is nonetheless the lord of Storm's End. The possible blood relationship with Dany should be considered as well.

Sansa has even more potential allies than Jon. At the moment she is garnering the love and devotion of Littlefinger, and we all know how capable he is. With the storyline being set down in Feast it would not be surprising at all if she ends up having the entire Vale at her disposal. Arya, on the otherhand, is a complete wildcard. I have no idea where she will end up or what kind of allies/friends she will have available to her. However, the simple fact that she is in Bravos sets her up for many interesting possibilities.

Last but not least is the all-powerful warg Bran. He has the Reeds at his side, which I have a strong feeling are going to be playing a big role in the 6th and 7th books. His supernatural talents could also draw allies to him from many various places. After all his ability to control the bodies of animals and people, as well as see through the eyes of weirwoods, could make him highly valuable to any military campaign. And let's not forget the small fact that Bran is the rightful lord of Winterfell.

Moreover, I think you were too quick to dismiss Edmure and the Blackfish. While their armies are, for the most part, crushed they are still nonetheless the lords of the Riverlands. And with the way things are going for the Lannisters and Freys they definitely won't be out of the picture for long. So in total that leaves the Starks 4 out of the 7 major houses as potential allies. Their adversaries, the Lannisters and Iron Islanders, cannot possibly stand against their combined forces. The Vale is the key though, if they fight for the Starks the game of thrones will be over for the Lannisters and Tyrells (if it isn't already).

Admittedly, I am ignoring the impact of the Others and Dany, but we don't know enough about where the chips will fall there to draw any conclusions at this time. I hope this will change by the time we finish reading Dance though. Regardless, I am incredibly excited to see where Martin decides to takes things. It's going to be an awesome ride.

 

[bengraven]

You make some good points here, however I think you are discounting the amount of potential allies Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran have available to them. Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. While this is not the same as being the head of a great House it is still a powerful position of leadership, with the possible advantage of having the wildlings at his side. He also has a budding friendship with Stannis who, while subdued and defeated, is nonetheless the lord of Storm's End. The possible blood relationship with Dany should be considered as well.

Problem is, his friendship with Stannis puts him at odds with the Seven Kingdoms, which at the moment are mostly in Lannister control. Plus they may get a more antagonistic relationship as things go along. If you take him just as the Lord Commander of the NW and outside Stannis influence, remember that he's down in numbers, has almost zero support of the Realm, and most of his best/most loyal/most honorable men are dead or missing (Mormont, Benjen, Halfhand, Noye).

For now Jon's only thoughts are maintaining and rebuilding the missing parts of the Wall and preparing for the Others while weaving around the drama Stannis is causing by being on the Wall.

He has few allies left.

Sansa has even more potential allies than Jon. At the moment she is garnering the love and devotion of Littlefinger, and we all know how capable he is. With the storyline being set down in Feast it would not be surprising at all if she ends up having the entire Vale at her disposal. Arya, on the otherhand, is a complete wildcard. I have no idea where she will end up or what kind of allies/friends she will have available to her. However, the simple fact that she is in Bravos sets her up for many interesting possibilities.

I disagree with the first line; people seem to like her, but they're all convinced she's Littlefinger's daughter and a bastard. And the Vale is turning on Littlefinger. Littlefinger is gaining his allies, but for the most part Sansa is alone with him and Robert though she seems to be finding a friend in Robert Baratheon's bastard daughter.

Plus the entire realm thinks she's the new Kingslayer. The only support she might get would be from the Blackfish and Edmure, but they have their own issues which I'll note below.

Last but not least is the all-powerful warg Bran. He has the Reeds at his side, which I have a strong feeling are going to be playing a big role in the 6th and 7th books. His supernatural talents could also draw allies to him from many various places. After all his ability to control the bodies of animals and people, as well as see through the eyes of weirwoods, could make him highly valuable to any military campaign. And let's not forget the small fact that Bran is the rightful lord of Winterfell.

You make a good point about Bran becoming powerful in another way, but he's still an 8-9 year old boy who's supposedly dead and is a cripple. He'll find no allies south of the wall. Despite him being lord of Winterfell in all but recognized title, I think he will concentrate more on what's happening in the North.

When he does declare himself, which I don't think he ever will, he will likely remain a warg and some sort of shaman, but not a lord.

