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especially considering how much fucking takes place!
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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That's a good point. It seems we always hear about some lower level Lannisters but never anyone else.
Basileus777
Member
It's just a matter of convenient world building. GRRM didn't want to keep track of a bunch of cousins and off shoot families.
There's a lot of that going on, especially if you think about how little the seasons have affected the world. Make a world with seasons that long, and everything would be different, plant and animal life, civilization, society etc. Yet ASOIAF is pretty much the same except they store food during the long ass summers.
There's a lot of that going on, especially if you think about how little the seasons have affected the world. Make a world with seasons that long, and everything would be different, plant and animal life, civilization, society etc. Yet ASOIAF is pretty much the same except they store food during the long ass summers.
For the Starks I just took it that since Brandon dies without ever marrying, Ned became the last of the Stark line. But at least they've got the North and Winterfell, and they have all those bannermen. Especially those like the Karstarks whom were related to the Starks a long time ago.
But the Baratheons....where did they all go? We know Robert and Ned were fostered at the Eyrie, and they're supposed to be a great house as well, but they don't seem to have any lands nor castles nor bannermen. Stannis held Dragonstone only because he took it during their rebellion, and Renly has Storm's End, but what happened to all their people?
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Maybe all the incestuous aristocratic intermarriage they do makes them infertile?
It's in part to convenient world building, but it's also because they die all the time.
Due to no advanced medicine the kids are often stillborn (look at Stannis) or die in infancy (e.g. Balon, out of 8 of his brothers only 3 survived past infancy). Additionally constant wars, where countless heirs are struck down (again, Balon, but this time his sons). And of course those who become septons, maesters, or take the black.
Or even look at House Stark. Out of four of Lord Rickard's children only one had heirs. Now, maybe the whole world believes Starks to be extinguished, but we know it's far from truth so it's not that easy to kill off a noble house.
Finally, there is one case where GRRM bothers to lay out a complicated story of who is the actually heir to the seat ("Harry the Heir"). Besides, what would be the point of finding actual heir to the North or Stormlands if Boltons/Lannisters would swiftly get rid of him anyway.
Due to no advanced medicine the kids are often stillborn (look at Stannis) or die in infancy (e.g. Balon, out of 8 of his brothers only 3 survived past infancy). Additionally constant wars, where countless heirs are struck down (again, Balon, but this time his sons). And of course those who become septons, maesters, or take the black.
Or even look at House Stark. Out of four of Lord Rickard's children only one had heirs. Now, maybe the whole world believes Starks to be extinguished, but we know it's far from truth so it's not that easy to kill off a noble house.
Finally, there is one case where GRRM bothers to lay out a complicated story of who is the actually heir to the seat ("Harry the Heir"). Besides, what would be the point of finding actual heir to the North or Stormlands if Boltons/Lannisters would swiftly get rid of him anyway.
Basileus777
Member
Some of these houses have been around for thousands of years. Over that absurd time scale, even this wouldn't be able to prevent a huge number of off-shoots from forming. Hell, even in our medieval world it's what happened, and the time span it occurred over was nothing compared to ASOIAF.
Some, yeah. Why no Stark heir had risen is weird, but again, I'd believe they'd be soon crushed by Boltons. And most of them had probably been lost or spun off to completely other houses a'la Karstark.
House Baratheon is a relatively new house though, as it's barely 300 years old and had great ties to Targaryen which themselves are in disfavor.
I´ve been playing Crusader Kings 2 recently and it´s amazing how it simulates how medieval Europe´s houses, small and large, interconnected and spun off in a web of successors.
A single line of succession could spun hundreds... thousands of relatives with blood claims to titles.
So in the much larger time frame of the books, House Stark for example would have populated half a continent with cousins and relatives with varying legitimacy to succeed Rob.
I think GRRM´s take of a large succession based conflict is pretty simplistic, but it´s for the best.
arglebargle
Member
i dont know about relatives, but the seat was storm's end.
LegendofJoe
Member
I think it is also possible that the Stark name can only be taken by those born to the main line of the succession; or in other words only the children of the heir/lord of Winterfell can take the Stark name. So in this scenario if Bran became Lord of Winterfell (and was able to reproduce) Rickon's children would not take the Stark name. However, if Bran was unable to reproduce then Rickon's oldest son would assume the Stark name due to being the first male born off the line of main succession.
Edit: also, this method of family succession could be used to build stronger marriage alliances. Non-heir mainline Stark sons could be married to families that lack a male heir, but do have a female heir. An example would be Rickon marrying a Mormont and his children taking her last name as the eventual heirs to Bear Island.
Edit: also, this method of family succession could be used to build stronger marriage alliances. Non-heir mainline Stark sons could be married to families that lack a male heir, but do have a female heir. An example would be Rickon marrying a Mormont and his children taking her last name as the eventual heirs to Bear Island.