Alternatively he may decide to still become lord of winterfell, and fight for it (remember Winterfell is the new Harrenhal - Bolton believes he has a claim to it, Tyrion has a claim to it and Littlefinger as well). If so, I would be happy, but he's still a little boy.

Moreover, I think you were too quick to dismiss Edmure and the Blackfish. While their armies are, for the most part, crushed they are still nonetheless the lords of the Riverlands. And with the way things are going for the Lannisters and Freys they definitely won't be out of the picture for long. So in total that leaves the Starks 4 out of the 7 major houses as potential allies. Their adversaries, the Lannisters and Iron Islanders, cannot possibly stand against their combined forces. The Vale is the key though, if they fight for the Starks the game of thrones will be over for the Lannisters and Tyrells (if it isn't already).

I don't want to dismiss them, but I feel like they're in a 300 situation. Everything south and north of the Neck are enemies with them. The Freys, their nearest neighbors, have not only openly declared war with them, but have wanted to wipe Riverrun from the map for the last 90 years. Now that they have the support of the crown, it could happen.

Edmure is captive and has basically become a Lannister yes-man. And if by some bizarre chance his "wife" is pregnant, then that's another claim to Riverrun. (Please excuse some ignorance on this part, I'm still working my way through a re-read of FFC and I barely understood the political machinations going on in the Riverlands in my first readthrough).

The Blackfish is rallying the north right now and I feel he could be a powerful ally to the children at some point, but one of their few. But at the same time, I wonder who might ally with the Blackfish: the Mormonts and Umbers are still around, despite them losing a child/warrior each at the Red Wedding the older ones are around and rode beside the Blackfish in the war against Tywin. I think Blackfish could be the one to help fight off the Ironmen, but in doing so he'd still be at war with Bolton as well.

God damn the North is dangerous right now, just as the south is starting to clean up.

That also reminds me of something interesting: if something were to happen to Edmure, technically wouldn't the Stark kids have a claim to Rivverun? And Robin/Robert? Imagine if they could crush the Freys and truly control the north, but not from the neck up, from the trident up. King in the North indeed.

Admittedly, I am ignoring the impact of the Others and Dany, but we don't know enough about where the chips will fall there to draw any conclusions at this time. I hope this will change by the time we finish reading Dance though. Regardless, I am incredibly excited to see where Martin decides to takes things. It's going to be an awesome ride.

The Others and Dany will change a lot. Dany will rally some to her cause (Dorne, possibly the Iron men and maybe the Starks/Blackfish?) and may divide the war into two battles instead of half a dozen.

The Others on the other hand will unite the people who survive Dany's war, I believe.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

You make some good points here, however I think you are discounting the amount of potential allies Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran have available to them. Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. While this is not the same as being the head of a great House it is still a powerful position of leadership, with the possible advantage of having the wildlings at his side. He also has a budding friendship with Stannis who, while subdued and defeated, is nonetheless the lord of Storm's End. The possible blood relationship with Dany should be considered as well.

Sansa has even more potential allies than Jon. At the moment she is garnering the love and devotion of Littlefinger, and we all know how capable he is. With the storyline being set down in Feast it would not be surprising at all if she ends up having the entire Vale at her disposal. Arya, on the otherhand, is a complete wildcard. I have no idea where she will end up or what kind of allies/friends she will have available to her. However, the simple fact that she is in Bravos sets her up for many interesting possibilities.

Last but not least is the all-powerful warg Bran. He has the Reeds at his side, which I have a strong feeling are going to be playing a big role in the 6th and 7th books. His supernatural talents could also draw allies to him from many various places. After all his ability to control the bodies of animals and people, as well as see through the eyes of weirwoods, could make him highly valuable to any military campaign. And let's not forget the small fact that Bran is the rightful lord of Winterfell.

Moreover, I think you were too quick to dismiss Edmure and the Blackfish. While their armies are, for the most part, crushed they are still nonetheless the lords of the Riverlands. And with the way things are going for the Lannisters and Freys they definitely won't be out of the picture for long. So in total that leaves the Starks 4 out of the 7 major houses as potential allies. Their adversaries, the Lannisters and Iron Islanders, cannot possibly stand against their combined forces. The Vale is the key though, if they fight for the Starks the game of thrones will be over for the Lannisters and Tyrells (if it isn't already).

Admittedly, I am ignoring the impact of the Others and Dany, but we don't know enough about where the chips will fall there to draw any conclusions at this time. I hope this will change by the time we finish reading Dance though. Regardless, I am incredibly excited to see where Martin decides to takes things. It's going to be an awesome ride.

Here is what you are forgetting:

1) Arya believes she is the last remaining Stark, the Lone Wolf of her once great pack. Aside from Jon, the rest of the Stark's are dead with the exception of Sansa who is believed to have fled Westeros.

2) On the subject of Sansa; that is no longer her identity at the moment. Remember in Feast, her new identity is Alayne, bastard born daughter of Littlefinger. For the moment, Petyr has the entire realm believing she is his long lost daughter. Until Littlefinger unveils Sansa's alias (which will not happen until book six at the earliest) it is safe to assume Sansa is safe for now, and chances are will remain unharmed unless Cersei retakes control of the iron throne. And even if she does I highly doubt she will hire a faceless man for the simple reason they cost an arm and a leg. Moreover, she can't borrow from the Iron Bank of Braavos because the throne is in too much debt.

3) Word has spread to every corner of Westeros that Theon Greyjoy had Bran and Rickon Stark executed. They are believed to be dead and buried. The only person with knowledge of their existence would be Theon, because my theory draws the conclusion that it was a ploy to cover up Theon's mistake of allowing the Stark children to escape, therefore he executes random children so his father will have no knowledge of his incompetence, further strengthening his claim to his father's throne.

4) Who needs Jon dead? It doesn't make any sense. He is the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, the highest honor in the nights watch sure, however he is still bound to his vows, therefore no one in the seven kingdoms can possibly justify him as much of a threat. Moreover, the Nights Watch numbers would hardly stand a chance against any houses Vanguard nonetheless. This is, in fact, assuming Jon honors his vows until the series end (my opinion will probably change after Dance). The only probable enemy Jon may quarrel with will be Stannis (quote it) because I believe Jon is Azor Ahai reborn (either him or Davos).

I think Arya will quickly prove skillful as an assassin and ascend victoriously quicker than any man who has trained as a faceless man in the past. They allude to this by exemplifying the lack of females in the brotherhood, in fact, a female finishing the training is a rarity rivaling some of the other prophecies if I remember correctly. I do remember the priest telling her a faceless woman is like a once in a century feat or something along those lines. Next, I think her and Bran will finish their training around the same time. Bran then becomes a super warg who can telepathically relay messages to men with blood of the first men, but he chiefly uses his powers to locate the remaining people with Stark blood. Bran senses Arya's despair, and subliminally leads her on a journey to help her regain the Arya she has forgotten. I think Bran will lead her to Sansa. At some point, Sansa will make a critical error playing the game of thrones and will need her sisters help, bringing them together in a sisterly way they have never known in turn. All of this I believe will be done by Bran somehow.

 

[Emerson]

Am I the only one who doesn't take it as given that Dany will invade or that the Others will? Sure, it seems likely, but when has a likely thing happened before in this series?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Actually now that you mention it about the Riverrun heirs, if Edmure goes before he has children, then I guess Blackfish is the heir. If not him then Robert Arryn could be heir since Bran and Rickon are considered dead. Or would Sansa trump him because her mother is older than Lysa.

Of course they'd have to knock those fucking Frey's (and Tyrion's awesome aunt) out of there first.

 

[bengraven]

Actually now that you mention it about the Riverrun heirs, if Edmure goes before he has children, then I guess Blackfish is the heir. If not him then Robert Arryn could be heir since Bran and Rickon are considered dead. Or would Sansa trump him because her mother is older than Lysa.

Of course they'd have to knock those fucking Frey's (and Tyrion's awesome aunt) out of there first.

See, that's what I'm talking about. It only goes to the women if the sons are all gone though. Since technically the only male alive is Robert, then it will likely be his.

I'm also under the impression that Robert will get killed at some point though, either by Littlefinger or some outside force that wants the Vale.

Here is what you are forgetting:

The Kids: another thing is, since they were up in the North and fairly secluded from everyone, including most of their extended family outside the Starks, is there even anyone left except Theon or Littlefinger who can identify any of them? Is there anyone who can say "Yes, that is Bran, that is Rickon, that is Arya?". People would recognize Sansa since she spent so much time in court and because she's abnormally beautiful apparently. This is another reason why I think the kids will not take back Winterfell until the very end.