Except Shireen Baratheon had the name even before the War of the 5 Kings, despite not being a heir in the main line..
LegendofJoe
Member
I was referring to the Starks in my post, but as you pointed out this scenario is not the case with the Baratheons. But seing how Westeros is a predominantly patrilineal society I don't think giving a second son's daughters the name of the ruling family would create succession rivalries because the daughter would not pass on that name after she marries.
I don't think it was "Jaime" that she managed to say as someone else said...The word would have to be something to get the attention of zombie-Cat: "Arya".
The hanging wasn't far removed from her visit to the monks who tell her that Arya was alive. (Am I remembering that right?).
There is a difference though...The wights don't seem to do much thinking. They kill and kill and not much else. The fire "zombies" seem to maintain a bit of their humanity...Cat may be crazy but her mind snapped at the RW while she still lived...She saw ravens ripping her eyes out even though it was herself doing it.
Dondarian seemed to be honorable and just through several reincarnations. But yeah, I wonder too where this will go...
Isn´t cold hands a wight? He´s pretty much in full control of himself and not a mindless killing machine.
Is he? I had assumed that he was "something else" as he clearly doesn't act like the other wights and even fights them. I thought he was a cross-breed of some kind born by the children of the forest...
No, in a ADWD a children of the forest says that Coldhands has been dead for long time.
Yes but I don't know if that precludes that they may have had a hand (get it?
).In any case, my point stands...Coldhands is not like the wights...he is different. Perhaps he is one of "The Others"? Defected? Perhaps they have cognitive skills.
Marwyn mentioned that Valyrian magic worked through blood or fire. Why not have Westerosi be ice? Or hell, have like 3 aspects of magic, with blood being "neutral" if you will, since we see a first (wo)man through Bran's eyes sacrifice someone to the heart tree with blood.
I think the Others are truly the ones who bought magic back into the world and not the dragons, as popular consensus suggests.
I think the Others are truly the ones who bought magic back into the world and not the dragons, as popular consensus suggests.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Hmm. They DO show up first... the Others at the beginning of the first book, and the dragons at the end of it.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Yes but I don't know if that precludes that they may have had a hand (get it?
In any case, my point stands...Coldhands is not like the wights...he is different. Perhaps he is one of "The Others"? Defected? Perhaps they have cognitive skills.
Could just be an old greenseer who's warging a walker.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
I guess Robert could have made his line of succession more interesting if he just legitimized all of his bastards on his death bed. He certainly had enough of them.
BertramCooper
Banned
Ned seemed pretty dead set on giving the throne to Stannis, if I remember correctly.
Aside from a few isolated cases, like Orys Baratheon and Ramsay Bolton, bastards pretty much never ascend to any positions of power. So I doubt Ned harbored any hopes of naming Gendry king.
I don't recall him ever believing Gendry would be a successor. Simply that that even Gendry had more claim to the thrown than Joff, but natural order would say his true brother would have claim since he didn't have true born sons. Gendry would only come into succession if Stannis were dead, I believe.
bengraven
Member
Right, like we said, they kind of combined them.
Decided to go ahead and order the first 4 books from Amazon. They shipped yesterday from a warehouse about an hour away. And were promptly delivered to a processing facility 2 states away and are now on their way back . Was hoping to dive into them today, but I guess that won't be happening.
. Was hoping to dive into them today, but I guess that won't be happening.PhoenixDark
Banned
Yes but I don't know if that precludes that they may have had a hand (get it?
In any case, my point stands...Coldhands is not like the wights...he is different. Perhaps he is one of "The Others"? Defected? Perhaps they have cognitive skills.
The ones in the GoT prologue did. They were laughing as they killed Royce, and Martin has said they aren't simply pure evil/bad.
StriKeVillain
Banned
Decided to go ahead and order the first 4 books from Amazon. They shipped yesterday from a warehouse about an hour away. And were promptly delivered to a processing facility 2 states away and are now on their way back
But you've read them before, right? ...right?
Otherwise, you should not be in this thread. Something's going to be ruined for you.
But you've read them before, right? ...right?
Otherwise, you should not be in this thread. Something's going to be ruined for you.
I haven't read anything in here, I've had various plot threads spoiler already from friends and the show threads though. Figured I'd pick them up before I'm completely spoiled!
Cornballer
Member
The "OK nerds, you win. Song of Ice and Fire is gud." thread has tagged spoilers if you want to discuss the books in a safer situation as you work your way through.
Ah, alright thanks!
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
don't use that thread. unmarked implied spoilers up the whazoo.