Sansa: you know, with the way word travels fast in Westeros, you'd think someone would notify King's Landing that Littlefinger's beautiful green eyed bastard just happened to arrive at the Eyrie a few weeks after Joffrey's death. Someone's going to have to figure it out or suspect it at some point.

 

[Sotha Sil]

So, anyone playing the ASOIAF's card game? I've bought it on a whim a few days ago; never played a card game before. It's really good, actually. The art is sometimes surprising, but almost always faithful to the books. Lots of spoilers, obviously; makes it hard to play with non-readers.

Am I the only one who doesn't take it as given that Dany will invade or that the Others will? Sure, it seems likely, but when has a likely thing happened before in this series?

Dany and the Others will invade. They are the titular ice and fire, after all. Don't believe Melisandre's lies.

But as you said, knowing Martin, nothing will play out as expected. For all we know, Dany may never get to see the final book.

 

[Pollux]

Why is everyone assuming that Arya is going to forget who she is if she completes the Faceless Men training? I don't think thats going to be the case.

 

[Sotha Sil]

Why is everyone assuming that Arya is going to forget who she is if she completes the Faceless Men training? I don't think thats going to be the case.

Yeah, I don't buy it. Martin is cruel, but not that cruel. "Here's your first assignment, child. Waste Jon Snow, Nymeria and Zombie Catelyn. You went through hell to find them, failed... And now you'll find them and kill them, too! Poetic!!!!1"

No way.

 

[Emerson]

Personally I think the years of waiting have done a number on people's thoughts regarding the series. In speculation there are usually tons of assumptions being tossed around as facts.

 

[Pollux]

Yeah, I don't buy it. Martin is cruel, but not that cruel. "Here's your first assignment, child. Waste Jon Snow, Nymeria and Zombie Catelyn. You went through hell to find them, failed... And now you'll find them and kill them, too! Poetic!!!!1"

No way.

As I've said before, just b/c the Faceless Men say they are "no one" doesn't mean they don't remember who they were before they began their training. We have no evidence that the trainee's forget who they are.

 

[shintoki]

First assignment? Maybe not. But if she continues down the path of the faceless men, she will cross with one of them eventually. The only two possible candidates would be Sansa or Jon.

The one thing about Arya is that she has been the character who has never stayed in one place for more than a book. She centralizes around one region, then another in the following.

 

[Advance_Alarm]

See, that's what I'm talking about. It only goes to the women if the sons are all gone though. Since technically the only male alive is Robert, then it will likely be his.

I'm also under the impression that Robert will get killed at some point though, either by Littlefinger or some outside force that wants the Vale.




The Kids: another thing is, since they were up in the North and fairly secluded from everyone, including most of their extended family outside the Starks, is there even anyone left except Theon or Littlefinger who can identify any of them? Is there anyone who can say "Yes, that is Bran, that is Rickon, that is Arya?". People would recognize Sansa since she spent so much time in court and because she's abnormally beautiful apparently. This is another reason why I think the kids will not take back Winterfell until the very end.

Sansa: you know, with the way word travels fast in Westeros, you'd think someone would notify King's Landing that Littlefinger's beautiful green eyed bastard just happened to arrive at the Eyrie a few weeks after Joffrey's death. Someone's going to have to figure it out or suspect it at some point.

Bronze Yohn knows about Sansa

 

[elrechazado]

As I've said before, just b/c the Faceless Men say they are "no one" doesn't mean they don't remember who they were before they began their training. We have no evidence that the trainee's forget who they are.

Yeah, I've never understood the "faceless men are mindless zombies" thing, nor how, even if you accepted that, you'd end up with "arya will kill jon snow".

There is no evidence that faceless men are brainwashed, only that that they are devotees to a specific discipline.

First assignment? Maybe not. But if she continues down the path of the faceless men, she will cross with one of them eventually. The only two possible candidates would be Sansa or Jon.

The one thing about Arya is that she has been the character who has never stayed in one place for more than a book. She centralizes around one region, then another in the following.

Huh? Why does being a faceless man mean that she'll have to kill jon or sansa? This "inevitability" makes no sense to me. How about some book quotes backing up this theory in any way whatsoever?

 

[Pollux]

First assignment? Maybe not. But if she continues down the path of the faceless men, she will cross with one of them eventually. The only two possible candidates would be Sansa or Jon.

The one thing about Arya is that she has been the character who has never stayed in one place for more than a book. She centralizes around one region, then another in the following.

Of course she's going to cross paths with one of those two, but my problem with these theories is everyone is saying that she's going to try to kill them

 

[scosher]

I always suspected her task would be to off unCat.

 

[Sotha Sil]

As I've said before, just b/c the Faceless Men say they are "no one" doesn't mean they don't remember who they were before they began their training. We have no evidence that the trainee's forget who they are.

Exactly. And I don't see Arya killing a Stark even if she was ordered to. "All men must serve? Well I'm no man!"

 

[LegendofJoe]

I disagree with the belief that Arya will have to kill one of her siblings to complete her training as well. It seems to me that everyone is forgetting about her uncompleted list. Which consists of: Cersei, Gregor Clegane (undead), Raff the Sweetling, Illyn Payne, Dunsen, and Ser Meryn Trant. And of these the most likely target in my opinion will be the queen bitch herself due to her refusal to pay back the Iron Bank's loans.

 

[LetsGoKiting]

I disagree with the belief that Arya will have to kill one of her siblings to complete her training as well. It seems to me that everyone is forgetting about her uncompleted list. Which consists of: Cersei, Gregor Clegane (undead), Raff the Sweetling, Illyn Payne, Dunsen, and Ser Meryn Trant. And of these the most likely target in my opinion will be the queen bitch herself due to her refusal to pay back the Iron Bank's loans.

Cersei will probably be killed by Jaime. And those are Arya's targets. I think it'll be a character we know already but has little connection to Arya.

 

[Pokielhl]

Faceless Men don't go after personal grudges from their past lives, the Kindly Man made that clear early on in AFFC. Not that Arya won't kill any of the people on her list, she just won't do it as a Faceless Man (unless she was paid to).

There doesn't seem to be enough time for her to become a full fledged assassin unless GRRM puts a gap after ADWD. She has moved on to the next stage of her training so GRRM must intend for her to continue on the path for a while at least.

 

[Nymerio]

Has the gurm actually said that there will be no timeskip in any way? I know he planned to skip 5 years ahead but that didn't work out, but I can definitly see the story advancing at a faster pace once all the characters have arrived where they need to be. As he has said in one of the introductions, some chapters take place within a day, some during a week and others over the course of a month. It would be really cool if Arya actually gets to complete her training. I also can't see Dany suddenly changing her plans and run off to conquer Westeros. She said herself, she'd need to learn how to rule and the dragons are far to young to be of any serious danger to anyone. Also there's Sansa who I'm sure is in no way ready to play the game. She may be beginning to understand some of the aspects of the game but without Littlefinger she'd be pretty lost.

 

[Basileus777]

ADWD is almost certainly going to set up some immediate action in the next book, especially since GRRM took chapters from ADWD and moved them into the next book. Based on the number of chapters some of the AFFC characters get, I doubt ADWD even advances the timeline all that far beyond where Feast ended. I don't know where a timeskip could be placed.

 

[Lirlond]

ADWD is almost certainly going to set up some immediate action in the next book, especially since GRRM took chapters from ADWD and moved them into the next book. Based on the number of chapters some of the AFFC characters get, I doubt ADWD even advances the timeline all that far beyond where Feast ended. I don't know where a timeskip could be placed.

Possibly close to the end of ADWD? I can imagine a dany chapter opening with some doodad about time passing and the dragons being bigger and dany getting used to ruling her slaver kingdom.

 

[Basileus777]

Possibly close to the end of ADWD? I can imagine a dany chapter opening with some doodad about time passing and the dragons being bigger and dany getting used to ruling her slaver kingdom.

Maybe, but then Martin has to arrange all the other stories into a place where they can sit idle for a few years. He couldn't do that after ASOS, I'm skeptical that he'll be able to do it now. And if ADWD ends in a place where characters are idle, then that's probably not a good sign as far as how much the plot is progressed in the book. If Dany isn't at least on the verge of landing in Westeros at the end of ADWD, we're probably ending up with a 8 or 9 book series that may never get finished.