Cornballer
Member
The Quentyn plotline is pretty huge actually. With Quentyn dead there is no way that the Martells will side with Daenerys; Doran might even turn against her. I also think the plotline was pretty good, even though he died. It was about a young boy thinking he could become a hero easily, but it really backfired when he got too brave. But the relationship between the Martells and Daenerys is the major thing here. We still haven't seen the whole aftermath either. It might serve as a wake-up call for Daenerys to finally get her ass away from Essos.
PhoenixDark
Banned
The fighting will start, Catelyn will be killed by Roose Bolton before Robb can save her. Robb and Talisa (who attends the wedding) manage to escape into a small room as his men attempt to save him, but they decide to end their own lives instead of being killed by the Freys.
screen fades to black as they whisper "I love you"
TheGoldenGunman
Member
I guess I'll have to agree to disagree! Other than freeing two of Dany's Dragon's, I feel that the Quentyn Martell storyline offered very little and just served as yet more filler in an already very large tome. Your point about Dorne not siding with Dany is valid, and probably explains why in the Arianne preview for TWOW she is sent to find the new Aegon. However, I just felt that Quentyn's entire purpose in terms of driving the plot forward could have been done without having to introduce yet another POV to the series.
Personally, Areo, Arianne, Quentyn and Asha have failed to stir my interest. There are already so many interesting characters and plotlines in ASOIAF that I'm really not sure why there was the need to introduce so many more. I still love the series, but like many, I feel that there has been a drop-off in quality starting from AFFC onwards.
That said, Victarion, Jon Connington and Barristan Selmy have really grown on me. Selmy in particular is a real favourite of mine after ADWD.
I´m imagining the collective "WTF was that" from the community if that happened.
I fully expect to see Robb with a wolf´s head sowed on... or not.
Judging from all the bullshit they did this season, that might actually happen.
Haha! Someone is bitter about the adaptation this season!
No, from the very beginning, D&D have been looking forward to filming the Red Wedding. I don't think they will change it much, as it seems to me they really like it as it is.
Cornballer
Member
Heh, the non-book readers thread is pretty entertaining right now with them trying to suss out who ordered the hit on Bran.
I also find this google suggestion list pretty funny:
I also find this google suggestion list pretty funny:
Heh, the non-book readers thread is pretty entertaining right now with them trying to suss out who ordered the hit on Bran.
I also find this google suggestion list pretty funny:
Had to look up who Dan Scott is after seeing this.
Turns out he's the star of one my favorite moments ever to be highlighted on The Soup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzPDEirVTZk
pulga
Banned
Heh, the non-book readers thread is pretty entertaining right now with them trying to suss out who ordered the hit on Bran.
I also find this google suggestion list pretty funny:
Why are they going over that?
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Whatever they do, the title for the Red Wedding episode NEEDS to be titled "The Rains of Castamere."
I just hope they don't end up telegraphing that its going to be a bloodbath. One of my non book reader friends, as soon as Robb went to town with Talisa just said "Frey is going to be pissed." Even when I read the books I had had the RW spoiled before hand so I knew Robb and Cat died but not the specifics, so I was reading that chapter in suspense, thinking maybe there is another wedding they have to go to?
At least my memory of reading it is that it goes along without a hitch for a while, with Cat being relieved once they've had bread and salt, only for the actual shit to hit the fan when the main dining room has kind of cleared out a little bit.
The way its written is so memorable though since there is that point where Cat knows something isn't right when everyone starts leaving and the one Frey gets all testy towards Dacey Mormont. I really hope the show keeps it mostly from Cat's point of view, since thats what made it so memorable.
I mean, damn:
The RW works on a lot of levels though too, cause it kind of trolls you into thinking you'll have one big Stark family reunion with Arya too, only for that to go to hell in a handbasket.
I just hope they don't end up telegraphing that its going to be a bloodbath. One of my non book reader friends, as soon as Robb went to town with Talisa just said "Frey is going to be pissed." Even when I read the books I had had the RW spoiled before hand so I knew Robb and Cat died but not the specifics, so I was reading that chapter in suspense, thinking maybe there is another wedding they have to go to?
At least my memory of reading it is that it goes along without a hitch for a while, with Cat being relieved once they've had bread and salt, only for the actual shit to hit the fan when the main dining room has kind of cleared out a little bit.
The way its written is so memorable though since there is that point where Cat knows something isn't right when everyone starts leaving and the one Frey gets all testy towards Dacey Mormont. I really hope the show keeps it mostly from Cat's point of view, since thats what made it so memorable.
I mean, damn:
The RW works on a lot of levels though too, cause it kind of trolls you into thinking you'll have one big Stark family reunion with Arya too, only for that to go to hell in a handbasket.
Cornballer
Member
Random question: Does Jaime's speech to Alton about squiring for Barristan in the tv show appear in the books anywhere?
I don't know, someone brought it up and they started discussing it.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I don't believe so.
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