 

[Pollux]

Maybe, but then Martin has to arrange all the other stories into a place where they can sit idle for a few years. He couldn't do that after ASOS, I'm skeptical that he'll be able to do it now. And if ADWD ends in a place where characters are idle, then that's probably not a good sign as far as how much the plot is progressed in the book. If Dany isn't at least on the verge of landing in Westeros at the end of ADWD, we're probably ending up with a 8 or 9 book series that may never get finished.

If he's going with Jon on the Wall, Dany perfecting leadership, Arya becoming an assassin, Sansa learning the game, Cersei needing AA, and Jaime doing his thing. Bran is training with the three-eyed crow...etc. That's a good spot for a 5-6 year time jump.

At which point, Arya would be around 17 and a fullfledged assassin, Sansa would be at the right age to play the game, Littlefinger would be at the right age to be offed by Sansa. Bran will be in control of his powers, Dany will know wtf is going on and her dragons will be bigger.

A time jump could def. work, and it would benefit the series. IMO

 

[LegendofJoe]

Maybe, but then Martin has to arrange all the other stories into a place where they can sit idle for a few years. He couldn't do that after ASOS, I'm skeptical that he'll be able to do it now. And if ADWD ends in a place where characters are idle, then that's probably not a good sign as far as how much the plot is progressed in the book. If Dany isn't at least on the verge of landing in Westeros at the end of ADWD, we're probably ending up with a 8 or 9 book series that may never get finished.

This is where my thinking lies with regards to the possibility of a 5 year gap as well. At the very least it would necessitate a large portion of book 6 being set aside to explain where/what all the characters are at/doing. This would leave Martin that much less room to tie up all the major plot lines of the series. As a result I would be surprised if Martin is able to pull off a 5 year gap AND complete the series in 7 books. In my opinion it would push the series to 8 books.

 

[Basileus777]

If he's going with Jon on the Wall, Dany perfecting leadership, Arya becoming an assassin, Sansa learning the game, Cersei needing AA, and Jaime doing his thing. Bran is training with the three-eyed crow...etc. That's a good spot for a 5-6 year time jump.

At which point, Arya would be around 17 and a fullfledged assassin, Sansa would be at the right age to play the game, Littlefinger would be at the right age to be offed by Sansa. Bran will be in control of his powers, Dany will know wtf is going on and her dragons will be bigger.

A time jump could def. work, and it would benefit the series. IMO

The things you just said are what everyone thought after A Storm of Swords was published in 2000.

It makes no sense to scrap a 5 year gap because it's not working, struggle for 11 years writing the next two books, and then implement a 5 year gap to cover the exact same situations that where in place after ASOS.

 

[Lirlond]

Maybe, but then Martin has to arrange all the other stories into a place where they can sit idle for a few years. He couldn't do that after ASOS, I'm skeptical that he'll be able to do it now. And if ADWD ends in a place where characters are idle, then that's probably not a good sign as far as how much the plot is progressed in the book. If Dany isn't at least on the verge of landing in Westeros at the end of ADWD, we're probably ending up with a 8 or 9 book series that may never get finished.

I dont mean the last chapter, say 3/4 of the way through, or 4/5 even, and have the rest about setting up the end game

 

[Pollux]

The things you just said are what everyone thought after A Storm of Swords was published in 2000.

It makes no sense to scrap a 5 year gap because it's not working, struggle for 11 years writing the next two books, and then implement a 5 year gap to cover the exact same situations that where in place after ASOS.

Bah, I know. But I think it can still be done. I think he's over thinking things and trying to bring in too many new characters, POV's and other things.

 

[Basileus777]

Bah, I know. But I think it can still be done. I think he's over thinking things and trying to bring in too many new characters, POV's and other things.

I agree. I think he's expanded the scope of the story too much, and it's become too complicated for him to handle, hence the problem with the Meranese Knot. I wonder if he should have stuck with the 5 year gap, maybe the story would have been better served in the long run. I just hope the gap wasn't scrapped so we could get Brienne, and some Ironborn and Dornish side stories....

 

[Red Nightmare]

Sansa: you know, with the way word travels fast in Westeros, you'd think someone would notify King's Landing that Littlefinger's beautiful green eyed bastard just happened to arrive at the Eyrie a few weeks after Joffrey's death. Someone's going to have to figure it out or suspect it at some point.

Sansa is already found out. Ser Shadrich (the Mad Mouse) has made his way into Littlefinger's personal guard. (Read carefully at the end of AFfC.)

Remember the Mad Mouse travelled with Brienne for awhile and was also tracking down Sansa for the bounty. Obviously he was a better detective than Brienne.

It will be interesting how he uses that knowledge. Will he destroy Littlefinger's plans? Or blackmail him?

 

[Pollux]

I agree. I think he's expanded the scope of the story too much, and it's become too complicated for him to handle, hence the problem with the Meranese Knot. I wonder if he should have stuck with the 5 year gap, maybe the story would have been better served in the long run. I just hope the gap wasn't scrapped so we could get Brienne, and some Ironborn and Dornish side stories....

I guarantee you that's exactly why it was scrapped. He should have left it with what he had and gone from there. He's lost control of the story. I'll reserve complete judgement until after ADWD, and if I'm wrong I'll eat crow, but I just think its too much for him to tie together.

A 5 year time jump would have been perfect, but it just won't happen. There is no realistic way a bunch of 8,9 and 15-17 year olds are going to do everything he wants them to do. However if its a magic 16 year old, and then the elder Starks being 18+ and then Dany being almost 20, then it would be more realistic.

 

[elrechazado]

Sansa is already found out. Ser Shadrich (the Mad Mouse) has made his way into Littlefinger's personal guard. (Read carefully at the end of AFfC.)

Remember the Mad Mouse travelled with Brienne for awhile and was also tracking down Sansa for the bounty. Obviously he was a better detective than Brienne.

It will be interesting how he uses that knowledge. Will he destroy Littlefinger's plans? Or blackmail him?

Exactly. Mad Mouse "did you think you were the only one looking?" (not verbatim). Didn't take a rocket surgeon to guess that sansa would go to a few places - one of them being to her aunt at the eyrie.

 

[Pollux]

Exactly. Mad Mouse "did you think you were the only one looking?" (not verbatim). Didn't take a rocket surgeon to guess that sansa would go to a few places - one of them being to her aunt at the eyrie.

I hate Brienne.

 

[elrechazado]

I hate Brienne.

*backhands you in the face with my golden hand*
You are speaking of a highborn lady, ser.

 

[Pokielhl]

A 5 year time jump would have been perfect, but it just won't happen. There is no realistic way a bunch of 8,9 and 15-17 year olds are going to do everything he wants them to do. However if its a magic 16 year old, and then the elder Starks being 18+ and then Dany being almost 20, then it would be more realistic.

Age isn't the real issue, Twyin Lannister caused the extinction of two house when he was around the age of ten. The characters do need time to learn though; Arya, Bran, and Sansa are not Twyin afterall.

And Brienne is Azor Ahai, it is known.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Brienne and the Ironborn characters are the definition of side-stories. I hope all of them are out of the picture by the time we finish reading ADWD. The answer to the question of how to manage too many plot-lines and characters is to kill some of them off. I'm looking squarely at the Greyjoys and Freys here.

 

[Basileus777]

Age isn't the real issue, Twyin Lannister caused the extinction of two house when he was around the age of ten.

He criticized his father's plans to marry his sister to a Frey at the age of 10. He doesn't defeat the Tarbecks and Reynes until years later when he's Lord of Casterly Rock.

 

[CrunchyB]

A 5 year time jump would have been perfect, but it just won't happen. There is no realistic way a bunch of 8,9 and 15-17 year olds are going to do everything he wants them to do.

Quite true. He may try to fast forward a bit though. If I recall correctly, Arya's storyline is about a year ahead of others already. He can keep on doing this. That way it's not a 5-year leap but multiple shorter jumps.

 

[Basileus777]

If I recall correctly, Arya's storyline is about a year ahead of others already.

Really? If that's true, no wonder he's struggling with timeline and continuity issues.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Brienne and the Ironborn characters are the definition of side-stories. I hope all of them are out of the picture by the time we finish reading ADWD. The answer to the question of how to manage too many plot-lines and characters is to kill some of them off. I'm looking squarely at the Greyjoys and Freys here.

Yeah, he needs to start pruning the tree. Not the Starks though, they've suffered enough. The only good Greyjoy is a dead Greyjoy.

 

[Pokielhl]

He criticized his father's plans to marry his sister to a Frey at the age of 10. He doesn't defeat the Tarbecks and Reynes until years later when he's Lord of Casterly Rock.

Oh, I think my point still stands however.